13/05/2016 Daily Politics

Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Questions are still being asked over whether the Conservatives broke

the law during last year's General Election campaign.

At least nine police forces and the Electoral Commission

are investigating whether some campaign spending was within

the rules, while today there are new claims that mail shots

Wales is still without a First Minister, with Labour

and Plaid Cymru deadlocked over who should get the job.

We'll be asking Ukip who they're going to back.

We've been to Strasbourg to find out whether the EU's deal with Turkey

over the migrant crisis could be close to collapse.

You may or may not think much of the EU, but how European do we really

feel? I don't know, I feel I am British

and English, that's it. All that in the next hour,

and with us for the first half of the programme today is Sam Coates

of the Times, a paper which, it was once said, is read

by the people who run the country. Well, we do count the Queen

as a loyal viewer. First today, the International

Monetary Fund are in London this morning for what was meant to be

the IMF's regular review But managing director

Christine Lagarde, flanked by Chancellor George Osborne,

devoted most of the press conference to what she said was the risk

to the UK economy if it votes She was asked by the BBC's

Kamal Ahmed why the IMF felt it was appropriate to intervene

in such a heated political We do that on a regular basis

when there is a major We do that because we need

to have a dialogue with authorities that are in power, in position

and can actually take ownership of their policies and explain

to us what their policies In the case of a referendum,

that is another matter. The authorities are not going to be

removed as a result of such matters. She did not intervene because there

is an election, but she feels free to intervene even though there is a

referendum, which many people may regard as even more important. How

does that work? She is going to intervene again within a week of the

referendum debate, because they will publish a full report flushing out

all of the fire and brimstone and fire consequences that will follow.

Is that fair? George Osbourne will be delighted that his friend has

promised to deliver for the Remain side. They will not be handing off

every word she says in Burnley today, I don't think this is a

moment where there will be a big bout, but it is a building block of

the Government and Remain case, there is a clean sweep of big

international institutions that think it would be risky to vote

Remain. She has a nice way with words, she says, I have talked to

people, it is between quite bad and very, very bad if we leave. What she

says is the IMF people have seen credible forecasts that we could

lose up to 10% of our GDP if we vote to leave. Is this not getting

ridiculous? We would be more serious than the great crash of 2008, which

did not take 10% from us, more serious than the great depression,

than the First World War. More serious than since the Romans landed

on the south coast, 10% of GDP. It is more than a lot of the other

forecasts we have had. It is a forecast... She had looked at what

she called credible forecasts that range from 1.5 to 9.5. We don't know

who the 9.5 is, which is key. The way that this works... At the IMF

has been a political institution, that is how it will be attacked by

the Leave campaign. You could make the case that it missed the

financial crisis. You could say it asked Britain to change course at

the point where the economy was recovering, and it did not need to.

You can make a good case that its track record is chequered. Leave

have put out a press release reminding people that Christina God

could face criminal charges, there are no big institutions that Leave

will not aim their bazooka at. They are playing the woman, not the ball.

The question for is today is, what does former cabinet minister

and Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith think

Is it a) traffic wardens, b) the Treasury, c) the Britain

Stronger In Europe campaign, or d) rain on bank holidays?

And later on in the show Sam will give us the correct answer.

Let's talk about the row over the Conservative Party's

2015 election expenses, a matter which reached

It's been a slow-burning story, but it's one that showing no

signs of going away, as Channel 4 News continues

If anything it's getting worse for the Tories.

Yesterday the Election Commission took the party to court to force

the party to hand over crucial documents which had been

requested but which the party had failed to release.

In April the Conservatives admitted failing to declare ?38,000

of General Election expenses after a Channel 4 News investigation

flagged up discrepancies in their election returns.

The party blamed an "administrative error" for failing to register

the accommodation costs of activists in their Battlebus 2015 operation,

which bussed young activists around the UK to campaign in target seats.

The Electoral Commission is conducting an investigation

into this expenditure as there are strict guidelines

on spending in individual constituencies.

But the Conservatives say the Battlebus was part of a national

campaign organised by Conservative central office, and therefore

did not form part of the spending limit for individual candidates.

In total, nine police forces are investigating whether election

spending for candidates was properly recorded.

Yesterday the Electoral Commission took the unusual step of making

a court application to force the party to disclose

And this morning we learn that police have been asked

to investigate whether letters sent in David Cameron's name

during the General Election campaign were also in breach

Well, Conservatives haven't exactly been falling over themselves to talk

about this story on air, but we did get the chance to ask

the former party chairman Grant Shapps about it

As chairman of the party, you allowed the expenses

of these campaigners, who were going to local

constituencies, staying in local hotels, you allowed them to be

charged to the national campaign and not the local campaign?

I was co-chairman, but compliance was not my side, the campaigning

side was my side, but not the finance.

You were behind the battlebus business.

The campaign, but not the compliance.

You did not wonder about the charges?

I am not one to shirk my responsibilities,...

Well, we're joined now by the BBC's Ross Hawkins.

He's been looking into this story, which, as we said, is the product

of a four-month-long investigation by Channel 4 News.

We have also been reporting it regularly. Tell us about the

mailshot development. The Liberal Democrats, one in particular, he

says there is a problem with letters that got sent in David Cameron's

name. They did not mention the constituency or say vote for a

certain candidate, but they mentioned the place. The

constituency. The letter mentioned the word Torbay repeatedly, and

says, you have to vote Conservative in Torbay when the election comes.

The point being made by the Liberal Democrat is, given as there was only

one Conservative in Torbay, that was in support of the local candidate.

The Conservatives say there is no mention of that candidate, and as

far as they are concerned, this counts as national spending. The

thunder -- you have a great big limit for national spending and a

limit for local spending. The Conservatives were acting on the

basis of understanding that they have done for years, it has been

suggested to me that other parties have done this for years as well.

The Channel 4 News investigation has challenged what the law means, and

the law is fantastically vague. The test as to whether spending is local

or not is whether it is with a view to or in connection with promoting

or procuring the candidate's election. My goodness, what could

that mean? It could mean a visit from a bus, it could not. The people

who will tested the police and the courts. This is an issue of criminal

responsibility. This is the distinction, if you overspend

nationally, the actual commission investigates you, and if you get it

wrong, you could pay fines, but it is not become an act. If you

overspend at a constituency level, some of the money you have dedicated

to your national campaign should have been logged with the local one,

that is a criminal offence, you can go to jail for that, and that is why

the police are investigating. Yes, and you could lose your seat. We

have two parallel bits of law, to parallel investigates Reebok is, at

both working around the one thing will affect the other, because if

you did not get the National return right, the local one could be wrong.

A whole bunch of police forces, who do not consider the final points of

electoral law, are having to make a complex and sensitive decision about

whether to ask for more time and fun to do this. If you were the one

police force who did not bother, you risk looking a Charlie, if you are

the four factors, quite a big risk on a very high profile place. A lot

of chief constables are having to think hard about the decisions they

make. The benchmark is quite high if you are the candidate, it has to be

shown, because your agent signs of the spending in the constituency,

that you knowingly sanctioned this extra spending for it to become

criminal. You have to knowingly have submitted a full Sutton. That might

be difficult. We are not lawyers, but you can go to a court case, find

out somebody had done this knowingly, because they were

following orders, the same orders that had held for previous

elections, and people would turn around and look at those people at

HQ, on whom there would not be a legal obligation, because they were

not the ones that signed off the local return. Keep on it, we shall

see where it goes. Well, we did naturally ask

the Conservative Party for an interview this morning,

but none was forthcoming. We also asked the Labour Party

if they wanted to speak to us, But I am joined from our Leeds

studio by the Liberal Democrat MP Greg Mulholland, he sits

on the party's campaigns committee, and from Northampton

by the professor of electoral law Can you give us a take on what

potentially are the election rules that have been broken and what are

the possible consequences? If one of the candidates did knowingly break

election law by either overspending on their election expenses or by

corruptly making a false declaration, there are quite serious

consequences. If they just overspend, they would be liable to a

fine and upon conviction they would be liable to a fine and liable to be

suspended, thrown out of politics of three years. If they made a full 's

return on their election expenses, in the way that somebody did

allegedly some years ago, they would be liable to two years in prison and

to be banned from sitting for Parliament for five years. There

would be a by-election? Yes. That may come to you, -- let me come to

you, is it not the case that all of the major parties use these

battlebus is locally but they charge them to the national spend? I don't

think that is the point. That is not the thrust of the excellent Channel

4 News investigation. They have found documentation involving

activists brought into some of these constituencies that showed up there

were indeed being asked to and giving information to campaign for a

local candidate in a local seat, and in the case of the letters

identified, it clearly says Torbay. I can tell you, from my years as a

candidate, I have always clearly been told by our party HQ that

something if it mentions the area of the constituency or the candidate,

it has to be declared on local expenses. That is a mistake that

needs to be love that. All the major parties use Battle

buses, all the major parties, but are you saying that the other

parties use these for the national campaign and the Liberal Democrats,

labour to your knowledge, whoever, they don't bus in activists to fight

for a constituency on the East Battlebuses? We don't get the vast

sums from business that the Conservatives do and we don't get

the large sums from trade unions that Labour do. It is about the

specific issue as to whether it is helping the local candidates. I

understand, an interesting and important distinction. I can see how

long this story has been running since it was first broken on Channel

4 News. Is there not a sense that the electoral commission needs to

have greater powers than the ability to access relevant data more quickly

and more easily? As I understand it, we are almost at the end of the

statute of limitations on this, they will need to ask for extra power,

for more time to investigate it? There are two points there. The

answer to your general question, should the electoral commission have

more power to investigate, most people in the investigation will say

yes but the issue about the statute of limitations, yes, under section

176 of the relevant act, representation of the people act,

the police get one year but they can go to the magistrates and ask for

that to be extended to a period of two years. That is my understanding

that that is under active consideration at the moment. Two

years is the cut-off. It's clear the police do the job properly and will

need to extend the time. How seriously are the Tories worried

about this? Perhaps not as seriously as you might think, judging from the

conversations I've had. The point that keeps being made to me is that

we think that the hurdle that the police need to prove is that people

knowingly and corruptly engaged in, as it were, fraudulent activity. If

it was the case that Conservative headquarters legal advice President,

what was believed to be the way that other parties campaigned all went

along and did similar things to this, they believe it's going to be

quite hard to mount prosecutions against individual MPs and force

by-elections. You have a slightly chequered history in terms of

electoral law enforcement in this country, the electoral commission's

own record isn't that part. I think the test is very significant. No

police force will want to be seen not to investigate, but when it

comes to charging I think that is a different matter. Let me get a

reaction from you, Mr Mulholland, to what Sam has just been saying. Those

are issues for the Conservative Party but I think the fact that they

are being dragged to the High Court because they weren't supplying

information, that shows there Zurich 's questions that need to be

answered. We need to get serious in capping donations per person per

year at ?10,000, which we want to do but the other two parties are not

prepared to do, they'll is walk away when we get to that stage in talks.

What is the significance of this complaint now about letters being

sent out in David Cameron's name mentioning the constituency? Is that

on the margins of wrongdoing or is that something that should be taken

seriously as well? I think that should be taken seriously because if

they are mentioning individual candidates in individual

constituencies, that ought to be... They don't mention the candidate but

they mention the constituency, Ross was telling us. Sorry, Professor.

The constituency... Well, I haven't seen the leaflets he was sending

out, but I think that is certainly something that there is a serious

question to be asked. The problem is, if it's got Conservatives and

the former constituency, who do you think the leaflet is in favour of?

It's not in favour of the Labour Party in that constituency. I think

even I can work that out, Professor! Can I come back to one break point?

Very briefly, please. One break point about the knowing, that is a

significant point. What I would say to that is when you look at the way

the law is tightened up following the Fiona Jones case, the

significant tightening of the law, I think knowing is going to be a lot

easier to prove than perhaps the Conservatives are suggesting. Thank

you very much to both of you for joining us, gentlemen. Sam, Grant

Shapps has gone. It is jacket hanging by sugary peg? I think Grant

Shapps is quite enjoying the discomfort that Andrew Feldman is

feeling over that and doesn't appear to be blinking at the prospect of

hanging out to dry over this I think if there were a problem with this

and there are prosecutions, I think that folds at Lord Fellman's door

which is bad news for David Cameron that he supplies funding for the

party. And they are friends going back to Brasenose College.

Now, let's talk about Wales, which is still without

a First Minister after dramatic scenes earlier this week which saw

Labour won most of the seats up for grabs at last

week's assembly election, that's 29 out of 60,

but that means it failed to secure a majority.

It meant that Labour leader Carwyn Jones needed support

from opposition groups to come back to govern as First Minister.

So on Wednesday, two candidates were put forward,

Mr Jones for Labour and Plaid leader Leanne Wood.

Labour, of course, backed Mr Jones, along with the sole Lib Dem,

whilst the Conservatives, Plaid Cymru and the seven

Ukip assembly members supported Ms Wood.

Today, Labour and Plaid Cymru hold talks to try and break the deadlock.

Assembly Members are expected to meet again next week to vote again.

If there's still no decision, they have until 2nd June to decide,

Well, yesterday the Daily Politics broke the news that two members

of the Ukip group were offering to back Labour over Plaid if certain

One of them is Mark Reckless, and he joins us now.

Welcome back on the programme. So have you made up your minds yet on

who you're going to support, you get? We haven't made up our minds

because it depends how much of our manifesto, I spent months writing

policies for the 20 devolved areas of Wales, we are able to influence.

We would like to see a change of First Minister because we think

democracy ultimately requires an alternation of parties who are

leaving. When you say we, what do you mean? You're part of Ukip or a

different part of Ukip? You are divided on this, aren't you? Seven

of us in the assembly were elected which we thought was a fantastic

result. We all want to intimate as much of the manifesto as possible.

One area of that is scrapping the Severn Bridge tolls. The Severn

Bridge act predates the devolution settlement. On the southern bridge,

the toll Plaza, it is within Wales and highways were devolved. You need

the bridge to go to the other side too. You may be asking the Cardiff

assembly to make a deal over which it might not have the power. The St

David's Day agreement and the cell commission said that the bridges

would be dealt with by matter of agreement between the Welsh

government and the UK Government. Ultimately if the Welsh government

makes it its priority that it wants to scrap the tolls, there may be a

cost to the taxpayer and we think a contribution to the maintenance is

appropriate. But ultimately we hope they will abolish them. You have

seven members in the Welsh assembly. Yes. How many are supporting Carwyn

Jones and how many are supporting Leanne would? We are all supporting

Leanne Wood, we all voted for her four days ago and if there was

another vote on Tuesday with no changes, we would all voted for her

against. So there is no splinter group trying to do a deal with

Carwyn Jones? No, there are people individual parties speaking to me as

an assembly member and no doubt speaking to others. Every time I

have those conversations, I say a key part of our plans is to scrap

the Severn Bridge tolls but also develop the East West business links

and infrastructure. I think we can benefit from being linked to the

stronger economy in Bristol and also... Other than a Time for

change, what do you have in on with Plaid Cymru? We want to scrap the

tolls and we want to have the blue route for the black route for

Heathrow which will create more money to spend in Wales. We would

like to have more money for local elections. They are all Plaid Cymru

policies as well as Ukip once. If you had to guess the way it works

out, who do you think will be the First Minister? I think it's quite

likely Plaid Cymru will come to some sort of deal with Labour. I don't

think there's any need for us to negotiate with them because we will

vote for Leanne, as we showed. There is a lot of overlap in those areas

I'm talking about. To improve the east-west links and scrap the tolls.

I think it's most likely that Plaid Cymru will cook up some sort of deal

with Labour but if possible we would like the opportunity to implement as

much of our manifesto as we could and we are willing to work with

anyone in Wales to do that. Is Neil Hamilton your new leader in Wales?

Yes, he was elected by the Cabinet. I voted for Nathan Kilcourse his

opponent, but Neil won the vote and we have a Democratic party and I

respect that. So he is the leader in the assembly? Yes. What is Nathan

Gill doing now then? He is the leader in Wales. So you have two

hopes but only seven members? -- two Popes! We have a group of seven in

the Welsh assembly and we will use it for the good of the people of

Wales. And we shall keep an eye on you as you do. Thank you very much,

Mr Reckless. We know you don't need to love

the EU in order to feel European. After all, many leading Leave

campaigners have strong Boris Johnson has French

and German ancestry, with a bit of Turkish

and Russian thrown in too. So do people in this country feel

that they have a bond, a cultural affinity,

with our continental neighbours? For the mood box today

we have come to Croydon, because a lot of this referendum

is about identity. Lots of people think

about themselves as British, but do they also think

of themselves as European? I dunno, I just feel I am

British and English. Do you feel European

at all? Does it surprise you that

lots of British people I think they have a very

strong national feeling. I think they have a very

strong national feeling. Not in a bad way, but they are proud

of their country, it is OK. They are two separate

things really, I think. I think the British,

mainly because we are an island, People are definite about that,

but if I asked a Frenchman or a German or a Spaniard,

they would feel European as well. We have all trade, we have all our

holidays in Europe, so we have Would you also say

you were a European? Welsh first, then European,

I would say. "I am holding my Welsh identity

but I see myself as European," I think we are all part of a bigger

world, and you can't No, I am not a European,

I am an Englishman and This result is unexpected,

but also quite complicated. No was winning clearly to start

with, then a number of people who live here but are European,

a third of those yeses were people who are Europeans

who live in Britain... That is all Brits who don't feel

European. It is almost ending

up with yes in front. I try not to predict these things,

I did not expect this result. That was Giles with the entirely

unscientific mood box. Well, we're joined now by one

man who feels European. He's the former MEP and father

of Boris, Stanley Johnson. And by one woman who doesn't,

the etiquette expert Liz Brewer. Put aside the mood box, according to

more scientific surveys 64% of British people don't feel any sense

of European identity. You are not winning. I am surprised with that.

We have to distinguish between feeling European and separating out

from the EU. This was European identity, it was carried out by the

European Commission. They would have liked a different result. 51%

increase, 43 Ireland, 36 France. We were the least. I am related to

Boris, you have seen in the introduction his European men

launch, a French word there, and etiquette is a French word. Do I

field European? I was born in England, I am British, but if I

field European, no, I feel English. You teach etiquette, which is a

French word. We have many French words,... It might be a Norman word.

Which I don't like! You ask me a question, what do I feel? I bought

myself an apartment in Berlin, I go there, I still don't field European,

I still feel very British. You feel like a Berliner! I feel exactly the

same as I do here. Why did you buy one? Investment! I feel European

because my ancestors came from Europe. One or two came from

Britain, my mother was half French, I have turkeys and Shastri, so I

feel I am rooted in this. Where you are brought up, you have tradition,

values, a way of behaviour, and it is different, we are different from

people overseas. Culture is different. The Romans were here for

400 years, the Normans, people were speaking French here until the 13th

or 14th century. Norman French, but still pretty good French. Not if you

came from Paris! The road to Rouen! Is there anything he could say to

convince you? You could be on a sticky wicket. You start talking

European, we are multinational. Mike Russell is the fact that when we go

overseas, we conform, and we learn how to behave in their culture. I

agree on one thing, the Englishness. I don't feel British, I feel

English. On that point, we will leave them to try to convince each

other. It's time now to find out

the answer to our quiz. The question was, what did

Iain Duncan Smith say Was it a) traffic wardens,

b) the Treasury, c) the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign,

or d) rainy bank holidays? It was a well-known left-wing

critique at the time. Coming up in a moment

it's our regular look at what's been For now, it's time to say goodbye

to my guest of the day. So, for the next half

an hour we're going to be We'll be discussing

the European Commission's decision to block a major mobile-phone

merger, the EU's deal with Turkey and what's been happening

in Portugal since the crash. First, though, here's our guide

to the latest from Europe No doubt it was in your diary,

who could forget Europe Day? People came together to mark

the annual celebration of peace and unity, even Nigel Farage

was caught humming Beethoven's Back in the real world,

ambassadors were dealing with the migrant crisis,

backing a European Commission plan to extend internal border controls

for a maximum of six months. New rules were passed to make it

easier for Europol to set up units to respond immediately

to terrorist threats. US officials are cheesed off

with one warning that the transatlantic trade deal

could be scuppered by plans to ban the sale of American-made products

labelled feta or champagne. It came under strain with 11

countries showing a yellow card to the European Commission

over its recent proposal to ensure equal pay

for workers posted overseas. And with us for the next 30 minutes

I've been joined by the Ukip MEP Jonathan Arnott and the Labour MEP

Richard Howitt. Let's take a look at one of those

stories in more detail, and that's the decision by a group

of Eastern European governments to flash a yellow card

at European Commission proposals to level wage differences

between local workers and those sent abroad within the EU,

known as posted workers. It is quite hard to make the yellow

card stick? This is the third time it has happened, but this is the

democracy in Europe, national parliaments having a voice. The deal

going to the British referendum is a red card. On this issue, I and my

party want action to stop exportation of rights. We will carry

on doing that we want that to change. But the fact that there is a

democratic debate going on, one that I believe we can win, on the

fundamental principle of equal pay for workers, whichever country you

are from, that is a big detection for low paid, insecure workers in

Britain, but I expect we can win that, but in a democratic fashion.

That is what European politics should be about. What do you say on

the ability of European Parliament 's to lay down a yellow card if they

don't like what is going on? As has been mentioned, it is only the third

time it has happened. It is a difficult procedure to implement,

very clunky. It takes at least nine countries to all within eight weeks

get something through their own individual parliaments to say to the

commission, we want you to think again. On one of the previous two

occasions when this happened, on the Public prosecutor 's office, the

commission said it would plough ahead with that kind of thing

anyway. We see that time and time again. Is it likely to happen again?

We will see, but if you take that example, we need to clamp down on

tax evasion, corruption, and Europe needs to have more teeth. You have

changed the goalposts. Having MPs voting against banking regulation

and cracking down on tax havens, if that really what people want? Nobody

is saying you should not crack down on tax havens. You voted against. We

should do that at Westminster, as a British Government, not something

which should be done at EU level. You moved the goalposts, because we

were having a discussion about the democratic issue, he said how

democratic it was, I pointed out it is not that democratic for the

commission to plough on anyway, and you moved on to the issue in son of

the principal. We shall see, and we thank Jeremy Corbyn for raising

this, because we would not have known what it was. Twice. We have

now followed it. Now, the ?10.3 billion deal to marry

O2 and Three was meant to be a final reshaping of Britain's

mobile phone market. It would have left the UK with just

three major mobile But the EU's competition

commissioner had other ideas and she's blocked the takeover

on the grounds it would reduce To tell us more I'm joined

by the BBC's technology Nice to see you again. This was a

merger between two British companies, largely affecting the

British market, what is the provenance of Brussels in this kind

of merger? Deals above a certain level to get referred to Brussels.

The BT/ EE merger, which was even bigger, that stayed in Britain

because just about everything to do with it was happening in Britain. O2

and Three are to foreign companies, O2 is owned by Spanish company, it

wanted to get rid of it, and Three is owned by a Hong Kong company, it

wanted to buy it. They were both keen to have this case decided in

Brussels, because they thought Brussels would be kinder to them

than our regulator of calm. That worked! Ofcom made its views very

strongly known in Brussels, it wrote a number of stiff letters, it said,

we don't want to go down from four operators to three, and in the end

Russells agreed. That has come as a shock to the whole telecoms

industry. This is not a case of this being approved by the British

competition authorities and then being overruled by the Brussels

competition authorities, this went to Brussels and the British

authorities are pretty happy with the result? They are very happy,

they seemed worried that Brussels would let it through against their

well. The telecoms companies are cross about this, they would rather

Europe looks at the market as a whole, how many players there are in

the market across Europe, rather than just one country will stop they

feel there needs to be consolidation. They don't feel they

are making enough money in Europe. They should look at my roaming

charges and wonder why! What will be spit companies do now? Is that it

over for the merger? It probably is, although there is talk of the Hong

Kong company appealing. The Spanish company will look for another

partner. It really wants shot of this business. It will hunt around,

there is talk of virgin's owner coming in for the business instead.

This is quite good news for British consumers, it keeps up choice and

competition for mobile phone users. In a lot of ways this is the same

principle of the previous discussion we have just had. We have had to go

to Brussels to get an answer for something, and in the end of the

same thing that Ofcom wanted in the first place. I believe that should

have been a decision for the UK to take, whether we have three or four

operators in the UK. There are a lot of issues surrounding that, and it

should fundamentally be a decision for the British Government. The fact

it has been decided by Brussels is a fundamental problem. It seems it was

decided by them because that is what the companies wanted. Putting that

aside, the number of mobile phone companies we should have operating

in Britain should be a matter for the Brits? It is a proposed merger

between a Spanish giant and a Hong Kong based giant. They are a good

company, they run Felixstowe port in my constituency. But it is for the

British market. The EU should not have a view about that? But have

also stepped in and stop similar mergers in Denmark and Italy. His

point is they should not be doing that either. I can see the point,

Brussels getting involved, if it is a matter of European wide

commission, -- competition, but if this was about the British market,

should it not be left to the British competition authorities? It does not

seem that the result would have been any different, but it is a matter of

sovereignty. It is another great example where what Britain wanted

one, we do win the argument. But it is in Europe's interest that we have

investment in mobile phone technology, we have gone to 3G, 24

the next generation will be five G, and there is an issue, what will get

the new infrastructure invested in by the big companies? It is

competition, not consolidation. All of the evidence shows that. I have

no problem with competition, the Duquesne should be taking those

decisions, and I believe the decision would have been the correct

one, had we decided it in the UK. We should not have to apply to Brussels

to ask whether they will... Some of these things are good

things, why don't we just wake up and recognise it? The average

telephone user is paying ?52 less per year on their mobile phone bill

because Europe cut the mobile phone charges. Come on. Look, on my phone

network, if I'm in Switzerland, if I'm in the USA there are no roaming

charges whatsoever. It's called the free market. It's bringing prices

down not just in the EU... How much do we pay to be part of the European

single market? Now, the deal struck between the EU

and Turkey aimed at easing Europe's migration crisis has had some

success, contributing to a major easing of the flow of people

across the Aegean Sea to Greece. But it's not exactly been

without controversy. Part of the deal was to give

Turkey's 79 million citizens visa-free access to the EU,

and the promise of progress on talks But this week it's looked under

serious strain, over Turkey's refusal to change

its laws on terrorism. There were a lot of conditions to

this Visa free travel laid out by the EU.

Our Jo Coburn has been in Strasbourg, finding out more.

Migrants crossing illegally from Turkey to Greece

The one for one deal so far slowing the influx

For every migrant deported to Turkey, a legitimiate Syrian

So far, 3 billion euros in aid and the prospect of Visa free travel

for its citizens in the Schengen area if the country

The question over whether those have been reached has opened up a huge

gulf between the commission and the European Parliament.

The Turkish visa issue was debated here in Strasbourg this week.

With general agreement that the country is still falling short

A majority in this Parliament has stated clearly that we believe

that over the last years, and especially if you look

during the last 12 months, Turkey is increasingly moving away

from meeting European standards, rather than doing what one

would expect from a candidate EU country, to move towards meeting

We have great concerns for the parliament when it

comes to the rule of law, democracy, press freedom.

There are five EU benchmarks that need to be reached by Turkey.

On corruption, data protection, reaching a deal with Europol,

judicial cooperation on criminal matters

Despite high-level talks between EU officials and Turkish ministers,

some MEPs are up in arms about the whole deal itself.

I think that the best way forward is to put our own house in order,

to solve ourselves the refugee crisis by putting in place European

border and coast guards, which we don't have,

by putting in place a new European asylum system not long the Dublin

system, and putting in place new ways of legal migration.

The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, has been

of literally rolling out the red carpet for Turkey

in exchange for the country's help to deal with

There are many MEPs here at the European Parliament who also

believe it brings the idea of Turkey's access into the EU

That claim has been dismissed by members of her political group.

She is really fighting for a good neighbourhood.

She is really working on the issue and tries to convince Turkey,

because Turkey is an important partner in the Nato partnership.

Turkey is important as a neighbour in between this area of Syria,

But MPs sceptical of the entire European project claim its leaders

are deliberately linking the migrant deal with talks for Turkey's EU

membership because they are looking ahead beyond the current crisis.

TRANSLATION: Juncker, Schultz and Merkel want to allow

Turkey into the European Union because it will mean cheaper

labour and lower wages for workers in many countries.

MPs are due to vote on the visa free travel deal on June 28,

Turkey's president has warned that if his country is not

given the Visa waiver, he will end the migration deal.

Is this EU, essentially German- Turkey deal, is it in danger of

unravelling? Is it sustainable? Doesn't fully respect human rights?

We don't know and we are asking some very tough questions about it. Do

you have to approve it, as a Parliament? We didn't have too

approve the initial deal, our job is to scrutinise it. We also

responsible for some of the cash which goes straight through the NGO

Global to the refugees to assist them. It has stopped people dying at

sea and we have to welcome that, surely. It has improved the welfare

of people, hungry and defenceless, in Turkey. RU worried about it? Of

course I'm worried about the deal. Some have pulled out because they

don't believe international humanitarian law is being respected.

Of course I'm worried. Is there a danger that this deal will unravel,

or in your view should it unravel, should we have done this deal in the

first place? My view is that the UK should vote to leave the European

Union. So what the European Union does in its deal with Turkey is up

to the European Union. While we're still in it, I have big problems

over the VZ deal and the amount of money we're sending to Turkey and

other candidate for the European Union. We're sending a lot of

British taxpayers's money out to those countries at the moment to

help them join the EU and I see that as a massive problem. In terms of

the deal itself, if the UK weren't in the European Union, I would say

it's a matter for the EU to decide what it wants to do. With the UK in,

I have to be concerned... We're not in Schengen, though. It certainly

does mean that it's a lot easier for people to get closer to the UK. But

the roles for Turkey, the Visa free waiver for Turks, and only about 7

million Turks have passports anyway, though it's not like it really is 79

million, it still doesn't get them into this country. Are you saying

that more Turks wouldn't apply for passports? I'm sure they might, but

that's quite a prolonged... I suppose what concerns the blues

this. For a longer read, the European Union rewarded Turkey with

access shouldn't talk 's and access to the European market. As Turkey

liberalised and became more modern and democratic and so on. Now it

seems to be rewarding Turkey as it becomes more theocratic, less

liberal and more authoritarian. We've seen the Prime Minister who

did this deal with the EU come he's been shunted out of the way by the

president, who may now be putting one of his relatives in as Prime

Minister. That's not good for the EU. Ultimately he wants to change

the constitution and have even more power in his hands. I'm not going to

hide those concerns but not simply is the Umana Terry and case, but in

cost terms it's cheaper to help refugees where they are now rather

than coming into Britain. In the local election campaign Ukip ran a

party political broadcast where they said 15 million Turks would come to

Britain by 2020. It's not true. You've heard the parliamentary

negotiator in your interview say this is something they're moving

further away from and not closer to. You cannot believe the claims that

they make. No one is saying that that many people... No he didn't. So

what are you saying? What we're saying is that if Turkey joins the

European Union, and more accession chapters are being opened, there

would be more rights for them to come. We can't say how many would

come but we can say how many had the right to come. Provided we don't

veto it, of course, and that the French don't have a referendum, both

of which are quite likely. It's something that's only going to

happen if ever in the long-term... Using it in this referendum is

simply to scare people. The problem with vetoes, of course, is that once

you give it up you can't get it back. You've got to trust Cameron

not to give it up, Corbyn... Only recently the Prime Minister seemed

to be a big fan of Turkey joining the EU and it went to Portugal

because it was the third Euro country area to have to ask for a

bailout after Greece and Ireland, following the banking crash in 2008.

This was done in 2009. Portugal was the third Euro-area

country to have to ask for a bailout after Greece and Ireland

during the economic crisis of 2009. And it's still facing low

growth and struggling In the latest in our

Meet The Neighbours series, Adam Fleming has been

to find out more. I suppose this is Portugal's

Birmingham, its second city, Porto. During the Eurozone crisis Portugal

was bailed out by the EU to the tune of 78 billion euro,

?62 billion, on the condition they Portugal left the bailout

programme two years ago, They are underemployed architects

who now host walking tours First stop, a new hotel,

built with EU funds. We are not blaming this hotel

in particular, or even This hotel had over 5 million euros

in tax money from Europe. At least in Portugal there is not a

debate on this, there is not a general conversation about what are

we supposed to do with tax money. Instead, they would rather see this

old car-parts factory spruced up There will be an informal school,

some places to take care a workshop for wood

and metal in the middle. On the way, you see

a lot of empty shops. The thing that upsets them the most,

though, is how many of their I feel sad that so many people

had to go. That I don't like. Because I don't

think it's smart, as a country logic.

We desperately need those same people that we lost.

Things are looking much, well, rosier here.

One partnership owns some big port brands.

It is a British-run company that has done OK

We bought a number of businesses, we launched businesses.

People thought I was insane to be launching a five-star luxury hotel

in 2010 in the middle of the crisis, but the truth is people

want to travel, people want to explore and discover,

and this is what you can do here in Portugal.

Yes, recession is tough, but it is in those environments

where good businesses tend to do well and the weaker businesses tend

Although politics here is now more of a completed cocktail,

a coalition government led by socialists, propped up

by communists, with a right-wing president, and the European

Commission keeping a close eye on what is going on.

Adam living the life there in Portugal. The Eurozone crisis never

quite goes away, does it? At least the pain for the people most

affected. The Portuguese Socialists have struck up a good relationship

with British Labour and Jeremy Corbyn personally, and you have a

minority government there that is going to be out of the bailout

scheme this year and which has replaced a Conservative government

that brought in all the cuts but the debt went up. So it's a better news

story than we think. OK, we shall see. That's it for now. Thank you

for joining us, come back and see us soon am a goodbye for now.