13/05/2016 Daily Politics


13/05/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by journalist Sam Coates to discuss the investigation into Conservative election expenses. Plus an interview with Ukip's Welsh Assembly member Mark Reckless.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Questions are still being asked over whether the Conservatives broke

:00:41.:00:43.

the law during last year's General Election campaign.

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At least nine police forces and the Electoral Commission

:00:50.:00:57.

are investigating whether some campaign spending was within

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the rules, while today there are new claims that mail shots

:01:00.:01:01.

Wales is still without a First Minister, with Labour

:01:02.:01:05.

and Plaid Cymru deadlocked over who should get the job.

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We'll be asking Ukip who they're going to back.

:01:08.:01:10.

We've been to Strasbourg to find out whether the EU's deal with Turkey

:01:11.:01:14.

over the migrant crisis could be close to collapse.

:01:15.:01:25.

You may or may not think much of the EU, but how European do we really

:01:26.:01:33.

feel? I don't know, I feel I am British

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and English, that's it. All that in the next hour,

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and with us for the first half of the programme today is Sam Coates

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of the Times, a paper which, it was once said, is read

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by the people who run the country. Well, we do count the Queen

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as a loyal viewer. First today, the International

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Monetary Fund are in London this morning for what was meant to be

:02:01.:02:05.

the IMF's regular review But managing director

:02:06.:02:08.

Christine Lagarde, flanked by Chancellor George Osborne,

:02:09.:02:13.

devoted most of the press conference to what she said was the risk

:02:14.:02:18.

to the UK economy if it votes She was asked by the BBC's

:02:19.:02:22.

Kamal Ahmed why the IMF felt it was appropriate to intervene

:02:23.:02:27.

in such a heated political We do that on a regular basis

:02:28.:02:31.

when there is a major We do that because we need

:02:32.:02:38.

to have a dialogue with authorities that are in power, in position

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and can actually take ownership of their policies and explain

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to us what their policies In the case of a referendum,

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that is another matter. The authorities are not going to be

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removed as a result of such matters. She did not intervene because there

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is an election, but she feels free to intervene even though there is a

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referendum, which many people may regard as even more important. How

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does that work? She is going to intervene again within a week of the

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referendum debate, because they will publish a full report flushing out

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all of the fire and brimstone and fire consequences that will follow.

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Is that fair? George Osbourne will be delighted that his friend has

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promised to deliver for the Remain side. They will not be handing off

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every word she says in Burnley today, I don't think this is a

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moment where there will be a big bout, but it is a building block of

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the Government and Remain case, there is a clean sweep of big

:03:59.:04:03.

international institutions that think it would be risky to vote

:04:04.:04:10.

Remain. She has a nice way with words, she says, I have talked to

:04:11.:04:14.

people, it is between quite bad and very, very bad if we leave. What she

:04:15.:04:23.

says is the IMF people have seen credible forecasts that we could

:04:24.:04:27.

lose up to 10% of our GDP if we vote to leave. Is this not getting

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ridiculous? We would be more serious than the great crash of 2008, which

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did not take 10% from us, more serious than the great depression,

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than the First World War. More serious than since the Romans landed

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on the south coast, 10% of GDP. It is more than a lot of the other

:04:54.:04:57.

forecasts we have had. It is a forecast... She had looked at what

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she called credible forecasts that range from 1.5 to 9.5. We don't know

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who the 9.5 is, which is key. The way that this works... At the IMF

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has been a political institution, that is how it will be attacked by

:05:18.:05:22.

the Leave campaign. You could make the case that it missed the

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financial crisis. You could say it asked Britain to change course at

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the point where the economy was recovering, and it did not need to.

:05:33.:05:38.

You can make a good case that its track record is chequered. Leave

:05:39.:05:44.

have put out a press release reminding people that Christina God

:05:45.:05:46.

could face criminal charges, there are no big institutions that Leave

:05:47.:05:53.

will not aim their bazooka at. They are playing the woman, not the ball.

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The question for is today is, what does former cabinet minister

:05:58.:06:01.

and Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith think

:06:02.:06:03.

Is it a) traffic wardens, b) the Treasury, c) the Britain

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Stronger In Europe campaign, or d) rain on bank holidays?

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And later on in the show Sam will give us the correct answer.

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Let's talk about the row over the Conservative Party's

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2015 election expenses, a matter which reached

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It's been a slow-burning story, but it's one that showing no

:06:22.:06:26.

signs of going away, as Channel 4 News continues

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If anything it's getting worse for the Tories.

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Yesterday the Election Commission took the party to court to force

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the party to hand over crucial documents which had been

:06:36.:06:38.

requested but which the party had failed to release.

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In April the Conservatives admitted failing to declare ?38,000

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of General Election expenses after a Channel 4 News investigation

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flagged up discrepancies in their election returns.

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The party blamed an "administrative error" for failing to register

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the accommodation costs of activists in their Battlebus 2015 operation,

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which bussed young activists around the UK to campaign in target seats.

:07:11.:07:16.

The Electoral Commission is conducting an investigation

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into this expenditure as there are strict guidelines

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on spending in individual constituencies.

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But the Conservatives say the Battlebus was part of a national

:07:26.:07:28.

campaign organised by Conservative central office, and therefore

:07:29.:07:32.

did not form part of the spending limit for individual candidates.

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In total, nine police forces are investigating whether election

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spending for candidates was properly recorded.

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Yesterday the Electoral Commission took the unusual step of making

:07:47.:07:49.

a court application to force the party to disclose

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And this morning we learn that police have been asked

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to investigate whether letters sent in David Cameron's name

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during the General Election campaign were also in breach

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Well, Conservatives haven't exactly been falling over themselves to talk

:08:09.:08:17.

about this story on air, but we did get the chance to ask

:08:18.:08:22.

the former party chairman Grant Shapps about it

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As chairman of the party, you allowed the expenses

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of these campaigners, who were going to local

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constituencies, staying in local hotels, you allowed them to be

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charged to the national campaign and not the local campaign?

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I was co-chairman, but compliance was not my side, the campaigning

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side was my side, but not the finance.

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You were behind the battlebus business.

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The campaign, but not the compliance.

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You did not wonder about the charges?

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I am not one to shirk my responsibilities,...

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Well, we're joined now by the BBC's Ross Hawkins.

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He's been looking into this story, which, as we said, is the product

:09:22.:09:24.

of a four-month-long investigation by Channel 4 News.

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We have also been reporting it regularly. Tell us about the

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mailshot development. The Liberal Democrats, one in particular, he

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says there is a problem with letters that got sent in David Cameron's

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name. They did not mention the constituency or say vote for a

:09:49.:09:52.

certain candidate, but they mentioned the place. The

:09:53.:09:55.

constituency. The letter mentioned the word Torbay repeatedly, and

:09:56.:10:02.

says, you have to vote Conservative in Torbay when the election comes.

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The point being made by the Liberal Democrat is, given as there was only

:10:08.:10:11.

one Conservative in Torbay, that was in support of the local candidate.

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The Conservatives say there is no mention of that candidate, and as

:10:17.:10:20.

far as they are concerned, this counts as national spending. The

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thunder -- you have a great big limit for national spending and a

:10:33.:10:39.

limit for local spending. The Conservatives were acting on the

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basis of understanding that they have done for years, it has been

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suggested to me that other parties have done this for years as well.

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The Channel 4 News investigation has challenged what the law means, and

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the law is fantastically vague. The test as to whether spending is local

:10:57.:11:00.

or not is whether it is with a view to or in connection with promoting

:11:01.:11:04.

or procuring the candidate's election. My goodness, what could

:11:05.:11:09.

that mean? It could mean a visit from a bus, it could not. The people

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who will tested the police and the courts. This is an issue of criminal

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responsibility. This is the distinction, if you overspend

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nationally, the actual commission investigates you, and if you get it

:11:24.:11:28.

wrong, you could pay fines, but it is not become an act. If you

:11:29.:11:33.

overspend at a constituency level, some of the money you have dedicated

:11:34.:11:36.

to your national campaign should have been logged with the local one,

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that is a criminal offence, you can go to jail for that, and that is why

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the police are investigating. Yes, and you could lose your seat. We

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have two parallel bits of law, to parallel investigates Reebok is, at

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both working around the one thing will affect the other, because if

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you did not get the National return right, the local one could be wrong.

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A whole bunch of police forces, who do not consider the final points of

:12:06.:12:09.

electoral law, are having to make a complex and sensitive decision about

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whether to ask for more time and fun to do this. If you were the one

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police force who did not bother, you risk looking a Charlie, if you are

:12:18.:12:23.

the four factors, quite a big risk on a very high profile place. A lot

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of chief constables are having to think hard about the decisions they

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make. The benchmark is quite high if you are the candidate, it has to be

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shown, because your agent signs of the spending in the constituency,

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that you knowingly sanctioned this extra spending for it to become

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criminal. You have to knowingly have submitted a full Sutton. That might

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be difficult. We are not lawyers, but you can go to a court case, find

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out somebody had done this knowingly, because they were

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following orders, the same orders that had held for previous

:13:02.:13:04.

elections, and people would turn around and look at those people at

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HQ, on whom there would not be a legal obligation, because they were

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not the ones that signed off the local return. Keep on it, we shall

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see where it goes. Well, we did naturally ask

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the Conservative Party for an interview this morning,

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but none was forthcoming. We also asked the Labour Party

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if they wanted to speak to us, But I am joined from our Leeds

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studio by the Liberal Democrat MP Greg Mulholland, he sits

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on the party's campaigns committee, and from Northampton

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by the professor of electoral law Can you give us a take on what

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potentially are the election rules that have been broken and what are

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the possible consequences? If one of the candidates did knowingly break

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election law by either overspending on their election expenses or by

:13:59.:14:04.

corruptly making a false declaration, there are quite serious

:14:05.:14:08.

consequences. If they just overspend, they would be liable to a

:14:09.:14:14.

fine and upon conviction they would be liable to a fine and liable to be

:14:15.:14:20.

suspended, thrown out of politics of three years. If they made a full 's

:14:21.:14:24.

return on their election expenses, in the way that somebody did

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allegedly some years ago, they would be liable to two years in prison and

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to be banned from sitting for Parliament for five years. There

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would be a by-election? Yes. That may come to you, -- let me come to

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you, is it not the case that all of the major parties use these

:14:52.:14:53.

battlebus is locally but they charge them to the national spend? I don't

:14:54.:15:00.

think that is the point. That is not the thrust of the excellent Channel

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4 News investigation. They have found documentation involving

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activists brought into some of these constituencies that showed up there

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were indeed being asked to and giving information to campaign for a

:15:19.:15:21.

local candidate in a local seat, and in the case of the letters

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identified, it clearly says Torbay. I can tell you, from my years as a

:15:29.:15:34.

candidate, I have always clearly been told by our party HQ that

:15:35.:15:40.

something if it mentions the area of the constituency or the candidate,

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it has to be declared on local expenses. That is a mistake that

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needs to be love that. All the major parties use Battle

:15:47.:15:59.

buses, all the major parties, but are you saying that the other

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parties use these for the national campaign and the Liberal Democrats,

:16:05.:16:07.

labour to your knowledge, whoever, they don't bus in activists to fight

:16:08.:16:15.

for a constituency on the East Battlebuses? We don't get the vast

:16:16.:16:22.

sums from business that the Conservatives do and we don't get

:16:23.:16:26.

the large sums from trade unions that Labour do. It is about the

:16:27.:16:41.

specific issue as to whether it is helping the local candidates. I

:16:42.:16:43.

understand, an interesting and important distinction. I can see how

:16:44.:16:49.

long this story has been running since it was first broken on Channel

:16:50.:16:54.

4 News. Is there not a sense that the electoral commission needs to

:16:55.:16:59.

have greater powers than the ability to access relevant data more quickly

:17:00.:17:03.

and more easily? As I understand it, we are almost at the end of the

:17:04.:17:07.

statute of limitations on this, they will need to ask for extra power,

:17:08.:17:12.

for more time to investigate it? There are two points there. The

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answer to your general question, should the electoral commission have

:17:17.:17:20.

more power to investigate, most people in the investigation will say

:17:21.:17:24.

yes but the issue about the statute of limitations, yes, under section

:17:25.:17:32.

176 of the relevant act, representation of the people act,

:17:33.:17:37.

the police get one year but they can go to the magistrates and ask for

:17:38.:17:41.

that to be extended to a period of two years. That is my understanding

:17:42.:17:46.

that that is under active consideration at the moment. Two

:17:47.:17:54.

years is the cut-off. It's clear the police do the job properly and will

:17:55.:17:58.

need to extend the time. How seriously are the Tories worried

:17:59.:18:03.

about this? Perhaps not as seriously as you might think, judging from the

:18:04.:18:06.

conversations I've had. The point that keeps being made to me is that

:18:07.:18:11.

we think that the hurdle that the police need to prove is that people

:18:12.:18:18.

knowingly and corruptly engaged in, as it were, fraudulent activity. If

:18:19.:18:24.

it was the case that Conservative headquarters legal advice President,

:18:25.:18:28.

what was believed to be the way that other parties campaigned all went

:18:29.:18:32.

along and did similar things to this, they believe it's going to be

:18:33.:18:36.

quite hard to mount prosecutions against individual MPs and force

:18:37.:18:41.

by-elections. You have a slightly chequered history in terms of

:18:42.:18:45.

electoral law enforcement in this country, the electoral commission's

:18:46.:18:49.

own record isn't that part. I think the test is very significant. No

:18:50.:18:55.

police force will want to be seen not to investigate, but when it

:18:56.:18:59.

comes to charging I think that is a different matter. Let me get a

:19:00.:19:03.

reaction from you, Mr Mulholland, to what Sam has just been saying. Those

:19:04.:19:07.

are issues for the Conservative Party but I think the fact that they

:19:08.:19:14.

are being dragged to the High Court because they weren't supplying

:19:15.:19:20.

information, that shows there Zurich 's questions that need to be

:19:21.:19:24.

answered. We need to get serious in capping donations per person per

:19:25.:19:30.

year at ?10,000, which we want to do but the other two parties are not

:19:31.:19:33.

prepared to do, they'll is walk away when we get to that stage in talks.

:19:34.:19:39.

What is the significance of this complaint now about letters being

:19:40.:19:46.

sent out in David Cameron's name mentioning the constituency? Is that

:19:47.:19:50.

on the margins of wrongdoing or is that something that should be taken

:19:51.:19:54.

seriously as well? I think that should be taken seriously because if

:19:55.:20:01.

they are mentioning individual candidates in individual

:20:02.:20:04.

constituencies, that ought to be... They don't mention the candidate but

:20:05.:20:07.

they mention the constituency, Ross was telling us. Sorry, Professor.

:20:08.:20:15.

The constituency... Well, I haven't seen the leaflets he was sending

:20:16.:20:19.

out, but I think that is certainly something that there is a serious

:20:20.:20:26.

question to be asked. The problem is, if it's got Conservatives and

:20:27.:20:31.

the former constituency, who do you think the leaflet is in favour of?

:20:32.:20:36.

It's not in favour of the Labour Party in that constituency. I think

:20:37.:20:40.

even I can work that out, Professor! Can I come back to one break point?

:20:41.:20:45.

Very briefly, please. One break point about the knowing, that is a

:20:46.:20:52.

significant point. What I would say to that is when you look at the way

:20:53.:20:55.

the law is tightened up following the Fiona Jones case, the

:20:56.:21:00.

significant tightening of the law, I think knowing is going to be a lot

:21:01.:21:04.

easier to prove than perhaps the Conservatives are suggesting. Thank

:21:05.:21:10.

you very much to both of you for joining us, gentlemen. Sam, Grant

:21:11.:21:22.

Shapps has gone. It is jacket hanging by sugary peg? I think Grant

:21:23.:21:29.

Shapps is quite enjoying the discomfort that Andrew Feldman is

:21:30.:21:32.

feeling over that and doesn't appear to be blinking at the prospect of

:21:33.:21:36.

hanging out to dry over this I think if there were a problem with this

:21:37.:21:40.

and there are prosecutions, I think that folds at Lord Fellman's door

:21:41.:21:45.

which is bad news for David Cameron that he supplies funding for the

:21:46.:21:49.

party. And they are friends going back to Brasenose College.

:21:50.:21:54.

Now, let's talk about Wales, which is still without

:21:55.:21:56.

a First Minister after dramatic scenes earlier this week which saw

:21:57.:21:59.

Labour won most of the seats up for grabs at last

:22:00.:22:03.

week's assembly election, that's 29 out of 60,

:22:04.:22:05.

but that means it failed to secure a majority.

:22:06.:22:07.

It meant that Labour leader Carwyn Jones needed support

:22:08.:22:09.

from opposition groups to come back to govern as First Minister.

:22:10.:22:12.

So on Wednesday, two candidates were put forward,

:22:13.:22:21.

Mr Jones for Labour and Plaid leader Leanne Wood.

:22:22.:22:23.

Labour, of course, backed Mr Jones, along with the sole Lib Dem,

:22:24.:22:36.

whilst the Conservatives, Plaid Cymru and the seven

:22:37.:22:38.

Ukip assembly members supported Ms Wood.

:22:39.:22:39.

Today, Labour and Plaid Cymru hold talks to try and break the deadlock.

:22:40.:22:44.

Assembly Members are expected to meet again next week to vote again.

:22:45.:22:50.

If there's still no decision, they have until 2nd June to decide,

:22:51.:22:55.

Well, yesterday the Daily Politics broke the news that two members

:22:56.:23:02.

of the Ukip group were offering to back Labour over Plaid if certain

:23:03.:23:05.

One of them is Mark Reckless, and he joins us now.

:23:06.:23:12.

Welcome back on the programme. So have you made up your minds yet on

:23:13.:23:17.

who you're going to support, you get? We haven't made up our minds

:23:18.:23:23.

because it depends how much of our manifesto, I spent months writing

:23:24.:23:32.

policies for the 20 devolved areas of Wales, we are able to influence.

:23:33.:23:35.

We would like to see a change of First Minister because we think

:23:36.:23:40.

democracy ultimately requires an alternation of parties who are

:23:41.:23:45.

leaving. When you say we, what do you mean? You're part of Ukip or a

:23:46.:23:49.

different part of Ukip? You are divided on this, aren't you? Seven

:23:50.:23:53.

of us in the assembly were elected which we thought was a fantastic

:23:54.:23:57.

result. We all want to intimate as much of the manifesto as possible.

:23:58.:24:04.

One area of that is scrapping the Severn Bridge tolls. The Severn

:24:05.:24:13.

Bridge act predates the devolution settlement. On the southern bridge,

:24:14.:24:18.

the toll Plaza, it is within Wales and highways were devolved. You need

:24:19.:24:23.

the bridge to go to the other side too. You may be asking the Cardiff

:24:24.:24:27.

assembly to make a deal over which it might not have the power. The St

:24:28.:24:31.

David's Day agreement and the cell commission said that the bridges

:24:32.:24:37.

would be dealt with by matter of agreement between the Welsh

:24:38.:24:40.

government and the UK Government. Ultimately if the Welsh government

:24:41.:24:44.

makes it its priority that it wants to scrap the tolls, there may be a

:24:45.:24:48.

cost to the taxpayer and we think a contribution to the maintenance is

:24:49.:24:56.

appropriate. But ultimately we hope they will abolish them. You have

:24:57.:25:00.

seven members in the Welsh assembly. Yes. How many are supporting Carwyn

:25:01.:25:04.

Jones and how many are supporting Leanne would? We are all supporting

:25:05.:25:08.

Leanne Wood, we all voted for her four days ago and if there was

:25:09.:25:14.

another vote on Tuesday with no changes, we would all voted for her

:25:15.:25:17.

against. So there is no splinter group trying to do a deal with

:25:18.:25:24.

Carwyn Jones? No, there are people individual parties speaking to me as

:25:25.:25:27.

an assembly member and no doubt speaking to others. Every time I

:25:28.:25:34.

have those conversations, I say a key part of our plans is to scrap

:25:35.:25:38.

the Severn Bridge tolls but also develop the East West business links

:25:39.:25:44.

and infrastructure. I think we can benefit from being linked to the

:25:45.:25:51.

stronger economy in Bristol and also... Other than a Time for

:25:52.:25:56.

change, what do you have in on with Plaid Cymru? We want to scrap the

:25:57.:25:59.

tolls and we want to have the blue route for the black route for

:26:00.:26:04.

Heathrow which will create more money to spend in Wales. We would

:26:05.:26:10.

like to have more money for local elections. They are all Plaid Cymru

:26:11.:26:14.

policies as well as Ukip once. If you had to guess the way it works

:26:15.:26:20.

out, who do you think will be the First Minister? I think it's quite

:26:21.:26:23.

likely Plaid Cymru will come to some sort of deal with Labour. I don't

:26:24.:26:28.

think there's any need for us to negotiate with them because we will

:26:29.:26:32.

vote for Leanne, as we showed. There is a lot of overlap in those areas

:26:33.:26:37.

I'm talking about. To improve the east-west links and scrap the tolls.

:26:38.:26:41.

I think it's most likely that Plaid Cymru will cook up some sort of deal

:26:42.:26:45.

with Labour but if possible we would like the opportunity to implement as

:26:46.:26:48.

much of our manifesto as we could and we are willing to work with

:26:49.:26:53.

anyone in Wales to do that. Is Neil Hamilton your new leader in Wales?

:26:54.:27:00.

Yes, he was elected by the Cabinet. I voted for Nathan Kilcourse his

:27:01.:27:04.

opponent, but Neil won the vote and we have a Democratic party and I

:27:05.:27:08.

respect that. So he is the leader in the assembly? Yes. What is Nathan

:27:09.:27:21.

Gill doing now then? He is the leader in Wales. So you have two

:27:22.:27:29.

hopes but only seven members? -- two Popes! We have a group of seven in

:27:30.:27:34.

the Welsh assembly and we will use it for the good of the people of

:27:35.:27:38.

Wales. And we shall keep an eye on you as you do. Thank you very much,

:27:39.:27:40.

Mr Reckless. We know you don't need to love

:27:41.:27:42.

the EU in order to feel European. After all, many leading Leave

:27:43.:27:46.

campaigners have strong Boris Johnson has French

:27:47.:27:48.

and German ancestry, with a bit of Turkish

:27:49.:27:54.

and Russian thrown in too. So do people in this country feel

:27:55.:27:56.

that they have a bond, a cultural affinity,

:27:57.:28:05.

with our continental neighbours? For the mood box today

:28:06.:28:07.

we have come to Croydon, because a lot of this referendum

:28:08.:28:11.

is about identity. Lots of people think

:28:12.:28:13.

about themselves as British, but do they also think

:28:14.:28:15.

of themselves as European? I dunno, I just feel I am

:28:16.:28:17.

British and English. Do you feel European

:28:18.:28:35.

at all? Does it surprise you that

:28:36.:28:42.

lots of British people I think they have a very

:28:43.:28:46.

strong national feeling. I think they have a very

:28:47.:28:56.

strong national feeling. Not in a bad way, but they are proud

:28:57.:29:01.

of their country, it is OK. They are two separate

:29:02.:29:06.

things really, I think. I think the British,

:29:07.:29:10.

mainly because we are an island, People are definite about that,

:29:11.:29:13.

but if I asked a Frenchman or a German or a Spaniard,

:29:14.:29:21.

they would feel European as well. We have all trade, we have all our

:29:22.:29:26.

holidays in Europe, so we have Would you also say

:29:27.:29:49.

you were a European? Welsh first, then European,

:29:50.:29:53.

I would say. "I am holding my Welsh identity

:29:54.:30:05.

but I see myself as European," I think we are all part of a bigger

:30:06.:30:12.

world, and you can't No, I am not a European,

:30:13.:30:19.

I am an Englishman and This result is unexpected,

:30:20.:30:27.

but also quite complicated. No was winning clearly to start

:30:28.:30:39.

with, then a number of people who live here but are European,

:30:40.:30:43.

a third of those yeses were people who are Europeans

:30:44.:30:47.

who live in Britain... That is all Brits who don't feel

:30:48.:30:49.

European. It is almost ending

:30:50.:30:53.

up with yes in front. I try not to predict these things,

:30:54.:30:57.

I did not expect this result. That was Giles with the entirely

:30:58.:31:01.

unscientific mood box. Well, we're joined now by one

:31:02.:31:03.

man who feels European. He's the former MEP and father

:31:04.:31:06.

of Boris, Stanley Johnson. And by one woman who doesn't,

:31:07.:31:08.

the etiquette expert Liz Brewer. Put aside the mood box, according to

:31:09.:31:24.

more scientific surveys 64% of British people don't feel any sense

:31:25.:31:29.

of European identity. You are not winning. I am surprised with that.

:31:30.:31:37.

We have to distinguish between feeling European and separating out

:31:38.:31:43.

from the EU. This was European identity, it was carried out by the

:31:44.:31:51.

European Commission. They would have liked a different result. 51%

:31:52.:31:56.

increase, 43 Ireland, 36 France. We were the least. I am related to

:31:57.:32:03.

Boris, you have seen in the introduction his European men

:32:04.:32:09.

launch, a French word there, and etiquette is a French word. Do I

:32:10.:32:14.

field European? I was born in England, I am British, but if I

:32:15.:32:21.

field European, no, I feel English. You teach etiquette, which is a

:32:22.:32:26.

French word. We have many French words,... It might be a Norman word.

:32:27.:32:34.

Which I don't like! You ask me a question, what do I feel? I bought

:32:35.:32:40.

myself an apartment in Berlin, I go there, I still don't field European,

:32:41.:32:46.

I still feel very British. You feel like a Berliner! I feel exactly the

:32:47.:32:53.

same as I do here. Why did you buy one? Investment! I feel European

:32:54.:32:59.

because my ancestors came from Europe. One or two came from

:33:00.:33:03.

Britain, my mother was half French, I have turkeys and Shastri, so I

:33:04.:33:10.

feel I am rooted in this. Where you are brought up, you have tradition,

:33:11.:33:18.

values, a way of behaviour, and it is different, we are different from

:33:19.:33:24.

people overseas. Culture is different. The Romans were here for

:33:25.:33:30.

400 years, the Normans, people were speaking French here until the 13th

:33:31.:33:36.

or 14th century. Norman French, but still pretty good French. Not if you

:33:37.:33:46.

came from Paris! The road to Rouen! Is there anything he could say to

:33:47.:33:49.

convince you? You could be on a sticky wicket. You start talking

:33:50.:33:57.

European, we are multinational. Mike Russell is the fact that when we go

:33:58.:34:03.

overseas, we conform, and we learn how to behave in their culture. I

:34:04.:34:09.

agree on one thing, the Englishness. I don't feel British, I feel

:34:10.:34:14.

English. On that point, we will leave them to try to convince each

:34:15.:34:16.

other. It's time now to find out

:34:17.:34:17.

the answer to our quiz. The question was, what did

:34:18.:34:19.

Iain Duncan Smith say Was it a) traffic wardens,

:34:20.:34:22.

b) the Treasury, c) the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign,

:34:23.:34:26.

or d) rainy bank holidays? It was a well-known left-wing

:34:27.:34:28.

critique at the time. Coming up in a moment

:34:29.:34:37.

it's our regular look at what's been For now, it's time to say goodbye

:34:38.:34:41.

to my guest of the day. So, for the next half

:34:42.:34:45.

an hour we're going to be We'll be discussing

:34:46.:34:49.

the European Commission's decision to block a major mobile-phone

:34:50.:34:52.

merger, the EU's deal with Turkey and what's been happening

:34:53.:34:55.

in Portugal since the crash. First, though, here's our guide

:34:56.:35:02.

to the latest from Europe No doubt it was in your diary,

:35:03.:35:04.

who could forget Europe Day? People came together to mark

:35:05.:35:20.

the annual celebration of peace and unity, even Nigel Farage

:35:21.:35:22.

was caught humming Beethoven's Back in the real world,

:35:23.:35:25.

ambassadors were dealing with the migrant crisis,

:35:26.:35:31.

backing a European Commission plan to extend internal border controls

:35:32.:35:34.

for a maximum of six months. New rules were passed to make it

:35:35.:35:38.

easier for Europol to set up units to respond immediately

:35:39.:35:42.

to terrorist threats. US officials are cheesed off

:35:43.:35:45.

with one warning that the transatlantic trade deal

:35:46.:35:48.

could be scuppered by plans to ban the sale of American-made products

:35:49.:35:51.

labelled feta or champagne. It came under strain with 11

:35:52.:35:56.

countries showing a yellow card to the European Commission

:35:57.:36:00.

over its recent proposal to ensure equal pay

:36:01.:36:03.

for workers posted overseas. And with us for the next 30 minutes

:36:04.:36:06.

I've been joined by the Ukip MEP Jonathan Arnott and the Labour MEP

:36:07.:36:17.

Richard Howitt. Let's take a look at one of those

:36:18.:36:23.

stories in more detail, and that's the decision by a group

:36:24.:36:26.

of Eastern European governments to flash a yellow card

:36:27.:36:28.

at European Commission proposals to level wage differences

:36:29.:36:31.

between local workers and those sent abroad within the EU,

:36:32.:36:36.

known as posted workers. It is quite hard to make the yellow

:36:37.:36:50.

card stick? This is the third time it has happened, but this is the

:36:51.:36:55.

democracy in Europe, national parliaments having a voice. The deal

:36:56.:37:00.

going to the British referendum is a red card. On this issue, I and my

:37:01.:37:04.

party want action to stop exportation of rights. We will carry

:37:05.:37:10.

on doing that we want that to change. But the fact that there is a

:37:11.:37:13.

democratic debate going on, one that I believe we can win, on the

:37:14.:37:22.

fundamental principle of equal pay for workers, whichever country you

:37:23.:37:27.

are from, that is a big detection for low paid, insecure workers in

:37:28.:37:31.

Britain, but I expect we can win that, but in a democratic fashion.

:37:32.:37:35.

That is what European politics should be about. What do you say on

:37:36.:37:41.

the ability of European Parliament 's to lay down a yellow card if they

:37:42.:37:46.

don't like what is going on? As has been mentioned, it is only the third

:37:47.:37:50.

time it has happened. It is a difficult procedure to implement,

:37:51.:37:59.

very clunky. It takes at least nine countries to all within eight weeks

:38:00.:38:02.

get something through their own individual parliaments to say to the

:38:03.:38:06.

commission, we want you to think again. On one of the previous two

:38:07.:38:12.

occasions when this happened, on the Public prosecutor 's office, the

:38:13.:38:14.

commission said it would plough ahead with that kind of thing

:38:15.:38:20.

anyway. We see that time and time again. Is it likely to happen again?

:38:21.:38:26.

We will see, but if you take that example, we need to clamp down on

:38:27.:38:31.

tax evasion, corruption, and Europe needs to have more teeth. You have

:38:32.:38:39.

changed the goalposts. Having MPs voting against banking regulation

:38:40.:38:42.

and cracking down on tax havens, if that really what people want? Nobody

:38:43.:38:47.

is saying you should not crack down on tax havens. You voted against. We

:38:48.:38:56.

should do that at Westminster, as a British Government, not something

:38:57.:39:00.

which should be done at EU level. You moved the goalposts, because we

:39:01.:39:04.

were having a discussion about the democratic issue, he said how

:39:05.:39:08.

democratic it was, I pointed out it is not that democratic for the

:39:09.:39:13.

commission to plough on anyway, and you moved on to the issue in son of

:39:14.:39:18.

the principal. We shall see, and we thank Jeremy Corbyn for raising

:39:19.:39:21.

this, because we would not have known what it was. Twice. We have

:39:22.:39:27.

now followed it. Now, the ?10.3 billion deal to marry

:39:28.:39:28.

O2 and Three was meant to be a final reshaping of Britain's

:39:29.:39:34.

mobile phone market. It would have left the UK with just

:39:35.:39:36.

three major mobile But the EU's competition

:39:37.:39:39.

commissioner had other ideas and she's blocked the takeover

:39:40.:39:44.

on the grounds it would reduce To tell us more I'm joined

:39:45.:39:48.

by the BBC's technology Nice to see you again. This was a

:39:49.:40:03.

merger between two British companies, largely affecting the

:40:04.:40:09.

British market, what is the provenance of Brussels in this kind

:40:10.:40:14.

of merger? Deals above a certain level to get referred to Brussels.

:40:15.:40:21.

The BT/ EE merger, which was even bigger, that stayed in Britain

:40:22.:40:24.

because just about everything to do with it was happening in Britain. O2

:40:25.:40:31.

and Three are to foreign companies, O2 is owned by Spanish company, it

:40:32.:40:38.

wanted to get rid of it, and Three is owned by a Hong Kong company, it

:40:39.:40:43.

wanted to buy it. They were both keen to have this case decided in

:40:44.:40:46.

Brussels, because they thought Brussels would be kinder to them

:40:47.:40:51.

than our regulator of calm. That worked! Ofcom made its views very

:40:52.:40:58.

strongly known in Brussels, it wrote a number of stiff letters, it said,

:40:59.:41:02.

we don't want to go down from four operators to three, and in the end

:41:03.:41:07.

Russells agreed. That has come as a shock to the whole telecoms

:41:08.:41:13.

industry. This is not a case of this being approved by the British

:41:14.:41:17.

competition authorities and then being overruled by the Brussels

:41:18.:41:20.

competition authorities, this went to Brussels and the British

:41:21.:41:25.

authorities are pretty happy with the result? They are very happy,

:41:26.:41:31.

they seemed worried that Brussels would let it through against their

:41:32.:41:36.

well. The telecoms companies are cross about this, they would rather

:41:37.:41:40.

Europe looks at the market as a whole, how many players there are in

:41:41.:41:47.

the market across Europe, rather than just one country will stop they

:41:48.:41:50.

feel there needs to be consolidation. They don't feel they

:41:51.:41:55.

are making enough money in Europe. They should look at my roaming

:41:56.:42:00.

charges and wonder why! What will be spit companies do now? Is that it

:42:01.:42:08.

over for the merger? It probably is, although there is talk of the Hong

:42:09.:42:12.

Kong company appealing. The Spanish company will look for another

:42:13.:42:16.

partner. It really wants shot of this business. It will hunt around,

:42:17.:42:23.

there is talk of virgin's owner coming in for the business instead.

:42:24.:42:32.

This is quite good news for British consumers, it keeps up choice and

:42:33.:42:37.

competition for mobile phone users. In a lot of ways this is the same

:42:38.:42:40.

principle of the previous discussion we have just had. We have had to go

:42:41.:42:44.

to Brussels to get an answer for something, and in the end of the

:42:45.:42:48.

same thing that Ofcom wanted in the first place. I believe that should

:42:49.:42:54.

have been a decision for the UK to take, whether we have three or four

:42:55.:43:01.

operators in the UK. There are a lot of issues surrounding that, and it

:43:02.:43:04.

should fundamentally be a decision for the British Government. The fact

:43:05.:43:11.

it has been decided by Brussels is a fundamental problem. It seems it was

:43:12.:43:14.

decided by them because that is what the companies wanted. Putting that

:43:15.:43:22.

aside, the number of mobile phone companies we should have operating

:43:23.:43:26.

in Britain should be a matter for the Brits? It is a proposed merger

:43:27.:43:30.

between a Spanish giant and a Hong Kong based giant. They are a good

:43:31.:43:38.

company, they run Felixstowe port in my constituency. But it is for the

:43:39.:43:44.

British market. The EU should not have a view about that? But have

:43:45.:43:51.

also stepped in and stop similar mergers in Denmark and Italy. His

:43:52.:43:56.

point is they should not be doing that either. I can see the point,

:43:57.:44:02.

Brussels getting involved, if it is a matter of European wide

:44:03.:44:07.

commission, -- competition, but if this was about the British market,

:44:08.:44:11.

should it not be left to the British competition authorities? It does not

:44:12.:44:16.

seem that the result would have been any different, but it is a matter of

:44:17.:44:21.

sovereignty. It is another great example where what Britain wanted

:44:22.:44:25.

one, we do win the argument. But it is in Europe's interest that we have

:44:26.:44:32.

investment in mobile phone technology, we have gone to 3G, 24

:44:33.:44:39.

the next generation will be five G, and there is an issue, what will get

:44:40.:44:45.

the new infrastructure invested in by the big companies? It is

:44:46.:44:49.

competition, not consolidation. All of the evidence shows that. I have

:44:50.:44:54.

no problem with competition, the Duquesne should be taking those

:44:55.:44:58.

decisions, and I believe the decision would have been the correct

:44:59.:45:01.

one, had we decided it in the UK. We should not have to apply to Brussels

:45:02.:45:05.

to ask whether they will... Some of these things are good

:45:06.:45:15.

things, why don't we just wake up and recognise it? The average

:45:16.:45:21.

telephone user is paying ?52 less per year on their mobile phone bill

:45:22.:45:24.

because Europe cut the mobile phone charges. Come on. Look, on my phone

:45:25.:45:35.

network, if I'm in Switzerland, if I'm in the USA there are no roaming

:45:36.:45:39.

charges whatsoever. It's called the free market. It's bringing prices

:45:40.:45:46.

down not just in the EU... How much do we pay to be part of the European

:45:47.:45:49.

single market? Now, the deal struck between the EU

:45:50.:45:52.

and Turkey aimed at easing Europe's migration crisis has had some

:45:53.:45:55.

success, contributing to a major easing of the flow of people

:45:56.:45:57.

across the Aegean Sea to Greece. But it's not exactly been

:45:58.:46:02.

without controversy. Part of the deal was to give

:46:03.:46:05.

Turkey's 79 million citizens visa-free access to the EU,

:46:06.:46:08.

and the promise of progress on talks But this week it's looked under

:46:09.:46:11.

serious strain, over Turkey's refusal to change

:46:12.:46:22.

its laws on terrorism. There were a lot of conditions to

:46:23.:46:32.

this Visa free travel laid out by the EU.

:46:33.:46:35.

Our Jo Coburn has been in Strasbourg, finding out more.

:46:36.:46:38.

Migrants crossing illegally from Turkey to Greece

:46:39.:46:39.

The one for one deal so far slowing the influx

:46:40.:46:43.

For every migrant deported to Turkey, a legitimiate Syrian

:46:44.:46:57.

So far, 3 billion euros in aid and the prospect of Visa free travel

:46:58.:47:04.

for its citizens in the Schengen area if the country

:47:05.:47:06.

The question over whether those have been reached has opened up a huge

:47:07.:47:10.

gulf between the commission and the European Parliament.

:47:11.:47:12.

The Turkish visa issue was debated here in Strasbourg this week.

:47:13.:47:16.

With general agreement that the country is still falling short

:47:17.:47:18.

A majority in this Parliament has stated clearly that we believe

:47:19.:47:28.

that over the last years, and especially if you look

:47:29.:47:30.

during the last 12 months, Turkey is increasingly moving away

:47:31.:47:34.

from meeting European standards, rather than doing what one

:47:35.:47:37.

would expect from a candidate EU country, to move towards meeting

:47:38.:47:40.

We have great concerns for the parliament when it

:47:41.:47:43.

comes to the rule of law, democracy, press freedom.

:47:44.:47:45.

There are five EU benchmarks that need to be reached by Turkey.

:47:46.:47:49.

On corruption, data protection, reaching a deal with Europol,

:47:50.:47:53.

judicial cooperation on criminal matters

:47:54.:47:55.

Despite high-level talks between EU officials and Turkish ministers,

:47:56.:48:04.

some MEPs are up in arms about the whole deal itself.

:48:05.:48:08.

I think that the best way forward is to put our own house in order,

:48:09.:48:17.

to solve ourselves the refugee crisis by putting in place European

:48:18.:48:23.

border and coast guards, which we don't have,

:48:24.:48:31.

by putting in place a new European asylum system not long the Dublin

:48:32.:48:34.

system, and putting in place new ways of legal migration.

:48:35.:48:38.

The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, has been

:48:39.:48:42.

of literally rolling out the red carpet for Turkey

:48:43.:48:45.

in exchange for the country's help to deal with

:48:46.:48:47.

There are many MEPs here at the European Parliament who also

:48:48.:48:50.

believe it brings the idea of Turkey's access into the EU

:48:51.:48:53.

That claim has been dismissed by members of her political group.

:48:54.:49:01.

She is really fighting for a good neighbourhood.

:49:02.:49:03.

She is really working on the issue and tries to convince Turkey,

:49:04.:49:06.

because Turkey is an important partner in the Nato partnership.

:49:07.:49:13.

Turkey is important as a neighbour in between this area of Syria,

:49:14.:49:17.

But MPs sceptical of the entire European project claim its leaders

:49:18.:49:24.

are deliberately linking the migrant deal with talks for Turkey's EU

:49:25.:49:27.

membership because they are looking ahead beyond the current crisis.

:49:28.:49:34.

TRANSLATION: Juncker, Schultz and Merkel want to allow

:49:35.:49:35.

Turkey into the European Union because it will mean cheaper

:49:36.:49:38.

labour and lower wages for workers in many countries.

:49:39.:49:42.

MPs are due to vote on the visa free travel deal on June 28,

:49:43.:49:53.

Turkey's president has warned that if his country is not

:49:54.:49:59.

given the Visa waiver, he will end the migration deal.

:50:00.:50:07.

Is this EU, essentially German- Turkey deal, is it in danger of

:50:08.:50:18.

unravelling? Is it sustainable? Doesn't fully respect human rights?

:50:19.:50:25.

We don't know and we are asking some very tough questions about it. Do

:50:26.:50:29.

you have to approve it, as a Parliament? We didn't have too

:50:30.:50:33.

approve the initial deal, our job is to scrutinise it. We also

:50:34.:50:37.

responsible for some of the cash which goes straight through the NGO

:50:38.:50:42.

Global to the refugees to assist them. It has stopped people dying at

:50:43.:50:46.

sea and we have to welcome that, surely. It has improved the welfare

:50:47.:50:50.

of people, hungry and defenceless, in Turkey. RU worried about it? Of

:50:51.:51:00.

course I'm worried about the deal. Some have pulled out because they

:51:01.:51:04.

don't believe international humanitarian law is being respected.

:51:05.:51:08.

Of course I'm worried. Is there a danger that this deal will unravel,

:51:09.:51:12.

or in your view should it unravel, should we have done this deal in the

:51:13.:51:16.

first place? My view is that the UK should vote to leave the European

:51:17.:51:20.

Union. So what the European Union does in its deal with Turkey is up

:51:21.:51:24.

to the European Union. While we're still in it, I have big problems

:51:25.:51:30.

over the VZ deal and the amount of money we're sending to Turkey and

:51:31.:51:34.

other candidate for the European Union. We're sending a lot of

:51:35.:51:38.

British taxpayers's money out to those countries at the moment to

:51:39.:51:42.

help them join the EU and I see that as a massive problem. In terms of

:51:43.:51:47.

the deal itself, if the UK weren't in the European Union, I would say

:51:48.:51:52.

it's a matter for the EU to decide what it wants to do. With the UK in,

:51:53.:51:58.

I have to be concerned... We're not in Schengen, though. It certainly

:51:59.:52:04.

does mean that it's a lot easier for people to get closer to the UK. But

:52:05.:52:11.

the roles for Turkey, the Visa free waiver for Turks, and only about 7

:52:12.:52:15.

million Turks have passports anyway, though it's not like it really is 79

:52:16.:52:20.

million, it still doesn't get them into this country. Are you saying

:52:21.:52:25.

that more Turks wouldn't apply for passports? I'm sure they might, but

:52:26.:52:30.

that's quite a prolonged... I suppose what concerns the blues

:52:31.:52:35.

this. For a longer read, the European Union rewarded Turkey with

:52:36.:52:40.

access shouldn't talk 's and access to the European market. As Turkey

:52:41.:52:44.

liberalised and became more modern and democratic and so on. Now it

:52:45.:52:49.

seems to be rewarding Turkey as it becomes more theocratic, less

:52:50.:52:52.

liberal and more authoritarian. We've seen the Prime Minister who

:52:53.:52:56.

did this deal with the EU come he's been shunted out of the way by the

:52:57.:52:59.

president, who may now be putting one of his relatives in as Prime

:53:00.:53:04.

Minister. That's not good for the EU. Ultimately he wants to change

:53:05.:53:08.

the constitution and have even more power in his hands. I'm not going to

:53:09.:53:12.

hide those concerns but not simply is the Umana Terry and case, but in

:53:13.:53:20.

cost terms it's cheaper to help refugees where they are now rather

:53:21.:53:23.

than coming into Britain. In the local election campaign Ukip ran a

:53:24.:53:29.

party political broadcast where they said 15 million Turks would come to

:53:30.:53:33.

Britain by 2020. It's not true. You've heard the parliamentary

:53:34.:53:36.

negotiator in your interview say this is something they're moving

:53:37.:53:42.

further away from and not closer to. You cannot believe the claims that

:53:43.:53:49.

they make. No one is saying that that many people... No he didn't. So

:53:50.:53:57.

what are you saying? What we're saying is that if Turkey joins the

:53:58.:54:05.

European Union, and more accession chapters are being opened, there

:54:06.:54:10.

would be more rights for them to come. We can't say how many would

:54:11.:54:15.

come but we can say how many had the right to come. Provided we don't

:54:16.:54:20.

veto it, of course, and that the French don't have a referendum, both

:54:21.:54:26.

of which are quite likely. It's something that's only going to

:54:27.:54:31.

happen if ever in the long-term... Using it in this referendum is

:54:32.:54:35.

simply to scare people. The problem with vetoes, of course, is that once

:54:36.:54:39.

you give it up you can't get it back. You've got to trust Cameron

:54:40.:54:47.

not to give it up, Corbyn... Only recently the Prime Minister seemed

:54:48.:54:51.

to be a big fan of Turkey joining the EU and it went to Portugal

:54:52.:54:56.

because it was the third Euro country area to have to ask for a

:54:57.:55:01.

bailout after Greece and Ireland, following the banking crash in 2008.

:55:02.:55:02.

This was done in 2009. Portugal was the third Euro-area

:55:03.:55:06.

country to have to ask for a bailout after Greece and Ireland

:55:07.:55:09.

during the economic crisis of 2009. And it's still facing low

:55:10.:55:11.

growth and struggling In the latest in our

:55:12.:55:13.

Meet The Neighbours series, Adam Fleming has been

:55:14.:55:16.

to find out more. I suppose this is Portugal's

:55:17.:55:28.

Birmingham, its second city, Porto. During the Eurozone crisis Portugal

:55:29.:55:35.

was bailed out by the EU to the tune of 78 billion euro,

:55:36.:55:39.

?62 billion, on the condition they Portugal left the bailout

:55:40.:55:42.

programme two years ago, They are underemployed architects

:55:43.:55:47.

who now host walking tours First stop, a new hotel,

:55:48.:56:01.

built with EU funds. We are not blaming this hotel

:56:02.:56:04.

in particular, or even This hotel had over 5 million euros

:56:05.:56:10.

in tax money from Europe. At least in Portugal there is not a

:56:11.:56:28.

debate on this, there is not a general conversation about what are

:56:29.:56:29.

we supposed to do with tax money. Instead, they would rather see this

:56:30.:56:32.

old car-parts factory spruced up There will be an informal school,

:56:33.:56:35.

some places to take care a workshop for wood

:56:36.:56:49.

and metal in the middle. On the way, you see

:56:50.:56:53.

a lot of empty shops. The thing that upsets them the most,

:56:54.:57:00.

though, is how many of their I feel sad that so many people

:57:01.:57:03.

had to go. That I don't like. Because I don't

:57:04.:57:09.

think it's smart, as a country logic.

:57:10.:57:11.

We desperately need those same people that we lost.

:57:12.:57:13.

Things are looking much, well, rosier here.

:57:14.:57:30.

One partnership owns some big port brands.

:57:31.:57:31.

It is a British-run company that has done OK

:57:32.:57:34.

We bought a number of businesses, we launched businesses.

:57:35.:57:42.

People thought I was insane to be launching a five-star luxury hotel

:57:43.:57:46.

in 2010 in the middle of the crisis, but the truth is people

:57:47.:57:49.

want to travel, people want to explore and discover,

:57:50.:57:53.

and this is what you can do here in Portugal.

:57:54.:57:55.

Yes, recession is tough, but it is in those environments

:57:56.:58:06.

where good businesses tend to do well and the weaker businesses tend

:58:07.:58:09.

Although politics here is now more of a completed cocktail,

:58:10.:58:12.

a coalition government led by socialists, propped up

:58:13.:58:14.

by communists, with a right-wing president, and the European

:58:15.:58:16.

Commission keeping a close eye on what is going on.

:58:17.:58:20.

Adam living the life there in Portugal. The Eurozone crisis never

:58:21.:58:28.

quite goes away, does it? At least the pain for the people most

:58:29.:58:32.

affected. The Portuguese Socialists have struck up a good relationship

:58:33.:58:35.

with British Labour and Jeremy Corbyn personally, and you have a

:58:36.:58:39.

minority government there that is going to be out of the bailout

:58:40.:58:42.

scheme this year and which has replaced a Conservative government

:58:43.:58:45.

that brought in all the cuts but the debt went up. So it's a better news

:58:46.:58:51.

story than we think. OK, we shall see. That's it for now. Thank you

:58:52.:59:01.

for joining us, come back and see us soon am a goodbye for now.

:59:02.:59:03.

Andrew Neil is joined by journalist Sam Coates to discuss the investigation into Conservative election expenses. Plus an interview with Ukip's new Welsh Assembly member Mark Reckless and a look at the latest news from Europe.


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