Browse content similar to 26/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon folks - Welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
Immigration is front and centre of the referendum campaign today | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
as new figures show net migration to the UK rises to the second | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
Leave campaigners say it shows that "immigration is out of control". | :00:45. | :00:55. | |
Those who want us to remain in the EU warn against the creation | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
The Government says it's considering far-reaching changes | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
to pension rules as a means of saving the UK's steel industry. | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
Salford's new Mayor says the Government's welfare reforms | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
are having a detrimental impact on vulnerable people in his area. | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
And, can this woman save us from alien invasion? | :01:16. | :01:23. | |
We reveal the sci-fi cameo of Scotland's First Minister. | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
today is the former Work and Pensions Secretary | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
Now, if Iain was still doing that job he'd probably be far too busy | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
But, in case you were unaware, Iain rather spectacularly relieved | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
himself of the burden of public office which means he's now free | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
to devote all his efforts to the referendum campaign | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
and appear on little programmes like this one. | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
As we come on air the Business Secretary Sajid Javid is making | :01:54. | :02:02. | |
a statement to the House of Commons about the future of | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
Ministers have been considering changes | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
to pensions benefits in order to cut the liabilities | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
of the old British Steel pension fund which is now owned by Tata. | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
It's thought the size of the pension deficit has been a major | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
deterrent to potential buyers of the steel business. | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
One of the options is to switch the rate that the pensions keep pace | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
with prices from the higher RPI measure to the lower CPI measure. | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
Former Lib Dem pensions minister, Steve Webb, had this warning | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
about the wider implications for other pensioners | :02:35. | :02:36. | |
It's not the use of the lower Consumer Prices Index | :02:37. | :02:46. | |
that's really the issue - it's a perfectly good | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
It's more that the steelworkers had a right, in their scheme, | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
to a higher measure of inflation and once you take away the principle | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
that the rights you have already built up can be taken away, | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
That's really the issue, rather than how we measure inflation. | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
You worked with Steve Webb in the work and pensions department, and he | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
is something of an expert on pensions. So he knows what he's | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
talking about. He does. I enjoyed working with him. Good colleague. Is | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
he right about the dangerous precedent which would be set? I have | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
not seen what the government is proposing. I would say that there is | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
an element in what Steve said this morning, which is a concern, which | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
is... I can understand the need to find some sort of solution to the | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
steel industry problem. And to get those debts down. But there is just | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
an element he is talking about, once you start one exception, then all of | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
a sudden you get a line-up of exceptions. They say if it is OK to | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
the steel industry, then what about us? And because there is a huge | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
deficit out there, and this is a huge problem overhanging a lot of | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
industries... Do you agree with him? It may not work. I don't know how | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
they will ring fence or isolate this as a single issue problem. If they | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
are doing that and they have found a way I am happy to listen, but I'm | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
not sure that is what is happening. If the government can unilaterally | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
change the terms of a scheme for those who are working and those who | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
have retired in the steel industry, so they have worked all of their | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
lives, they are nearly 80, they have their pensions, then what would | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
there be to stop the government from doing it to other industries? That | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
is the bit I want to be certain about... When you operate pensions | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
you operate for future pensions and existing pensions. The existing ones | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
are vulnerable. They are the ones that have no ability to change their | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
circumstances because they are fixed, the income is fixed, so if it | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
falls to magically, something happens to it, their lifelines | :04:52. | :05:00. | |
cannot be replaced. I came here this morning to hear that this is a | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
proposal. I haven't seen the proposition. Would you say that | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
would be dangerous? I would be concerned until I am satisfied that | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
what they are proposing to do is singular and isn't extendable | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
across-the-board, the more people who line-up to do it. In other | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
words, if this is a short-term measure to get stability in that | :05:22. | :05:23. | |
particular industry then it may be worth looking at. What can it be | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
that is short-term and singular that then could not be cited as an | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
example that other industries could do? I can see the dilemma for the | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
government in terms of wanting to find a buyer. With changing -- would | :05:40. | :05:49. | |
it completely change things? I don't know. People are in bits saying this | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
cannot happen until this happens. You have to find out the real bottom | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
line. Is this a reality, or is it possible to do it without changing | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
anything? I don't know because I'm not close enough to it. The pensions | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
system, the deficits and the issues, it is all a complex thing so we have | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
to tread carefully. Short-term measures can often have long-term | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
consequences. These things, invariably, have to be sorted out. I | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
recognise the need for speed. Do you think the government is desperate | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
about it? I think so, because they want to protect the industry, there | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
are lots of jobs to think about, and livelihoods at stake. It is about | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
getting the balance right. I am open to persuasion on this one. But I | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
would like to know what kind of protections are in place, like | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
Steve. We will bring you the latest on what Sajid Javid has said when we | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
get it. The question for today is how | :06:45. | :06:45. | |
did our guest Iain Duncan Smith Was it a) invented by | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
Clive Woodward during his school b) given to him by fellow students | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
at Merchant Navy college in Wales, c) dreamt up by his | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
old army colleagues, or d) thought up by Conservative | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
press officer Mike Penning to help At the end of the show IDS will give | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
us the correct answer. Will he? | :07:06. | :07:20. | |
I hope so. I thought it was something else. This is the worst | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
quiz I've ever seen, those are his initials. I thought it was the sun | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
newspaper. Immigration, let's talk about immigration. | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
Immigration moves front and centre of the EU | :07:34. | :07:34. | |
referendum campaign today, with the Office of National | :07:35. | :07:36. | |
Statistics releasing the last tranche of migration data | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
And the figures show that, in 2015, net inward migration reached | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
Immigration moves front and centre of the EU | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
referendum campaign today, with the Office of National | :07:49. | :07:50. | |
Statistics releasing the last tranche of migration data | :07:51. | :07:52. | |
The numbers show a marked increase in the number of migrants coming | :07:53. | :08:01. | |
With net migration at 333,000 in the year to December 20 15. That is up | :08:02. | :08:12. | |
by 20,000 from the previous year. And of particular note will be | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
the number of migrants from the EU. Net numbers now stand at 184,000, up | :08:15. | :08:27. | |
by 10,000 from the previous year. The figures also show a record | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
number of people emigrating for work, a record 8000, with 58% having | :08:32. | :08:41. | |
a definite job to go to. The ONS has provided more details on the number | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
of National Insurance numbers issued to EU nationals. 630,000 in the year | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
to March. And the ONS also released new projections of England's | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
population which shows the country set for a surge of more than 4 | :08:57. | :08:58. | |
million by 2024. Immigration is set to account | :08:59. | :09:00. | |
for almost half that growth, which will see London | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
pass the 10 million mark for the first time | :09:04. | :09:14. | |
between 2017 and 2018. The projections, which do not | :09:15. | :09:16. | |
include Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, | :09:17. | :09:18. | |
suggest some inner cities However some areas in northern | :09:19. | :09:19. | |
England are expected to see their populations fall, | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
with the largest expected to be in Barrow-in-Furness in Cumbria, | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
which could drop by 4.3%. This morning, Immigration Minister | :09:27. | :09:28. | |
James Brokenshire had this to say: I'm not going to pretend that these | :09:29. | :09:30. | |
figures today aren't disappointing. It underlines the challenge | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
that we continue to face, but we remain committed to reducing | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
net migration to the long-term What isn't the answer, | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
as some may suggest today, That would wreck the economy, | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
threaten jobs, virtually be equivalent to throwing the baby out | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
with the bath water. We need to continue the reforms | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
to reduce net migration from outside of Europe, which still maintains | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
the majority, but also to follow through on the Prime Minister's | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
renegotiation to deal with those factors that act | :09:58. | :09:59. | |
as a draw to the UK, such as benefits, and seeing | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
that work always pays. We're joined now by former | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
Labour Home Secretary Jacqui Smith. Welcome to the programme. For how | :10:07. | :10:19. | |
long can we continue to bring in a net rise of 330,000 migrants? It | :10:20. | :10:28. | |
depends on the extent to which we believe those people are | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
contributing to our net economy. I think they almost certainly are at | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
the moment. But quite often it is those macroeconomic figures which | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
are important, but how they feel about their work, how they feel | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
about the welfare system... Sure, but are you saying there is no | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
problem as long as they are contributing? I'm not saying there | :10:51. | :10:58. | |
is no problem. For how long can we do it? I understand people are | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
concerned about the levels. My opinion on the debate is that I | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
don't believe that promising a person A. Respect is that leaving | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
the EU will give us a chance to control migration in a way we | :11:16. | :11:17. | |
haven't been able to before is the answer. -- a person thinking about | :11:18. | :11:30. | |
leaving the EU. What is important is that we are able to ensure people | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
have jobs, that they feel confident about public services... It is also | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
quite important for our viewers that you answer the question. Is it too | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
big, or is it not too big that we have a net migration of almost | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
300,000 per year? As long as we can provide the public services for | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
people. Quite often migrants are contributing to those services. If | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
we can ensure people have decent work, if we can have a welfare | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
system that is fair to everybody, into which people contribute, that, | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
rather more than a crude number, or a crude cap which this government | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
has consistently failed to meet, other more important issues. So it | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
is not an issue? What we have seen in the failure to meet the cat... I | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
am asking for your view, we will get the government in a moment. There | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
are people in this country who feel that... Who feel concerned about | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
their work, who feel concerned about whether or not there are too many | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
people here. What I am clear about is if we are to respond to these | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
concerns, we are much better doing it alongside our European partners | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
in a way that will enable us to have sensible controls in place. Also, | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
immigration is an issue brought about by massive international | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
changes, economic and geopolitical forces. We are much more likely to | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
be able to respond to those if we are in a strong relationship with | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
our European Union colleagues. If we left the European Union, this idea | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
that we would be able to propose controls over immigration, is a | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
false thing. I didn't ask you about Europe, but you brought it up. Being | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
outside the European Union, it doesn't necessarily give us better | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
control of the numbers coming here. I don't see how that could possibly | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
be the case. If you have a border with 500 million people open, in | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
other words people coming in self select, you cannot stop people. Even | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
if they have a criminal record you cannot say no unless they pose an | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
immediate threat. So people come here, what ever four, jobs, | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
whatever, they come here self select. The Bank of England made it | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
clear that the migration from the European Union is by and large | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
looking for low skill low wage jobs. That puts pressure on people in the | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
UK looking for those jobs already. I think there is an extra 1.4 million | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
people who have come in on short term, up to 52 weeks, and they put a | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
huge downward pressure on salaries and wages. The economy is growing, | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
British unemployment is very low by international standards now. The | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
economy, relatively successful convert to the rest of Europe, would | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
seem to need this extra labour to continue to succeed. I don't agree | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
with that. There is always a requirement for certain skills. If | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
you have a controlled set of borders than what you do is look for the | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
skills that are necessary. The biggest problem the UK economy faces | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
a certain skills like engineering, software engineering, all of those | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
areas, you would like to be able to say people who do that can come | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
because it would improve the productivity of the economy. What we | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
don't need is large numbers of self select people, competing for low | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
income jobs, because there are still plenty of people in Britain capable | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
of doing those jobs and they simply get priced out of the market. That | :15:07. | :15:08. | |
is a fact of life. We're all worried about people whose | :15:09. | :15:16. | |
pay and jobs are being undermined. You will Work and Pensions Secretary | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
and, frankly, if you'd been that worried, you could've improved | :15:21. | :15:22. | |
enforcement of minimum wage legislation. That is a total red | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
herring. There is no way that workers in this country are going to | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
be better off from leaving the EU, with the risk that that poses to | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
their jobs, to the prices of the goods that they buy. And | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
incidentally, if we're talking about whether or not our borders are | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
secure, how can it be a better way to control immigration to | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
effectively, as we would have to if we left the EU, repatriate our | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
border to the UK, rather than being able to carry out the border checks | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
that we are able to carry out in France? Let me come back to this | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
issue of the minimum wage. What do you say to Jacqui Smith's argument | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
that if the minimum wage was properly implemented and enforced, | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
that would reduce the numbers coming? It simply wouldn't reduce | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
the numbers by any noticeable degree. There has been a huge | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
increase enforcement in the last six years, and about the Coalition | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
Government and the current government, and you can go on doing | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
that and of course you should but this is to miss the whole point. You | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
have an open border with the European Union and the vast majority | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
of people coming in from the EU are not coming in to do illegal levels | :16:34. | :16:41. | |
of work. They're coming in mostly to do legal jobs. I am in east London | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
MP. When Neil Nick Park was being built and I travelled around, I used | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
to meet in the job centre is plenty of people who were plumbers and | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
electricians and they couldn't get work on the Olympic Park because | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
they were undercut by people coming in, hot bedding in bedsits, staying | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
for about seven or eight or nine months. They were undercut because | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
they didn't have those family cost that they had and they could take | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
lower salaries and then they would go back to where they came from and | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
come back a few months later. That is the problem. In that case, why is | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
it that there are senior people in the Leave campaign making proposals | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
such as, we should maintain free movement of people in western | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
Europe? How would it be possible to in the Schengen system? There are | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
people making promises... I have no idea who you are talking about. | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
Senior people in the Leave campaign have suggested that you might want | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
to have free movement within Western Europe. Who suggested that? I don't | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
know precisely. That is not the position of the Leave campaign at | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
all. There have also been people who have suggested that there might be | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
the possibility of opening up more widely to people coming from | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
Commonwealth countries. All of those things have been positive... Hang | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
on. The debate is, do you control the level of migration and the | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
quality of that migration? Here, I'm saying to you, if there are software | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
engineers in India who want to come to jobs that need software | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
engineers, then the Government looks at the balance of that and says, | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
"We'll take them". That is or it possible with the integration system | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
at the moment. The second highest net migration figure since records | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
began at the moment and the reality is, it is self selective. We have a | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
vast number of people coming in from the EU, mostly doing low-paid jobs, | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
which means you have to tighten right up on the skilled areas of | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
work which you may want coming from young software engineers who would | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
actually add productivity. So it is the case that you would want to | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
increase immigration from outside the EU? I want to have controlled | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
immigration. An elected government that has a proposal from migration | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
system to limit to tens of thousands has to control its borders. If they | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
do that and are elected on that, the public that the next general | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
election will say, "You did or didn't achieve that, I want you out | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
or I want you to stay". You need to answer a few questions about how you | :19:07. | :19:08. | |
would implement your immigration policy. Questions like... I'm asking | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
the questions. I'd like to ask you a question. You say we all want | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
controlled immigration, so if we stay in the EU, how would you | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
control it? Firstly, I actually think some of the reforms that David | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
Cameron has the go she hated around the welfare system are right. I | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
think it's right if people come to this country that they should make a | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
contribution before they receive welfare benefits. All the research | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
suggests that will make almost no difference at all, in particular | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
when you add in the rise in the minimum wage That's part of the | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
reason why I think they're significant macroeconomic benefits | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
from migration into this country but what there also are our considerable | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
concerns amongst individuals about their pay levels. You said, we all | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
want to control immigration. I assume you include yourself so I'm | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
asking you, if we remain in the EU, how would you control immigration | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
from the EU? I think our immigration is better controlled by having | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
border controls in France, which, of course, was negotiated by David | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
Blunkett, because of our close relationship with our European | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
colleagues. It was everything to do with the EU. It's a bilateral | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
arrangement. The Home Office minister in France said, "We would | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
keep that even if Britain left, because it suits our purposes". | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
Having worked closely on the Justice and home affairs council, and is | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
David Blunkett has said, I really do not believe we would have got that | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
agreement had we not be working alongside our European colleagues. | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
You accepted a bilateral treaty, not an EU treaty? I believe it has come | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
about because... Legally, it is not an EU treaty, correct? It is | :21:00. | :21:08. | |
bilateral. Iain Duncan Smith... No, no, I'm going to ask Iain Duncan | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
Smith question now. You've been part of the government, until recently, | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
that for six years has promised to get net migration below 100,000 and, | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
this, you've spectacularly fails to do that and part of the blame you | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
give is because you can't control numbers coming from the EU. But you | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
can control numbers coming from outside the EU and even when you | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
take none you, net migration in the last year was almost 150,000. So | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
even if you stopped everybody coming from the EU, you would still be 50% | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
above your target. Why? Because we need to take more action to reduce | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
net migration. If you have a plan to cut migration by tens of thousands, | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
we are missing that. If you look at Australia and other countries, they | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
have points systems, where they say certain skills come in and the rest | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
don't. That is what you have to do. You said that if we took in fewer | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
from the EU, you would have control. We are probably taking more with the | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
right skills from outside the EU. I said your overall migration policy | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
is then set for what the skills that you need in the UK to improve that | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
but the net number that come in versus those who believe would | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
actually fall. That is the purpose. You set yourself a target and you | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
achieve that target. Would it be 100,000? The policy that we set | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
ourselves, I am a believer in. If you have a manifesto pledge, you | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
stick to it. You never this economy, at its current growth rate and job | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
generation, which is more than the rest of the eurozone put together, | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
could not survive if we only had immigration at 100,000. Our policy | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
at the last election is to have... I know that your policy, it doesn't | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
make it right. The British people voted for that. Shouldn't you just | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
drop the promise? I believe if you got a promise, you stick to it. We | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
have to leave it there. Sorry. We've had an affair out in on that. Jacqui | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
Smith, thank you for being with us. But we're not leaving the debate. | :23:17. | :23:26. | |
Tonight sees the first referendum TV debate - | :23:27. | :23:28. | |
it's in Glasgow and is being hosted by Victoria Derbyshire | :23:29. | :23:30. | |
in front of a live audience of 18 to 29 year-olds. | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
Our reporter Christian Fraser is at the venue in Glasgow. | :23:34. | :23:35. | |
That's right. We're on the banks of the Clyde. The crew are stored | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
tightening up all the bolts and making the final preparations and | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
another spotlight, former First Minister Alex Salmond, who is very | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
much in the Remain camp. Alongside him, Alan Johnson's labour, Liam | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
Fox, the former Defence Secretary, from Conservatives. He is backing | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
the Leave campaign and next to him will be Diane Jones, one of the four | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
Ukip MEPs but it is the audience that is the most fascinating. We | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
don't often hear the views and thoughts of a young audience and you | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
will see the title behind the stage, "How should I go?" That is because | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
they're still, unbelievably, a lot of undecided voters in the 18 | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
29-year-old age-group and it is crucial, particularly to the Remain | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
camp, that they get that vote out because polls tell us about 50% of | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
young people will vote but more people vote the older they get, so | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
these young people could be crucial to the Remain camp. Interesting | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
views, we are likely to get. I don't think they will be focusing, as you | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
are, on migration or procurement law in Europe. They want to know about | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
jobs, universities, how Brexit might affect their opportunities within | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
Europe, where they may go to find work later in their lives. Since | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
we're in Scotland, let's broadly talk about the polls here. They seem | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
to be leaving quite firmly towards remain. Nobody here is going to take | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
anything for granted because we've had the independence vote, a general | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
election, the important elections at the beginning of May, so nobody can | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
really guess what turnout might be. Will it be as high as we expect it | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
to be or are people just tired of going to the ballot box? | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
Thanks for that. We look forward to it. | :25:14. | :25:14. | |
Well, one of the key issues in the referendum debate | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
Those on the Leave side suggest we can easily negotiate a free trade | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
agreement with the EU and be free to negotiate with other | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
emerging economies in the Far East and Latin America. | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
Those arguing to remain, however, suggest that being in the EU gives | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
us preferential access to a market of 500 million people. | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
One of those is Miriam Gonzalez Durantez - | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
She is, of course, the wife of former | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
But she is also a lawyer who specialises in free | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
Welcome to the programme. Iain Duncan Smith, first of all, in terms | :25:44. | :25:54. | |
of trade with countries like the US and China, what would be so | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
dramatically different if we left the EU? First of all, you would | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
carry on trading with them. We have a trade balance which is pretty much | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
in balance with the United States. We want to get on and try and make | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
trade deals with countries which have free trade deals, like | :26:16. | :26:17. | |
Australia made with the United States, which took about two years | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
to sort out, and the same goes with countries we've had historic ties | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
with like India and Japan, so what we would want to do is get on and | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
start that process. We do trade with countries like the US and China. So | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
the EU doesn't stop the UK doing that. Nobody ever said it stops it. | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
Just to clarify. The point is we want to make that trade even easier | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
and it is taking forever for the EU to get what I think is a bad trade | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
deal in TTIP with the United States, which I am not in favour of. How | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
much quicker do think it would be and how much would it increase by? | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
I'm not sure how much it would increase by but I think it would | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
increase trade to top the reality is that you will increase your trade if | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
those barriers, whatever barriers they are, come down. How high are | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
they at the moment? They average about 1.5 percentage top I think one | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
presented the average. In some areas it is five percentage top the | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
question you are asking is almost an irrelevance. It is not a relevant. | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
It is not relevant to find out how much more trade we would have if we | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
left the EU. It is a very relevant question. -- it is not irrelevant. | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
Some people have said would be a golden age of trade and I want to | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
know how much more. It depends on how you get your free trade deal but | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
the fact of life in all free trade deals that exist between countries | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
show significant increases in their trade. Australia was one. There is | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
no overarching court. They have no barriers on either side. What would | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
be the problem? We would be free to make trade agreements, individual | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
trade agreements, and it actually would improve with these other | :28:05. | :28:06. | |
countries, some of whom we can't trade with the tall at the moment | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
individually. You are making, if I may, both of you are making a series | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
of assumptions that are little bit wishful thinking. The UK visitor can | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
continue trading but it will continue trading under very | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
different terms. The EU and the UK within the EU is currently protected | :28:24. | :28:31. | |
by a wide network of agreements that have been concluded or are in | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
negotiations and they offer preferential treatment to British | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
companies, wherever they are going. That would go. It can be | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
renegotiated but that would go. So that's thinking of, we are going to | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
be able to trade more, if you want better terms than we have right now, | :28:49. | :28:55. | |
it it is an incredibly complex situation. Renegotiation... There is | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
one of the agreements here so you can see what it is. This is one of | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
the simple agreements. There are many more which are much more | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
complicated. You would need to renegotiate 30 to 50 of these. Let | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
me say, by the way, that I have been a trade negotiator in my past life | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
and in bilateral negotiations. They are not really British trade because | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
shooters here in the government. How long does it take to negotiate | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
something like that? Things are getting more and more complicated | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
right now, partly because of fears that the UK exports mostly services | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
and for services, you need to negotiate later for financial | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
services. Five years, beginning to end, is a reasonable time. Five | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
years for every single trade agreement? Would you be perpetual | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
that? I have been an industry and I have negotiated contract and trade | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
deals with countries abroad so I have to tell you something very | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
simple. The reason why you have this stack of papers is because in the | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
EU, all these different nations require, in the course of those | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
negotiations, incredible limitations on what happens. For example, the | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
TTIP negotiation, one of the areas they Rowling about, is whether | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
America can call their feta cheese feta cheese or whether the rights | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
have the -- whether the Greeks have the right to call it feta cheese. | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
You have a simpler process if it is dealing with one country. The second | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
thing is, any external trade deals that the EU has made, legally, it is | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
up to the country they made the deal with to decide whether it supplies | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
that trade deal to the UK or not. If that country says, "I am content | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
that we will continue to trade on this terms with the UK," then that | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
trade deal stands. That is legally the case. | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
I have negotiated with you, for example, you are offering me 500 | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
million customers, and now I am offering to you 67 million | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
customers. This is in breach of contract. It is up to them... Of | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
course it is up to them... I let you speak earlier... It is up to them to | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
decide if they are going to apply them or not. I wouldn't be | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
surprised. They would be mad not to open it. Isn't it the will of the | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
other countries, and the fact we don't know? Put those two words | :31:30. | :31:39. | |
aside, then you get down to the concrete point, these nations want | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
to deal with us as we want to deal with them. But they will want a | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
preferential deal... The first and in point is you would already have a | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
trade deal. When you speak to these countries you say you are content, | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
if that is what we want to do as a government, to stay with the deal as | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
we have it now. Are you content? If they say yes, finds asked to carry, | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
then we do. -- the first concrete point is. We don't have a trade deal | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
with the US after 30 years. It doesn't have a decent trade deal | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
with India, one of our biggest and oldest friends. -- it doesn't have a | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
trade deal with the US after 30 years. We would have to do a deal | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
with them individually. It is about control. Leave are saying the UK | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
would control those the gauche orations. They would choose who they | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
would like to negotiate with and their terms would also be done on a | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
preferential basis. That would be the advantage of the out of the year | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
as a block. I know that this seems to be the whole Brexit debate, | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
control of everything. It is, isn't it? It is difficult to control it | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
completely. It doesn't work like that. This is about a trade between | :32:55. | :33:03. | |
your control for every bit, and what you get with 500 million customers | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
that you have when you negotiate. It is out of the question that the UK | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
would be able to get the same terms. If it is offering 67 million | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
customers, if it is offering 5 million customers. Would it be | :33:16. | :33:23. | |
impossible? Very difficult. I won't ask you to do the negotiations. We | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
have that clear. LAUGHTER | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
When I was in business, you argue for those things. The point is, this | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
idea that all of this stuff means you cannot do it... Sleep, years ago | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
we would not have wanted to do it, it is just too difficult. -- | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
honestly, years ago. We have got to get our own agreements for Britain, | :33:49. | :33:57. | |
and that must be better. Bilateral agreements are my bread-and-butter. | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
There are no negotiations in the government who have free trade | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
deals. Important negotiate is... With respect, they are bad at it. 30 | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
years are discussing a trade deal with the US and they still don't | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
have it... How about Joe Hart? I don't think that is pretty good. -- | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
Doha. You could join other countries, | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
Iceland, Norway, literature and Steyn, you would have access to | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
their trade deals, as well -- Liechtenstein. It could be lots of | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
different other models like that one. I don't accept the whole | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
internal market, or not, because that includes freedom of movement? | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
And the different thing is an agreement with third parties. That | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
issue is still on the table. We have to leave it. Thank you. If you do | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
ever end up working for him, do tell us. | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
Lots of trees died in that, I hope it was worth it. We have offered | :35:08. | :35:18. | |
politicians from all parties to take the soapboxes. | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
So to start off the series, here's Conservative MP - | :35:23. | :35:24. | |
and former policing minister - Nick Herbert on why you should | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
The Conservatives took Britain into the single market | :35:28. | :35:44. | |
That's given us the best of both worlds, and being outside Europe's | :35:45. | :35:53. | |
passport-free area means we control our borders. | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
Thanks to the Prime Minister's new deal, Britain is exempt | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
from ever-closer union, so we'll never be part | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
I'm proud of our record of rebuilding our economy, | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
creating 2.4 million jobs and restoring stability. | :36:04. | :36:13. | |
But we mustn't put our economic security at risk | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
by turning our backs on our largest trading partner. | :36:16. | :36:17. | |
A vote to leave is a vote for risk and uncertainty, | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
affecting jobs, prices and mortgage payments for families. | :36:21. | :36:22. | |
Independent experts warn that Britain could take a serious | :36:23. | :36:24. | |
economic hit by leaving, meaning less funding for public | :36:25. | :36:26. | |
The cost would be equivalent to ?4,300 for every | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
Families can't afford to pay this price. | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
That's why Britain is stronger, safer and better off in the EU. | :36:36. | :36:56. | |
So that was Nick Herbert making the Conservative 'remain' case. | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
But as you might have noticed, not everyone in the Conservative | :37:00. | :37:01. | |
party agrees - Nusrat Ghani MP explains why she'll be voting | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
On June 23rd, Britain has a chance to vote for a bold, positive future, | :37:05. | :37:26. | |
as an independent country in control of its own destiny. | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
I am proud that our nation stands tall in the world. | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
We have the world's fifth biggest economy and the fourth | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
We have a chance to liberate our economy from a declining corner | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
of the world and spread our wings to the whole globe. | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
Today, business regulation is dictated by the EU's unelected | :37:49. | :37:50. | |
Their red tape costs our economy billions every year and it's small | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
If we take back control of our democracy, we can set | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
sensible rules to suit Britain, not Brussels. | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
We can then do our own trade deals, worldwide, to bring | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
We can take back control of our borders and decide | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
on the skills and expertise needed to help our country flourish. | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
We get a lousy deal for our membership fee of ?350 million | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
Let's get it back and spend it on our priorities. | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
Let's get back control of our country. | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
Nusrat Ghani making the Conservative case for Leave. | :38:33. | :38:47. | |
Both those films are available on our twitter feed. | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
And we've done films with all the main parties | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
which we will be playing in the run-up to the referendum. | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
We asked Nick Herbert if he would come in and debate his | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
arguments with Iain Duncan Smith, but Mr Herbert wants to avoid | :39:01. | :39:02. | |
But we do have former Conservative MP Laura Sandys who is campaigning | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
I am glad you are not frightened to come on. Welcomer long. David | :39:10. | :39:22. | |
Cameron's former blue skies thinker worked with him at number ten claims | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
the PM is a closet Brexiteer. He would have liked to have left. Do | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
you believe him? I don't. I think the longer the Prime Minister has | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
been in his post he has actually seen really the true opportunities | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
Europe offers us from a power point of view. If you talk to ministers | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
they see the letter which we have, and don't believe we are a victim of | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
Europe, and that we are actually a true and leading partner. If you | :39:53. | :40:02. | |
read the whole quote from Steve Hilton, actually, as Prime Minister, | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
David Cameron has changed his view, that you can be an ideological | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
backbencher, like yourself, then it is easy to be a League campaign. But | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
when you are in power you are looking at the interests of the | :40:15. | :40:24. | |
whole country. -- Leave. I decided a while ago. As power kept slipping I | :40:25. | :40:32. | |
changed my mind. I said we would end up with a final decision which is, | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
can you stay or can you leave because you will see more powers go. | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
More and more the treaties convinced me this was the case. Coming back to | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
the PM, we don't have an idea, I don't have a window into his soul. | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
Buddy you see what still Hilton is saying, can you believe that | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
becoming Prime Minister changes your perspective? -- but can you see. | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
Being in government changed my perspective. If I was edging towards | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
Lees, being in government, dealing with the people in Brussels, it | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
would make me want to leave as fast as possible. -- Leave. The amount of | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
times we were in fact it because we disagreed over social policy, and | :41:14. | :41:15. | |
they are trying to take control of social policy, I thought if anything | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
tells you you want to get out it would make me want to go the other | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
way dealing with them. The majority of Cabinet ministers want to stay | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
in. They had a different experience. You say that but a lot of Cabinet | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
ministers have tempered their opinions because of collective | :41:34. | :41:35. | |
responsibility, even though they were allowed to choose as they | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
wanted. We are moving into the last stage of this. We need to look at | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
the vision of the country. Churchill had his concentric circles where the | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
UK was positioned on the continent of Europe with an extraordinary | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
relationship with the US, and also with our links to the Commonwealth. | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
When the last conversation about trade happened, we offered the | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
Commonwealth preferential treatment into the EU market and that's why | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
the Commonwealth want us to stay in because we are their platform. We | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
have got this extraordinary position. To lose one of the legs of | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
the three legged stool seems crazy at this particular moment. You said | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
we are coming to the closing weeks of this debate. The vitriol has been | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
quite amazing in terms of levels of abuse that have been chucked by both | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
sides at both sides. You called the Chancellor Pinocchio. Boris Johnson | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
called... Have you forgotten? The PM said Penny Morden was absolutely | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
wrong about Turkey. Are you surprised at the level of vitriol? | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
It is politics. Within one party? You cannot have a debate without | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
passions rising. It is the most important vote people will make as | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
to the destiny of your country. You will have bits and pieces. The key | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
thing is getting down to the reality and the facts about what are you | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
voting about. My view is that the Remain site have talked about the | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
economy, marketplace... I don't know of any other place in the world that | :43:09. | :43:18. | |
has a marketplace decided upon by so many bureaucrats. I have a second | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
point. If you talk to people in Europe this is not about the | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
marketplace. This is about their overarching dream to have this | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
federal state called Europe. Can we let Laura respond. I don't | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
understand about this Europe holding us back. Belgium sold more to India | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
than the UK. Germany sells to countries our Foreign Office can | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
hardly even spell. When you start to look at this it is about this | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
country but it is also about the things we need to do within this | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
country. We need up skill, not worry about migrants coming in and taking | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
low skilled jobs, we should be making sure our domestic citizens | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
have much better skills. We should be looking at trade and making sure | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
we are trading around the world. But the EU is not holding us back. What | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
it is is it is one of the platforms of which I am not embarrassed to be | :44:10. | :44:17. | |
a member of. Let me ask Iain Duncan Smith about the fact there are | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
reports of 50 different people willing to sign up to a | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
no-confidence vote in David Cameron. Are you one of them, do you know | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
about it? This is not the Prime Minister, this is about whether we | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
stay in the EU or not. We have another for Magri years to govern. | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
You have a vote, if the vote to leave, which I hope it will be, then | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
the government has to operate on the basis that we have to now leave. -- | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
if the vote is to leave. So you know nothing about this. I don't. What | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
would you say to your colleagues on the list? Not bothered. The | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
government will have to operate on the basis of the result. If the | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
British people say leave them the PM has to get on and get us out. But | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
this is the risk of having a divided party. It is a risk, isn't it? If | :45:10. | :45:11. | |
there are names ready to sign up. 70% of Conservative MPs are not that | :45:12. | :45:21. | |
interested in the E word. What they're looking for on the 24th is a | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
strong agenda talking about social inclusion, talking about the | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
domestic issues. We're all forced to have a view about Europe as some | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
sort of polemic state and actually, ultimately, I think that we have a | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
very strong agenda without the E word mentioned whatever, following | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
on from this referendum. We've all got to kiss and make up. You should | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
vote to leave a menu will never have to mention the E word again. -- and | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
then you will never have to. Why does Belgium export more to India? I | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
don't know why it does. Because Antwerp is the diamond capital of | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
the world and 70% Belgium's exports to India are diamonds. It doesn't | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
actually create a lot of jobs manufacturing industry. But the | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
point is that the EU is not holding them back. It is a false figure | :46:14. | :46:20. | |
because it is diamonds. It's like many of the propaganda figures we | :46:21. | :46:22. | |
get from both sides of this debate. A new report conducted | :46:23. | :46:24. | |
by Salford City Council claims that benefits sanctions are plunging | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
the poor and desperate The city's new mayor, | :46:28. | :46:29. | |
Labour's Paul Dennett, says some local people | :46:30. | :46:31. | |
are struggling to afford food, heating and essential costs, | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
and the problem is particularly Mr Dennett joins us | :46:35. | :46:36. | |
now from Salford. Welcome to the programme. What are | :46:37. | :46:48. | |
the main findings? What are your main concerns as a result of this | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
report and what you've found in Salford? Our main findings are that | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
the vulnerable people in the city especially being impacted by | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
conditionality and benefit sanctions, so people with mental | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
health issues, people with learning difficulties, lone parents, young | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
people and disabled people are especially being impacted by benefit | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
sanctions and conditionality regimes from the DWP. And have the reforms | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
that this government introduced, both the Coalition, and is | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
continuing to do so, as that made things worse? In my opinion, it | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
absolutely has made things worse. We've created an industry almost | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
around unemployment, where people are struggling to make ends meet but | :47:30. | :47:31. | |
also struggling with the labour market. The jobs these people are | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
acquiring are part-time, low paid jobs to top they're in and out of | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
work and the DWP aren't really interested in trying to understand | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
what's going on in the labour market in terms of that labour market churn | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
and the consequences of that for people's lies within our city. Ian | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
Duncan Smith, you were responsible for many of these changes. What do | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
you say to Paul Dummett? It is not the picture I see across the country | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
and what you will find is that universal credit is rolled out to be | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
employed. The point about universal credit you don't just go into a | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
low-paid job and then leave the job centre. You now stay with the job | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
adviser who knocks you find better income and gets you want a higher | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
salary, longer hours and a more permanent job. That is what is | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
happening. As regards the disability benefit side of things, the reality | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
is that if you were on disability benefits, you are not sanctioned. In | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
actual fact, you can work but you are not forced to work. That is part | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
of the deal. Those benefits have all risen and we've put extra money | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
down, over ?350 million went out to local councils to help sort their | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
problems out over housing and getting families to move and change. | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
There has been a huge amount of assistance to local authorities to | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
get the focus down to them, to help them get those jobs and get those | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
people back to work and that is what has been going on. What do you say? | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
In my opinion, there hasn't been huge amount of assistance to local | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
authorities. What we're actually seeing is people falling through | :49:01. | :49:02. | |
welfare safety net, so people basically falling out of the benefit | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
system together, relying on friends and family to make ends meet. They | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
are potentially existing in the informal economy. There is a | :49:13. | :49:14. | |
fundamental problem here with the Government's statistics. We don't | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
manufacture the statistics. The ONS but the statistics together and they | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
are done independently. What we've seen is that poverty levels have | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
fallen and we've seen the levels of people's income rise as they get | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
back into work. That is not perfect, there is more to do. But in Salford | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
there has been a huge rise in referrals to the Salford central | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
food bank. 62% made by people who had had their benefits stopped. The | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
whole point about this, and this is what we said at the time, there is a | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
contract and they sign that contract on arrival at the job centre. Most | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
people recognise that if you are in receipt of benefits, you are | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
required and expected, at that time, to be looking for work and you are | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
meant to do everything you can to find work and take those jobs that | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
are available. People are not sanctioned simply because the job | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
centre dislikes them, they are sanctioned only after a series of | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
warnings and checks that say, if you don't change what you are doing and | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
don't get on and do the job you are meant to be doing, which is finding | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
work, then you will be sanctioned. Most of the public accept, in all | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
the polling, that this is a contract. We want you to find work, | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
we will support you with money, but you are supposed to seek work. But | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
according to the DWP, more than half of the claimants sanctioned between | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
April 20 14th and March 2015 had mental health problems, either | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
caused or worsened by sanctions. The department has always said that as | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
soon as anybody is able to demonstrate that they have a | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
sickness or illness or a mental health problem, they are immediately | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
taken across to the employment support allowance and they get an | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
application to get onto that, where they will not be sanctioned and will | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
be in the support group. The vast majority of those do. And not saying | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
the system is perfect and people aren't going to fall through it but | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
the system is meant to pick people up and get them through and local | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
authorities, working closely with the DWP, are actually doing that. | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
The number of sanctions has fallen over the last two years. Are | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
sanctions falling in numbers in your area? According to the Government, | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
the sanctions are falling, so the official statistics suggest that, | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
but the reality is, they are falling out of the system so we are not | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
capturing the data. I don't know what Iain Duncan Smith is talking | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
about because we've got young people with dyslexia unable to complete | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
diaries sanctioned. 31-year-old in the city with severe mental health | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
issues sanctioned. 60-year-old lady on TSA failed her work capability | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
assessment, taken at a benefits and reliant upon our system. This is on | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
top of local governor cuts. 171 million has been taken out of our | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
budget in 2010, 46% of our budget taken away from us. This is what the | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
government would consider as non-statutory so we get no penny | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
whatsoever through the revenue support grant to deliver these | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
services in our city so we have to work with partners in our city to | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
try and tackle what is a really Draconian and punitive system here. | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
The examples Paul Dummett gives, it would seem to me, are quite | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
concerning. Any example of something that is not working is always a | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
concern but the point I'm saying is, you can always, in every system, | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
find injury jewel cases where things are wrong and if those are raised, | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
they have to be dealt with individually. When the government | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
came in, the levels of unemployment was staggeringly high in places like | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
Salford and getting people back to work is the single first thing you | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
have to do to get them to be able to control their lives and get the | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
right level of income. The budget for welfare when we walked in the | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
door had risen by 60% on the period before and unemployment was high and | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
child poverty had risen. These figures have come down. Not | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
everything is absolutely perfect. There will always be individual | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
cases. But the reality is that the system as it is now is more likely | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
to help people get back into work and assist them when they are in | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
work and it was before. And the work capability assessment that he speaks | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
about was introduced by the Labour government at the time because they | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
said this would help. I want to change it and perform it, which is | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
one of the things I wanted to do before I left, but it will be | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
reformed because a doesn't function exactly as it should. Thank you. We | :53:15. | :53:21. | |
have to leave it there. I assume people can read this report online. | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
Yes, absolutely, they can. Thank you for being with us. | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
Now, it seems the end of the world is nigh. Have we got a hole in our | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
roof? It's time to talk | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
terrifying alien invasions Award-winning crime writer | :53:40. | :53:41. | |
Val McDermid has written a Radio 4 adaption of John Wyndham's classic | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
1953 sci-fi novel Dangerous It stars Tamsin Greig, Paul Higgins | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
and a rather special guest. Every day, I check whether there's | :53:49. | :53:59. | |
anything on the radio. This is the Scottish | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
Broadcasting Commission. And now, a message | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
from the First Minister. We are proud today that we have | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
restored radio broadcasting Standing here on the Castle | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
Esplanade, I want to say that your government has not lost | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
sight of the need to fight back against those | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
who would destroy us. That was First Minister Nicola | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
Sturgeon starring as herself, and with us now to tell us | :54:33. | :54:47. | |
about the play is its writer, Val McDermid, live | :54:48. | :54:50. | |
from our Edinburgh studio. Welcome to the programme. Why did | :54:51. | :54:58. | |
you decide to adopt this novel? I've always been a fan of John Wyndham | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
and have enjoyed his works as I was a teenager. It seemed to me that, | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
unlike a lot of sci-fi, it stands up well to the passage of time because | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
what he concentrated on was character and how people behave | :55:09. | :55:11. | |
under pressure and stress and that doesn't change when circumstances | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
change. So you've been able to adapt it with modern day scary stories or | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
scenarios that could come upon us now? Yes. I think when the book was | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
written, there was a limited understanding of climate science and | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
what would happen in circumstances like this but now we have a much | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
greater understanding of what would happen if the icecaps melted, if the | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
sea waters rise, and that allowed me to write, I suppose, a more | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
apocalyptic vision. Yes, I'm sure it is apocalyptic. As we've just played | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
for the audience, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon playing herself. How | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
did that come about? In the initial book, the protagonist escaped to | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
Cornwall but an expert I spoke to said that Cornwall wouldn't be there | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
any more, most of England wouldn't be there any more, but Scotland | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
would lose its population centres but most of the Highlands would | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
still be there. So it seems to me to be the case that if civil government | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
lasted anywhere, it would probably last in Scotland, so I thought I | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
would ask the First Minister - nothing ventured, nothing gained. | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
What did you do, write her a note and say, "Would you lie to play a | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
part in this adaptation"? I sent her an e-mail which said, "I've written | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
this script - do you fancy doing it?" I centre the script so she | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
could see she was getting into anything controversial and she said | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
yes. She trusted you, clearly. It does sound very dramatic - Cornwall | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
disappearing, maybe parts of Scotland to. When can we hear the | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
first instalment? The first instalment goes out on Radio 4 on | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
Saturday afternoon and then next week the second instalment will go | :56:53. | :56:54. | |
out and that is the instalment that features the First Minister. That | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
was good, promoting a head. Should we be very scared? Very scared, yes. | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
Thanks. Stay with us. Are you going to be listening? For a minute, I | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
actually thought this was going to be one of those government | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
programmes saying, "If you leave the EU, this is going to happen," so I | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
was about to say, "Oh, my goodness, has the Government now said another | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
plague is upon us"? But I'm glad it is fiction. Val McDermid, I have to | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
congratulate you. I hope there isn't anything about the repeat in union | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
in this script anywhere. I don't think there is. We wouldn't have | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
been allowed to broadcast it if it was. We had to postpone broadcast | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
anyway until after the Scottish elections. Compliance said that it | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
gives the impression that Nicola Sturgeon would still be First | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
Minister. So even you have had to be careful with your politics! | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
You got that right! You would have been safe. Thanks | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
very much for joining us and good luck. Thank you. | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
The question was, how did our guest Iain Duncan Smith | :58:06. | :58:07. | |
They are your initials, I take your point, Andrew. | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
Was it a) invented by Clive Woodward during his school | :58:14. | :58:15. | |
b) given to him by fellow students at Merchant Navy college in Wales, | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
c) dreamt up by his old army colleagues, | :58:20. | :58:21. | |
or d) thought up by conservative press officer Mike Penning to help | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
I don't know any of those but I think the press office. It is the | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
initials and it is the press office but it is the fact that Iain Duncan | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
Smith became known as IDS. It was supposed to give you a profile. | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
She doesn't get out much these days! These things excite her! Thanks | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
Barry much to all our guests, even those with the initials IDS. | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
I will be on This Week tonight with Michael Portillo, | :58:49. | :58:50. | |
Jess Phillips, Nick Clegg, Helen Lewis, Brian Blessed | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
and Francis Boulle from Made in Chelsea, and I'll be here at noon | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
tomorrow with all the big political stories of the day - | :58:57. | :58:59. |