12/05/2016 Daily Politics


12/05/2016

Andrew Neil discusses the government's new white paper on the BBC with Conservative MPs Damian Green and Andrew Bridgen. Plus David Cameron's plans to tackle corruption.


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Transcript


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Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:38.

High noon in the Welsh Assembly as members are locked in a stand-off

:00:39.:00:43.

But this programme understands Ukip's leader in Wales

:00:44.:00:49.

is in talks about a deal to throw his weight behind Labour

:00:50.:00:54.

and split with the rest of the Ukip group.

:00:55.:00:57.

We'll have the latest on this breaking story.

:00:58.:01:00.

The Government unveils a major overhaul of the way the BBC is run:

:01:01.:01:04.

an external regulator, more transparency on star pay

:01:05.:01:08.

and licence fee guaranteed for another 11 years.

:01:09.:01:13.

New analysis shows a sharp increase in short-term immigration from the

:01:14.:01:22.

EU which isn't being picked up by official immigration statistics.

:01:23.:01:25.

So, are we underestimating the true numbers coming here?

:01:26.:01:32.

And, we speak to Bristol's new mayor on his plans for the city

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And with us for the whole programme today is the Guardian Columnist,

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ITV has announced it will host the it. V debate featuring David Cameron

:01:51.:02:13.

and the Ukip leader Nigel Farage ahead of next month's vote. But the

:02:14.:02:19.

two men won't go head-to-head. They'll appear one after the other.

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However, the vote leave group has accused ITV of a stitch-up. Because

:02:25.:02:30.

Mr Farage belongs to a rival eurosceptic cap pain and not the

:02:31.:02:33.

Vote Leave campaign. Now to our correspondent. What's the

:02:34.:02:38.

significance of all this? In is about a debate scheduled to

:02:39.:02:48.

take place on 7th June. It will be David Cameron answering questions

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from a studio audience and then Nigel Farage answering questions

:02:52.:02:56.

from a studio audience. They wouldn't be going head-to-head.

:02:57.:03:00.

Still, Vote Leave unhappy with what's going on. That's because,

:03:01.:03:07.

they don't really like Nigel Farage. Vote Leave being the official Out

:03:08.:03:13.

campaign, Nigel Farage had hoped his would be the official campaign. That

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didn't happen. Vote Leave concerned Nigel Farage is at best a divisive

:03:19.:03:23.

character who would butt off as many undecided voters as he would

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persuades them to vote to leave. That's what they're worried about.

:03:28.:03:31.

They have issued something of a rather ominous warning to ITV

:03:32.:03:38.

suggesting that ITV had effectively joined the official In campaign it

:03:39.:03:42.

there will be consequences for its future saying the people of Number

:03:43.:03:47.

Ten won't be there for long. ITV deny any stitch-up and say Nigel

:03:48.:03:51.

Farage has been campaigning to leave the EU for the past 20-odd years.

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Nigel Farage has hardly pulled any punches this morning.

:03:58.:03:58.

The official Vote Leave campaign are run by people who have tried

:03:59.:04:01.

tried to exclude me from everything which, frankly, is ludicrous.

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We cannot win the referendum if all we see are Conservative voices.

:04:06.:04:08.

I'm delighted we've six Cabinet Ministers.

:04:09.:04:09.

But we need Ukip, Labour and trade union voices.

:04:10.:04:14.

We need a degree of unity if we're going to work together.

:04:15.:04:17.

I'm sad to see what they've said about me.

:04:18.:04:22.

And, frankly, Michael Gove is chairman of Vote Leave,

:04:23.:04:29.

I would say to Michael, get a grip on your staff.

:04:30.:04:39.

The vote leave campaign would like someone like Boris Johnson, Iain

:04:40.:04:45.

Duncan Smith or Michael Gove to debate against the Prime Minister.

:04:46.:04:48.

It works out well for Downing Street. David Cameron wants to avoid

:04:49.:04:52.

too much blue on blue action. He doesn't want to debate those senior

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Conservative figures. It is hardly good for Tory unity. There are other

:04:57.:05:01.

debates in the offing. Channel 4, Sky and the bean with that huge

:05:02.:05:05.

debate planned all coming up. Noshiateses still underway. I

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suspect we haven't heard the end of all of this. These are usually the

:05:10.:05:13.

threats politicians make against the BBC. It's a least a change to have

:05:14.:05:20.

ITV in the frame instead. Takes the pressure off us for at least a day.

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This really suits the Prime Minister really well though, the Prime

:05:26.:05:29.

Minister gets to be the voice of Remain but rather than being up

:05:30.:05:32.

against the Michael Gove or Boris Johnson, he gets to define himself

:05:33.:05:36.

against Nigel Farage. He may be right or wrong but he thinks that

:05:37.:05:41.

good for his side of the argument? It goes back to this idea of just

:05:42.:05:46.

how divisive and how toxic is Nigel Farage as a figure for the Leave

:05:47.:05:52.

campaign. Nigel Farage insisted he's quite good for those indecideds. He

:05:53.:05:55.

plays well in the north and Midlands in the way maybe Boris Johnson

:05:56.:06:00.

doesn't. There's a feeling this morning from the In campaign,

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Downing Street, that Nigel Farage issing a of a toxic figures and

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actually, to have him as the main point of argument against him

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possibly a good thing for the Remain campaign. That that's the point the

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official Vote Leave campaign are trying to make.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz and it seems that yet again

:06:20.:06:22.

the all powerful Daily Politics has notched up another

:06:23.:06:24.

This time our fearless journalism has forced the Eurovision Song

:06:25.:06:28.

Contest to back down on one of their more outlandish directives,

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so our question for today is....what has eurovision

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B) Allowing people to throw underwear on stage?

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C) Allowing the show to be presented by yours truely?

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D) Repealing its ban on the Welsh flag?

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At the end of the show, Polly will give us the correct answer.

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Don't do it now. Do you have a suspicion? I think I it's probably

:07:09.:07:16.

not knickers! Don't go there yet! Sorry! I'll mark your card closer to

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the time. You may be surprised. Now, back in February we covered

:07:21.:07:23.

the curious discrepancy between official migration

:07:24.:07:26.

statistics and the level of National Insurance numbers

:07:27.:07:30.

issued to EU nationals. In recent years, there has been

:07:31.:07:33.

a sharp rise in National Insurance numbers for EU nationals which has

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led to claims that the true level of immigration from the EU

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is being underestimated. The government has been under

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pressure to explain why the two measures have been so different

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for so long. This morning, the Office

:07:58.:08:00.

for National Statistics One of those who has been pushing

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for answers is the economist Jonathan Portes, who has been

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pouring over the data. He's always been pouring over this.

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Jonathan, it seems, we've just got this, the ONS is saying the main

:08:26.:08:31.

explanation for the diversion is the people getting NI numbers are coming

:08:32.:08:35.

in just for a short time, less than a year, perhaps, to work and they

:08:36.:08:38.

don't show up in the migration figures. Do you buy that as largely

:08:39.:08:43.

the explanation? I buy it's largely the explanation. I agree with the

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ONS on that. They have gone good work on that. I don't buy it is the

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only explanation. I have a professional disagreement with them

:08:55.:08:57.

on that. What they published today suggests there is some degree of

:08:58.:09:02.

undercounting of long-term migration from the rest of the EU and some of

:09:03.:09:07.

the figures they've published today, in my view, support that. It is not

:09:08.:09:12.

the main explanation. It's not the case all the divergence is

:09:13.:09:17.

undercounting. Most is short-term migration. There still remains, in

:09:18.:09:23.

my view, some undercounting of long-term counting from EU member

:09:24.:09:26.

states in these new statistics. Do we have any idea of the scale of

:09:27.:09:31.

undercounting. Let's give our viewers of the figures. In the year

:09:32.:09:37.

to June 2015, quite typical of recent years, we counted 260,000

:09:38.:09:42.

migrants coming in from the EU. In other words, people coming here for

:09:43.:09:49.

over a year. But we gave out 697,000, almost 700,000 national

:09:50.:09:53.

insurance numbers. That is a big discrepe Si. Do we -- discrepancy.

:09:54.:10:00.

Do we have an idea what scale of that is accounted for by the ONS

:10:01.:10:04.

explanation and how much that leaves? A much better idea. That

:10:05.:10:09.

date is too recent to be analysed in any detail. Some of the people

:10:10.:10:14.

you're talking about there don't know if they're staying for three

:10:15.:10:18.

months or three years. They've only just arrived and not made their

:10:19.:10:24.

minds up, quite legitimately. If we go back to 2013/14, we get a better

:10:25.:10:29.

idea. There, we see the ONS migration statistics suggest about

:10:30.:10:37.

74,000 -- 740,000 people came in. Whereas the figures recorded are a

:10:38.:10:41.

bit fuzzy, suggest the numbers might be somewhere in the region of

:10:42.:10:45.

900,000 to one million. There's a lot of uncertainty about that. There

:10:46.:10:50.

are ledge the mat disagreements. I would say on the basis of this,

:10:51.:10:53.

there is some degree of undercurrenting. We're talking not

:10:54.:10:57.

more than tens of thousands but not many hundreds of thousands, if that

:10:58.:11:02.

makes sense. I wonder, Jonathan, if part of reason for the

:11:03.:11:09.

undercounting, is the international passenger survey, which is how we do

:11:10.:11:14.

this, is it fit for purpose? It was really invented to work out how many

:11:15.:11:18.

visitors and tourists were coming to this country. Do you have a problem

:11:19.:11:22.

with your sound? Can you hear me all right? No, he can't hear me. He's

:11:23.:11:30.

actually all of ten yards away. We've naturally lost the sound. If

:11:31.:11:33.

he was in Baghdad, we'd probably have him. We'll come back to you.

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What do you make of this? It is interesting. There's always been a

:11:38.:11:41.

lot of confusion about national insurance numbers. Frank Field, the

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great expert on this, long before he was much interested in migration

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always complained about the need to clean up national insurance numbers.

:11:52.:11:56.

They're very, very baggy. It's not quite clear, people can work for a

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bit, go away. It's not clear what their significance is. This is

:12:01.:12:03.

interesting. How many people do come in. For short-term agricultural

:12:04.:12:08.

work, summer season. Tourist work. It's hard to know how much. My

:12:09.:12:11.

understanding is still, and Jonathan, we have him back, we'll

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get him to mark our card on this. We know the number of NI numbers the

:12:20.:12:23.

Government release but not the number of NI numbers that are

:12:24.:12:28.

active. That's true. We should know that to be in formed, shouldn't we?

:12:29.:12:34.

I think we should. More information and more information and we can

:12:35.:12:37.

analyse it better. But I do think it's interesting how many people

:12:38.:12:42.

come here, work for a while in some God awful car wash, sleeping ten to

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a bedroom and go home again with a little bit of money in their pocket.

:12:47.:12:53.

But you know, I'll come back to Jonathan in a second, will be said

:12:54.:12:57.

by the Leave, the official count of migration from. EU under estimates,

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there will be an argument about how much, underestimates the numbers

:13:05.:13:08.

coming here? I think Jonathan is the man who knows. If he says they are

:13:09.:13:13.

underestimating it, I'm sure he's right. He's kept his finger most on

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the pulse. Jonathan, you can hear me again now? I can, yeah. What I was

:13:20.:13:26.

saying to you was is this the international passenger sir Vai,

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which is how we measure people coming in, is it really fit for

:13:29.:13:32.

purpose in this age of mass migration? It was originally

:13:33.:13:37.

invented, as I understand it, to mesh you are the number of --

:13:38.:13:41.

measure the number of visitors coming here. The percentage within

:13:42.:13:46.

that survey that are migrants short or long-term, is very small. Small

:13:47.:13:50.

changes can make a huge difference to the outcome of the survey. Is

:13:51.:13:55.

that fair? Well, it's fair. I wouldn't say it's not fit for

:13:56.:13:59.

purpose. It's the best thing we have. If you look at this in the

:14:00.:14:03.

round, it hasn't performed that badly. We may have been

:14:04.:14:09.

underestimating the number of migrants in recent years. It is the

:14:10.:14:13.

one survey which gives us the best picture of what's happening today.

:14:14.:14:18.

We've stopmented that with some of the data held on Government systems.

:14:19.:14:23.

There may have been some undercounting. But we shouldn't

:14:24.:14:28.

chuck it in the bin. To follow up on what Polly was saying, going to the

:14:29.:14:32.

wider picture. One thing which is very interesting, the reason all

:14:33.:14:36.

this came about, the reason I started poking around in these

:14:37.:14:39.

numbers, was the Prime Minister's claim that 40% of recently arrived

:14:40.:14:44.

European migrants were claiming benefits in some form or other. One

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thing this does do, it is buried in a footnote towards the end, it

:14:51.:14:54.

explodes that. The Prime Minister's comments were wrong. He should

:14:55.:15:01.

apologise and correct. Looking at this how much, tax EU migrants pay

:15:02.:15:05.

during the period, it shows once again what I and others have said

:15:06.:15:10.

for some considerable time, which is EU migrants, however many of them

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there are, they don't come here to claim benefits. They come here to

:15:15.:15:19.

work and make a strong positive contribution to the economy. Are we

:15:20.:15:24.

able to tell what percentage of EU migrants take either in work or out

:15:25.:15:28.

of work benefits and combine the two? Well, to be honest, there are

:15:29.:15:34.

still details to be worked through there. We know it is considerably

:15:35.:15:41.

less than the Prime Minister's 40%. He was assuming there were half a

:15:42.:15:45.

million migrants when he made that calculation. The HMRC calculations

:15:46.:15:50.

suggest it is more like a million. He may have been off by a factor of

:15:51.:15:52.

two. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan Portes. I think

:15:53.:16:02.

this is good to be a big story over the next couple of days.

:16:03.:16:03.

For more on this we're joined by Ukip's immigration

:16:04.:16:06.

spokesman Steven Woolfe, who's in Strasbourg.

:16:07.:16:07.

And Polly Toynbee is still with me here.

:16:08.:16:09.

Steven Woolfe, what is your take on the ONS explanation? Well, good

:16:10.:16:20.

morning to everybody, I think these are pretty damning figures for the

:16:21.:16:24.

government. I think it blows out of the water two things. First of all,

:16:25.:16:29.

as everybody knows, they cannot control migration coming into the UK

:16:30.:16:32.

from the European Union. It also blows out of the water that they

:16:33.:16:36.

have any control of understanding how to calculate those people

:16:37.:16:41.

working here and claiming benefits as Jonathan has just said. What we

:16:42.:16:45.

have is a failure at the heart of government encapsulating an

:16:46.:16:49.

understanding one of the most important things that matters to

:16:50.:16:51.

people in the UK at the moment, immigration. But it seems that what

:16:52.:16:57.

has come out from the ONS, and the figures will be pored over, but it

:16:58.:17:06.

does suggest that most of the discrepancy is explained by

:17:07.:17:11.

short-term migration, here and gone within a year, so they do not count

:17:12.:17:20.

on the European definition. The UN definition of migration. And the

:17:21.:17:22.

overwhelming number of migrants coming here come here to work, not

:17:23.:17:32.

to live on benefits. I think what it shows is the reliance on a group of

:17:33.:17:37.

hard-working people standing at airports with clipboards trying to

:17:38.:17:41.

assess whether people are here for the wanton or not is not really the

:17:42.:17:44.

most modern way of translating whether people stay here the long

:17:45.:17:49.

term. Even just a simple example, some of the people they say are

:17:50.:17:53.

short-term could come here and work this year for a short term, go home

:17:54.:17:59.

and come back next year for work. We're not alkylating that. When you

:18:00.:18:03.

start to analyse the fact that you are relying on clipboards rather

:18:04.:18:07.

than proper assessment through technology, if we can count people

:18:08.:18:11.

going on the tube is surely we should be able to assess who is

:18:12.:18:14.

coming in and out of the country. We must address that. And I think the

:18:15.:18:19.

argument is always suggested that those people who come from Europe do

:18:20.:18:22.

actually work in the European Union. And this will be even greater when

:18:23.:18:28.

we get the living wage, the ?9 here will act as a pool for people coming

:18:29.:18:32.

from poorer countries, where wages are lower. But as we know from the

:18:33.:18:42.

Bank of England's statistics, and from the UN, we know that

:18:43.:18:45.

large-scale migration, in the way that we have it at the moment,

:18:46.:18:50.

pushes down wages. And I know it is arguable, but there is some level of

:18:51.:18:55.

job displacement. That is an important factor for people in the

:18:56.:18:58.

economy, where we have a large amount of austerity. Let's leave it

:18:59.:19:04.

there, there is such a long delay on the wind that it is hard to have a

:19:05.:19:07.

conversation with you, but I am grateful to you for turning up and

:19:08.:19:11.

asking these questions. It is early days and the figures have just come

:19:12.:19:15.

out. It is very complicated but we will be poring over them and getting

:19:16.:19:18.

more detail and we will come back to this subject, to work out if we have

:19:19.:19:23.

a clearer picture of the national insurance figures and the migration

:19:24.:19:27.

figures from the EU. These are figures that have just come out. And

:19:28.:19:31.

even we cannot get over them that quickly.

:19:32.:19:34.

Now, dramatic scenes in the Welsh Assembly yesterday.

:19:35.:19:36.

An informal coalition of Plaid Cymru, the Conservatives

:19:37.:19:39.

and Ukip successfully blocked a vote to re-appoint Carwyn Jones

:19:40.:19:43.

as the country's First Minister, following the Welsh Assembly

:19:44.:19:46.

elections last week in which Labour lost its overall majority.

:19:47.:19:51.

However, this programme understands that Ukip's leader in Wales -

:19:52.:19:54.

he's called Nathan Gill - has been in talks with Labour

:19:55.:19:56.

about giving his support to Carwyn Jones in return

:19:57.:19:58.

for a proposal to scrap the tolls on the Severn Bridge.

:19:59.:20:01.

Now, if this were true, it would deny the chance

:20:02.:20:04.

of Plaid Cymru's leader becoming Wales's First Minister.

:20:05.:20:11.

We can talk now to Simon Thomas, an Assembly Member for Plaid's Cymru.

:20:12.:20:17.

-- Plaid Cymru. Simon Thomas, have you heard that Ukip is about to do

:20:18.:20:26.

this is maybe even going to split on the matter? No, we have not heard

:20:27.:20:32.

anything formally about that but it does not surprise me. Ukip have

:20:33.:20:36.

clearly been split since Neil Hamilton challenged the leadership

:20:37.:20:39.

of the group. But Nathan Gill remains the leader in Wales. Labour

:20:40.:20:44.

have a clear choice, now, of course, they can do a deal with individuals

:20:45.:20:48.

like Nathan Gill and Kirsty Williams or they can talk to the mainstream

:20:49.:20:51.

parties about being a proper minority government with a set of

:20:52.:20:55.

policies about which there is consensus. How much would Leanne

:20:56.:21:01.

Wood like to be first Minister? It would be a minority administration

:21:02.:21:05.

of some kind, but does that not have some dangers? Yes, and there is

:21:06.:21:13.

always danger when you take risks in politics but we set up Leanne Wood

:21:14.:21:20.

as a alternative to Carwyn Jones yesterday. Both parties are talking

:21:21.:21:25.

about minority administration is, having to deal and negotiate with

:21:26.:21:28.

other parties in the assembly. Clearly Labour have the largest

:21:29.:21:32.

number, but they have to have a majority. In a parliamentary system,

:21:33.:21:37.

we would expect them to try to form a majority of confidence in the

:21:38.:21:40.

parliament, and that has not happened yet. That is why yesterday

:21:41.:21:45.

we did not come to an agreement. What kind of arrangements did Plaid

:21:46.:21:50.

Cymru have with Ukip to get this vote yesterday? None whatsoever. We

:21:51.:21:56.

told them we were putting up Leanne Wood as First Minister, and they

:21:57.:22:00.

took their own decision as to whether they would support him or

:22:01.:22:14.

Leanne Wood. This is the first election since the proper parliament

:22:15.:22:16.

has been established in Wales, and I think we are starting to be more

:22:17.:22:21.

interesting. A Plaid Cymru administration would certainly shake

:22:22.:22:25.

things up. Many may regard this as more interesting. But it could also

:22:26.:22:29.

be rather unstable if you are dependent on conservative and Ukip

:22:30.:22:37.

votes. What you have just described, Leanne Wood is a pro Europe

:22:38.:22:43.

socialist. Depending on the Conservatives and Ukip does not

:22:44.:22:50.

strike me as a firm base. I think that is a fair point. But neither

:22:51.:22:59.

does a Labour coalition, with support from the Lib Dems. We saw

:23:00.:23:03.

yesterday that they cannot you get support. It is beholden of the

:23:04.:23:10.

opposition to see whether we can reach out and get consensus with

:23:11.:23:15.

other parties on some of these issues, including the health service

:23:16.:23:18.

and the steel crisis, things we need to move upon. At the moment we have

:23:19.:23:22.

to be frank. We did not get a consensus on that yesterday and

:23:23.:23:27.

neither do the Labour Party. All things should be discussed but I

:23:28.:23:31.

would be amazed if the Labour Party were prepared to do a deal with an

:23:32.:23:34.

individual Ukip member like Nathan Gill and it just shows you the level

:23:35.:23:38.

of desperation of the Labour Party at the moment. We will come back to

:23:39.:23:43.

you for one minute to mark your card on how do you think this will play

:23:44.:23:48.

out. It sounds quite obligated. What is your take on this, Olly? It is a

:23:49.:23:54.

difficult situation. It looks utterly absurd for Plaid Cymru to be

:23:55.:24:02.

going in there with the consent of Ukip. If there is a split in Ukip,

:24:03.:24:10.

we're not surprised because they are right back. I was on to say that the

:24:11.:24:16.

Hamilton was an unexploded bomb but he is a completely exploded bomb. I

:24:17.:24:21.

think you can expect a lot of interest from the Welsh Assembly. It

:24:22.:24:26.

does make it interesting. Let me go back to Simon Thomas. Tell us, how

:24:27.:24:31.

do you think this will work out come up and what will be and when will it

:24:32.:24:38.

come, the Welsh administration? We have three weeks to agree this,

:24:39.:24:41.

otherwise there will be a new election. I don't think anyone is

:24:42.:24:45.

looking for a new election. We are all very well paid, and I think the

:24:46.:24:49.

people of Wales expect us to reach an agreement. But that agreement has

:24:50.:24:53.

two reflect that no single party won a majority and it has to reflect

:24:54.:24:57.

that no single party can rule and have a First Minister and a

:24:58.:25:01.

government without the consent of at least one other substantial party.

:25:02.:25:07.

And I think that goes beyond individuals and it is beholden on

:25:08.:25:13.

Plaid Cymru to talk with other parties, if necessary the other

:25:14.:25:18.

parties about wider issues including revitalising democracy. Whatever the

:25:19.:25:21.

government is suggesting we need to hold them to better scrutiny than we

:25:22.:25:26.

have done in the past. Thank you for joining us. A fascinating situation

:25:27.:25:27.

in Cardiff. World leaders are meeting

:25:28.:25:30.

in Central London today for an anti-corruption summit

:25:31.:25:32.

organised by the British Government. David Cameron says he called

:25:33.:25:34.

the summit because corruption is "the cancer at the heart

:25:35.:25:37.

of so many of the world's problems". The Prime Minister has also

:25:38.:25:42.

announced a raft of policies For example, foreign owners of UK

:25:43.:25:45.

properties will be forced to join a so-called "public register

:25:46.:25:54.

of beneficial ownership". That is so that people will be able

:25:55.:26:06.

to see who is behind the company, who owns that particular property.

:26:07.:26:10.

Let's hear what the Prime Minister had to say at the summit this

:26:11.:26:12.

morning. If we want to see countries escape

:26:13.:26:18.

poverty and become wealthy, we need to tackle corruption. If we want

:26:19.:26:23.

countries that have great natural resources, to make sure that they

:26:24.:26:27.

use those to the benefit of their people, we need to tackle

:26:28.:26:30.

corruption. If we want to defeat terrorism and extremism, we have to

:26:31.:26:33.

recognise that corruption and lack of access to justice can often be

:26:34.:26:36.

the way that people are driven towards extremism. So that was the

:26:37.:26:42.

Prime Minister kicking off the anti-corruption conference.

:26:43.:26:44.

Martin Tisne is a transparency expert

:26:45.:26:48.

who's been advising the government on their anti-corruption policies.

:26:49.:26:51.

He joins us from the summit at Lancaster House in London.

:26:52.:26:56.

Just down the road from here. Let's come to you right away. What could

:26:57.:27:05.

be the single most important thing to come out of this summit? I think

:27:06.:27:11.

the single most important thing to come out of the summit is to have a

:27:12.:27:17.

change so that we know who the real owners of anonymous companies are.

:27:18.:27:20.

What we need is to create a global war so it is simply no longer

:27:21.:27:26.

possible to hide behind a company. -- global law. At this point in time

:27:27.:27:32.

anonymous companies are getaway car for criminals and terrorists. If you

:27:33.:27:36.

steal ?100, you can put it under your mattress but if you steal ?10

:27:37.:27:40.

million, what did you do? You set up an anonymous company and buy a big

:27:41.:27:45.

house in Notting Hill. The UK commitment is fantastic, which is

:27:46.:27:49.

that foreign countries seeking to enter into contracts with the UK

:27:50.:27:52.

government will need to disclose their owners are. The real point of

:27:53.:27:57.

the summit is to have systematic global action on this, so that we

:27:58.:28:01.

change the law. Otherwise the risk is a game of whack a mole. We do it

:28:02.:28:07.

and others don't and the companies will register in other

:28:08.:28:09.

jurisdictions. This is a really exciting moment, the first time in

:28:10.:28:13.

the 21st century that global leaders at a high level have come together

:28:14.:28:17.

specifically to fight corruption. Last year the New York Times

:28:18.:28:24.

reported that 85 billion pounds of property had been bought in London

:28:25.:28:34.

alone with cash. Would what is being proposed bring more transparency to

:28:35.:28:39.

transactions like that? Absolutely. I think there are two things going

:28:40.:28:43.

on here. Transparency is good but not in and of itself. What we need

:28:44.:28:48.

is prevention. So we are hoping that it will make it much less likely

:28:49.:28:51.

that it will act as a deterrent for those who are using these ill gotten

:28:52.:28:56.

gains, this cash to buy properties in London and elsewhere. But the

:28:57.:28:59.

second point is equally important. We are hoping that we will have

:29:00.:29:03.

information not only on the real owners of companies but also on

:29:04.:29:07.

contracts. 60% of bribes in the whole world come from public

:29:08.:29:11.

contracting. Those companies, much of the money comes from public

:29:12.:29:19.

contracts and so that is why we welcome the announcement by the UK

:29:20.:29:21.

and also by the Nigerian government to shine a light on public

:29:22.:29:23.

contracts. That means that the information will go to the right

:29:24.:29:26.

people at the right time in the right format, and leads to

:29:27.:29:31.

corruption prosecutions. There are two angles, prevention, deterrence,

:29:32.:29:35.

people will be less likely to buy properties in London with money from

:29:36.:29:38.

ill gotten gains, and also law enforcement, journalists and other

:29:39.:29:42.

bodies will be able to piece together the information. Who owns

:29:43.:29:48.

the company? How is the money spent to avoid prosecution? That is what

:29:49.:29:51.

is absolutely clear and the exciting thing coming out of this. So to take

:29:52.:29:59.

your example of the expensive property in Notting Hill. At the

:30:00.:30:05.

moment, all we know is that this ?25 million house has been bought by the

:30:06.:30:12.

no name company. So after these changes, we find out that it is

:30:13.:30:16.

owned by John Smith or some other name. How do we then establish that

:30:17.:30:25.

John Smith's money is corrupt? This is exactly it. That is the point. Mr

:30:26.:30:30.

Smith owns a company that owns a big house in Notting Hill but what we

:30:31.:30:33.

then need to know is where did that money come from? That company, what

:30:34.:30:38.

other companies is it related to? This is why we are excited to have

:30:39.:30:42.

France and the Netherlands and other countries commit to public

:30:43.:30:46.

registries so we need to know what company they are connected with. But

:30:47.:30:49.

he has probably not brought the money in from France or Holland, has

:30:50.:30:50.

he? No, So how do we find out? We've

:30:51.:31:02.

information on whole real owners of those companies are in a global

:31:03.:31:07.

register of beneficial owners of companies so we can trace the chain.

:31:08.:31:14.

Many times these companies go through 12, 13, changes of

:31:15.:31:17.

companies. We find the beneficial owner. That's the one at the end of

:31:18.:31:21.

the chain, not in the middle of the chain. We know where the money came

:31:22.:31:26.

from because we've information on public contracts in Nigeria, the UK

:31:27.:31:29.

and elsewhere. Stick with us. One final question. What do you make of

:31:30.:31:34.

this, Polly? It's an excellent move. High time. It is sad America and

:31:35.:31:41.

Britain wagged their fingers the whole time at the Third World for

:31:42.:31:44.

corruption and we don't shut every door we could. The Cayman Islands

:31:45.:31:51.

refuse the parities pace. In America, Delaware is one of the

:31:52.:31:57.

great tax evasions. And Nevada. We should do that first. Through those

:31:58.:32:01.

places comes a great deal of this corruption. We could turn off the

:32:02.:32:06.

taps immediately to the Cayman Islands and British Virgin Islands.

:32:07.:32:09.

The Government says it is not democratic. We could tell our banks

:32:10.:32:15.

you will not deal with money from those countries, we do not trust it.

:32:16.:32:20.

The whole financial industry would be dead. General de Gaulle, when he

:32:21.:32:25.

was angry at Monaco for their tax cheating, he surrounded the place

:32:26.:32:29.

with troops and turned off their water supply. We could do the same

:32:30.:32:35.

by turning off their banking supply. Going back to being their colonial

:32:36.:32:41.

masters? They have to be transparent. Britain are taking

:32:42.:32:45.

certain positions. There are like-minded countries at that summit

:32:46.:32:48.

behind you. Maybe not all like-minded. Most of the countries

:32:49.:32:52.

in the word are not represented there. How far away are we from a

:32:53.:32:59.

register of beneficial ownership being global? I understand the logic

:33:00.:33:04.

of that. It would seem to me that will be very difficult to do and

:33:05.:33:08.

we're probably quite a long way away from it? I think there's two things

:33:09.:33:14.

here. This is a really big step in the right direction towards having a

:33:15.:33:18.

global registry of beneficial owners. And the summit very much is

:33:19.:33:23.

about both the developed and developing countries tackling this

:33:24.:33:26.

global issue together. In order, you're right, there are 40 countries

:33:27.:33:30.

coming to the summit today, one of the next staging posts of global

:33:31.:33:33.

summit of open Government partnership in December in Paris,

:33:34.:33:38.

the open Government partnership brings together 70 countries. If we

:33:39.:33:43.

had all those members commit we would have 70 countries in the

:33:44.:33:47.

world. We would be a long way or a closer way to building a global norm

:33:48.:33:51.

to fight the scourge of corruption. Thank you for joining us from the

:33:52.:33:57.

anti-corruption summit at Lancaster House in London

:33:58.:33:58.

Now, the Culture Secretary John Whittingdale has been outlining

:33:59.:34:00.

the government's plans for the future of the BBC this morning.

:34:01.:34:03.

The BBC's Royal Charter - the agreement which sets

:34:04.:34:05.

the broadcaster's rules and purpose - expires in December.

:34:06.:34:08.

And today's White Paper outlines how the corporation will be run

:34:09.:34:12.

Let's take a look at the main proposals:

:34:13.:34:19.

The Trust governing the BBC will be abolished and a new board set up

:34:20.:34:22.

Culture Secretary John Whittingdale said this will create a "new, strong

:34:23.:34:31.

unitary board" in charge of the BBC with some government appointments,

:34:32.:34:36.

but at least half the board members decided by the BBC.

:34:37.:34:41.

Ofcom will become the BBC's external regulator and arbitrate on

:34:42.:34:47.

impartiality and accuracy complaints.

:34:48.:34:51.

And the BBC will release details of the salaries of stars

:34:52.:34:54.

The licence fee - which is currently set at ?145.50 a year -

:34:55.:35:07.

It will rise in line with inflation for the next five years.

:35:08.:35:27.

In future, -- 202 I 2 viewers will need to pay the licence fee

:35:28.:35:38.

to use BBC iPlayer - closing a loophole which allowed

:35:39.:35:40.

The charter renewal period will be extended from 10 to 11 years,

:35:41.:35:45.

to make sure any future decisions about the BBC

:35:46.:35:47.

will not clash with election campaigns.

:35:48.:35:54.

And the new charter will "enshrine diversity" measures

:35:55.:35:58.

to ensure the BBC reflects its audiences on and off screen.

:35:59.:36:03.

Let's take a look at what the Culture Secretary has said

:36:04.:36:05.

The new charter will create a unitary board for the BBC that has a

:36:06.:36:20.

much clearer separation of governance and regulation. The board

:36:21.:36:24.

will be responsible for ensuring that the BBC's strategy, activity

:36:25.:36:27.

and output are in the public interest and accord to the mission

:36:28.:36:33.

and purposes set out in the charter. Editorial decisions will remain the

:36:34.:36:37.

responsibility of the Director General and his editorial

:36:38.:36:42.

independence will be explicitly enshrined in the charter while the

:36:43.:36:46.

unitary board will consider any issues or complaints which arise

:36:47.:36:51.

post transmission. That was John Whittingdale issuing a statement

:36:52.:36:55.

very different from much of the speculation that has gone on

:36:56.:36:59.

beforehand about what was in store for the BBC. Let's speak to Damian

:37:00.:37:04.

Green, chairman of the parliamentary all-partiy group of the BBC. Didn't

:37:05.:37:09.

know we had one. And foal low Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen. A

:37:10.:37:11.

critic What's not to like about this? Not a

:37:12.:37:22.

lot. The only shock is they don't pay you more than 4 #50?,000. It is

:37:23.:37:27.

an outrage. Probably the first thing you and I have ever agreed about.

:37:28.:37:32.

Thank you for that! It is broadly sensible. The key thing for me was

:37:33.:37:39.

maintaining the BBC's editorial independence. There were a lot of

:37:40.:37:44.

scare stories,er certainly things that sounded Luke crews, including

:37:45.:37:48.

not allowing the BBC to make popular programmes at peak times. But also

:37:49.:37:52.

this thought that the Government would appoint a majority of the new

:37:53.:37:57.

board members. That's gone away. Clearly a majority of the board

:37:58.:38:00.

members will be appointed by the BBC. The Director General will be

:38:01.:38:05.

explicitly alone responsible for editorial content. That seems to

:38:06.:38:10.

preserve the independence of BBC which is the cornerstone of its

:38:11.:38:17.

appeal. Andrew, has John Whittingdale bottled it? I don't

:38:18.:38:22.

think so. It is a good White Paper. One of my problems with the BBC is

:38:23.:38:26.

the lack of trust in the BBC Trust. You can't have your regulator as

:38:27.:38:30.

your biggest cheerleader. Off cock being brought in to deal with

:38:31.:38:35.

regulation and complaints, that's all very healthy. So, you have no

:38:36.:38:41.

reservations about what's being proposed? Because it bears no

:38:42.:38:45.

resemblance to many of the ideas that were floated in the run up to

:38:46.:38:49.

this White Paper when all sorts of things were meant to be in play for

:38:50.:38:56.

the BBC? Well, as you know, I favoured decriminalisation that led

:38:57.:38:59.

to the David Perry review. It was concluded that the BBC could not

:39:00.:39:03.

cope with decriminalisation and the effect it would have on its revenue

:39:04.:39:10.

stream. We have to be pragmatic. The changes we have here are opening the

:39:11.:39:15.

door to closing the judicial loophole, iPlayer. The BBC accident'

:39:16.:39:20.

get all it wanted. Most people can charge for the goods and services

:39:21.:39:23.

they provide. Sometimes the BBC think they can charge for what their

:39:24.:39:30.

rivals provide. The BBC wanted people to buy a license if they

:39:31.:39:35.

accessed through iPlayer etc. That was reisted by the Government.

:39:36.:39:40.

Damian, there will be concerns inside the BBC about Ofcom

:39:41.:39:45.

regulation and even the National Audit Office, what exactly the

:39:46.:39:50.

detail operational detail it may be able to reveal of things the BBC may

:39:51.:39:55.

think is private. If you step back from all of that, is it not

:39:56.:39:59.

remarkable that the licence fee, which 15 years ago many people

:40:00.:40:03.

thought would not really have much longer to go, hoes now been

:40:04.:40:08.

enshrined and largely linked to inflation for another 11 years. It's

:40:09.:40:12.

there now until the middle of the next decade at the very least. That

:40:13.:40:15.

is quite a remarkable result, is it not? Historically, completely

:40:16.:40:22.

remarkable. I remember in the 1990s, I advised the BBC for a time in the

:40:23.:40:26.

run up to a charter review. It was a given then because of the internet

:40:27.:40:32.

and all that was about to happen that certainly by 2006, nobody

:40:33.:40:36.

thought the BBC licence fee would be sustainable. Here we are, it will

:40:37.:40:41.

still be there in 2027. What's happened is classic British Prague

:40:42.:40:47.

fattism. If you're inventing a theoretical system you would try to

:40:48.:40:52.

fund public service broadcasting some other way not through the

:40:53.:40:58.

license knee. Because it broadly works, by and large the BBC is a

:40:59.:41:02.

hugely important national institution, widely loved in this

:41:03.:41:05.

country. Wyely respected around the world. Actually, doing anything to

:41:06.:41:11.

damage it would be an act of cultural vandalism. We end up with

:41:12.:41:17.

anomalies like the licence fee. It was once called worse than the poll

:41:18.:41:22.

tax? Something worse than the poll tax will enshrine in law and index

:41:23.:41:29.

link to inflation for five or six years, the inflation bit and the

:41:30.:41:33.

licence fee for another 11 years. Worse than the poll tax for another

:41:34.:41:38.

11 years. It is the last gas for the licence fee. It doesn't matter what

:41:39.:41:43.

the Government funding mechanisms. It is about the ninth last gasp over

:41:44.:41:48.

the years. Technology would move forward and will drive the demands

:41:49.:41:52.

of the consumer. That's what I was told at the end of the la charter

:41:53.:41:58.

renewal. After this charter renewal people will be streaming their

:41:59.:42:03.

content online and the BBC can charge for their iPlayer services.

:42:04.:42:07.

They need to charge for that service around the world and bring the back

:42:08.:42:12.

cat lot of BBC World online and use it as a revenue stream. That will be

:42:13.:42:15.

the revenue stream by the end of this charter review. Should all

:42:16.:42:20.

these luvvies that turned the BAFTA awards into a north Korean Communist

:42:21.:42:25.

Party rally get back in their box? Basically, yes. All those who were

:42:26.:42:29.

saying this would be terrible and this Government was going to destroy

:42:30.:42:34.

the BBC, actually, wrong. Go and read the White Paper. Hear what the

:42:35.:42:39.

BBC say. This gives the BBC the chance to carry on doing what it

:42:40.:42:44.

does, what people love, for another ten years with a stable, if slightly

:42:45.:42:50.

anone louse funding regime, which broadly speaking works. It is not

:42:51.:42:55.

like the poll tax. I doubt the Secretary of State or Government

:42:56.:42:59.

will get an apology from the luvvies any time soon. That's also possibly

:43:00.:43:06.

true. We've Richard Wilson on This Week tonight. We'll see. Andrew is

:43:07.:43:12.

happy overall with what's happened. Are you sure you're happy? It is the

:43:13.:43:17.

best deal the Secretary of State could have cut begin the situation.

:43:18.:43:20.

I like the idea of a health check after five years. It has to work.

:43:21.:43:25.

The BBC has huge power. It needs accountability. It is getting the

:43:26.:43:30.

thick end of four billion of taxpayers' money. They deserve more

:43:31.:43:35.

transparency and accountability from the BBC. If it's not, this won't be

:43:36.:43:40.

the solution. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. Polly, I would

:43:41.:43:45.

suggest what's happened here, I've lived through it several times,

:43:46.:43:48.

Governments come into power. They're determined to do something about the

:43:49.:43:52.

BBC. I remember John Major telling me he was going to do it in 1992. Mr

:43:53.:43:58.

Whittingdale seems to want to do it this time. Even Harold Wilson wanted

:43:59.:44:03.

to do something to the BBC. What happens is, more important events

:44:04.:44:07.

take over and even if it was the right thing to do, it is just not

:44:08.:44:11.

worth the candle? Don't underestimate what has happened to

:44:12.:44:15.

the BBC. Doesn't surprise me flakey rebels on the Tory side are backing

:44:16.:44:21.

off. Which one? Andrew Br architis dge negotiation. No, Damian Green.

:44:22.:44:26.

Andrew has it right. Got most of what he wants. There was a decoy out

:44:27.:44:32.

there. We'll decide how to scheduled bake-off and Strictly. What really

:44:33.:44:37.

matters is governance. Never before has the BBC's day-to-day running,

:44:38.:44:43.

its editorial decision-making, been run by political appointees. It is

:44:44.:44:48.

not. It will be enshrined in the BBC who will be given special protection

:44:49.:44:52.

to be independent. The board, will not be able to get involved in

:44:53.:44:57.

editorial matters until after anything has been broadcast, which

:44:58.:45:01.

was the situation under the governance. Nevertheless, it's far

:45:02.:45:07.

closer. There is only one board. That's what it used to be like. They

:45:08.:45:11.

are making decisions about deployments of all kinds. Before, it

:45:12.:45:16.

was are arm's length. A peculiar brand of... The Government appointed

:45:17.:45:21.

all the trustees. Trust was none on... They appointed the governors

:45:22.:45:28.

before the days of the treesees. The majority of people on this board

:45:29.:45:31.

will be appointed by the BBC. The Government will have no say over

:45:32.:45:37.

these appointees? Do you think the BBC will appoint six anti-Government

:45:38.:45:41.

people? Of course they won't. Boards are not like that. They may appoint

:45:42.:45:45.

six independent people. Who's independent? Everyone has their own

:45:46.:45:49.

views. They'll appoint a balance, the BBC is very balanced. The

:45:50.:45:54.

Government gets to a to appoint six people to this board. The chairman,

:45:55.:45:58.

vice-chairman, four from the nations and regions. They'll have to go

:45:59.:46:02.

through the northern procedures. Gone are the days where the Home

:46:03.:46:06.

Secretary calls up his best mate from school. Then the BBC, with the

:46:07.:46:12.

DG leading the way, gets to a point more than six.

:46:13.:46:17.

But they will not necessarily be anti-government people. You seem to

:46:18.:46:22.

be denying that the government is now a huge step closer to the

:46:23.:46:27.

day-to-day running of the BBC than it ever has been in the past. We

:46:28.:46:31.

never had to put up with this. But it is the job of the management

:46:32.:46:36.

committee, not the board, the job of the executive management committee

:46:37.:46:39.

to run the BBC's day-to-day business. The board will not run it

:46:40.:46:44.

like that. But you are closer than ever. Chris Patten has the right

:46:45.:46:49.

idea. He said that these important bodies, Channel 4, Ofcom, the BBC,

:46:50.:46:54.

where editorial decisions are being made, the appointments should be

:46:55.:46:57.

made by an independent commission like you have an independent

:46:58.:47:00.

commission for appointing judges, away from government. The head of

:47:01.:47:05.

Ofcom, and all of these other broadcasting bodies, should be

:47:06.:47:08.

decided entirely independently by a separate commission. Then we would

:47:09.:47:12.

know... Do you think this is a bad deal for the BBC? I think it is a

:47:13.:47:18.

worse deal than it looks. Ofcom is now run by a reputable civil servant

:47:19.:47:21.

but at any point the government could put in somebody else, as they

:47:22.:47:26.

did with the charities commission. Can I just point out that the BBC

:47:27.:47:30.

will have a majority of people on the board. There will be no

:47:31.:47:35.

scheduling at all. There will be no change in the budget deal that has

:47:36.:47:40.

already been done. The licence fee is there for another 11 years. It is

:47:41.:47:45.

index-linked and there is a remit to increased adversity. There is more

:47:46.:47:50.

pressure for the BBC to be distinct, which is what public service

:47:51.:47:55.

broadcasting is. And there is a special independent protection for

:47:56.:48:00.

the Director General. No top sizing and nonpayment of the licence fee is

:48:01.:48:03.

still an offence. True. These are things that have not changed. They

:48:04.:48:08.

have not undermine the BBC. I think the BBC is undermined by the nature

:48:09.:48:12.

of it all, by direct political appointees. I also think it is

:48:13.:48:16.

somewhat undermined by putting it under Ofcom, which is a competition

:48:17.:48:20.

regulator. The BBC is not in a commercial market. Others have to

:48:21.:48:24.

sail along beside it as best they can. But it is in a market. Not

:48:25.:48:30.

really. The idea that lawyers from outside broadcasting would come in

:48:31.:48:35.

and challenge Ofcom to say that the BBC is anti-competitive on this or

:48:36.:48:39.

that or the other. That is a real new arena. The idea that they are

:48:40.:48:43.

told they must be distinctive takes us back. Then, should they really be

:48:44.:48:51.

doing strictly? It is looking at the BBC as if they should be doing only

:48:52.:48:54.

the things that nobody else wants to do. That is not what distinctive

:48:55.:49:01.

means. I'm not sure what the point of public service broadcasting is if

:49:02.:49:04.

you are supposed to be distinctive. It is distinctive and it is the best

:49:05.:49:06.

at what it does on the whole. All eyes may have been on London's

:49:07.:49:08.

election at the weekend. But about 100 miles

:49:09.:49:12.

west of the capital, another race for Mayor

:49:13.:49:14.

was playing out. And it was another success

:49:15.:49:20.

for Labour, as Marvin Rees was elected to the top

:49:21.:49:22.

job in Bristol. After two rounds of voting, he won

:49:23.:49:24.

by a majority of around 30,000 votes, and ousted the incumbent

:49:25.:49:27.

independent Mayor George Ferguson. So who is Marvin Rees and what does

:49:28.:49:38.

his new role allowed him to do? Well, he is 43 and he was raised and

:49:39.:49:44.

born in Bristol. He is married with three children, and in a former life

:49:45.:49:47.

he was a journalist, so we can to be a bad person at all. He worked in

:49:48.:49:51.

public health before switching to politics. No mayor of the city, his

:49:52.:49:55.

responsibility is for local transport policy, housing and local

:49:56.:49:58.

spending. So quite a lot of important things that matter to the

:49:59.:50:03.

people of Bristol. His annual salary will be about ?65,000. And he joins

:50:04.:50:08.

me now. Welcome. Were you expecting to win? I think the omens were good.

:50:09.:50:14.

And what we heard on the doorsteps and the streets. And I think that we

:50:15.:50:19.

anticipated that with a higher turnout, we would stand a stronger

:50:20.:50:23.

chance of winning. How strong pitch, because we had this period of time

:50:24.:50:27.

where you were an independent mayor, independent of major parties, is

:50:28.:50:35.

that being seen as a success or, given that the people have returned

:50:36.:50:40.

to a party nominee, was that an aberration? I think a number of

:50:41.:50:46.

people came to question what independence meant. There is no such

:50:47.:50:49.

thing as independent thought, really. I don't want to pick over

:50:50.:50:54.

the bones of my predecessor because he has been very gracious moving on,

:50:55.:50:59.

but I think there was an element of disappointment between the level of

:51:00.:51:03.

delivery and the promise that was made, that politics would be

:51:04.:51:08.

transformed. I think real political transformation is not just about

:51:09.:51:11.

abandoning political parties, it is about new people from a wider range

:51:12.:51:15.

of backgrounds taking a position of influence. In a sense, we're

:51:16.:51:19.

beginning to see this happen with Sadiq Khan's Victorian London, and

:51:20.:51:24.

your own victory in Bristol. There are new faces to British politics in

:51:25.:51:31.

the 21st century. I think so. And that does not pass me by. Sadiq Khan

:51:32.:51:36.

is the son of a bus driver. As he has told us several times! Was your

:51:37.:51:42.

dad a bus rather? I will not say what my dad did. He was a guy in

:51:43.:51:52.

town. My mum lived in a refuge for a while. Looking at the report an

:51:53.:51:55.

elitist Britain, I should not be here. But that is one of the reasons

:51:56.:51:59.

why I am here, because I do not want a city that is built on chance. And

:52:00.:52:07.

it may be that local government or elected mayors is a way of doing

:52:08.:52:11.

that. I said this to Andy Burnham once, when he was running as mayor

:52:12.:52:16.

of Manchester. We have a picture viewer Jeremy Corbyn, who came down

:52:17.:52:21.

to see you before the victory. Was he an asset or a liability for you

:52:22.:52:26.

on the doorstep? I would say he was incredibly supportive. And in terms

:52:27.:52:30.

of my motivation, he was absolutely supportive. Bristol is a diverse

:52:31.:52:36.

city and in some areas, Jeremy had incredible traction and in other

:52:37.:52:40.

areas, he did not have so much traction. Overall, his contribution

:52:41.:52:43.

to the campaign was incredibly positive and I am grateful for the

:52:44.:52:47.

support from him. Why do you think he came to see you rather than Sadiq

:52:48.:52:51.

Khan? I will not take the question away. I welcome anyone to come to

:52:52.:52:54.

Bristol. Where would you rather be on a sunny day, in Bristol or smoky

:52:55.:53:03.

London? We see a lot of this through the prism of the London mayoral

:53:04.:53:06.

campaign. And we always have had big figures, Ken Livingstone, Boris

:53:07.:53:13.

Johnson, how much was this about you as an individual? And how much was

:53:14.:53:19.

it you as the Labour candidate? It was a lot about me. It was my

:53:20.:53:23.

frustration in the last campaign, with this whole thing of

:53:24.:53:27.

independence. I never crossed the line and ceased to be Marvin who has

:53:28.:53:31.

my background and my network of friends, I was a guy who joined the

:53:32.:53:36.

Labour Party in my mid 30s, and took up the challenge of getting elected,

:53:37.:53:39.

to make things happen through electoral politics. And that element

:53:40.:53:45.

of my appeal outside the party boundaries brought me incredible

:53:46.:53:48.

support and sometimes costly challenges. Was I really Labour or

:53:49.:53:52.

was I a guy who jumped on the train late in the game? I think the Labour

:53:53.:53:55.

Party is about people coming together around shared values. The

:53:56.:53:59.

values of my upbringing are the values that I found among people in

:54:00.:54:03.

the party and I can rally with them and try to get things done for

:54:04.:54:06.

people left behind. We will see how it goes. It is an exciting time.

:54:07.:54:08.

Thank you very much. Time now for the answer to

:54:09.:54:09.

our question. I forgot to brief Polly on its! What

:54:10.:54:12.

rule has been overturned? B) Allowing people to throw

:54:13.:54:24.

underwear on stage? C) Allowing the show to be presented

:54:25.:54:28.

by yours truely? D) Repealing its ban

:54:29.:54:31.

on the Welsh flag? Do you have an idea, Polly? I don't

:54:32.:54:40.

think it is knickers. It is perhaps the Welsh flag. It is. Apparently it

:54:41.:54:46.

was revealed on the Daily Politics that there was a revealed that there

:54:47.:54:51.

had to be nation state flags are supposed to national flags, like the

:54:52.:54:58.

Scottish sole tyre. I'm sorry it is not you replacing Terry Wogan. It

:54:59.:55:03.

would be fun but now one can replace Terry Wogan. He alone was the reason

:55:04.:55:05.

for watching it. So, as you have seen from our quiz,

:55:06.:55:06.

politics and passions run particularly high

:55:07.:55:08.

round Eurovision time. This year, even more so, as the EU

:55:09.:55:10.

Referendum hangs over the contest. If we do get 'nil points' again,

:55:11.:55:13.

is this a message that we're not wanted in the Union, or shall we

:55:14.:55:18.

just put it down to With us now is Chris West,

:55:19.:55:21.

who's written a definitive book on the politics of Eurovision,

:55:22.:55:26.

and BBC presenter Paddy O'Connell who's in Stockholm covering

:55:27.:55:29.

the competition for BBC radio. Chris West, are you going to be nice

:55:30.:55:43.

to the UK this year? I think so. I think we have a good song, and good

:55:44.:55:49.

singers. So yes, I think they are going to do OK. You think we might

:55:50.:55:53.

have a chance of maybe not winning but still high up there are? Top

:55:54.:56:01.

ten, very well. Paddy, you are our man in Stockholm. What is the mood

:56:02.:56:05.

among the competition? Is the referendum being talked about?

:56:06.:56:09.

Notice was ugly but there are echoes. Every year there is a leave

:56:10.:56:18.

remain argument about the contest. This year, Russia is controversial.

:56:19.:56:31.

They are not sending in a bare-chested Vladimir Putin, the

:56:32.:56:34.

ascending in a younger man. And the bookies say that they were when. So

:56:35.:56:38.

the Russians are the -- so the Russians are the favourite?

:56:39.:56:42.

Interesting. Stockholm is one of the internet capitals of Europe but

:56:43.:56:45.

clearly, with our connection, not today. You have written about the

:56:46.:56:50.

soft power of Eurovision. That it is a strong political force and will

:56:51.:56:54.

betide any country that ignores it. What do you mean by that? If it was

:56:55.:56:58.

a country like Sweden, over the last ten years, they have put themselves

:56:59.:57:05.

forward as a progressive, creative and well organised, competent

:57:06.:57:08.

country. They have done very well, they have had very good singers.

:57:09.:57:12.

Their entry in 2012 has sold records around the world. I'm sure my age

:57:13.:57:18.

with records! Downloads, whatever. There is a lot of good stuff about

:57:19.:57:22.

Sweden that comes through the Eurovision Song contest. Are the

:57:23.:57:28.

Swedes happy to host this? It is a huge expense. It is a very expensive

:57:29.:57:34.

events to mount. It is. They are even joking about it from the stage.

:57:35.:57:39.

There is a lot of irony on the stage about how expensive it has been. And

:57:40.:57:46.

they take six weeks to nick their national entry here, so in a way

:57:47.:57:54.

they will be quite happy to bump along the next few years. And do you

:57:55.:57:57.

go along with the bookies favourite? If it is not the Russians, who are

:57:58.:58:02.

the other two or three that we should keep an eye on? I love

:58:03.:58:08.

Austria because they are singing in French, it is a French song. And

:58:09.:58:14.

Chris is nodding. We will keep an eye on Austria as well. And if you

:58:15.:58:19.

like country music, the Netherlands, the artist is basically singing

:58:20.:58:27.

British, and the whole contest is bonkers than ever. There are more

:58:28.:58:35.

thighs on the stage than now knows. -- Nandos.

:58:36.:58:38.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:39.:58:44.

I'll be on This Week with Alan Johnson, Michael Portillo,

:58:45.:58:47.

and DJ Annie Nightingale joining me from 11.45pm tonight.

:58:48.:58:54.

And I'll be back here at noon tomorrow with all the big political

:58:55.:58:57.

Drinking small amounts of alcohol isn't without risk.

:58:58.:59:06.

Eat more of this, drink more of that -

:59:07.:59:14.

can we really eat and drink our way to better health?

:59:15.:59:19.

Because my mother had dementia, there's always that anxiety -

:59:20.:59:23.

Andrew Neil discusses the government's new white paper on the BBC with Conservative MPs Damian Green and Andrew Bridgen.

The Office of National Statistics publishes its thoughts on the discrepancy between the official immigration figures and the number of national insurance numbers issued to EU nationals. UKIP's Steven Woolf give his thoughts.

Plus David Cameron's plans to tackle corruption, and could the EU referendum affect the UK's chances at the Eurovision Song Contest? The Guardian's Polly Toynbee keeps Andrew company throughout the show.


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