15/03/2016 Daily Politics


15/03/2016

Jo Coburn with the latest political news from Westminster. Guests include Ukip MEP Steven Woolfe, shadow home secretary Andy Burnham and Green Party MP Caroline Lucas.


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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:35.:00:41.

Theresa May's plans for greater surveillance powers are back

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Labour say want substantial changes to the Bill.

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The shadow home secretary Andy Burnham joins us live.

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There are just 100 days until polling day in the EU

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Referendum and today sees the Confederation

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Of British Industry throw its weight behind the campaign to remain.

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We'll hear from the CBI's head honcho, Carolyn Fairbairn.

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The Green Party have also launched their own campaign to keep

:01:09.:01:10.

Britain in the EU, saying they're 'loud and proud' about their support

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And if you thought delivering the Chancellor's Budget speech

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was tricky enough, spare a thought for the leader of the opposition -

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We'll discuss how to prep for the big day.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, Ukip's immigration and financial

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Ahead of tomorrow's budget, George Osborne has been busy this

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morning, bigging up government investment in new infrastructure

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Here's the Chancellor speaking in central lobby -

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suited up in the obligatory high-vis jacket.

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Five years ago as part of our long-term economic plan

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we gave the go-ahead to Crossrail and here it is nearing completion.

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In the Budget tomorrow, I'm giving the green light

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to Crossrail 2 in London and the new High-speed 3 link

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across the North of England and in the Budget we will not go

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for short-term fixes in this uncertain world,

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we're going to have long-term solutions to Britain's long-term

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problems and the Budget is going to make sure Britain is fit

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That was Central London he was speaking in, not the central lobby!

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Confused. He has a wardrobe of high visibility jackets, are you excited

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by the announcements? I am intrigued and I will be open-minded about it

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because I come from the North West of England, born in Manchester, and

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some ideas about opening up railways from Manchester to Sheffield and

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Leeds, for me, somebody who loves the countryside, believing there is

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an opportunity to build tunnels underneath the beautiful landscape,

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that can be an option. What I want to look at is the greater detail of

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cost. You are against HS2? Yes, it is a folly which has been proved in

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many ways to be over expensive. But it will open up, to the government,

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vast areas of the countryside. It will do a number of things, it will

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ensure only the wealthiest can use it because it is expensive. It is

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displaced if, it will move people from London to buy houses in the

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north of England so they can commute to work which will have increased

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pressure on housing in northern England and there are relevant

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studies which show you will not get the economic and if it is they

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suggest you do. You look at the equivalence between Lil and Paris

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and we saw big changes on that. -- Lille. Do you think it does help the

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economy despite Nigel Farage saying it is a waste of money and will only

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benefit a small number of people? HS2 has to be taken out of the

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equation and we have looked at expanding or improving their weight

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structures in England. Are you in favour of Crossrail to? We may have

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to consider the argument on that. -- two. I have not seen the

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implications two. I have not seen the

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rail. I want to look at a roadway system which is creaking at the

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seams and has not had a great deal of investment, particularly in the

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North, where you can look at the immediate problem with trains going

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to Sheffield and Leeds, why are we not looking at expanding the

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railway, the trains themselves, the platforms? These can be done

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immediately. I want to look at the immediate impact on costs and review

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the whole idea in the future. The question for today is -

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which TV couple have been discussing their trip to Chequers

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for a dinner with Tony Blair, over which they discussed

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the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction

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with the then prime minister? Was it a) Adrian Chiles

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and Christine Bleakley? Theresa May's plan to grant powers

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to the state to collect the web-browsing histories

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and internet connection records of individuals is back

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in the Commons today. The Investigatory Powers Bill

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is the latest attempt to give the secret services legal backing

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for internet surveillance of anyone suspected of criminal

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or terrorist activity. The issue led to a bust-up

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in the coalition government, with Nick Clegg blocking

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the so-called 'Snoopers' Charter'. Theresa May introduced the bill

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to update legislation for police and security services "to keep pace

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with the modern world" - addressing gaps that degrade

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the government's ability to combat Among the provisions of the Bill

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is the collection and storage by communications companies of 12

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months of everyone's web browsing history, known as internet

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connection records. A statutory framework for the police

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to apply to hack someone's smartphone or computer -

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a so-called equipment interference. And the creation of

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an Investigatory Powers Commission. A senior judge who will oversee

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the use of all investigatory powers supported by a number

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of Judicial Commissioners. Labour say they will put aside party

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politics to work "constructively" with the government

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if the Home Secretary allows lengthy But the SNP and the Liberal

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Democrats will oppose it, Joining me now from central lobby in

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the Palace of Westminster is the Shadow Home Secretary, Andy Burnham.

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Welcome. The Labour Party are going to add Stein today, isn't that

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handing the government a blank cheque? No, it is not. This Bill is

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needed because we have a law which is going to expire later this year

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so these are not normal circumstances. The country needs a

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new law in this area that gives powers to the police but also create

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strong safeguards for the public. That is my challenge to the Lib Dems

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and SNP because if they let the current law for, what will they put

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in its place? Otherwise they leave people at risk of more loss of

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privacy. We are going to work constructively but what I will do is

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set out very clear concerns and I will say to Theresa May that if she

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does not listen to them, we will withdraw support from the timetable

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of this ill because we are not prepared to have a substandard Bill

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on the statute book. How will you do this? You have been called gutless

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by the Lib Dems who are opposing it and you say that you will withdraw

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support further down the line but is that going to do anything to

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persuade Theresa May to change her mind? Yes, as I said before this

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Bill is on a tight timetable so the government needs our support.

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Interesting words from the Liberal Democrats but from my point of view,

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it is irresponsible to say, we are going to go into outright opposition

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because I don't think that is right or in the interests of the country.

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The police and security services need the powers to do the job.

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However, a big however, I will set tough test for the government.

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Internet connection records, I believe at the moment that they are

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far too widely drawn. I believe they should be very strictly limited to

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the domains visited on the Internet, not Urls. It needs to be a much

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tighter set of information. Secondly, the current Dell says that

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the police should access them in respect of any crime, the prevention

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and detection of any crime. I don't think that is acceptable. It is not

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acceptable for police to look at someone's connection record in

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respect of motoring crimes. Only in respect of more serious crimes. What

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will they be? It is very easy to agree with it in principle. You

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think the government has drawn the net to white in terms of the number

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of public bodies which can use the new Lords. -- laws. Where would the

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boundaries be? I don't see why the Food Standards Agency or gambling

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commission would have access to the connection records and I will warn

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the Home Secretary that she should reduce that list before they have

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our support. I want the definition and scope of Internet connection

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records much reduced and I also want a higher threshold for their use. I

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also want a presumption of privacy at the very start of this ilk. It

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needs to be clear that if you are to depart from that and intrude on

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someone's privacy, you must have very strong reasons for doing so. --

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Bill. The current law says that it should be on the grounds of national

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security at present. In the past we have seen the label to cover a

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multitude of sins. I have worked with trade unionist who have been

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investigated by the police for nothing more than going about their

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lawful right to strike so we need to have clarity in the legislation that

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the law cannot be used in that way. -- unionists. Ordinary people cannot

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have their powers taken away from them. People will remember Doreen

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Lawrence, whose family were surveilled after the loss of her son

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and that is fundamentally unacceptable. The Bill must

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completely rule out any possibility of the misuse of these powers. Why

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do you not just oppose the Bill? That is a massive shopping list of

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changes you want to stop surely your leverage in negotiating would have

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been heightened if you had said we are not going to support the Bill

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unless you make changes? Outright opposition just drags the whole

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thing right down. As I said, the country needs a Bill on the statute

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book by the end of the year because the interim legislation is about to

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expire. It would be irresponsible in my view to let the legislation fall

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without anything in its place. I have spoken to people in the police

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force who say the world is going dark on them, they cannot see

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communications in the way they used to to. Conversations are in online

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forums rather than traditional telephones and they are losing the

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ability to disrupt terrorist. That is not acceptable and I think the

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SNP and Liberal Democrats are wrong to turn away from these issues. We

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are trying to find a reasonable way through. My prices play, there is no

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blank cheque. On the six areas outlined in the Commons, I want to

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see significant movement from the government on all of them and we do

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not see it, I will withdraw support from the timetable on this Bill. The

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Labour Party have suspended for a second time a member posted

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anti-Semitic tweet. A spokesperson has said Vicki Kirby has been

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suspended from the Labour Party pending investigation. Is the Labour

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Party dealing with these sorts of incidents quickly enough? Well, we

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have today and I am glad to hear that because from what I have seen,

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the comments were completely abhorrent. Labour has always led

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from the forefront in tackling anti-Semitism, and I am glad to hear

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that this action has been taken today, and to be honest, for a party

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that believes in true equality and has always fought racism and

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xenophobia of all kinds, we have to maintain full public confidence in

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our procedures and I want there to be no question at all that our party

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has no tolerance at all of any form of anti-Semitism, is phobia or any

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other kind of racism. What is your position on the Investigatory Powers

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Bill? I am deeply concerned by it because if you listen to Big Brother

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What you have analysed this, they say the danger is that this could go

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into the extreme of any democratic country. -- Big Brother Watch. The

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average unity to catch -- the opportunity to catch criminals

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causes a great deal of concern. 95% of people are not involved in any

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criminality and yet all of them are going to be brought within this. As

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Andrew has said, he does not seem to be putting a very strong case

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towards the government by, as you pointed out, just abstaining on

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this. Would it be irresponsible to let the whole Bill fall and take the

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legislation with it? This goes to the argument of opposition. You

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stand on a principle that you want to stand on and say you want to

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protect the interest of people, and therefore withdrawing the timetable

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is the way forward. I think he should be joining in terms of the

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Lib Dems. And opposing the government? To ensure that the

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combined elements of strength brings in the changes he wants. That is

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typical that we have seen the Labour Party of late, they want their cake

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and eating it. Which specific bets would you like to see changed

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dramatically? You say that the net would be too wide and trying to many

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bits of private data, what about leaving the country without any sort

:15:36.:15:40.

of surveillance powers? He is suggesting they would not have any

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position to be able to protect people, but we've got a vast web of

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legislation that the police can use. What I would look at, for example,

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when considering individuals using the web, why can councils and other

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organisations have the same access? We had similar problems with local

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council getting expanded powers, that has caused huge problems with

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ordinary members of the public. We are joined by Victoria Atkins, who

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has been sitting on the joint Parliamentary committee scrutinising

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the plans. Why do you think so many people are opposed to this Bill?

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Many people are not opposed to this Bill. Most people recognise the need

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to have an act that looks after national security, gives the police

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and security services the powers they need but protects civil

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liberties. People clearly feel it does not make that balance. Both our

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guest said it is an acceptably intrusive. You will be able to sweep

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records of every individual and hold them for a year. Andy, on the 4th of

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November, when the draft Bill was introduced, praised the Home

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Secretary for getting the balance broadly right having listened to

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legitimate concerns. But this Bill is absolutely critical. We cannot be

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under any illusions. The criminal world is using the Internet, just as

:17:27.:17:30.

we do. We need to make sure the police and security services have

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the powers they need. What is there to make sure the powers are not

:17:36.:17:41.

exploited? There have been cases when councils have used the powers

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to spy on people. There was a great deal of upset about that and the

:17:49.:17:51.

powers of the council were restricted. But in this bill we

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have, for the first time, all of the powers connected together in one

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place and we've got a real world leading oversight. Why is it world

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reading? The senior judge will be appointed by the Prime Minister and

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only set for three years. That does not show great independence. We had

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form the Lord -- we heard from the former Lord Chief Justice, that

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shows the robust independence of the judiciary. We have real oversight

:18:28.:18:32.

with judicial commissioners who will be working with secretaries of

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state. They will be reviewing the oversight provisions as a whole. The

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investigatory Powers Tribunal will be very much overseeing the work of

:18:42.:18:47.

the security services and the police. But how is bulk interception

:18:48.:18:54.

and hacking going to help fight terrorism? We got briefings from

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GCHQ and others who use these powers. The difficulty of these

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powers is by definition there is a limit to what the security services

:19:08.:19:10.

can say about the use of these powers because if they tell us

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everything then the criminals will change their methods accordingly.

:19:14.:19:19.

But what they have done is produce an explanatory note, try to give

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Case studies of how these powers work, and I'm in no doubt, having

:19:26.:19:32.

seen some of this evidence myself, that these powers are necessary,

:19:33.:19:38.

just and proportionate. Those are the themes that run throughout this

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Bill, I know that Andy was talking earlier about council officials

:19:43.:19:47.

being able to access data. Any accessing the data will need to fit

:19:48.:19:55.

with the law, which will be that it is necessary, just and

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proportionate. That sort of wording is very vague and it does lack

:20:00.:20:04.

clarity on when, where and in what circumstances these powers can be

:20:05.:20:08.

used. You can see there is plenty of room for abuse. I don't accept that,

:20:09.:20:18.

if we look at communications data, in the past it has been accessing

:20:19.:20:23.

mobile phone records to see who called when and why. That data is

:20:24.:20:29.

absolutely critical in 95% of organised crime cases. It is used in

:20:30.:20:36.

100% of counterterrorism cases. We have to be realistic. The criminal

:20:37.:20:44.

world has moved on into the digital age. We did ask a Home Office

:20:45.:20:52.

minister to come onto the programme but none was available. There are 90

:20:53.:20:55.

days until the EU referendum. This morning the former shadow

:20:56.:21:01.

business secretary, Labour's Chuka Umunna,

:21:02.:21:03.

phoned-in to Boris Johnson's radio show on LBC, to take him to task

:21:04.:21:05.

about his motivations I look at those who are campaigning

:21:06.:21:07.

for us to come out, look at Michael Gove, I disagree

:21:08.:21:13.

with Michael on a huge amount, but he is

:21:14.:21:15.

a man of conviction. You brought a circus to your house

:21:16.:21:17.

to make the announcement... Instead of campaigning with Michael,

:21:18.:21:25.

Iain Duncan Smith and others and what you need to understand,

:21:26.:21:31.

this isn't about you, This is about the prospects

:21:32.:21:33.

of the British people and their democracy and I have

:21:34.:21:42.

to say that it is very sad that we are being invited

:21:43.:21:47.

to continue to remain in a system that I think is less

:21:48.:21:51.

and less democratic. We have a huge opportunity now

:21:52.:21:54.

to strike out for freedom and all you hear from the remaining

:21:55.:22:00.

campaign is gloom and negativity This morning the body

:22:01.:22:03.

which represents thousands of British businesses -the CBI -

:22:04.:22:08.

threw its weight behind And the CBI's director general,

:22:09.:22:11.

Carolyn Fairbairn, joins me now. You gave an interview where you back

:22:12.:22:26.

to Britain remaining in a reformed EU but today we find out you won't

:22:27.:22:31.

be officially aligning so will not be able to campaign. Why the change

:22:32.:22:36.

of heart? We have a very clear mandate from our members. We've been

:22:37.:22:41.

consulting and serving and we know that our members employ 7 million

:22:42.:22:47.

people across the UK. They've given us a resounding voice that 80%

:22:48.:22:53.

support remaining in the EU. However, we don't think economics is

:22:54.:23:01.

the only issue, we think there are broader issues and we are going to

:23:02.:23:04.

be making the economic case on their behalf. 80% of your members have

:23:05.:23:11.

backed staying in. Would it be seen as fence sitting if you don't

:23:12.:23:15.

officially align yourself to campaign? I really don't think so.

:23:16.:23:19.

We are not a political organisation and we never have been but we are

:23:20.:23:24.

very strong in the voice we have for prosperity, growth, employment, and

:23:25.:23:29.

the general health of the economy. That is the voice we want to have.

:23:30.:23:35.

It will be about informing the debate so people understand the

:23:36.:23:38.

implication for jobs and growth and the future of the economy. But you

:23:39.:23:44.

won't be allowed to spend more than ?10,000 during the six weeks, you

:23:45.:23:48.

will be limited in outlining the arguments you want to present. If

:23:49.:23:54.

it's so important, why are you sitting on your hands? Between now

:23:55.:23:58.

and April the we can do whatever we like, and we will be making the case

:23:59.:24:05.

strongly. -- April 15. And not after that? It is worth thinking about

:24:06.:24:12.

what we do, we speak out, talk on platforms, we write. We can continue

:24:13.:24:16.

to do those things. We've been in discussion with the Electoral

:24:17.:24:20.

Commission about how we can do that. The important thing is we have a

:24:21.:24:23.

resounding voice from our members in terms of staying in the European

:24:24.:24:29.

Union. Were you scarred by your experience in the Scottish

:24:30.:24:32.

independence referendum? This is about making a case that is the case

:24:33.:24:40.

that our members would like to make around prosperity and growth, not

:24:41.:24:44.

about making a political statement. The position we had is an extremely

:24:45.:24:49.

clear and simple one. Are you breathing a sigh of relief that a

:24:50.:24:56.

powerful organisation are not going to align themselves? Not

:24:57.:25:02.

necessarily, when I was a junior barrister we had to prepare cases on

:25:03.:25:06.

expert witnesses and when you had an expert witness you needed to have an

:25:07.:25:09.

expert that was generally right on the issues. When you look at the

:25:10.:25:17.

CBI, they were wrong on the Euro, and 100 years ago they were wrong on

:25:18.:25:21.

the gold standard. If I was presenting them as a case before a

:25:22.:25:25.

judge they would throughout the fact that on almost every major political

:25:26.:25:28.

issue which they've espoused the view, they've been wrong. One other

:25:29.:25:33.

point. They would be asked whether they have a conflict-of-interest in

:25:34.:25:37.

this case. It is right and I'm sure that Carolyn would say it, they have

:25:38.:25:41.

received over ?800,000 from the European Union, whether through

:25:42.:25:44.

research or other ways, that would be regarded as a conflict of

:25:45.:25:49.

interest. I think the British public will say, they were wrong before and

:25:50.:25:59.

will be wrong now. On the issue of conflicts of interests, there are

:26:00.:26:04.

absolutely none. We provide a commercial service to a small part

:26:05.:26:08.

of the European Union, less than 0.5% of our revenue. It is a

:26:09.:26:16.

ludicrous claim. In terms of the position, the euro was a very

:26:17.:26:22.

different question. What we are facing is an issue, we have enjoyed

:26:23.:26:28.

a period of real prosperity as part of the European Union and what many

:26:29.:26:34.

businesses up and down the land are saying is they can prosper within

:26:35.:26:38.

the European Union. They want to reform it further but they can

:26:39.:26:42.

prosper. The prospect of uncertainty that will come from triggering

:26:43.:26:45.

Article 50 and not knowing the alternative... You say this is a

:26:46.:26:51.

different case but the arguments you are using are identical. You're

:26:52.:26:58.

using the fear mongering. You say that Britain will fall into a mire

:26:59.:27:01.

and never be successful in the future. You say that business will

:27:02.:27:06.

not be able to trade with the EU that we will have no access to these

:27:07.:27:11.

markets. First of all, the free trade element which only Belarus and

:27:12.:27:19.

Russia are not part of. Will we be excluded from Turkey and Iceland?

:27:20.:27:24.

Then you have a single regulatory regime, which we have very little

:27:25.:27:31.

influence over. Those arguments are identical, they have been

:27:32.:27:37.

replicated. I don't accept that. What the European Union gives at the

:27:38.:27:41.

moment is a guarantee of tariff free access to 500 million consumers. The

:27:42.:27:46.

moment article 50 is triggered, that guarantee is lost. We cannot go

:27:47.:27:53.

back. For two years, we are OK. When you say the CBI have been wrong,

:27:54.:27:57.

what about the figures looking at the views of business? People always

:27:58.:28:06.

say small businesses support leaving but the figures are quite damning.

:28:07.:28:12.

Just 6% of firms in the CBI think leaving the EU would be in the best

:28:13.:28:17.

interest of the economy. Why do so few businesses back this? I've seen

:28:18.:28:24.

quite a few that support leaving the European Union but looking at the

:28:25.:28:29.

analysis is quite interesting. Over 95% of the businesses in the UK are

:28:30.:28:32.

less than 50 people but if you look at 73% of this poll, they consist of

:28:33.:28:40.

businesses over 250 people, which is 0.1%. Why do they not back the exit?

:28:41.:28:46.

It comes down to the arguments they hear from government affairs

:28:47.:28:50.

officials, lobbyists, who keep telling them, as I kept hearing,

:28:51.:28:53.

that these companies will not be able to trade, we would have tariffs

:28:54.:28:58.

imposed upon us, when none of this is the case. I saw it before as a

:28:59.:29:04.

lawyer advising companies. I was often in conflict to those lobbyists

:29:05.:29:12.

who have financial interest. They deal with the regulations that

:29:13.:29:17.

compounded the cost. Does your poll fairly reflect the businesses in the

:29:18.:29:26.

UK? Absolutely. What you will see, not one single business survey of

:29:27.:29:34.

any size of business, even the FSB survey, has a majority in favour of

:29:35.:29:38.

leaving. You've never explained how you have any influence. Are you

:29:39.:29:47.

saying small businesses under 50 people, of which there are hundreds

:29:48.:29:52.

of thousands, are overwhelmingly in favour of staying in the EU? Yellow

:29:53.:29:56.

might not one survey has shown a majority. There are many businesses

:29:57.:30:03.

that are global and immediately want to trade and have access to the

:30:04.:30:07.

single market. We are talking about a small business environment where

:30:08.:30:12.

many of them value that tariff. When I was a private equity lawyer,

:30:13.:30:19.

someone wanted to invest in housing in Poland and it did not stop them.

:30:20.:30:23.

Trade was still going on even though they were not in a common market.

:30:24.:30:28.

When I was looking at small Internet businesses, exactly the same. Trade

:30:29.:30:32.

continues irrespective of the countries. You are concerned about

:30:33.:30:37.

whether there would be tariff, which I argue there would be none, and the

:30:38.:30:39.

regulations. Now, the campaign over

:30:40.:30:42.

whether the UK should stay in or quit the European Union

:30:43.:30:44.

is already a pretty crowded, and occasionally complicated field,

:30:45.:30:46.

with numerous groups forming ahead of the referendum on

:30:47.:30:49.

Britain's EU membership. out its campaign to keep

:30:50.:30:56.

Britain in the EU. Here's what party leader

:30:57.:30:58.

Natalie Bennett had to say I think probably many people in this

:30:59.:31:00.

room have been at and will be I think this one will sound and look

:31:01.:31:06.

a lot different to a lot I am proud to be on an

:31:07.:31:12.

all-women panel talking I am proud to be on a panel

:31:13.:31:17.

where we talk positively The fact is that what the EU

:31:18.:31:21.

is about is what the Green Party Internationalism, thinking

:31:22.:31:25.

for the long-term, collaborating rather than focusing

:31:26.:31:29.

on competition, working together And we've been joined

:31:30.:31:30.

by the Green MP Caroline Lucas. What is the case for staying in the

:31:31.:31:52.

EU? It is essentially that we believe we have a better chance of

:31:53.:31:55.

tackling the major challenges we face day, whether it be climate

:31:56.:32:00.

change, the refugee crisis or terrorism, by working with others

:32:01.:32:05.

rather than walking away from that, and what the Green Party can bring

:32:06.:32:08.

to this debate is a different tone and issues. You heard just now that

:32:09.:32:16.

the debate is dominated by jobs and the economy, and that is incredibly

:32:17.:32:19.

important and important it gets out there but there are other ways of

:32:20.:32:23.

mobilising people, reaching out to young people in particular, you may

:32:24.:32:28.

not be particularly exercised by those issues but are worried about

:32:29.:32:31.

the environment and social rights and I think the Green Party can run

:32:32.:32:35.

a strong campaign, Bloom entry to the main campaign but reaching out

:32:36.:32:40.

to different kinds of people. -- but, elementary. Last year, Jenny

:32:41.:32:50.

Jones wrote that Green support for the EU should end and the EU stands

:32:51.:32:56.

for corporate empowerment and the trampling of Greek democracy, is she

:32:57.:33:02.

wrong? I do think she is wrong. Do you support the transplanted

:33:03.:33:07.

investment partnership? No, I do not, I oppose it but you have to

:33:08.:33:10.

make a distinction between the right wing governments that inhabit most

:33:11.:33:15.

of the seats around the council table and the European institutions.

:33:16.:33:21.

One of the biggest cheerleaders for TTIP is David Cameron. Anybody who

:33:22.:33:25.

thinks that by withdrawing from the EU, we will have a cuddly trade

:33:26.:33:28.

policy, they live in fantasyland and David Cameron will put the same

:33:29.:33:34.

principles of TTIP into bilateral trade agreements. The best way of

:33:35.:33:38.

fighting TTIP is to work with our colleagues in Germany, 255 thousand

:33:39.:33:42.

who were in Berlin recently mobilising against TTIP, it is by

:33:43.:33:45.

lobbying against members of Parliament to have the power to stop

:33:46.:33:51.

TTIP, and the people who signed a petition across Europe to stop TTIP.

:33:52.:34:00.

We should recognise that by putting right wing policies into Europe, you

:34:01.:34:04.

get right wing policies out. You need to make a distinction between

:34:05.:34:07.

the right-wing governments around the table and the importance of

:34:08.:34:12.

working at the EU level. You are supporting staying in the EU because

:34:13.:34:17.

you don't like the policies of David Cameron. I did not say that. That is

:34:18.:34:23.

the logic of your argument. If Jenny Jones is indulging in fantasy

:34:24.:34:27.

politics, issue not right about the contradiction between Green

:34:28.:34:30.

opposition to TTIP and yet its continued support for the EU? You

:34:31.:34:35.

won't be able to counter what is going on in the EU by staying in

:34:36.:34:39.

stock I object to all sorts of thing that the government is doing but I'm

:34:40.:34:44.

not saying we should turn our back on democracy. I am a democratic. I

:34:45.:34:51.

will fight that. The question about the referendum is, do we think we

:34:52.:34:55.

will be safer, greener, safer, longer if we stay in the EU or come

:34:56.:35:00.

away and all the evidence suggests we have a better chance of a better

:35:01.:35:03.

outcome for our kids and their kids if we stay in the EU rather than one

:35:04.:35:08.

thing we can fight the battles by being on R.N.. The party's policies

:35:09.:35:14.

are against so many things in the EU. They are not happy with the

:35:15.:35:18.

single market. You sort of thing, what is there left to support but

:35:19.:35:25.

Mark... By being in the EU. It is beyond conception that we would be

:35:26.:35:30.

better off dealing with issues like climate change is a single country.

:35:31.:35:34.

The reason the outcome of the Paris climate talks was better than many

:35:35.:35:38.

feared was because the EU was working as a block and had so much

:35:39.:35:42.

more leverage and was able to ensure that of the new countries in the EU

:35:43.:35:47.

had more ambitious targets. That as a positive campaign, and that is the

:35:48.:35:54.

difference between the Green campaign and some of the other

:35:55.:36:01.

remain campaigns. Caroline's position, looking at the environment

:36:02.:36:07.

and green issues, is very important. And works better by staying in the

:36:08.:36:12.

EU. She takes that view because she says you need to work together with

:36:13.:36:16.

people and other countries and organisations but I take an opposite

:36:17.:36:22.

view to that. It is one of democracy and I don't believe the EU is a

:36:23.:36:26.

democratic organisation, I think it is anti-democratic and it has shown

:36:27.:36:29.

that in its history in the way it treated Ireland and Holland and

:36:30.:36:32.

France and the way it treats Greece in terms of its austerity. The

:36:33.:36:37.

structure and nature in which the commission controls everything,

:36:38.:36:39.

creates everything working in secret, means it is an

:36:40.:36:45.

anti-democratic organisation. As Andrew Huxley put in his book, a

:36:46.:36:52.

brave New World. Would Greece have had a better chance outside of the

:36:53.:36:57.

EU? Would it have been better for the treatment of people there, not

:36:58.:37:03.

being part of this construct? Let me make a distinction between being a

:37:04.:37:06.

member of the EU and the single currency. The Green Party have never

:37:07.:37:11.

supported the week and the way in which the Greeks were treated was

:37:12.:37:14.

wrong but I think it is interesting that even the party in power at the

:37:15.:37:20.

time is not arguing that we should come out of the EU, they clearly see

:37:21.:37:23.

that their future is working with others in the EU to reform it. I am

:37:24.:37:27.

not saying that the whole of the EU with perfect, I have been a member

:37:28.:37:31.

of the European Parliament and out how cumbersome it can be. -- know

:37:32.:37:38.

how cumbersome. People elected to the British government are elected

:37:39.:37:43.

under a far less fair and proportional voting system than the

:37:44.:37:46.

European Parliament. If we want to stop TTIP is doing gauge with

:37:47.:37:52.

members of the European Parliament. -- is dying engaging. -- is by

:37:53.:38:02.

engaging. The 13% of people unemployed across the EU, the

:38:03.:38:06.

average youth unemployment hits at 13%, the highest levels of suicide

:38:07.:38:11.

sit there in Greece, the EU is a factor and cause of this. If you are

:38:12.:38:15.

talking about is rising governments, the 255,000 in Germany would have

:38:16.:38:19.

more of an impact on a single government than... The EU has been

:38:20.:38:28.

better at giving access to the TTIP governments than the British

:38:29.:38:31.

government. If you want to stop TTIP, you need to get to Parliament

:38:32.:38:35.

about against it, and similarly, other MPs need to vote against it.

:38:36.:38:44.

Talk to your colleagues and get them there as well. Caroline Lucas, thank

:38:45.:38:46.

you. The Prime Minister likes to say

:38:47.:38:48.

he and his party offered the referendum on our membership

:38:49.:38:51.

of the European Union. UKIP like to say he never would have

:38:52.:38:53.

if they hadn't grown so strong. 3.8 million votes at the General

:38:54.:38:56.

election, an MP, and it won If the Referendum is causing

:38:57.:39:00.

internal trouble inside the Conservative and Labour parties,

:39:01.:39:05.

UKIP is no different. Giles has been unpicking the real

:39:06.:39:07.

battles between senior Kippers... they like him, he's very good

:39:08.:39:15.

at media, with people and on stage. But it's always been an insider

:39:16.:39:31.

issue that you don't want to get He still has a great

:39:32.:39:35.

deal of support in UKIP. It's been a long 23 year

:39:36.:39:42.

slog but you know what? Ukip has grown up enough

:39:43.:39:44.

to have proper in-fighting, which is fair to say is the same

:39:45.:39:50.

in many other older parties, I am a man of my word,

:39:51.:39:53.

I don't break my word. ..and three days later

:39:54.:39:58.

changed his mind and winning just one seat in Parliament,

:39:59.:40:01.

with an MP who does not always see eye to eye with the leader,

:40:02.:40:03.

who did not win a seat, there are other big characters

:40:04.:40:06.

in this insurgent party who are learning all the time

:40:07.:40:08.

how to get their way. Four years ago I made this film

:40:09.:40:14.

for the Daily Politics asking whether Ukip was a one-man band,

:40:15.:40:17.

that one man being in Nigel Farage, and the party did not like that

:40:18.:40:20.

sort of question partly They are not any more and that holds

:40:21.:40:23.

the key to why they might be fighting inside

:40:24.:40:28.

the party these days. What Nigel wants Nigel gets used

:40:29.:40:29.

to be the way but it isn't any more and actually, that might be quite

:40:30.:40:33.

a good thing. Nigel Farage had a big influence

:40:34.:40:43.

over the Ukip's NEC, Lots of new members were elected

:40:44.:40:47.

to that last year and there were rumours around

:40:48.:40:51.

at the time that Farage was thinking of abolishing the NEC

:40:52.:40:53.

and having a different kind of governing body which he appointed

:40:54.:40:56.

people to do. As a result the NEC is throwing

:40:57.:41:00.

its weight around a bit more and we saw this with the selection

:41:01.:41:03.

for candidates in A list was put forward which Farage

:41:04.:41:06.

did not like and he came back with his own list for the NEC

:41:07.:41:12.

and the NEC said, right, we will scrap this and go out

:41:13.:41:15.

to members and get a ballot on this. This was the first time that the NEC

:41:16.:41:19.

really pushed back against Nigel and he did not get

:41:20.:41:22.

the results he wanted. He did not want Neil Hamilton top

:41:23.:41:24.

of the list and Neil Hamilton got on the list and now he has

:41:25.:41:27.

a good chance of being elected I am delighted I am the choice

:41:28.:41:30.

of Ukip members in Wales. Whatever Nigel Farage's views are,

:41:31.:41:34.

he did not have a vote in this election process but the ordinary

:41:35.:41:37.

Ukip members in Wales did. Win - they can claim a victory

:41:38.:41:40.

for their 23 year cause. Lose by just by a little,

:41:41.:41:52.

they can scoop up those crushed by the narrow defeat as did

:41:53.:41:55.

the SNP after the indy ref. But it's also providing grit to some

:41:56.:41:58.

of the internal rivalries - party lines blur, and some

:41:59.:42:01.

in the party back different It will get to the point

:42:02.:42:03.

where they are fighting so hard Nigel is not someone who likes this

:42:04.:42:09.

kind of check and balance, he is someone who is sure

:42:10.:42:14.

of himself, he points at his many accomplishments and you can't deny

:42:15.:42:22.

this, he has taken the party from nowhere to winning

:42:23.:42:24.

the European elections, to getting millions of votes

:42:25.:42:26.

and basically getting He looks at it and goes I delivered

:42:27.:42:28.

this, why are you questioning me? Other people in the party

:42:29.:42:34.

want to change the tone of Ukip, I can't see how it will be resolved

:42:35.:42:37.

and let some nicknames really shift Owen Bennett ending the report.

:42:38.:42:56.

Douglas Carswell, Neil Hamilton, Lord Pearson, all senior figures who

:42:57.:42:59.

found themselves briefed against by the leadership. What is it about

:43:00.:43:04.

Farage where he falls out with everybody? I don't necessarily think

:43:05.:43:06.

he everybody? I don't necessarily think

:43:07.:43:10.

political party, people have very strong views about Wallace or

:43:11.:43:15.

direction or the ideas and then you have a robust argument with the

:43:16.:43:21.

leader sometimes. I have had discussions with Nigel. Arguments

:43:22.:43:27.

question my Antony you can call them argument or discussion. I respect

:43:28.:43:31.

the fact he is willing to engage with you about the debate. Is he

:43:32.:43:38.

willing to engage? It sounds like he is losing the iron grip he had on

:43:39.:43:41.

the party and maybe that is a good thing. Every leader comes to a stage

:43:42.:43:49.

where... You have to look at this, this man has achieved what most

:43:50.:43:53.

people have not, which is force our government to have a referendum that

:43:54.:43:57.

people are about to have. They took us through the elections that we won

:43:58.:44:02.

in the election and he did not do that through force of will but

:44:03.:44:06.

actually listening to other people about direction and views and

:44:07.:44:09.

getting the message through. I don't think it is fair to say that he does

:44:10.:44:12.

not listen to people because I know he does. Does he take a strong view?

:44:13.:44:17.

Absolutely and that is what parties do. Is it a good thing that Farage

:44:18.:44:23.

is not getting his way in the way he once did? He is actually being

:44:24.:44:27.

challenged by Neil Hammerton and said he did not wanting to get top

:44:28.:44:32.

of the list but he is. Is it good? It shows we have a party that has

:44:33.:44:38.

more people involved in the discussions, there is more openness

:44:39.:44:41.

in the way these discussions come into the press, I don't and that is

:44:42.:44:45.

necessarily the right thing to do so, but what it also shows is that

:44:46.:44:50.

underneath there will always discussions about whether people

:44:51.:44:52.

succeeded or not. Not because Nigel wanted them to but because there

:44:53.:44:54.

were differences in the party. What do you think will happen to

:44:55.:45:03.

Douglas Carswell after the referendum? There is a difference in

:45:04.:45:07.

style between him and Nigel Farage. Is he likely to jump back to the

:45:08.:45:12.

Conservatives? I would not know what Douglas wants to do. He is as

:45:13.:45:16.

passionate as me and the other members of the party in leaving the

:45:17.:45:19.

European Union and is campaigning to do so. If I was to make a guess, I

:45:20.:45:26.

believe Douglas would take the issues he has at hand about opening

:45:27.:45:30.

up democracy, bringing more opportunity for people, to get

:45:31.:45:37.

involved and try to push that through into the policies of Ukip

:45:38.:45:42.

and others. Will there be a leadership contest after the

:45:43.:45:46.

referendum? I would not know about that. Do you think there will be?

:45:47.:45:52.

I'm not sure, what happens after June the 23rd is there will be some

:45:53.:45:56.

major issues to face. If we win, and I believe we will, from seeing

:45:57.:46:06.

people campaigning on the streets, we need to ensure that we leave. We

:46:07.:46:16.

will be concentrating on making sure Cameron commits to his word of

:46:17.:46:18.

leaving the European Union. Tomorrow is Budget Day -

:46:19.:46:19.

complete with Downing Street photo-calls featuring

:46:20.:46:21.

the Chancellor's red budget box, discussion of what the Chancellor

:46:22.:46:23.

will drink during his speech, and the weighty budget red books

:46:24.:46:25.

which provide all the detail conveniently left out

:46:26.:46:28.

of the statemetn. It's perhaps the biggest day

:46:29.:46:29.

of the year in the Chancellor's calendar - but it's also a tricky

:46:30.:46:32.

day for the leader of the opposition who has to respond to the Budget

:46:33.:46:35.

speech having only just In a moment we'll discuss the best

:46:36.:46:38.

way to prepare to give First though, here's how the last

:46:39.:46:42.

Labour opposition leader and last Conservative opposition leader

:46:43.:46:46.

coped with the task. Today, everyone can see what an

:46:47.:47:01.

utter mess this Labour government have made of the British economy.

:47:02.:47:03.

The fastest rise in unemployment in history, the worst recession

:47:04.:47:06.

since World War II, and the worst peacetime public

:47:07.:47:08.

As of today, any claim they have ever made to economic competence

:47:09.:47:15.

Mr Deputy Speaker, the hopes of millions of working

:47:16.:47:21.

people are more important than his hopes of being the future

:47:22.:47:24.

We know this Chancellor is personally ambitious

:47:25.:47:28.

but when the economic recovery is still fragile,

:47:29.:47:32.

he should be ambitious not just for himself but for the country.

:47:33.:47:40.

We've been joined by Torsten Bell, former policy advisor

:47:41.:47:42.

to Ed Miliband, who was involved with prepping the former labour

:47:43.:47:45.

How much site do you get of the contents of the statement? I have

:47:46.:47:59.

worked for chancellors and Shadow Chancellor is and the job, you might

:48:00.:48:05.

think is harder for chancellors because they need to put together a

:48:06.:48:09.

budget, whereas all the opposition leader has got to do. It turns out

:48:10.:48:14.

that the Chancellor has thousands of civil servants and Leader of the

:48:15.:48:18.

Opposition has probably got about five people stuck in a room, not

:48:19.:48:25.

even with him in the chamber. It is definitely a harder gig. Do you get

:48:26.:48:33.

much of a chance, usually the Shadow Chancellor will say, thank you for

:48:34.:48:36.

giving me a little bit beforehand, what are we talking about? We

:48:37.:48:42.

talking about nothing. You get a few pages of a four with heavily

:48:43.:48:46.

redacted text. It might tell you something has happened to

:48:47.:48:53.

productivity. What has changed is the British newspapers give you more

:48:54.:49:01.

advanced site of parts of the budget. That has made the job

:49:02.:49:05.

slightly easier than it was in the 1990s when Ken Clarke believed in

:49:06.:49:15.

secrecy. What do you do to prepare? One of the things about budgets is

:49:16.:49:19.

they do two things, not just the announcement of policy measures, it

:49:20.:49:23.

is also a state of the nation debate. One of the jobs of Leader of

:49:24.:49:27.

the Opposition is to make their case about what they think the state of

:49:28.:49:33.

the nation is. Clearly, you can write most of that in advance. You

:49:34.:49:37.

look at what is in the newspapers and plan for what you think might be

:49:38.:49:42.

announced and hopefully you show yourself to be fleet of foot in the

:49:43.:49:47.

chamber. That's the most difficult bit of all. In terms of what goes on

:49:48.:49:51.

behind-the-scenes, it must be pretty nerve wracking. Particularly if you

:49:52.:49:56.

set up a narrative that is then shot down by George Osborne before you

:49:57.:50:02.

stand up. That would be a bad result. You are looking to avoid

:50:03.:50:07.

that happening. It has happened. Ed Balls had a difficult time on one

:50:08.:50:13.

occasion. It is difficult for everybody and I would say different

:50:14.:50:15.

politicians deal with it in different ways and the other thing

:50:16.:50:20.

you cannot tell from watching it on TV is the sheer wall of noise. It is

:50:21.:50:31.

always load in the House of Commons, budget day and particular government

:50:32.:50:33.

benches after the Chancellor has given a speech are particularly

:50:34.:50:41.

loud. Keeping going through that wall of noise is not

:50:42.:50:47.

straightforward. What about the difference between the Shadow

:50:48.:50:50.

Chancellor and the Leader of the Opposition. How different is it? The

:50:51.:50:58.

Shadow Chancellor answers the statement. The overall shape of the

:50:59.:51:03.

challenge is the same but clearly autumn is slightly lower key. It

:51:04.:51:12.

depends on the individuals in those posts. Some have a good grasp of

:51:13.:51:19.

economics, some are slightly less versed. Who are you thinking of? I

:51:20.:51:25.

could not possibly say. It is an unenviable task having to stand up

:51:26.:51:32.

and respond on those occasions. What would you do to prepare? Pretty much

:51:33.:51:38.

the same lines as this. When you are a barrister you need to prepare for

:51:39.:51:43.

some severe judges. You've got to marshal the arguments as best as you

:51:44.:51:54.

can. I would back that up with evidence, prepares statements and

:51:55.:51:59.

lines, then use experience of debating style. The other thing to

:52:00.:52:05.

say is the Chancellor says a lot and he speaks for an hour, he is

:52:06.:52:12.

prepared that in advance. The job of the Leader of the Opposition is not

:52:13.:52:16.

to respond to everything. The big things, if you don't say anything

:52:17.:52:20.

about the big things then people like you and others have a harsh

:52:21.:52:23.

judgment but they definitely should not be in the business of saying, on

:52:24.:52:28.

your 15th point, I think you could improve this. The challenge is to

:52:29.:52:32.

have something to say on the state of the nation and respond to the big

:52:33.:52:36.

things in the budget. How prepared is Jeremy Corbyn?

:52:37.:52:41.

I have no idea but I'm sure he's been doing the preparation. Do you

:52:42.:52:48.

think he will do well? I've no idea. I don't know where he's up to. Top

:52:49.:52:54.

tips? The world has changed and in the olden days you passed notes into

:52:55.:53:00.

the chamber but nowadays there is text message and Twitter and I

:53:01.:53:05.

recommend he uses those. That very neatly moves into the last item,

:53:06.:53:08.

free advice. Now, if you're watching this show

:53:09.:53:10.

close to a computer or a smartphone, chances are you are interacting

:53:11.:53:13.

with us on Twitter using But did you know Twitter is fast

:53:14.:53:16.

approaching its tenth anniversary? Joining us to discuss

:53:17.:53:21.

its increasingly important role in political life -

:53:22.:53:25.

using slightly more than 140 characters, I hope -

:53:26.:53:27.

is Lewis Wiltshire, Twitter's senior But before we discuss the highs,

:53:28.:53:29.

let's remind ourselves of some David Cameron himself made the first

:53:30.:53:35.

prominent Twitter gaffe when he told Absolute Radio in 2009

:53:36.:53:44.

that "too many tweets make a bleep" - a prophetic lesson

:53:45.:53:48.

he was to fail to learn himself. The next year Bristol East MP

:53:49.:53:53.

Kerry McCarthy learnt to her cost that revealing postal vote counts

:53:54.:53:56.

during the General Election was a big no-no - she was cautioned

:53:57.:53:59.

by police for election fraud. Perhaps the most popular gaffe

:54:00.:54:05.

was committed by Ed Balls in 2011 after he tweeted his name instead

:54:06.:54:11.

of searching for it. Ever since, each April 28th,

:54:12.:54:14.

thousands pay homage by tweeting Tweeting photos has often got

:54:15.:54:19.

politicians into trouble. In June 2013 George Osborne posted

:54:20.:54:26.

a photo of him eating a burger Those lampooning him

:54:27.:54:30.

included Eric Pickles, who tweeted a picture

:54:31.:54:35.

of him in similar pose, There were more serious consequences

:54:36.:54:37.

for Emily Thornberry when she posted a photo of a house draped

:54:38.:54:42.

in St George's flags while campaigning in the Rochester

:54:43.:54:46.

Strood by-election. Miliband himself was responsible

:54:47.:54:49.

for some sloppy tweeting following the death of Bob Holness

:54:50.:54:55.

in 2012, saying that "a generation will remember him fondly

:54:56.:54:59.

from Blackbusters". In 2013 David Cameron wrote "@IDS-MP

:55:00.:55:04.

and I are determined Sadly for the Prime Minister @IDS-MP

:55:05.:55:08.

is a parody account of the Work Pensions Secretary -

:55:09.:55:15.

the real Iain Duncan Smith And who can forget UKIP -

:55:16.:55:19.

who complained that @reporterboy - that's our Giles the way -

:55:20.:55:24.

had filmed a piece about Actually, it was Westminster

:55:25.:55:28.

Cathedral. Lewis Wiltshire from

:55:29.:55:33.

Twitter has joined us. No doubt enjoying those

:55:34.:55:42.

recollections. We've seen lots of politicians messing up. Therefore

:55:43.:55:46.

the grace of God go I. What is your favourite Twitter mistake? The Ed

:55:47.:55:52.

Balls one, I am fond of, he still tweaked it every year. What they

:55:53.:56:01.

show is not only is everything that MPs say a matter of public record,

:56:02.:56:06.

that's always been the case, but also, with Twitter, everybody has a

:56:07.:56:10.

voice. The voting public can challenge MPs. Is it just an echo

:56:11.:56:19.

chamber? Are you just seeing these sentiments reverberating back? I

:56:20.:56:25.

don't think so because we see all ranges of the political spectrum

:56:26.:56:32.

reflected back. In any group that big you will always get political

:56:33.:56:36.

views covered but all the parties use it and followers use it as well.

:56:37.:56:46.

Is it worth the risk? There are loads more mistakes. Is Iain Duncan

:56:47.:56:57.

Smith right not to be on Twitter? 88% of UK MPs are on Twitter. They

:56:58.:57:03.

use it in a very powerful way to connect to the electorate. They also

:57:04.:57:10.

use it in a way that is dialogue. Everyone has a voice, people can

:57:11.:57:16.

speak truth to power. They can challenge MPs and ask them

:57:17.:57:23.

questions. Are you a fan of Twitter? I have made mistakes. I feel that

:57:24.:57:30.

Twitter users will go in search of mine. But it is essential to get

:57:31.:57:41.

messages out. How difficult is it to distil your thoughts into 140

:57:42.:57:49.

characters? You get better at it very quickly. Is that the truth of

:57:50.:58:01.

it? I think politicians have found an authenticity of voice. Barack

:58:02.:58:04.

Obama, the most followed, in the UK as well, Nicola Sturgeon, David

:58:05.:58:11.

Cameron, Boris, others. Nigel Farage as well. Right across the range.

:58:12.:58:20.

Politicians that speak with an authenticity of voice.

:58:21.:58:21.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:22.:58:25.

Which TV couple have been discussing their trip to Chequers

:58:26.:58:28.

for a dinner with Tony Blair, over which they discussed

:58:29.:58:31.

the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction

:58:32.:58:33.

Was it a) Adrian Chiles and Christine Bleakley

:58:34.:58:36.

b) Richard and Judy c) Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn

:58:37.:58:38.

or d) Ant and Dec So Steven what's the correct answer?

:58:39.:58:41.

I think it was Ant and Dec. It was Richard and Judy! I thought it was

:58:42.:58:44.

obvious. Tomorrow is budget day and we will

:58:45.:58:56.

have full coverage. I will be presenting from Bolton.

:58:57.:59:09.

You and I - we're gonna change this country...

:59:10.:59:14.

He said, "I am President of the United States,

:59:15.:59:16.

# All my friends know the low rider... #

:59:17.:59:20.

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