28/04/2016 Daily Politics


28/04/2016

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We now know that the 96 football fans who died at Hillsborough 27

:00:37.:00:47.

But should the current Chief Constable have

:00:48.:00:51.

Naz Shah has been suspended from the Labour Party over

:00:52.:00:56.

Has the Labour Leader been too slow to act over this and other

:00:57.:01:00.

We'll be speaking to Ken Livingstone.

:01:01.:01:04.

Leaving the European Union is a threat to jobs, wages

:01:05.:01:07.

and prices say the Prime Minister and a former union boss.

:01:08.:01:12.

But a group of economists claim quitting the single market

:01:13.:01:14.

would boost national income and raise living standards.

:01:15.:01:17.

# This is what it sounds like...#

:01:18.:01:28.

We put a Prince mega fan through his paces.

:01:29.:01:38.

I saw Prince live, you know. Did you? A great night, I think.

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From what I can remember, which isn't a lot.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the duration, former

:01:47.:01:49.

Liberal Democrat Leader, Deputy Prime Minister

:01:50.:01:50.

First this morning, the Chief Constable

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suspended following Tuesday's verdicts in the

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David Crompton is accused by campaigners of overseeing

:02:00.:02:04.

attempts to shift the blame on to Liverpool fans

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Police and Crime Commissioner, Doctor Alan Billings,

:02:07.:02:12.

who took the decision to remove David Crompton from his job,

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I've reached of this decision with a heavy heart,

:02:16.:02:25.

following discussions with David, both in the run-up to

:02:26.:02:27.

and following the delivery of the Hillsborough verdicts.

:02:28.:02:29.

My decision is based on the erosion of public trust and confidence,

:02:30.:02:34.

referenced in statements and comments in the House

:02:35.:02:36.

of Commons this lunch time, along with public calls

:02:37.:02:38.

for the Chief Constable's resignation from a number

:02:39.:02:40.

Nick Clegg, should David Crompton have been suspended? I think there

:02:41.:02:55.

should be no alternative. I spoke to AlanBillings about it, the day

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before the judgment came out. I think it was quite clear from that

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and other conversations that whilst of course David Crompton was not

:03:02.:03:06.

around 27 years ago, the decision by South Yorkshire Police to continue,

:03:07.:03:09.

after by the way having issued a fulsome apology to the families in

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Liverpool, to nonetheless, continue with a lot of the misinformation

:03:15.:03:18.

that had been perpet waited by South Yorkshire Police over so many years,

:03:19.:03:22.

was a huge error and quite, rightly, I think, he has taken responsibility

:03:23.:03:27.

for it. Is there a risk, that because of the failure to get to the

:03:28.:03:31.

truth for 27 years of what happened that day, at Hillsborough, that

:03:32.:03:36.

individual police officers today may be unfairly blamed for the actual

:03:37.:03:39.

deaths of the 96 fans, remember than, or just for the cover-up. Of

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course, there are lots of risks. I as a constituency MP in South

:03:48.:03:52.

Yorkshire, on behalf of of my constituents, I'm worried, for

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instance, that the good, dutiful professional dedicated police

:03:56.:03:58.

officers who work in the South Yorkshire force, who have nothing to

:03:59.:04:02.

do with the events, either what happened in Hillsborough or

:04:03.:04:04.

subsequent events, they are deeply demoralised now. Urgently, for the

:04:05.:04:09.

people of South Yorkshire we need to somehow try to restore a sense of

:04:10.:04:13.

morale and purpose to the force itself. Unfortunately for the force

:04:14.:04:16.

it goes wider than Hillsborough. If you look at the explanations of one

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of David Crompton's predecessors to the House of Commons about the

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horrific things that happened in Rotherham, the sexual exploitation,

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and some very vulnerable children there, claiming the force had no

:04:30.:04:32.

idea what was going on, I'm afraid this is another hammer blow against

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a force whose credibility has been damaged in so many respects over a

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long period of time. Should David Crompton resign, go permanently, do

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you think? To be honested. He is suspended now. This is not going to

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be fixed by whether or not he is suspended. We have a were found

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problem in a police force who for various, complex reasons, have

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simply not met the most basic standards not only of integrity but

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professionalism on a number of fronts over very many years.

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Something radical needs to be done. Whoever is elected as the Police and

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Crime Commissioner in South Yorkshire next week, this is their

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absolute number one priority. Now some people have said about

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disbanding the force, folding it into another one. I'm in the if that

:05:15.:05:18.

necessarily will produce better policing in the local area but

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clearly every option needs to be considered. A message on a website

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for the forces' retired officers said they had dedicated and

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courageous careers and they should be proud of their work, deit spite

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the inquests' conclusions. What is your response to that? It is a very

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insensitive thing to say, right now. In the very strict limits of how it

:05:39.:05:42.

might have been intended, of course it is right to say there are plenty

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of individual police officers, I know many of them, who are as good

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as police officers, any other around the country, and their integrity

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should not be willfully be besmirched because of what happened

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27 years ago or recently in the inquests but to say that now. It

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wasn't meant for public consumption But to say that - I can understand

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why the families of the 96 feel it was an incredibly crass and incense

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think of thing to say but look, I'm also a South Yorkshire MP. I want a

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good police force to do good work for my constituents and the problem

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at the moment you have a force in complete disarray. So after the PCC,

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the Police and Crime Commissioner elections next week, we finally have

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to turn a page on this very, very sorry history of the force over many

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years. Thank you. Our Guest of the Day,

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Nick Clegg, is a big music fan. But which '80s' popstar did

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he dress up as when he was Was it a) Mick Jagger, b) David

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Bowie, c) Freddie Mercury I know which one I'm ghg for. -- I'm

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going for. So the Bradford West MP

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Naz Shah was suspended from the Labour party yesterday,

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pending an investigation into whether tweets she sent before

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she was an MP were anti-Semitic. She had already resigned her

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minor and unpaid post as Parliamentary Private Secretary

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to the Shadow Chancellor, The party will hope to draw

:07:13.:07:14.

a line under the matter but today more questions

:07:15.:07:17.

are being asked about its handling of this and other

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allegations of anti-Semitism. Yesterday, MP Naz Shah

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was suspended by the Labour Party following the discovery of social

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media posts she made One post suggested the country

:07:30.:07:31.

should be moved to the United while another showed

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Martin Luther-King with the caption "never forget that everything Hitler

:07:39.:07:46.

did in Germany was legal", This is not the first time the

:07:47.:07:49.

Labour Party has been accused of Last month activists

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Gerry Downing and Vicki Kirby And yesterday, Bradford councillor,

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Mohammad Shabbir, was also excluded Several senior Labour politicians,

:08:07.:08:15.

including Lord Levy, say the party has a "serious

:08:16.:08:18.

issue" with anti-Semitism. Labour MPs John Mann

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and Wes Streeting have criticised leader Jeremy Corbyn

:08:24.:08:25.

for being "flat-footed" on the issue, and said

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they want to see the Labour The Board of Deputies a body that

:08:27.:08:41.

represents British Jews have called on them to implement a strategy on

:08:42.:08:43.

this issue. And we're joined now by the former

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Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, Who is facing calls to be suspended.

:08:45.:09:09.

I have heard a lot of criticism of Israel, I have never heard anything

:09:10.:09:15.

anti-Semitic. I think blurring the things undermines the real

:09:16.:09:18.

importance of anti-Semitism. A real anti-Semite doesn't hate the Jews in

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Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or Stoke

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Newington, it is a physical loathing. When Naz Shah MPed a very

:09:27.:09:32.

Kates the forceable removal of Israeli Jews to the United States,

:09:33.:09:37.

it is not anti-Semitism? No, it is over the top and rude. I supported

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Naz in her campaign to... Is that not anti-Semitism? No, she was rude,

:09:41.:09:46.

over the top, who am I to denounce anyone for doing that The forceable

:09:47.:09:56.

deportation of Jews? Wrong. Not anti-Semitic I don't think she S it

:09:57.:10:01.

was incredibly rude. I don't think she was an anti-Semite. When the

:10:02.:10:04.

investigation is finished they will say she was rude and over the top

:10:05.:10:09.

but they won't find evidence that she hates Jews. When she urges in an

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online poll that show wants people to vote her way because "The Jews

:10:15.:10:21.

are rowing", that's not anti-Semitic? We have to investigate

:10:22.:10:23.

the charges and contexts in which they are made. If she is

:10:24.:10:27.

anti-Semitic, like the other three or four members we have found to be

:10:28.:10:32.

anti-Semitic, she will be expelled. When she posted a tweet, linking to

:10:33.:10:37.

a blog which claimed that Zionism was grooming Jews to exert influence

:10:38.:10:43.

at the highest levels of public life s that not anti-Semitism? That's

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part of the classic anti-Semitic thing that there is an international

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Jewish conspiracy. She link to the blog. You have said there isn't a

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provenlt I suggest to you that the evidence I'm giving to you suggests

:10:57.:10:59.

that at the very least one should have an open mind? I have an open

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mind. No, you have said she is not anti-Semitic I see nothing to

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suggest to me that she is anti-Semitic, I wouldn't have

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supported here, if I thought she was. When she the puts on social

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immediate and disaccept nights a slogan "Never forget anything that

:11:20.:11:24.

Hitler did in Germany was legal." Is that not anti-Semitic? It is a

:11:25.:11:27.

statement of fact. Hitler passed the laws to allow him to do it. What is

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the point of the fact? It is history. But Hitler was mad, he

:11:33.:11:36.

killed six million Jews. Why would you undermine it was legal to kill

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six million Jews? She is not saying it is legal, but what they did in

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the way they ran that country allowed them not to kill only 6

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million Jews but kill the Communists and lefties like me. My father

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almost died when a Nazi sub, sinked his boat. We all have fares fathers

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like that, not all. So when the Luton Labour councillor was

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suspended after describing Hitler as "the greatest man in history" and

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saying she wanted Iran to wipe out Israel in a nuclear attack, that is

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not anti-Semitism? That is and that's why she has been suspended or

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expelled. You said there sent anti-Semitism in the Labour Party?

:12:26.:12:29.

No, what I have said is that in 47 years in the party, in all the

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meetings I have been n I have never heard anyone say anything

:12:34.:12:36.

anti-Semitic. There is bowed to be in a party of 500,000 people. You

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will have a handful of anti-Semites and a handful of racists. You don't

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seem to know what is going on, within your own party, and you have

:12:47.:12:52.

been a life-long member. When Vicky Kishy, when she says Jews have big

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noses and slaughter the oppresside that semitism? -- Vicky Kirby?

:12:59.:13:05.

That's anti-Semitic. You have dug out virtually every comment. All

:13:06.:13:09.

from recent years. You have said you never heard anything I never H You

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didn't know about these? When they erupted in the news, yes. I have

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never met any of these people. Meeting them is not the issue. It is

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what they said. When Kadim Hussein, former Labour Mayor of Bradford

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shared a post complaining that the schools in the area only taught, Ann

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Frank and six million zionists killed by Hitler that's not

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anti-Semitism? That's why he has been suspended. So there is a

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problem There is not a problem. You are talking about be a handful of

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people in a party of 500,000. Jeremy Corbyn has moved rapidly to deal

:13:46.:13:49.

with all of them. No he hasn't. He didn't want Naz Shah to be suspended

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order Vicky Kirby. She is the one by the way who says Jews have long

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noses and slaughter the oppressed. He met with Naz and they agreed she

:13:59.:14:01.

would stand down while the investigation goes on. He called her

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in to see him. We have hand #ye8d these things very rapidly. --

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handled these things. Miss Shah is a colleague and friend, also a member

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of the Labour Party, a Bradford councillor, who has not been

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suspended who refers to the Jewish people as zial, which you will know

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is a racial epitit. If it is, he will be expelled. You are talking

:14:29.:14:34.

about a huge investigation, virtually anything everyone has put

:14:35.:14:37.

on the internet and it has been found. You have said in 47 years it

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hasn't been a problem In 47 years I have not heard anyone say. You have

:14:43.:14:46.

missed this? No, many people are new and recent members of the party who

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joined in the big influx. 300,000 new people came N some of them are

:14:51.:14:54.

bound to be... Some of these are not part of the 300. Maybe you don't see

:14:55.:14:59.

anti-Semitism because you set a very high par bar for it. Afterall you

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are the man who welcomed Yuset Al-Kari to London in 2005. Called

:15:10.:15:14.

him a grossive voice. This is man who called for Jews and homosexuals

:15:15.:15:17.

to be killed. Is that not anti-Semitic? No this is the man who

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called on Muslims around the world to donate blood after the attacks of

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9/11. When he came to London I went to him with the mosque where I heard

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him say - no man should hit a woman and you should not discriminate

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against homosexuals. I cannot equate whey heard him say to... He has

:15:36.:15:40.

heard for Jews to be killed. You embraced him. A man who made a clear

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aented accept itedic statement? -- anti-Semitic He made no anti-Semitic

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statement here in London, this stuff has come out more recently.You

:15:53.:15:56.

didn't know this. No, all I knew was... You didn't do due diligence

:15:57.:16:00.

on him I don't investigate people.You don't worry about the

:16:01.:16:03.

people you may be sharing platforms. You talk about women, he also said

:16:04.:16:10.

"To be be a solved from guilt a rained woman must have shown good

:16:11.:16:16.

conduct." None of with that was what he said in my presence. Hitler was

:16:17.:16:24.

kind to dogs He advocated at the mosque no Muslim should hit his

:16:25.:16:28.

wife. You didn't know that he said Jews should be killed. He didn't say

:16:29.:16:33.

anything like that at City Hall or the renalpents park mosque. There

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are now 11 MPs calling for you to be suspended from the Labour Party.

:16:39.:16:43.

-- from the You are under some pressure

:16:44.:16:47.

this mornings aren't you? I have said what I believe to be

:16:48.:16:58.

true, that Naz Shah is not anti-Semitic. She made remarks, but

:16:59.:17:05.

that does not make her an anti-Semite. There was a

:17:06.:17:09.

confrontation between you and John Mann. We can show you a bit of that.

:17:10.:17:18.

You are a Nazi apologist! You are rewriting history! Go back and check

:17:19.:17:28.

what Hitler did! You have obviously never heard of Mein Kampf! Have you

:17:29.:17:40.

never read it? From 1932. I had been a journalist since 1973 and I have

:17:41.:17:46.

never heard an MP calling a fellow MP a Nazi. A Nazi apologist. A

:17:47.:17:54.

Labour MP to pay former mayor of London and former Labour MP and

:17:55.:17:59.

Labour activist, chair of a Commission, Nazi apologist. He went

:18:00.:18:03.

completely over the top. I was doing a radio interview at the time and he

:18:04.:18:08.

was shouting, I am a racist, anti-Semitic. I have had that with

:18:09.:18:13.

John Mann before. Screening a couple of weeks ago I was a bigot down the

:18:14.:18:18.

phone. It does not worry you these Labour members, many of them in the

:18:19.:18:23.

mainstream, not Jo hold Blairite enemies, that they see an apologist

:18:24.:18:30.

for people making anti-Semitic statements in your party. I am not

:18:31.:18:35.

an apologist for anybody making anti-Semitic statements and they

:18:36.:18:39.

will be expelled from the party if they are doing but do not confuse

:18:40.:18:43.

that with criticising the Israeli government. It is not criticism of

:18:44.:18:49.

the Israeli government policies for a member to say Hitler was one of

:18:50.:18:56.

the greatest people in history and juice... They will be expelled from

:18:57.:19:01.

the party and that process has started. Can you continue as head of

:19:02.:19:08.

the foreign policy Commission, at given everything that has been said?

:19:09.:19:15.

These things -- these things dominate the news and people, down

:19:16.:19:19.

when they check what you have said. I am sure a lot of people have had

:19:20.:19:24.

phone calls from the Daily Mail, and when they talk to me, that is not

:19:25.:19:31.

what I am saying. We will leave Nazi -- we will leave Naz Shah to be

:19:32.:19:37.

investigated and if she is not found to be innocent, she will be

:19:38.:19:43.

expelled. Chris Ryan, the Labour shadow Leader of the House has said

:19:44.:19:49.

this. In Parliament today, he said anti-Semitism is wrong, and of

:19:50.:19:52.

story, I am tired of people trying to expel it away and, yes, I am

:19:53.:20:01.

talking to you, Ken Livingstone. He should check my record. We worked

:20:02.:20:06.

with Jewish groups to get across to our children the scandal of the

:20:07.:20:10.

Holocaust and the groups challenging anti-Semitism and I had a very good

:20:11.:20:14.

working relationship with the Jewish community. You are found to have

:20:15.:20:17.

brought disrespect to your office when you like and a Jewish

:20:18.:20:21.

journalist to a concentration camp guard. I cannot tell a journalist,

:20:22.:20:28.

whether they Jewish or, whatever, but if he is chasing me at night and

:20:29.:20:32.

barking questions at me, you might be rude to them and some people

:20:33.:20:37.

might hit them. He said he was just doing his job. You were found to not

:20:38.:20:42.

be doing your job, the enquiry found you had brought disrespect to your

:20:43.:20:46.

office. We went to the High Court and the judge opened his judgment by

:20:47.:20:50.

saying, I hope nobody here will suggest Mr Livingstone is

:20:51.:20:55.

anti-Semitic and we won the case. What you make of this? I understood

:20:56.:21:01.

the reason why it Labour MPs were calling for you to resign was not

:21:02.:21:06.

because she defended Naz Shah but it because you reportedly said

:21:07.:21:11.

something about Hitler's approach to Zionism in the 1930s, is that right?

:21:12.:21:16.

He did not speak does she did not win the election but became the

:21:17.:21:20.

largest party in 1932, his policy was not to kill Jews to deport them

:21:21.:21:27.

to Israel. I am shocked, in all my years of politics, I have never seen

:21:28.:21:31.

this perverse logic which throws Hitler and rewriting Hitler --

:21:32.:21:36.

history into a sensitive debate. What is this is to talk about Hitler

:21:37.:21:40.

and your views of his approach designers given what happened and

:21:41.:21:47.

given the sensitivities around the Jewish community here and around the

:21:48.:21:53.

world. Of course everybody defends a person's right to be critical of the

:21:54.:21:56.

Israeli government and my party, we have had issues. I have had to

:21:57.:22:02.

suspend people. You suspended one for three months. He said many awful

:22:03.:22:09.

things. The point is there is something, this was said last night,

:22:10.:22:13.

there is something on parts of the left in British politics that enters

:22:14.:22:18.

into an incredibly intellectual retorted justification to link

:22:19.:22:23.

Hitler and modern politics. Your colleagues think you are part of

:22:24.:22:28.

that. The simple truth, that was Hitler -- that was Hitler's policy

:22:29.:22:31.

when he first came to power, the move Germany's Jews to Israel. So

:22:32.:22:38.

that is all right? No, I denounced that. Why raise the point? I was

:22:39.:22:43.

interviewed and you have known me not to answer a question. I do not

:22:44.:22:53.

understand. I1940, Adolf Eichmann wanted to forcibly remove him to

:22:54.:22:57.

Madagascar and now we have a Labour MPs saying he should be forcibly

:22:58.:23:01.

removed to America, I do not understand the point. I was asked a

:23:02.:23:05.

question and I answered it, you have never known me not to. That was

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Hitler's bowl -- policy in 1932 when he came to power. You are a

:23:11.:23:13.

household name and people know you in the country and you are part of

:23:14.:23:16.

mainstream politics. I never thought I would see the day well-known

:23:17.:23:22.

politicians would rake over Hitler's views in a way that people would

:23:23.:23:27.

simply not understand. Things, they are either historically true or not.

:23:28.:23:31.

That is one reason I pursued my policies because I do study history

:23:32.:23:35.

because if you do, you can avoid making the same mistakes again.

:23:36.:23:39.

You're also a politician responsible for choosing your words carefully

:23:40.:23:43.

and not entering this weird and contorted view that allows you to

:23:44.:23:47.

talk about Hitler in the same breath as the Jewish community in Britain.

:23:48.:23:56.

It is extraordinary. What about political comparisons, is that not

:23:57.:23:59.

the problem? Why do you use the Holocaust is a political comparison

:24:00.:24:04.

to highlight your objects and to be Israeli government? That is what

:24:05.:24:10.

offends people. My objection to the Israeli government, for nearly 70

:24:11.:24:15.

years, Palestinians stock, why use the Holocaust and hip to underline

:24:16.:24:21.

that point? -- Palestinians. I make no point between the current Israeli

:24:22.:24:24.

policy and the Holocaust and Hitler, was asked the question in an

:24:25.:24:29.

interview. If you say, was it true we were invaded by the Normans in

:24:30.:24:34.

1066, I would say, yes, that is true. I will not avoid the truth.

:24:35.:24:37.

We're joined now by the Labour MP John Mann.

:24:38.:24:41.

You have seen them having a confrontation earlier. We have been

:24:42.:24:47.

speaking to Ken Livingstone and we showed your remarks, he says you are

:24:48.:24:50.

over the top calling him a Nazi apologist. He is a Nazi apologist

:24:51.:24:57.

and he is a worse historian than he is a politician. Factually

:24:58.:25:00.

inaccurate. He should read Mein Kampf, by Hitler. He should study

:25:01.:25:05.

what the Nazi state including what Hitler did when he came to power in

:25:06.:25:10.

1993 and the events of that year and he should see what the first and

:25:11.:25:14.

second and third thing that Nazi regime did and who it targeted and

:25:15.:25:20.

why. He should look at what he and his leaders said about Zionism. And

:25:21.:25:26.

he should reconsider why he has said these hugely offensive and grotesque

:25:27.:25:33.

remarks. The timing is calculated. And offensive as well. He should not

:25:34.:25:38.

be sat on Labour's National Executive Committee, he should be

:25:39.:25:42.

suspended today. What do you say to that? I simply say, go back and

:25:43.:25:48.

check, is what I said true or not? The BBC have a huge team of

:25:49.:25:51.

researchers and it would take a couple of hours to go back. What is

:25:52.:25:56.

the point? I was asked a question and I answered it. In 41 years since

:25:57.:26:02.

winning my first election, 45 years, I have never lied. I do not think it

:26:03.:26:08.

is entirely historically accurate because they had already started

:26:09.:26:11.

attacking the Jews when he came to power. It was not an attack to say

:26:12.:26:18.

he would deport all the Jews. You seem to be implying he was not such

:26:19.:26:22.

a bad guy because he just wanted to deport them and he just went wrong

:26:23.:26:27.

later on. People will think this is unbelievable. He was a monster from

:26:28.:26:32.

start to finish, it is simply the historical fact that his policy

:26:33.:26:35.

initially was to send Germany's Jews to Israel and there were private

:26:36.:26:41.

meetings between Zionism and Hitler's government that were kept

:26:42.:26:46.

confidential when they had a dialogue about whether to do that.

:26:47.:26:51.

Do you think Ken Livingstone is anti-Semitic? Yes, he is and his

:26:52.:26:55.

rewriting of history. He is factually wrong. Hitler was not a

:26:56.:27:01.

Zionist. He blocked any attempt to get Jews into what was then

:27:02.:27:06.

Palestine. And the reason he did so and he said so and it was expressed,

:27:07.:27:12.

was because a Zionist state would be an international Jewish conspiracy

:27:13.:27:17.

and a base for it. He said it in Mein Kampf and it was said by his

:27:18.:27:23.

foreign Minister who specified that in great detail in 1937, outlining

:27:24.:27:28.

why they were not prepared to allow Jews they wanted to get rid of the

:27:29.:27:33.

leave to go to what was then Palestine because it would have

:27:34.:27:38.

created a power base for an international Jewish conspiracy.

:27:39.:27:42.

Hitler was not a Zionist. And to suggest so is so grotesque. It is

:27:43.:27:48.

calculatedly offensive. I think you have lost it, Mr Livingstone, I

:27:49.:27:52.

think you need help. It is a deliberate calculated attempt to

:27:53.:27:55.

cause problems and to stir up hatred. What you on at the moment?

:27:56.:28:01.

You should certainly not be on Labour's National Executive! Do you

:28:02.:28:05.

understand why those remarks, you say you are telling the truth, but

:28:06.:28:10.

how they would it -- would set a community and people who lived and

:28:11.:28:14.

survived or died during the Holocaust? -- upset. That is not

:28:15.:28:20.

true, I have not said it was a Zionist, I said his policy in 1932

:28:21.:28:25.

was to deport Jews to Israel, that does not mean I agree. You said it

:28:26.:28:31.

today, do you withdraw that? I said that was his policy and it was

:28:32.:28:35.

followed by private conversations between the Zionist leadership and

:28:36.:28:38.

Hitler's government about whether to carry out that policy, he did not.

:28:39.:28:47.

You are raising these points about the early 1930s at a time when the

:28:48.:28:54.

party faces a crisis of anti-Semitism in its own ranks.

:28:55.:28:58.

People will be baffled this is what you are doing. I am not raising

:28:59.:29:01.

these points, and was planning a nice quiet morning in the garden

:29:02.:29:06.

until I am descended upon by these journalists saying, is this true? I

:29:07.:29:10.

would be happier to do the garden, it is a nice day out. You have been

:29:11.:29:17.

here and you have answered the question is, that cannot be said of

:29:18.:29:21.

all politicians. We are grateful for that. People will make up their own

:29:22.:29:26.

minds about what you're saying and we will let you go back your garden.

:29:27.:29:29.

John Mann, thank you. Now, what's the best way of dealing

:29:30.:29:32.

with Britain's drug problem? Stricter laws, better enforcement

:29:33.:29:34.

or harsher sentences perhaps? Well, our guest of the day,

:29:35.:29:36.

Nick Clegg, thinks not. In government, he was

:29:37.:29:40.

a big proponent of but failed to persuade his

:29:41.:29:42.

Conservative cabinet colleagues that Giles has been looking

:29:43.:29:45.

at the arguments. In British politics,

:29:46.:30:00.

it seemed we'd all agreed that cannabis and other drugs

:30:01.:30:02.

would and should be illegal. No politician who wanted office

:30:03.:30:05.

was going to seriously Whenever they have, they've lost

:30:06.:30:13.

and they've been told For a variety of reasons,

:30:14.:30:17.

countries like Uruguay, Portugal and nearly half the States

:30:18.:30:21.

of America have relaxed their laws on cannabis at least because,

:30:22.:30:24.

they say, total The intense attack on prohibition

:30:25.:30:26.

of cannabis over the last 30 years has led to a shift

:30:27.:30:31.

in the nature of cannabis. We no longer import balanced

:30:32.:30:34.

cannabis, which has a mixture of THC and cannabidiol,

:30:35.:30:40.

from Morocco or Lebanon, we have tended to result

:30:41.:30:50.

in home-grown cannabis, to get the maximum

:30:51.:30:52.

bang for their bucks. It's a chicken and egg

:30:53.:30:55.

argument about a plant. Does prohibition make

:30:56.:30:57.

underground drugs far stronger, open a gateway to experimentation

:30:58.:30:59.

with harder drugs? And even if that's the case,

:31:00.:31:01.

now it's out there, would decriminalisation

:31:02.:31:03.

or legalisation - they're means skunk, spice and other

:31:04.:31:05.

synthetic replacements would simply It's rather like suggesting that

:31:06.:31:11.

if we took a drug that was freely available, alcohol,

:31:12.:31:20.

that people wouldn't want to drink vodka or whisky,

:31:21.:31:22.

they would prefer just So the drugs genie

:31:23.:31:24.

is out of the bottle. But do people who are

:31:25.:31:31.

criminalised want to seek help? Does somebody with a criminal record

:31:32.:31:34.

for smoking something arguably less dangerous in moderation than alcohol

:31:35.:31:37.

find themselves marginalised? These are some of the arguments

:31:38.:31:41.

Nick Clegg has explored in other parts of the world,

:31:42.:31:44.

and others agree. Free markets in all drugs

:31:45.:31:47.

would be a disaster. But where countries have

:31:48.:31:50.

decriminalised the possession of drugs, we have seen often very

:31:51.:31:54.

good health gains. And the classic example of course

:31:55.:31:57.

is Portugal, where it realised it was economically unfeasible

:31:58.:32:00.

to continue the traditional way Let's look at Colorado,

:32:01.:32:02.

for instance, where they have decriminalised and

:32:03.:32:10.

legalised cannabis use. Amongst 12-18 year olds being

:32:11.:32:12.

randomly tested in high schools, we used to see about 5.6% of those

:32:13.:32:16.

young people testing So the drugs genie

:32:17.:32:20.

is out of the bottle. Now it's up to 57%

:32:21.:32:34.

since legalisation. But trading drugs initiatives aside,

:32:35.:32:36.

there is one problem that has always pushed drugs use,

:32:37.:32:38.

especially cannabis, You have a lot more people

:32:39.:32:40.

who wouldn't have developed psychosis, schizophrenia-like

:32:41.:32:43.

condition, if they hadn't And the trouble is that a good

:32:44.:32:45.

proportion of them are so dependent I rang a drug addict

:32:46.:32:49.

friend of mine who's in recovery and I said,

:32:50.:32:53.

Jamie, what do you think He said, well, if you legalise

:32:54.:32:55.

drugs, send the police round, put me in handcuffs,

:32:56.:33:02.

because in six months, I'd be dead. They've failed to understand

:33:03.:33:04.

what addiction means to people. If you're an addict,

:33:05.:33:07.

you can never get enough. For all the arguments for changing

:33:08.:33:09.

things, it seems the obstacles, if you'll forgive me,

:33:10.:33:11.

are as high as ever. We're joined now by the Mail

:33:12.:33:15.

on Sunday Columnist Peter Hitchens. Welcome to the Daily Politics but

:33:16.:33:25.

Nick Clegg you have returned from atending a UN summit in New York on

:33:26.:33:30.

drug reform, it was widely panned of being something of a damp squib.

:33:31.:33:36.

Disappointed? I wasn't surprised. You have such diverse opinions

:33:37.:33:39.

across the world so you have nations like Asia and China, Asian countries

:33:40.:33:44.

that want to chop people's hands off if you touch drugs and you have the

:33:45.:33:49.

huge experiment in Latin America towards decriminalisation and or

:33:50.:33:52.

legalisation, the film conflicted the two, so the world is quite

:33:53.:33:56.

polarised in its debate. So no wonder if you bring those countries

:33:57.:34:01.

together they can't agree. So nothing substantial was achieved?

:34:02.:34:04.

Not much was achieved there. What is happening is the interesting thing,

:34:05.:34:08.

what is happening in countries across the world who are

:34:09.:34:11.

experimenting, innovating, trying to do something different to reduce the

:34:12.:34:14.

harm of drugs, that's where the debate is now. Not in the UN it is

:34:15.:34:19.

more at national or even local level. Do you accept that because

:34:20.:34:22.

there are polarised positions, as Nick Clegg has outlined, it is very

:34:23.:34:25.

difficult, then, to look at what some people would argue is the

:34:26.:34:29.

sensible view of decriminalising some drugs, in ordered to reduce the

:34:30.:34:33.

number of people who are actually becoming addicted to harder drugs?

:34:34.:34:38.

Almost everything you have said was factually wrong there. The problem

:34:39.:34:41.

with this debate is it is conducted a the a level of ignorance which is

:34:42.:34:46.

positively astonishing. The biggest decriminalisation experiment

:34:47.:34:48.

probably in the Western world has been conducted in this country since

:34:49.:34:54.

1917 under the Misuse of Drugs Act. Cannabis has been effectively a

:34:55.:34:57.

decriminalised drugs for many years. The head of Flying Squad said so in

:34:58.:35:04.

1994. Lord hail school that well-known hippie instructed

:35:05.:35:07.

magistrates to stop sending people to to prison for cannabis possession

:35:08.:35:10.

in 1937. The number of people arrested and prosecuted has been

:35:11.:35:13.

dropping like a stone in the past few years. Before then the police

:35:14.:35:18.

invented something without asking Parliament, the cannabis warning, to

:35:19.:35:22.

let people off. Canning business possession has been decriminalised

:35:23.:35:27.

in this country. What is going on now is a well-fund the campaign, I

:35:28.:35:32.

call it billionaire dope, to achieve the next stage, the marketing,

:35:33.:35:36.

selling on internet, advertising and selling in shops and huge profits to

:35:37.:35:39.

be made, while at the same time - this is vital, the mental health

:35:40.:35:44.

risks, are enormous and Nick Clegg's party has been very rightly

:35:45.:35:46.

concerned about mental health, and the way it is neglected, a huge

:35:47.:35:49.

contribution to mentedal ill innocence this country is made by

:35:50.:35:53.

the very drugs which he seeks to legalise. Taking the point that in

:35:54.:35:58.

your view Peter hitch yins there has been a de facto... It is not my view

:35:59.:36:03.

the fact are available. I can present a book to Mr Clegg, if you

:36:04.:36:07.

read it, you will have to stop saying everything you say. Don't say

:36:08.:36:11.

you don't get any gift on this programme. In terms of mental

:36:12.:36:16.

illness, that's the big worry for people, that actually you can argue

:36:17.:36:20.

for decriminalisation and we will cite statistics from countries like

:36:21.:36:24.

Portugal that have shown you can then remove the barriers to help

:36:25.:36:28.

addict. But a because of the nature of the skunk or the cannabis which

:36:29.:36:33.

is now being dealt, you are getting increasing inspects of young people

:36:34.:36:36.

suffering from schizophrenia, why is your party still pushing that? I

:36:37.:36:42.

think Peter, bless him, just is on the wrong footing. Don't bless me.

:36:43.:36:46.

Drugs are bad for you. Right. They cause harm. I'm a dad, I don't want

:36:47.:36:52.

my kids hooked on drugs. You have to reduce the harm of drugs. What you

:36:53.:36:56.

can't doe, which is Peter and other - is shou wish it away and somehow

:36:57.:37:00.

think you can prohibit drugs out of existence. They have been in

:37:01.:37:02.

existence for thousands of years, they will always be with us. So as a

:37:03.:37:06.

society, if you want a grown-up debate you have to ask yourself why

:37:07.:37:10.

the war on drugs, and the prohibitionist approach has not

:37:11.:37:12.

worked and ask yourself, for instance, if you want to look at the

:37:13.:37:15.

evidence, and the data, why is it that we have just had the highest

:37:16.:37:21.

rate of drug-related fatalities in this country, 3,500 people,

:37:22.:37:25.

drug-related deaths in 2014. Portugal, after decriminalisation,

:37:26.:37:28.

and by the way, they didn't do it for some hippie instipt, they did it

:37:29.:37:31.

because originally they were worried about the link between drug

:37:32.:37:36.

addiction and hth HIV contamination, a spread of HIV. They have had 22

:37:37.:37:41.

drug-related fatalities. At some point people like Peter have to

:37:42.:37:44.

accept that the war on drugs is not working. If something is not

:37:45.:37:48.

working, I generally think you try something else. If you look at the

:37:49.:37:52.

cover of the book you will find to says - the war we nevering fought.

:37:53.:37:56.

Peter, can I just put to you... No, Nick Clegg is aski for an adult

:37:57.:38:03.

argument. Hang on, let me put the figures to you. In Portugal -

:38:04.:38:08.

because people are interested in evidence-based n Portugal the number

:38:09.:38:13.

of street deaths from drug overdozes, fell, the number of new

:38:14.:38:17.

HIV infections from dirty needles fell from 2,000 to 400. In

:38:18.:38:22.

Washington state, the first year of legalisation, raised a lot of money,

:38:23.:38:27.

too, that went into helping drug addict, but marijuana-related

:38:28.:38:30.

convictions fell by 81% after the first year of decriminalisation.

:38:31.:38:34.

There is a mix of figures. But everything comes down to

:38:35.:38:36.

decriminalisation and legalisation. Let us concentrate on something I

:38:37.:38:39.

know about and we can influence, what is going on in this country,

:38:40.:38:45.

the covert, de facto, decriminalisation of cannabis in

:38:46.:38:49.

this country. You need to look at the figures on the past five years

:38:50.:38:53.

alone the number of arrests for cannabis possession has halved. The

:38:54.:38:56.

head of Bristol police said earlier on this week they weren't bother to

:38:57.:39:00.

arrest people for cannabis propossess. If you stop pretend

:39:01.:39:06.

there is a savage prohibitionry war. This country isinvolved in a huge

:39:07.:39:09.

decriminalisation experiment. All the things you blame on prohibition

:39:10.:39:13.

are the result of this experiment about which you appear not to know,

:39:14.:39:17.

all the figures are available. Some obtained by you in parliamentary

:39:18.:39:21.

questions asked by you, you ought to know. If only people would discuss

:39:22.:39:24.

this and let's discuss it factually. I wrote a book on this, it contains

:39:25.:39:28.

the details of how this happened. Why don't you pay any attention, you

:39:29.:39:32.

say you are worried about your kids... Hang on. We have run out of

:39:33.:39:36.

time. If you are worried about your children you should not be pleased

:39:37.:39:41.

with the way they are exposed wholly to a completely unrestrained

:39:42.:39:44.

cannabis trade. Peter, hang on, let Nick Clegg answer Peter, of course

:39:45.:39:48.

is correct when he is saying that there is sort of de facto

:39:49.:39:51.

decriminalisation going on. Thank you. I'm going to right that down

:39:52.:39:57.

and quote T It is not a remarkable discovery. . You have never said T

:39:58.:40:03.

you have said a couple of years a... ALL TALK AT

:40:04.:40:07.

ONCE Pietersener, you need to let him speak, it is not a monologue.

:40:08.:40:11.

Let him speak. You do yourself no favours with this. I'm doing a big

:40:12.:40:17.

favour. Nick Clegg I'm pointing out his views are not remarkable. Of

:40:18.:40:21.

course there is de facto decriminalisation going on, the

:40:22.:40:24.

Chief Constable in Durham has made it clear his police officers are not

:40:25.:40:27.

going to arrest people for the personal possession of cannabis. On

:40:28.:40:34.

that narrow point I agree, let's have honesty decriminalisation is

:40:35.:40:36.

happening. What people doesn't address is that you have this sort

:40:37.:40:41.

of legal twilight world where it is happening in practice but it is not

:40:42.:40:45.

recognised in law, at the same time, it is the criminal gangs who

:40:46.:40:48.

nonetheless continue to profit from it all. My question is - to what -

:40:49.:40:56.

at what point is criminality, mass criminality the answer to drugs and

:40:57.:40:59.

the what were that they do to individuals? I have never understood

:41:00.:41:03.

why anyone think that is letting criminals run this industry is the

:41:04.:41:07.

best way to protect youngsters. Because they have no interest in

:41:08.:41:12.

protecting youngsters whatsoever. So let cynical businessman run t like

:41:13.:41:15.

they ran the tobacco industry. Thank you.

:41:16.:41:18.

A quiet day today. So the Prime Minister has today

:41:19.:41:33.

joined forces with the former General Secretary of the TUC,

:41:34.:41:36.

Brendan Barber, arguing that leaving poses a 'triple threat'

:41:37.:41:38.

to workers: on jobs, But this morning, in the Commons,

:41:39.:41:40.

eurosceptic Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin claimed

:41:41.:41:44.

that the government had done a dirty deal over the Trade Union Bill,

:41:45.:41:46.

watering it down in exchange for Union backing - and cash -

:41:47.:41:49.

for the 'Remain' campaign. It has been confirmed to me,

:41:50.:41:51.

through more than two independent sources,

:41:52.:41:54.

Number Ten instructed these concessions to be made,

:41:55.:41:55.

after the discussions This being true, would amount

:41:56.:41:57.

to the sale of Government policy This wreaks of the same

:41:58.:42:00.

as "cash for questions". This shows this Government really

:42:01.:42:06.

is at the rotten heart We're joined now by Patrick Minford,

:42:07.:42:08.

one of eight economists in favour of Britain leaving

:42:09.:42:17.

the European Union, who have said this morning that quitting

:42:18.:42:20.

the single market would boost national income and raise

:42:21.:42:22.

living standards. Would it not be fair to say when we

:42:23.:42:45.

have the IMF, EECD, the World Bank, Treasury, IMS, all saying that...

:42:46.:42:47.

That you represent a perfectly distinguish group of economists, you

:42:48.:42:50.

are outliars on this debate? When you are say we are outlayers, it is

:42:51.:42:53.

an impressive list but all Her Majesty's Government's friends which

:42:54.:42:56.

have been lined up to pitch in and how many have done any work on this?

:42:57.:43:02.

What we have done, is a lot of work on this, ape the glaring kind of

:43:03.:43:06.

hole in the modelling of the Government, in a nutshell, is that

:43:07.:43:10.

they have assumed we leave the tariffs of the EU in tact when we

:43:11.:43:15.

leave. Our point is this is crazy because the big gain from leaving

:43:16.:43:20.

the EU is to get rid of tariffs and go to unilateral free trade. That's

:43:21.:43:26.

the option. When you do that you unleash a dynamic of falling price,

:43:27.:43:29.

food prices for the poor, very important. Manufacturing prices.

:43:30.:43:33.

These are raised 20% by EU protectionism. Let me unpick that.

:43:34.:43:50.

Because that's interesting. First of all, does

:43:51.:46:02.

Our consumers are paying for it. All of these bodies you've spoken about

:46:03.:46:08.

have not looked to these point. The assumed wittingly carry on imposing

:46:09.:46:13.

the common external tariff on everybody outside. The entire point

:46:14.:46:19.

of leaving the EU is to gain freedom over our commercial policy, our

:46:20.:46:22.

trade barriers and move to free trade. Nick Clegg? I am perplexed.

:46:23.:46:30.

Is there any guest I will agree with? I didn't realise that was the

:46:31.:46:38.

exercise. I hear to disagree with everyone? I am perplexed because the

:46:39.:46:44.

single market is created by your former boss, Margaret Thatcher. If

:46:45.:46:48.

you pull out of it, but you just said you would. And then abide by

:46:49.:46:54.

WTO, it would absolutely hammer British export manufacturing,

:46:55.:46:58.

700,000 people working in the car many factoring industry in this

:46:59.:47:02.

country would suddenly faced 10% tariffs, the farming community would

:47:03.:47:06.

have 30% tariffs, the benchmark one Gisby kebab. You would have a very

:47:07.:47:10.

detrimental effect on manufacturing, yet the rest of our economy, so

:47:11.:47:15.

important to services. Would be a lot out of the actors we need to

:47:16.:47:19.

single market. I find it very curious free to do. You must read

:47:20.:47:23.

our report for the full answer but basically the single market does not

:47:24.:47:28.

apply much to services yet. Leslie that on one side because it's not

:47:29.:47:34.

that it is not complete. So we leave that on one side and it's small

:47:35.:47:38.

potatoes in this argument. That is the answer to your last point. On

:47:39.:47:43.

the first point, what you forget, who pays for all of this protection?

:47:44.:47:47.

The answer is the British consumer. In addition, the British consumer

:47:48.:47:54.

pays for higher prices, for German and French partners and German and

:47:55.:48:01.

French manufacturers. The British Digital carries an enormous load.

:48:02.:48:06.

For you see dust bodies are wiped out his element, they have forgotten

:48:07.:48:11.

that when we leave, the best policy is to get rid of all of this. Every

:48:12.:48:18.

first year student in those that free trade dominates protectionism.

:48:19.:48:23.

What the Treasury in their wisdom have neglected is that this move to

:48:24.:48:26.

free trade is beneficial to the British economy. You were talking

:48:27.:48:31.

about unilateral free trade, saying we should take with all of our

:48:32.:48:35.

tariffs, even if other countries keep their tariffs against us.

:48:36.:48:40.

Exactly. One of the things we make in our report is that trade

:48:41.:48:45.

agreements, which everyone is banging on about, have no effect on

:48:46.:48:49.

our welfare and trade. They divert trade, they do not affect the total

:48:50.:48:54.

of trade. This talk about trade agreements which Nick and his

:48:55.:48:57.

friends are banging on about is irrelevant. What matters is our

:48:58.:49:01.

tariffs because we are a small the world market. What we can influence

:49:02.:49:04.

is the price are consumers pay, and that is what we focus on. With all

:49:05.:49:10.

of these August bodies and great men like Nick have not looked at this.

:49:11.:49:17.

Where can I view as read about it? There is a pamphlet on our website.

:49:18.:49:28.

Thank you. Our poor children being let down by poor teaching? A report

:49:29.:49:32.

from the commission on inequality in education and the social market

:49:33.:49:35.

foundation, which is chaired by our guest of the day, Nick Clegg, says

:49:36.:49:39.

disadvantaged children are more likely to have less experienced

:49:40.:49:43.

teachers with fewer qualifications in more affluent ones. Adam has been

:49:44.:49:47.

asking people here in London to speak about the teachers who had a

:49:48.:49:51.

big impact on them. Who's your favourite and why? A man called Mr

:49:52.:49:58.

Rheingold, who was an ex-prisoner of war, fantastic teacher. And

:49:59.:50:05.

stimulated thoughts, ideas, and everything. I was always bottle of

:50:06.:50:11.

the class because I never listened. Never did any homework, and it was

:50:12.:50:14.

the maths teacher. I was always quite good at maths and she took me

:50:15.:50:19.

under the wing as she listened and I went up the class. That was a

:50:20.:50:24.

favourite. Mr locum for my English teacher. He just made everything

:50:25.:50:29.

fun. Is that the most important thing? Yes, because if you have fun

:50:30.:50:32.

while learning your reserved information better and learn to

:50:33.:50:39.

enjoy it more. He was yours? I didn't really like any of my

:50:40.:50:47.

teachers. At school? Mrs Hirst, English teacher, fantastic. Gave me

:50:48.:50:53.

a love of literature, brilliant. Stayed with me for my entire life.

:50:54.:50:57.

Do you think teachers can be taught how to be good? No, it would have to

:50:58.:51:02.

be Mr Farrell because he made economic relative and quite fun.

:51:03.:51:08.

Have you been using economic knowledge in the last few years? I'm

:51:09.:51:16.

a trainee accountant, so yes. You only Everything! I wouldn't go that

:51:17.:51:20.

far but I do treat him to the odd pint when I go back. You start out

:51:21.:51:24.

with him? Every Christmas. Who was your favourite teacher was like Ms

:51:25.:51:33.

Holden, the first time I ever liked will go up at conferences Lien the

:51:34.:51:37.

return of the Jedi. And she was a teacher. We are joined by the Vice

:51:38.:51:42.

the University. Nick Clegg Comey said this research of disadvantaged

:51:43.:51:49.

pupils get a grand slam of poor teaching. The research done by the

:51:50.:51:53.

social market foundation and a data lad that look at the latest facts

:51:54.:52:01.

and figures is that schools, catering for higher numbers of

:52:02.:52:04.

children and free school meals, which is the best if somewhat

:52:05.:52:09.

approximate way of doing it. It's the best measure of disadvantage,

:52:10.:52:13.

they tend to have teachers with law or no qualifications. Ohio numbers

:52:14.:52:20.

of teachers with low or no qualifications. Teachers without

:52:21.:52:23.

degrees in subjects are higher numbers of teachers without degrees

:52:24.:52:27.

in the subject they are teaching and higher turnover of teachers. For

:52:28.:52:31.

that reason a lower number of experienced. Those combined to

:52:32.:52:37.

create, despite the good efforts of the teachers there, lower quality

:52:38.:52:40.

teaching. This is long established that of all the things that affect a

:52:41.:52:45.

Chad Dawson at education, curriculum, class sizes, if it is

:52:46.:52:48.

called an academy or not. The quality of teaching remains at the

:52:49.:52:56.

most important thing. As we progress through this year along commission

:52:57.:52:59.

and peel away the different layers of the problem, it appears that the

:53:00.:53:05.

qualifications and longevity and experience of teachers in the

:53:06.:53:09.

classroom and schools need the most of their qualified teachers. It's

:53:10.:53:17.

the wrong way around, I understand. Having teachers who are qualified in

:53:18.:53:20.

the subject they are teaching, they should have good degrees or

:53:21.:53:23.

professional qualifications in that area. I was lucky when I was at

:53:24.:53:28.

school that my teachers had honours degrees in the areas they were

:53:29.:53:33.

teaching. Is it your arguments they also need a postgraduate certificate

:53:34.:53:36.

of education that they need to be qualified not just in their subject,

:53:37.:53:42.

but also as teachers? I think this is where can I do assure making to

:53:43.:53:45.

speak about this more expertly, the section defines the real because you

:53:46.:53:52.

can say I have a brilliant history teacher who never had qualified

:53:53.:53:55.

teacher status and they were the most inspiring teacher ever. That

:53:56.:53:58.

might be true and I'm sure there are lots of cases like that, but the

:53:59.:54:02.

general principle appears and the evidence is pretty overwhelming for

:54:03.:54:06.

it, that having a qualified teacher status does raise the standard and

:54:07.:54:09.

quality of teaching in the classroom. Let me put that point

:54:10.:54:14.

Anthony. Teaching is a profession, you characters page up and thing you

:54:15.:54:17.

can do it because you are well taught. I think Nick and the

:54:18.:54:21.

commission right to put a spotlight on teaching in the most deprived

:54:22.:54:29.

areas where you do need to have the best possible teachers and that

:54:30.:54:32.

stability that Nix speaks about because continuity, known faces and

:54:33.:54:38.

contrast and families as well. What about this qualified teaching status

:54:39.:54:42.

was not differ on that because qualified matters but you can do it

:54:43.:54:45.

the job. I wouldn't want to leave so many gaps in the King as people

:54:46.:54:52.

think an entirely out from my life that makes entire year out from my

:54:53.:54:55.

life, learning on the job does work. He said teaching as a profession.

:54:56.:55:02.

Learning on the job is a trade. That is what journalists do. We are a

:55:03.:55:05.

trade not a profession, learn on the job. What you just described is what

:55:06.:55:11.

traders, a profession get a qualification that makes, a

:55:12.:55:17.

profession get a qualification. It is different but it's not planned

:55:18.:55:22.

internet. You learn best, I did that year out, learned best from being in

:55:23.:55:26.

schools where as part of that there was lots of training in the school.

:55:27.:55:34.

What really helped me to learn how to teach as far as I can was to see

:55:35.:55:42.

other people teach and there's no alternative to getting in front of

:55:43.:55:49.

people. It is not either or. Professional qualifications involve

:55:50.:55:54.

on-the-job training. You are quite right. And if you do ask new

:55:55.:56:01.

teachers, one wonderful thing is you have lots of newly qualified

:56:02.:56:05.

teachers who actively want to go to the schools with the highest number

:56:06.:56:10.

of challenges. What goes wrong, they do not stay for some reason. And one

:56:11.:56:15.

of the things they say is that what they want most is a more experienced

:56:16.:56:22.

teacher in that same subject. To help them plan classes and so on.

:56:23.:56:26.

That is something some schools and Academies trust stew but it needs to

:56:27.:56:31.

be done on a more widespread scale and we should consider whether we

:56:32.:56:39.

pay them. I think I could walk into Nick's old school and teach a class

:56:40.:56:44.

on political science or economic some. Without training. For a little

:56:45.:56:51.

bit, at least. It would be much more difficult to go into a difficult

:56:52.:56:54.

school and teach subjects without advice on how to handle these

:56:55.:56:58.

children who have got all sorts of problems. But it is seeing the

:56:59.:57:05.

really gritty experienced teachers doing it, seeing the real-life

:57:06.:57:10.

interactions and seemed you do it, Nick talking about men touring

:57:11.:57:16.

important things. There is something different about teaching, you have

:57:17.:57:21.

to do it on the job. Trainee doctors get medical tuition and they go into

:57:22.:57:26.

the water. The other key thing is leadership, if you get great

:57:27.:57:31.

leadership, so we are setting up a leadership college because nothing

:57:32.:57:34.

matters more than a headship. Then the teachers whilst an and they will

:57:35.:57:38.

attract the best quality and retain them. You both agree on that, and

:57:39.:57:45.

where can we see this report? On the Social Market Foundation website.

:57:46.:57:46.

Thank you. Nick Clegg has talked his way out of

:57:47.:57:55.

having his knowledge tested on the late Prince. Can you remember the

:57:56.:58:00.

question for our quiz of the day. There's just time before we go

:58:01.:58:07.

to find out the answer to our quiz. As we've been hearing,

:58:08.:58:10.

Nick Clegg is a big music fan. But which '80s popstar did

:58:11.:58:14.

he dress up as when he was Was it - a) Mick Jagger,

:58:15.:58:16.

b) David Bowie, c) Freddie Mercury, Ziggy Stardust. We have a picture.

:58:17.:58:26.

Thank you for the picture of David Bowie, I was going to say! It could

:58:27.:58:32.

be anybody. That is very embarrassing, thank you very much.

:58:33.:58:34.

Good job it is not late-night television.

:58:35.:58:40.

And I will be on BBC One for This Week with Shelagh Fogarty,

:58:41.:58:43.

Anne McElvoy, historian Susanah Lipsscomb, Michael Portillo,

:58:44.:58:45.

Alan Johnson, Miranda Green and John Nicolson, from 11:45

:58:46.:58:47.

And I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big

:58:48.:58:56.

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