12/05/2016 Daily Politics


12/05/2016

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Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:38.

High noon in the Welsh Assembly as members are locked in a stand-off

:00:39.:00:43.

But this programme understands Ukip's leader in Wales

:00:44.:00:49.

is in talks about a deal to throw his weight behind Labour

:00:50.:00:54.

and split with the rest of the Ukip group.

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We'll have the latest on this breaking story.

:00:58.:01:00.

The Government unveils a major overhaul of the way the BBC is run:

:01:01.:01:04.

an external regulator, more transparency on star pay

:01:05.:01:08.

and licence fee guaranteed for another 11 years.

:01:09.:01:13.

New analysis shows a sharp increase in short-term immigration from the

:01:14.:01:22.

EU which isn't being picked up by official immigration statistics.

:01:23.:01:25.

So, are we underestimating the true numbers coming here?

:01:26.:01:32.

And, we speak to Bristol's new mayor on his plans for the city

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And with us for the whole programme today is the Guardian Columnist,

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ITV has announced it will host the it. V debate featuring David Cameron

:01:51.:02:13.

and the Ukip leader Nigel Farage ahead of next month's vote. But the

:02:14.:02:19.

two men won't go head-to-head. They'll appear one after the other.

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However, the vote leave group has accused ITV of a stitch-up. Because

:02:25.:02:30.

Mr Farage belongs to a rival eurosceptic cap pain and not the

:02:31.:02:33.

Vote Leave campaign. Now to our correspondent. What's the

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significance of all this? In is about a debate scheduled to

:02:39.:02:48.

take place on 7th June. It will be David Cameron answering questions

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from a studio audience and then Nigel Farage answering questions

:02:52.:02:56.

from a studio audience. They wouldn't be going head-to-head.

:02:57.:03:00.

Still, Vote Leave unhappy with what's going on. That's because,

:03:01.:03:07.

they don't really like Nigel Farage. Vote Leave being the official Out

:03:08.:03:13.

campaign, Nigel Farage had hoped his would be the official campaign. That

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didn't happen. Vote Leave concerned Nigel Farage is at best a divisive

:03:19.:03:23.

character who would butt off as many undecided voters as he would

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persuades them to vote to leave. That's what they're worried about.

:03:28.:03:31.

They have issued something of a rather ominous warning to ITV

:03:32.:03:38.

suggesting that ITV had effectively joined the official In campaign it

:03:39.:03:42.

there will be consequences for its future saying the people of Number

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Ten won't be there for long. ITV deny any stitch-up and say Nigel

:03:48.:03:51.

Farage has been campaigning to leave the EU for the past 20-odd years.

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Nigel Farage has hardly pulled any punches this morning.

:03:58.:03:58.

The official Vote Leave campaign are run by people who have tried

:03:59.:04:01.

tried to exclude me from everything which, frankly, is ludicrous.

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We cannot win the referendum if all we see are Conservative voices.

:04:06.:04:08.

I'm delighted we've six Cabinet Ministers.

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But we need Ukip, Labour and trade union voices.

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We need a degree of unity if we're going to work together.

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I'm sad to see what they've said about me.

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And, frankly, Michael Gove is chairman of Vote Leave,

:04:23.:04:29.

I would say to Michael, get a grip on your staff.

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The vote leave campaign would like someone like Boris Johnson, Iain

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Duncan Smith or Michael Gove to debate against the Prime Minister.

:04:46.:04:48.

It works out well for Downing Street. David Cameron wants to avoid

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too much blue on blue action. He doesn't want to debate those senior

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Conservative figures. It is hardly good for Tory unity. There are other

:04:57.:05:01.

debates in the offing. Channel 4, Sky and the bean with that huge

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debate planned all coming up. Noshiateses still underway. I

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suspect we haven't heard the end of all of this. These are usually the

:05:10.:05:13.

threats politicians make against the BBC. It's a least a change to have

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ITV in the frame instead. Takes the pressure off us for at least a day.

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This really suits the Prime Minister really well though, the Prime

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Minister gets to be the voice of Remain but rather than being up

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against the Michael Gove or Boris Johnson, he gets to define himself

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against Nigel Farage. He may be right or wrong but he thinks that

:05:37.:05:41.

good for his side of the argument? It goes back to this idea of just

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how divisive and how toxic is Nigel Farage as a figure for the Leave

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campaign. Nigel Farage insisted he's quite good for those indecideds. He

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plays well in the north and Midlands in the way maybe Boris Johnson

:05:56.:06:00.

doesn't. There's a feeling this morning from the In campaign,

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Downing Street, that Nigel Farage issing a of a toxic figures and

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actually, to have him as the main point of argument against him

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possibly a good thing for the Remain campaign. That that's the point the

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official Vote Leave campaign are trying to make.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz and it seems that yet again

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the all powerful Daily Politics has notched up another

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This time our fearless journalism has forced the Eurovision Song

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Contest to back down on one of their more outlandish directives,

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so our question for today is....what has eurovision

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B) Allowing people to throw underwear on stage?

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C) Allowing the show to be presented by yours truely?

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D) Repealing its ban on the Welsh flag?

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At the end of the show, Polly will give us the correct answer.

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Don't do it now. Do you have a suspicion? I think I it's probably

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not knickers! Don't go there yet! Sorry! I'll mark your card closer to

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the time. You may be surprised. Now, back in February we covered

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the curious discrepancy between official migration

:07:24.:07:26.

statistics and the level of National Insurance numbers

:07:27.:07:30.

issued to EU nationals. In recent years, there has been

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a sharp rise in National Insurance numbers for EU nationals which has

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led to claims that the true level of immigration from the EU

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is being underestimated. The government has been under

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pressure to explain why the two measures have been so different

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for so long. This morning, the Office

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for National Statistics One of those who has been pushing

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for answers is the economist Jonathan Portes, who has been

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pouring over the data. He's always been pouring over this.

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Jonathan, it seems, we've just got this, the ONS is saying the main

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explanation for the diversion is the people getting NI numbers are coming

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in just for a short time, less than a year, perhaps, to work and they

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don't show up in the migration figures. Do you buy that as largely

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the explanation? I buy it's largely the explanation. I agree with the

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ONS on that. They have gone good work on that. I don't buy it is the

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only explanation. I have a professional disagreement with them

:08:55.:08:57.

on that. What they published today suggests there is some degree of

:08:58.:09:02.

undercounting of long-term migration from the rest of the EU and some of

:09:03.:09:07.

the figures they've published today, in my view, support that. It is not

:09:08.:09:12.

the main explanation. It's not the case all the divergence is

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undercounting. Most is short-term migration. There still remains, in

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my view, some undercounting of long-term counting from EU member

:09:24.:09:26.

states in these new statistics. Do we have any idea of the scale of

:09:27.:09:31.

undercounting. Let's give our viewers of the figures. In the year

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to June 2015, quite typical of recent years, we counted 260,000

:09:38.:09:42.

migrants coming in from the EU. In other words, people coming here for

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over a year. But we gave out 697,000, almost 700,000 national

:09:50.:09:53.

insurance numbers. That is a big discrepe Si. Do we -- discrepancy.

:09:54.:10:00.

Do we have an idea what scale of that is accounted for by the ONS

:10:01.:10:04.

explanation and how much that leaves? A much better idea. That

:10:05.:10:09.

date is too recent to be analysed in any detail. Some of the people

:10:10.:10:14.

you're talking about there don't know if they're staying for three

:10:15.:10:18.

months or three years. They've only just arrived and not made their

:10:19.:10:24.

minds up, quite legitimately. If we go back to 2013/14, we get a better

:10:25.:10:29.

idea. There, we see the ONS migration statistics suggest about

:10:30.:10:37.

74,000 -- 740,000 people came in. Whereas the figures recorded are a

:10:38.:10:41.

bit fuzzy, suggest the numbers might be somewhere in the region of

:10:42.:10:45.

900,000 to one million. There's a lot of uncertainty about that. There

:10:46.:10:50.

are ledge the mat disagreements. I would say on the basis of this,

:10:51.:10:53.

there is some degree of undercurrenting. We're talking not

:10:54.:10:57.

more than tens of thousands but not many hundreds of thousands, if that

:10:58.:11:02.

makes sense. I wonder, Jonathan, if part of reason for the

:11:03.:11:09.

undercounting, is the international passenger survey, which is how we do

:11:10.:11:14.

this, is it fit for purpose? It was really invented to work out how many

:11:15.:11:18.

visitors and tourists were coming to this country. Do you have a problem

:11:19.:11:22.

with your sound? Can you hear me all right? No, he can't hear me. He's

:11:23.:11:30.

actually all of ten yards away. We've naturally lost the sound. If

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he was in Baghdad, we'd probably have him. We'll come back to you.

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What do you make of this? It is interesting. There's always been a

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lot of confusion about national insurance numbers. Frank Field, the

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great expert on this, long before he was much interested in migration

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always complained about the need to clean up national insurance numbers.

:11:52.:11:56.

They're very, very baggy. It's not quite clear, people can work for a

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bit, go away. It's not clear what their significance is. This is

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interesting. How many people do come in. For short-term agricultural

:12:04.:12:08.

work, summer season. Tourist work. It's hard to know how much. My

:12:09.:12:11.

understanding is still, and Jonathan, we have him back, we'll

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get him to mark our card on this. We know the number of NI numbers the

:12:20.:12:23.

Government release but not the number of NI numbers that are

:12:24.:12:28.

active. That's true. We should know that to be in formed, shouldn't we?

:12:29.:12:34.

I think we should. More information and more information and we can

:12:35.:12:37.

analyse it better. But I do think it's interesting how many people

:12:38.:12:42.

come here, work for a while in some God awful car wash, sleeping ten to

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a bedroom and go home again with a little bit of money in their pocket.

:12:47.:12:53.

But you know, I'll come back to Jonathan in a second, will be said

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by the Leave, the official count of migration from. EU under estimates,

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there will be an argument about how much, underestimates the numbers

:13:05.:13:08.

coming here? I think Jonathan is the man who knows. If he says they are

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underestimating it, I'm sure he's right. He's kept his finger most on

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the pulse. Jonathan, you can hear me again now? I can, yeah. What I was

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saying to you was is this the international passenger sir Vai,

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which is how we measure people coming in, is it really fit for

:13:29.:13:32.

purpose in this age of mass migration? It was originally

:13:33.:13:37.

invented, as I understand it, to mesh you are the number of --

:13:38.:13:41.

measure the number of visitors coming here. The percentage within

:13:42.:13:46.

that survey that are migrants short or long-term, is very small. Small

:13:47.:13:50.

changes can make a huge difference to the outcome of the survey. Is

:13:51.:13:55.

that fair? Well, it's fair. I wouldn't say it's not fit for

:13:56.:13:59.

purpose. It's the best thing we have. If you look at this in the

:14:00.:14:03.

round, it hasn't performed that badly. We may have been

:14:04.:14:09.

underestimating the number of migrants in recent years. It is the

:14:10.:14:13.

one survey which gives us the best picture of what's happening today.

:14:14.:14:18.

We've stopmented that with some of the data held on Government systems.

:14:19.:14:23.

There may have been some undercounting. But we shouldn't

:14:24.:14:28.

chuck it in the bin. To follow up on what Polly was saying, going to the

:14:29.:14:32.

wider picture. One thing which is very interesting, the reason all

:14:33.:14:36.

this came about, the reason I started poking around in these

:14:37.:14:39.

numbers, was the Prime Minister's claim that 40% of recently arrived

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European migrants were claiming benefits in some form or other. One

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thing this does do, it is buried in a footnote towards the end, it

:14:51.:14:54.

explodes that. The Prime Minister's comments were wrong. He should

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apologise and correct. Looking at this how much, tax EU migrants pay

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during the period, it shows once again what I and others have said

:15:06.:15:10.

for some considerable time, which is EU migrants, however many of them

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there are, they don't come here to claim benefits. They come here to

:15:15.:15:19.

work and make a strong positive contribution to the economy. Are we

:15:20.:15:24.

able to tell what percentage of EU migrants take either in work or out

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of work benefits and combine the two? Well, to be honest, there are

:15:29.:15:34.

still details to be worked through there. We know it is considerably

:15:35.:15:41.

less than the Prime Minister's 40%. He was assuming there were half a

:15:42.:15:45.

million migrants when he made that calculation. The HMRC calculations

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suggest it is more like a million. He may have been off by a factor of

:15:51.:15:52.

two. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan Portes. I think

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this is good to be a big story over the next couple of days.

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For more on this we're joined by Ukip's immigration

:16:04.:16:06.

spokesman Steven Woolfe, who's in Strasbourg.

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And Polly Toynbee is still with me here.

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Steven Woolfe, what is your take on the ONS explanation? Well, good

:16:10.:16:20.

morning to everybody, I think these are pretty damning figures for the

:16:21.:16:24.

government. I think it blows out of the water two things. First of all,

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as everybody knows, they cannot control migration coming into the UK

:16:30.:16:32.

from the European Union. It also blows out of the water that they

:16:33.:16:36.

have any control of understanding how to calculate those people

:16:37.:16:41.

working here and claiming benefits as Jonathan has just said. What we

:16:42.:16:45.

have is a failure at the heart of government encapsulating an

:16:46.:16:49.

understanding one of the most important things that matters to

:16:50.:16:51.

people in the UK at the moment, immigration. But it seems that what

:16:52.:16:57.

has come out from the ONS, and the figures will be pored over, but it

:16:58.:17:06.

does suggest that most of the discrepancy is explained by

:17:07.:17:11.

short-term migration, here and gone within a year, so they do not count

:17:12.:17:20.

on the European definition. The UN definition of migration. And the

:17:21.:17:22.

overwhelming number of migrants coming here come here to work, not

:17:23.:17:32.

to live on benefits. I think what it shows is the reliance on a group of

:17:33.:17:37.

hard-working people standing at airports with clipboards trying to

:17:38.:17:41.

assess whether people are here for the wanton or not is not really the

:17:42.:17:44.

most modern way of translating whether people stay here the long

:17:45.:17:49.

term. Even just a simple example, some of the people they say are

:17:50.:17:53.

short-term could come here and work this year for a short term, go home

:17:54.:17:59.

and come back next year for work. We're not alkylating that. When you

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start to analyse the fact that you are relying on clipboards rather

:18:04.:18:07.

than proper assessment through technology, if we can count people

:18:08.:18:11.

going on the tube is surely we should be able to assess who is

:18:12.:18:14.

coming in and out of the country. We must address that. And I think the

:18:15.:18:19.

argument is always suggested that those people who come from Europe do

:18:20.:18:22.

actually work in the European Union. And this will be even greater when

:18:23.:18:28.

we get the living wage, the ?9 here will act as a pool for people coming

:18:29.:18:32.

from poorer countries, where wages are lower. But as we know from the

:18:33.:18:42.

Bank of England's statistics, and from the UN, we know that

:18:43.:18:45.

large-scale migration, in the way that we have it at the moment,

:18:46.:18:50.

pushes down wages. And I know it is arguable, but there is some level of

:18:51.:18:55.

job displacement. That is an important factor for people in the

:18:56.:18:58.

economy, where we have a large amount of austerity. Let's leave it

:18:59.:19:04.

there, there is such a long delay on the wind that it is hard to have a

:19:05.:19:07.

conversation with you, but I am grateful to you for turning up and

:19:08.:19:11.

asking these questions. It is early days and the figures have just come

:19:12.:19:15.

out. It is very complicated but we will be poring over them and getting

:19:16.:19:18.

more detail and we will come back to this subject, to work out if we have

:19:19.:19:23.

a clearer picture of the national insurance figures and the migration

:19:24.:19:27.

figures from the EU. These are figures that have just come out. And

:19:28.:19:31.

even we cannot get over them that quickly.

:19:32.:19:34.

Now, dramatic scenes in the Welsh Assembly yesterday.

:19:35.:19:36.

An informal coalition of Plaid Cymru, the Conservatives

:19:37.:19:39.

and Ukip successfully blocked a vote to re-appoint Carwyn Jones

:19:40.:19:43.

as the country's First Minister, following the Welsh Assembly

:19:44.:19:46.

elections last week in which Labour lost its overall majority.

:19:47.:19:51.

However, this programme understands that Ukip's leader in Wales -

:19:52.:19:54.

he's called Nathan Gill - has been in talks with Labour

:19:55.:19:56.

about giving his support to Carwyn Jones in return

:19:57.:19:58.

for a proposal to scrap the tolls on the Severn Bridge.

:19:59.:20:01.

Now, if this were true, it would deny the chance

:20:02.:20:04.

of Plaid Cymru's leader becoming Wales's First Minister.

:20:05.:20:11.

We can talk now to Simon Thomas, an Assembly Member for Plaid's Cymru.

:20:12.:20:17.

-- Plaid Cymru. Simon Thomas, have you heard that Ukip is about to do

:20:18.:20:26.

this is maybe even going to split on the matter? No, we have not heard

:20:27.:20:32.

anything formally about that but it does not surprise me. Ukip have

:20:33.:20:36.

clearly been split since Neil Hamilton challenged the leadership

:20:37.:20:39.

of the group. But Nathan Gill remains the leader in Wales. Labour

:20:40.:20:44.

have a clear choice, now, of course, they can do a deal with individuals

:20:45.:20:48.

like Nathan Gill and Kirsty Williams or they can talk to the mainstream

:20:49.:20:51.

parties about being a proper minority government with a set of

:20:52.:20:55.

policies about which there is consensus. How much would Leanne

:20:56.:21:01.

Wood like to be first Minister? It would be a minority administration

:21:02.:21:05.

of some kind, but does that not have some dangers? Yes, and there is

:21:06.:21:13.

always danger when you take risks in politics but we set up Leanne Wood

:21:14.:21:20.

as a alternative to Carwyn Jones yesterday. Both parties are talking

:21:21.:21:25.

about minority administration is, having to deal and negotiate with

:21:26.:21:28.

other parties in the assembly. Clearly Labour have the largest

:21:29.:21:32.

number, but they have to have a majority. In a parliamentary system,

:21:33.:21:37.

we would expect them to try to form a majority of confidence in the

:21:38.:21:40.

parliament, and that has not happened yet. That is why yesterday

:21:41.:21:45.

we did not come to an agreement. What kind of arrangements did Plaid

:21:46.:21:50.

Cymru have with Ukip to get this vote yesterday? None whatsoever. We

:21:51.:21:56.

told them we were putting up Leanne Wood as First Minister, and they

:21:57.:22:00.

took their own decision as to whether they would support him or

:22:01.:22:14.

Leanne Wood. This is the first election since the proper parliament

:22:15.:22:16.

has been established in Wales, and I think we are starting to be more

:22:17.:22:21.

interesting. A Plaid Cymru administration would certainly shake

:22:22.:22:25.

things up. Many may regard this as more interesting. But it could also

:22:26.:22:29.

be rather unstable if you are dependent on conservative and Ukip

:22:30.:22:37.

votes. What you have just described, Leanne Wood is a pro Europe

:22:38.:22:43.

socialist. Depending on the Conservatives and Ukip does not

:22:44.:22:50.

strike me as a firm base. I think that is a fair point. But neither

:22:51.:22:59.

does a Labour coalition, with support from the Lib Dems. We saw

:23:00.:23:03.

yesterday that they cannot you get support. It is beholden of the

:23:04.:23:10.

opposition to see whether we can reach out and get consensus with

:23:11.:23:15.

other parties on some of these issues, including the health service

:23:16.:23:18.

and the steel crisis, things we need to move upon. At the moment we have

:23:19.:23:22.

to be frank. We did not get a consensus on that yesterday and

:23:23.:23:27.

neither do the Labour Party. All things should be discussed but I

:23:28.:23:31.

would be amazed if the Labour Party were prepared to do a deal with an

:23:32.:23:34.

individual Ukip member like Nathan Gill and it just shows you the level

:23:35.:23:38.

of desperation of the Labour Party at the moment. We will come back to

:23:39.:23:43.

you for one minute to mark your card on how do you think this will play

:23:44.:23:48.

out. It sounds quite obligated. What is your take on this, Olly? It is a

:23:49.:23:54.

difficult situation. It looks utterly absurd for Plaid Cymru to be

:23:55.:24:02.

going in there with the consent of Ukip. If there is a split in Ukip,

:24:03.:24:10.

we're not surprised because they are right back. I was on to say that the

:24:11.:24:16.

Hamilton was an unexploded bomb but he is a completely exploded bomb. I

:24:17.:24:21.

think you can expect a lot of interest from the Welsh Assembly. It

:24:22.:24:26.

does make it interesting. Let me go back to Simon Thomas. Tell us, how

:24:27.:24:31.

do you think this will work out come up and what will be and when will it

:24:32.:24:38.

come, the Welsh administration? We have three weeks to agree this,

:24:39.:24:41.

otherwise there will be a new election. I don't think anyone is

:24:42.:24:45.

looking for a new election. We are all very well paid, and I think the

:24:46.:24:49.

people of Wales expect us to reach an agreement. But that agreement has

:24:50.:24:53.

two reflect that no single party won a majority and it has to reflect

:24:54.:24:57.

that no single party can rule and have a First Minister and a

:24:58.:25:01.

government without the consent of at least one other substantial party.

:25:02.:25:07.

And I think that goes beyond individuals and it is beholden on

:25:08.:25:13.

Plaid Cymru to talk with other parties, if necessary the other

:25:14.:25:18.

parties about wider issues including revitalising democracy. Whatever the

:25:19.:25:21.

government is suggesting we need to hold them to better scrutiny than we

:25:22.:25:26.

have done in the past. Thank you for joining us. A fascinating situation

:25:27.:25:27.

in Cardiff. World leaders are meeting

:25:28.:25:30.

in Central London today for an anti-corruption summit

:25:31.:25:32.

organised by the British Government. David Cameron says he called

:25:33.:25:34.

the summit because corruption is "the cancer at the heart

:25:35.:25:37.

of so many of the world's problems". The Prime Minister has also

:25:38.:25:42.

announced a raft of policies For example, foreign owners of UK

:25:43.:25:45.

properties will be forced to join a so-called "public register

:25:46.:25:54.

of beneficial ownership". That is so that people will be able

:25:55.:26:06.

to see who is behind the company, who owns that particular property.

:26:07.:26:10.

Let's hear what the Prime Minister had to say at the summit this

:26:11.:26:12.

morning. If we want to see countries escape

:26:13.:26:18.

poverty and become wealthy, we need to tackle corruption. If we want

:26:19.:26:23.

countries that have great natural resources, to make sure that they

:26:24.:26:27.

use those to the benefit of their people, we need to tackle

:26:28.:26:30.

corruption. If we want to defeat terrorism and extremism, we have to

:26:31.:26:33.

recognise that corruption and lack of access to justice can often be

:26:34.:26:36.

the way that people are driven towards extremism. So that was the

:26:37.:26:42.

Prime Minister kicking off the anti-corruption conference.

:26:43.:26:44.

Martin Tisne is a transparency expert

:26:45.:26:48.

who's been advising the government on their anti-corruption policies.

:26:49.:26:51.

He joins us from the summit at Lancaster House in London.

:26:52.:26:56.

Just down the road from here. Let's come to you right away. What could

:26:57.:27:05.

be the single most important thing to come out of this summit? I think

:27:06.:27:11.

the single most important thing to come out of the summit is to have a

:27:12.:27:17.

change so that we know who the real owners of anonymous companies are.

:27:18.:27:20.

What we need is to create a global war so it is simply no longer

:27:21.:27:26.

possible to hide behind a company. -- global law. At this point in time

:27:27.:27:32.

anonymous companies are getaway car for criminals and terrorists. If you

:27:33.:27:36.

steal ?100, you can put it under your mattress but if you steal ?10

:27:37.:27:40.

million, what did you do? You set up an anonymous company and buy a big

:27:41.:27:45.

house in Notting Hill. The UK commitment is fantastic, which is

:27:46.:27:49.

that foreign countries seeking to enter into contracts with the UK

:27:50.:27:52.

government will need to disclose their owners are. The real point of

:27:53.:27:57.

the summit is to have systematic global action on this, so that we

:27:58.:28:01.

change the law. Otherwise the risk is a game of whack a mole. We do it

:28:02.:28:07.

and others don't and the companies will register in other

:28:08.:28:09.

jurisdictions. This is a really exciting moment, the first time in

:28:10.:28:13.

the 21st century that global leaders at a high level have come together

:28:14.:28:17.

specifically to fight corruption. Last year the New York Times

:28:18.:28:24.

reported that 85 billion pounds of property had been bought in London

:28:25.:28:34.

alone with cash. Would what is being proposed bring more transparency to

:28:35.:28:39.

transactions like that? Absolutely. I think there are two things going

:28:40.:28:43.

on here. Transparency is good but not in and of itself. What we need

:28:44.:28:48.

is prevention. So we are hoping that it will make it much less likely

:28:49.:28:51.

that it will act as a deterrent for those who are using these ill gotten

:28:52.:28:56.

gains, this cash to buy properties in London and elsewhere. But the

:28:57.:28:59.

second point is equally important. We are hoping that we will have

:29:00.:29:03.

information not only on the real owners of companies but also on

:29:04.:29:07.

contracts. 60% of bribes in the whole world come from public

:29:08.:29:11.

contracting. Those companies, much of the money comes from public

:29:12.:29:19.

contracts and so that is why we welcome the announcement by the UK

:29:20.:29:21.

and also by the Nigerian government to shine a light on public

:29:22.:29:23.

contracts. That means that the information will go to the right

:29:24.:29:26.

people at the right time in the right format, and leads to

:29:27.:29:31.

corruption prosecutions. There are two angles, prevention, deterrence,

:29:32.:29:35.

people will be less likely to buy properties in London with money from

:29:36.:29:38.

ill gotten gains, and also law enforcement, journalists and other

:29:39.:29:42.

bodies will be able to piece together the information. Who owns

:29:43.:29:48.

the company? How is the money spent to avoid prosecution? That is what

:29:49.:29:51.

is absolutely clear and the exciting thing coming out of this. So to take

:29:52.:29:59.

your example of the expensive property in Notting Hill. At the

:30:00.:30:05.

moment, all we know is that this ?25 million house has been bought by the

:30:06.:30:12.

no name company. So after these changes, we find out that it is

:30:13.:30:16.

owned by John Smith or some other name. How do we then establish that

:30:17.:30:25.

John Smith's money is corrupt? This is exactly it. That is the point. Mr

:30:26.:30:30.

Smith owns a company that owns a big house in Notting Hill but what we

:30:31.:30:33.

then need to know is where did that money come from? That company, what

:30:34.:30:38.

other companies is it related to? This is why we are excited to have

:30:39.:30:42.

France and the Netherlands and other countries commit to public

:30:43.:30:46.

registries so we need to know what company they are connected with. But

:30:47.:30:49.

he has probably not brought the money in from France or Holland, has

:30:50.:30:50.

he? No, So how do we find out? We've

:30:51.:31:02.

information on whole real owners of those companies are in a global

:31:03.:31:07.

register of beneficial owners of companies so we can trace the chain.

:31:08.:31:14.

Many times these companies go through 12, 13, changes of

:31:15.:31:17.

companies. We find the beneficial owner. That's the one at the end of

:31:18.:31:21.

the chain, not in the middle of the chain. We know where the money came

:31:22.:31:26.

from because we've information on public contracts in Nigeria, the UK

:31:27.:31:29.

and elsewhere. Stick with us. One final question. What do you make of

:31:30.:31:34.

this, Polly? It's an excellent move. High time. It is sad America and

:31:35.:31:41.

Britain wagged their fingers the whole time at the Third World for

:31:42.:31:44.

corruption and we don't shut every door we could. The Cayman Islands

:31:45.:31:51.

refuse the parities pace. In America, Delaware is one of the

:31:52.:31:57.

great tax evasions. And Nevada. We should do that first. Through those

:31:58.:32:01.

places comes a great deal of this corruption. We could turn off the

:32:02.:32:06.

taps immediately to the Cayman Islands and British Virgin Islands.

:32:07.:32:09.

The Government says it is not democratic. We could tell our banks

:32:10.:32:15.

you will not deal with money from those countries, we do not trust it.

:32:16.:32:20.

The whole financial industry would be dead. General de Gaulle, when he

:32:21.:32:25.

was angry at Monaco for their tax cheating, he surrounded the place

:32:26.:32:29.

with troops and turned off their water supply. We could do the same

:32:30.:32:35.

by turning off their banking supply. Going back to being their colonial

:32:36.:32:41.

masters? They have to be transparent. Britain are taking

:32:42.:32:45.

certain positions. There are like-minded countries at that summit

:32:46.:32:48.

behind you. Maybe not all like-minded. Most of the countries

:32:49.:32:52.

in the word are not represented there. How far away are we from a

:32:53.:32:59.

register of beneficial ownership being global? I understand the logic

:33:00.:33:04.

of that. It would seem to me that will be very difficult to do and

:33:05.:33:08.

we're probably quite a long way away from it? I think there's two things

:33:09.:33:14.

here. This is a really big step in the right direction towards having a

:33:15.:33:18.

global registry of beneficial owners. And the summit very much is

:33:19.:33:23.

about both the developed and developing countries tackling this

:33:24.:33:26.

global issue together. In order, you're right, there are 40 countries

:33:27.:33:30.

coming to the summit today, one of the next staging posts of global

:33:31.:33:33.

summit of open Government partnership in December in Paris,

:33:34.:33:38.

the open Government partnership brings together 70 countries. If we

:33:39.:33:43.

had all those members commit we would have 70 countries in the

:33:44.:33:47.

world. We would be a long way or a closer way to building a global norm

:33:48.:33:51.

to fight the scourge of corruption. Thank you for joining us from the

:33:52.:33:57.

anti-corruption summit at Lancaster House in London

:33:58.:33:58.

Now, the Culture Secretary John Whittingdale has been outlining

:33:59.:34:00.

the government's plans for the future of the BBC this morning.

:34:01.:34:03.

The BBC's Royal Charter - the agreement which sets

:34:04.:34:05.

the broadcaster's rules and purpose - expires in December.

:34:06.:34:08.

And today's White Paper outlines how the corporation will be run

:34:09.:34:12.

Let's take a look at the main proposals:

:34:13.:34:19.

The Trust governing the BBC will be abolished and a new board set up

:34:20.:34:22.

Culture Secretary John Whittingdale said this will create a "new, strong

:34:23.:34:31.

unitary board" in charge of the BBC with some government appointments,

:34:32.:34:36.

but at least half the board members decided by the BBC.

:34:37.:34:41.

Ofcom will become the BBC's external regulator and arbitrate on

:34:42.:34:47.

impartiality and accuracy complaints.

:34:48.:34:51.

And the BBC will release details of the salaries of stars

:34:52.:34:54.

The licence fee - which is currently set at ?145.50 a year -

:34:55.:35:07.

It will rise in line with inflation for the next five years.

:35:08.:35:27.

In future, -- 202 I 2 viewers will need to pay the licence fee

:35:28.:35:38.

to use BBC iPlayer - closing a loophole which allowed

:35:39.:35:40.

The charter renewal period will be extended from 10 to 11 years,

:35:41.:35:45.

to make sure any future decisions about the BBC

:35:46.:35:47.

will not clash with election campaigns.

:35:48.:35:54.

And the new charter will "enshrine diversity" measures

:35:55.:35:58.

to ensure the BBC reflects its audiences on and off screen.

:35:59.:36:03.

Let's take a look at what the Culture Secretary has said

:36:04.:36:05.

The new charter will create a unitary board for the BBC that has a

:36:06.:36:20.

much clearer separation of governance and regulation. The board

:36:21.:36:24.

will be responsible for ensuring that the BBC's strategy, activity

:36:25.:36:27.

and output are in the public interest and accord to the mission

:36:28.:36:33.

and purposes set out in the charter. Editorial decisions will remain the

:36:34.:36:37.

responsibility of the Director General and his editorial

:36:38.:36:42.

independence will be explicitly enshrined in the charter while the

:36:43.:36:46.

unitary board will consider any issues or complaints which arise

:36:47.:36:51.

post transmission. That was John Whittingdale issuing a statement

:36:52.:36:55.

very different from much of the speculation that has gone on

:36:56.:36:59.

beforehand about what was in store for the BBC. Let's speak to Damian

:37:00.:37:04.

Green, chairman of the parliamentary all-partiy group of the BBC. Didn't

:37:05.:37:09.

know we had one. And foal low Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen. A

:37:10.:37:11.

critic What's not to like about this? Not a

:37:12.:37:22.

lot. The only shock is they don't pay you more than 4 #50?,000. It is

:37:23.:37:27.

an outrage. Probably the first thing you and I have ever agreed about.

:37:28.:37:32.

Thank you for that! It is broadly sensible. The key thing for me was

:37:33.:37:39.

maintaining the BBC's editorial independence. There were a lot of

:37:40.:37:44.

scare stories,er certainly things that sounded Luke crews, including

:37:45.:37:48.

not allowing the BBC to make popular programmes at peak times. But also

:37:49.:37:52.

this thought that the Government would appoint a majority of the new

:37:53.:37:57.

board members. That's gone away. Clearly a majority of the board

:37:58.:38:00.

members will be appointed by the BBC. The Director General will be

:38:01.:38:05.

explicitly alone responsible for editorial content. That seems to

:38:06.:38:10.

preserve the independence of BBC which is the cornerstone of its

:38:11.:38:17.

appeal. Andrew, has John Whittingdale bottled it? I don't

:38:18.:38:22.

think so. It is a good White Paper. One of my problems with the BBC is

:38:23.:38:26.

the lack of trust in the BBC Trust. You can't have your regulator as

:38:27.:38:30.

your biggest cheerleader. Off cock being brought in to deal with

:38:31.:38:35.

regulation and complaints, that's all very healthy. So, you have no

:38:36.:38:41.

reservations about what's being proposed? Because it bears no

:38:42.:38:45.

resemblance to many of the ideas that were floated in the run up to

:38:46.:38:49.

this White Paper when all sorts of things were meant to be in play for

:38:50.:38:56.

the BBC? Well, as you know, I favoured decriminalisation that led

:38:57.:38:59.

to the David Perry review. It was concluded that the BBC could not

:39:00.:39:03.

cope with decriminalisation and the effect it would have on its revenue

:39:04.:39:10.

stream. We have to be pragmatic. The changes we have here are opening the

:39:11.:39:15.

door to closing the judicial loophole, iPlayer. The BBC accident'

:39:16.:39:20.

get all it wanted. Most people can charge for the goods and services

:39:21.:39:23.

they provide. Sometimes the BBC think they can charge for what their

:39:24.:39:30.

rivals provide. The BBC wanted people to buy a license if they

:39:31.:39:35.

accessed through iPlayer etc. That was reisted by the Government.

:39:36.:39:40.

Damian, there will be concerns inside the BBC about Ofcom

:39:41.:39:45.

regulation and even the National Audit Office, what exactly the

:39:46.:39:50.

detail operational detail it may be able to reveal of things the BBC may

:39:51.:39:55.

think is private. If you step back from all of that, is it not

:39:56.:39:59.

remarkable that the licence fee, which 15 years ago many people

:40:00.:40:03.

thought would not really have much longer to go, hoes now been

:40:04.:40:08.

enshrined and largely linked to inflation for another 11 years. It's

:40:09.:40:12.

there now until the middle of the next decade at the very least. That

:40:13.:40:15.

is quite a remarkable result, is it not? Historically, completely

:40:16.:40:22.

remarkable. I remember in the 1990s, I advised the BBC for a time in the

:40:23.:40:26.

run up to a charter review. It was a given then because of the internet

:40:27.:40:32.

and all that was about to happen that certainly by 2006, nobody

:40:33.:40:36.

thought the BBC licence fee would be sustainable. Here we are, it will

:40:37.:40:41.

still be there in 2027. What's happened is classic British Prague

:40:42.:40:47.

fattism. If you're inventing a theoretical system you would try to

:40:48.:40:52.

fund public service broadcasting some other way not through the

:40:53.:40:58.

license knee. Because it broadly works, by and large the BBC is a

:40:59.:41:02.

hugely important national institution, widely loved in this

:41:03.:41:05.

country. Wyely respected around the world. Actually, doing anything to

:41:06.:41:11.

damage it would be an act of cultural vandalism. We end up with

:41:12.:41:17.

anomalies like the licence fee. It was once called worse than the poll

:41:18.:41:22.

tax? Something worse than the poll tax will enshrine in law and index

:41:23.:41:29.

link to inflation for five or six years, the inflation bit and the

:41:30.:41:33.

licence fee for another 11 years. Worse than the poll tax for another

:41:34.:41:38.

11 years. It is the last gas for the licence fee. It doesn't matter what

:41:39.:41:43.

the Government funding mechanisms. It is about the ninth last gasp over

:41:44.:41:48.

the years. Technology would move forward and will drive the demands

:41:49.:41:52.

of the consumer. That's what I was told at the end of the la charter

:41:53.:41:58.

renewal. After this charter renewal people will be streaming their

:41:59.:42:03.

content online and the BBC can charge for their iPlayer services.

:42:04.:42:07.

They need to charge for that service around the world and bring the back

:42:08.:42:12.

cat lot of BBC World online and use it as a revenue stream. That will be

:42:13.:42:15.

the revenue stream by the end of this charter review. Should all

:42:16.:42:20.

these luvvies that turned the BAFTA awards into a north Korean Communist

:42:21.:42:25.

Party rally get back in their box? Basically, yes. All those who were

:42:26.:42:29.

saying this would be terrible and this Government was going to destroy

:42:30.:42:34.

the BBC, actually, wrong. Go and read the White Paper. Hear what the

:42:35.:42:39.

BBC say. This gives the BBC the chance to carry on doing what it

:42:40.:42:44.

does, what people love, for another ten years with a stable, if slightly

:42:45.:42:50.

anone louse funding regime, which broadly speaking works. It is not

:42:51.:42:55.

like the poll tax. I doubt the Secretary of State or Government

:42:56.:42:59.

will get an apology from the luvvies any time soon. That's also possibly

:43:00.:43:06.

true. We've Richard Wilson on This Week tonight. We'll see. Andrew is

:43:07.:43:12.

happy overall with what's happened. Are you sure you're happy? It is the

:43:13.:43:17.

best deal the Secretary of State could have cut begin the situation.

:43:18.:43:20.

I like the idea of a health check after five years. It has to work.

:43:21.:43:25.

The BBC has huge power. It needs accountability. It is getting the

:43:26.:43:30.

thick end of four billion of taxpayers' money. They deserve more

:43:31.:43:35.

transparency and accountability from the BBC. If it's not, this won't be

:43:36.:43:40.

the solution. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. Polly, I would

:43:41.:43:45.

suggest what's happened here, I've lived through it several times,

:43:46.:43:48.

Governments come into power. They're determined to do something about the

:43:49.:43:52.

BBC. I remember John Major telling me he was going to do it in 1992. Mr

:43:53.:43:58.

Whittingdale seems to want to do it this time. Even Harold Wilson wanted

:43:59.:44:03.

to do something to the BBC. What happens is, more important events

:44:04.:44:07.

take over and even if it was the right thing to do, it is just not

:44:08.:44:11.

worth the candle? Don't underestimate what has happened to

:44:12.:44:15.

the BBC. Doesn't surprise me flakey rebels on the Tory side are backing

:44:16.:44:21.

off. Which one? Andrew Br architis dge negotiation. No, Damian Green.

:44:22.:44:26.

Andrew has it right. Got most of what he wants. There was a decoy out

:44:27.:44:32.

there. We'll decide how to scheduled bake-off and Strictly. What really

:44:33.:44:37.

matters is governance. Never before has the BBC's day-to-day running,

:44:38.:44:43.

its editorial decision-making, been run by political appointees. It is

:44:44.:44:48.

not. It will be enshrined in the BBC who will be given special protection

:44:49.:44:52.

to be independent. The board, will not be able to get involved in

:44:53.:44:57.

editorial matters until after anything has been broadcast, which

:44:58.:45:01.

was the situation under the governance. Nevertheless, it's far

:45:02.:45:07.

closer. There is only one board. That's what it used to be like. They

:45:08.:45:11.

are making decisions about deployments of all kinds. Before, it

:45:12.:45:16.

was are arm's length. A peculiar brand of... The Government appointed

:45:17.:45:21.

all the trustees. Trust was none on... They appointed the governors

:45:22.:45:28.

before the days of the treesees. The majority of people on this board

:45:29.:45:31.

will be appointed by the BBC. The Government will have no say over

:45:32.:45:37.

these appointees? Do you think the BBC will appoint six anti-Government

:45:38.:45:41.

people? Of course they won't. Boards are not like that. They may appoint

:45:42.:45:45.

six independent people. Who's independent? Everyone has their own

:45:46.:45:49.

views. They'll appoint a balance, the BBC is very balanced. The

:45:50.:45:54.

Government gets to a to appoint six people to this board. The chairman,

:45:55.:45:58.

vice-chairman, four from the nations and regions. They'll have to go

:45:59.:46:02.

through the northern procedures. Gone are the days where the Home

:46:03.:46:06.

Secretary calls up his best mate from school. Then the BBC, with the

:46:07.:46:12.

DG leading the way, gets to a point more than six.

:46:13.:46:17.

But they will not necessarily be anti-government people. You seem to

:46:18.:46:22.

be denying that the government is now a huge step closer to the

:46:23.:46:27.

day-to-day running of the BBC than it ever has been in the past. We

:46:28.:46:31.

never had to put up with this. But it is the job of the management

:46:32.:46:36.

committee, not the board, the job of the executive management committee

:46:37.:46:39.

to run the BBC's day-to-day business. The board will not run it

:46:40.:46:44.

like that. But you are closer than ever. Chris Patten has the right

:46:45.:46:49.

idea. He said that these important bodies, Channel 4, Ofcom, the BBC,

:46:50.:46:54.

where editorial decisions are being made, the appointments should be

:46:55.:46:57.

made by an independent commission like you have an independent

:46:58.:47:00.

commission for appointing judges, away from government. The head of

:47:01.:47:05.

Ofcom, and all of these other broadcasting bodies, should be

:47:06.:47:08.

decided entirely independently by a separate commission. Then we would

:47:09.:47:12.

know... Do you think this is a bad deal for the BBC? I think it is a

:47:13.:47:18.

worse deal than it looks. Ofcom is now run by a reputable civil servant

:47:19.:47:21.

but at any point the government could put in somebody else, as they

:47:22.:47:26.

did with the charities commission. Can I just point out that the BBC

:47:27.:47:30.

will have a majority of people on the board. There will be no

:47:31.:47:35.

scheduling at all. There will be no change in the budget deal that has

:47:36.:47:40.

already been done. The licence fee is there for another 11 years. It is

:47:41.:47:45.

index-linked and there is a remit to increased adversity. There is more

:47:46.:47:50.

pressure for the BBC to be distinct, which is what public service

:47:51.:47:55.

broadcasting is. And there is a special independent protection for

:47:56.:48:00.

the Director General. No top sizing and nonpayment of the licence fee is

:48:01.:48:03.

still an offence. True. These are things that have not changed. They

:48:04.:48:08.

have not undermine the BBC. I think the BBC is undermined by the nature

:48:09.:48:12.

of it all, by direct political appointees. I also think it is

:48:13.:48:16.

somewhat undermined by putting it under Ofcom, which is a competition

:48:17.:48:20.

regulator. The BBC is not in a commercial market. Others have to

:48:21.:48:24.

sail along beside it as best they can. But it is in a market. Not

:48:25.:48:30.

really. The idea that lawyers from outside broadcasting would come in

:48:31.:48:35.

and challenge Ofcom to say that the BBC is anti-competitive on this or

:48:36.:48:39.

that or the other. That is a real new arena. The idea that they are

:48:40.:48:43.

told they must be distinctive takes us back. Then, should they really be

:48:44.:48:51.

doing strictly? It is looking at the BBC as if they should be doing only

:48:52.:48:54.

the things that nobody else wants to do. That is not what distinctive

:48:55.:49:01.

means. I'm not sure what the point of public service broadcasting is if

:49:02.:49:04.

you are supposed to be distinctive. It is distinctive and it is the best

:49:05.:49:06.

at what it does on the whole. All eyes may have been on London's

:49:07.:49:08.

election at the weekend. But about 100 miles

:49:09.:49:12.

west of the capital, another race for Mayor

:49:13.:49:14.

was playing out. And it was another success

:49:15.:49:20.

for Labour, as Marvin Rees was elected to the top

:49:21.:49:22.

job in Bristol. After two rounds of voting, he won

:49:23.:49:24.

by a majority of around 30,000 votes, and ousted the incumbent

:49:25.:49:27.

independent Mayor George Ferguson. So who is Marvin Rees and what does

:49:28.:49:38.

his new role allowed him to do? Well, he is 43 and he was raised and

:49:39.:49:44.

born in Bristol. He is married with three children, and in a former life

:49:45.:49:47.

he was a journalist, so we can to be a bad person at all. He worked in

:49:48.:49:51.

public health before switching to politics. No mayor of the city, his

:49:52.:49:55.

responsibility is for local transport policy, housing and local

:49:56.:49:58.

spending. So quite a lot of important things that matter to the

:49:59.:50:03.

people of Bristol. His annual salary will be about ?65,000. And he joins

:50:04.:50:08.

me now. Welcome. Were you expecting to win? I think the omens were good.

:50:09.:50:14.

And what we heard on the doorsteps and the streets. And I think that we

:50:15.:50:19.

anticipated that with a higher turnout, we would stand a stronger

:50:20.:50:23.

chance of winning. How strong pitch, because we had this period of time

:50:24.:50:27.

where you were an independent mayor, independent of major parties, is

:50:28.:50:35.

that being seen as a success or, given that the people have returned

:50:36.:50:40.

to a party nominee, was that an aberration? I think a number of

:50:41.:50:46.

people came to question what independence meant. There is no such

:50:47.:50:49.

thing as independent thought, really. I don't want to pick over

:50:50.:50:54.

the bones of my predecessor because he has been very gracious moving on,

:50:55.:50:59.

but I think there was an element of disappointment between the level of

:51:00.:51:03.

delivery and the promise that was made, that politics would be

:51:04.:51:08.

transformed. I think real political transformation is not just about

:51:09.:51:11.

abandoning political parties, it is about new people from a wider range

:51:12.:51:15.

of backgrounds taking a position of influence. In a sense, we're

:51:16.:51:19.

beginning to see this happen with Sadiq Khan's Victorian London, and

:51:20.:51:24.

your own victory in Bristol. There are new faces to British politics in

:51:25.:51:31.

the 21st century. I think so. And that does not pass me by. Sadiq Khan

:51:32.:51:36.

is the son of a bus driver. As he has told us several times! Was your

:51:37.:51:42.

dad a bus rather? I will not say what my dad did. He was a guy in

:51:43.:51:52.

town. My mum lived in a refuge for a while. Looking at the report an

:51:53.:51:55.

elitist Britain, I should not be here. But that is one of the reasons

:51:56.:51:59.

why I am here, because I do not want a city that is built on chance. And

:52:00.:52:07.

it may be that local government or elected mayors is a way of doing

:52:08.:52:11.

that. I said this to Andy Burnham once, when he was running as mayor

:52:12.:52:16.

of Manchester. We have a picture viewer Jeremy Corbyn, who came down

:52:17.:52:21.

to see you before the victory. Was he an asset or a liability for you

:52:22.:52:26.

on the doorstep? I would say he was incredibly supportive. And in terms

:52:27.:52:30.

of my motivation, he was absolutely supportive. Bristol is a diverse

:52:31.:52:36.

city and in some areas, Jeremy had incredible traction and in other

:52:37.:52:40.

areas, he did not have so much traction. Overall, his contribution

:52:41.:52:43.

to the campaign was incredibly positive and I am grateful for the

:52:44.:52:47.

support from him. Why do you think he came to see you rather than Sadiq

:52:48.:52:51.

Khan? I will not take the question away. I welcome anyone to come to

:52:52.:52:54.

Bristol. Where would you rather be on a sunny day, in Bristol or smoky

:52:55.:53:03.

London? We see a lot of this through the prism of the London mayoral

:53:04.:53:06.

campaign. And we always have had big figures, Ken Livingstone, Boris

:53:07.:53:13.

Johnson, how much was this about you as an individual? And how much was

:53:14.:53:19.

it you as the Labour candidate? It was a lot about me. It was my

:53:20.:53:23.

frustration in the last campaign, with this whole thing of

:53:24.:53:27.

independence. I never crossed the line and ceased to be Marvin who has

:53:28.:53:31.

my background and my network of friends, I was a guy who joined the

:53:32.:53:36.

Labour Party in my mid 30s, and took up the challenge of getting elected,

:53:37.:53:39.

to make things happen through electoral politics. And that element

:53:40.:53:45.

of my appeal outside the party boundaries brought me incredible

:53:46.:53:48.

support and sometimes costly challenges. Was I really Labour or

:53:49.:53:52.

was I a guy who jumped on the train late in the game? I think the Labour

:53:53.:53:55.

Party is about people coming together around shared values. The

:53:56.:53:59.

values of my upbringing are the values that I found among people in

:54:00.:54:03.

the party and I can rally with them and try to get things done for

:54:04.:54:06.

people left behind. We will see how it goes. It is an exciting time.

:54:07.:54:08.

Thank you very much. Time now for the answer to

:54:09.:54:09.

our question. I forgot to brief Polly on its! What

:54:10.:54:12.

rule has been overturned? B) Allowing people to throw

:54:13.:54:24.

underwear on stage? C) Allowing the show to be presented

:54:25.:54:28.

by yours truely? D) Repealing its ban

:54:29.:54:31.

on the Welsh flag? Do you have an idea, Polly? I don't

:54:32.:54:40.

think it is knickers. It is perhaps the Welsh flag. It is. Apparently it

:54:41.:54:46.

was revealed on the Daily Politics that there was a revealed that there

:54:47.:54:51.

had to be nation state flags are supposed to national flags, like the

:54:52.:54:58.

Scottish sole tyre. I'm sorry it is not you replacing Terry Wogan. It

:54:59.:55:03.

would be fun but now one can replace Terry Wogan. He alone was the reason

:55:04.:55:05.

for watching it. So, as you have seen from our quiz,

:55:06.:55:06.

politics and passions run particularly high

:55:07.:55:08.

round Eurovision time. This year, even more so, as the EU

:55:09.:55:10.

Referendum hangs over the contest. If we do get 'nil points' again,

:55:11.:55:13.

is this a message that we're not wanted in the Union, or shall we

:55:14.:55:18.

just put it down to With us now is Chris West,

:55:19.:55:21.

who's written a definitive book on the politics of Eurovision,

:55:22.:55:26.

and BBC presenter Paddy O'Connell who's in Stockholm covering

:55:27.:55:29.

the competition for BBC radio. Chris West, are you going to be nice

:55:30.:55:43.

to the UK this year? I think so. I think we have a good song, and good

:55:44.:55:49.

singers. So yes, I think they are going to do OK. You think we might

:55:50.:55:53.

have a chance of maybe not winning but still high up there are? Top

:55:54.:56:01.

ten, very well. Paddy, you are our man in Stockholm. What is the mood

:56:02.:56:05.

among the competition? Is the referendum being talked about?

:56:06.:56:09.

Notice was ugly but there are echoes. Every year there is a leave

:56:10.:56:18.

remain argument about the contest. This year, Russia is controversial.

:56:19.:56:31.

They are not sending in a bare-chested Vladimir Putin, the

:56:32.:56:34.

ascending in a younger man. And the bookies say that they were when. So

:56:35.:56:38.

the Russians are the -- so the Russians are the favourite?

:56:39.:56:42.

Interesting. Stockholm is one of the internet capitals of Europe but

:56:43.:56:45.

clearly, with our connection, not today. You have written about the

:56:46.:56:50.

soft power of Eurovision. That it is a strong political force and will

:56:51.:56:54.

betide any country that ignores it. What do you mean by that? If it was

:56:55.:56:58.

a country like Sweden, over the last ten years, they have put themselves

:56:59.:57:05.

forward as a progressive, creative and well organised, competent

:57:06.:57:08.

country. They have done very well, they have had very good singers.

:57:09.:57:12.

Their entry in 2012 has sold records around the world. I'm sure my age

:57:13.:57:18.

with records! Downloads, whatever. There is a lot of good stuff about

:57:19.:57:22.

Sweden that comes through the Eurovision Song contest. Are the

:57:23.:57:28.

Swedes happy to host this? It is a huge expense. It is a very expensive

:57:29.:57:34.

events to mount. It is. They are even joking about it from the stage.

:57:35.:57:39.

There is a lot of irony on the stage about how expensive it has been. And

:57:40.:57:46.

they take six weeks to nick their national entry here, so in a way

:57:47.:57:54.

they will be quite happy to bump along the next few years. And do you

:57:55.:57:57.

go along with the bookies favourite? If it is not the Russians, who are

:57:58.:58:02.

the other two or three that we should keep an eye on? I love

:58:03.:58:08.

Austria because they are singing in French, it is a French song. And

:58:09.:58:14.

Chris is nodding. We will keep an eye on Austria as well. And if you

:58:15.:58:19.

like country music, the Netherlands, the artist is basically singing

:58:20.:58:27.

British, and the whole contest is bonkers than ever. There are more

:58:28.:58:35.

thighs on the stage than now knows. -- Nandos.

:58:36.:58:38.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:39.:58:44.

I'll be on This Week with Alan Johnson, Michael Portillo,

:58:45.:58:47.

and DJ Annie Nightingale joining me from 11.45pm tonight.

:58:48.:58:54.

And I'll be back here at noon tomorrow with all the big political

:58:55.:58:57.

Drinking small amounts of alcohol isn't without risk.

:58:58.:59:06.

Eat more of this, drink more of that -

:59:07.:59:14.

can we really eat and drink our way to better health?

:59:15.:59:19.

Because my mother had dementia, there's always that anxiety -

:59:20.:59:23.

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