Browse content similar to 27/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It has its own parliament, courts and diplomatic corps, | :00:38. | :00:45. | |
but should the EU have its own military? | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
Margaret Thatcher didn't think much of them, | :00:49. | :01:00. | |
and they've been wrong before, could economists be | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
getting it wrong again about the impact of leaving the EU? | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
It's been more than six years in the making and has cost | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
millions of pounds, but will the Chilcot Iraq Inquiry | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
come to the right conclusions about Tony Blair's culpability? | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
And it's the Ed and Jez show, the current and former Labour | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
leaders join forces to make the case for remain. | :01:23. | :01:34. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
Peter Oborne, who writes for the Mail and the Spectator amongst other | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
publications, and Jenni Russell of the Times. | :01:43. | :01:43. | |
First this morning, does the European Union have secret | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
That's the claim on the front page of the Times today. | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
The plans - drawn up by the EU's Foreign Policy Chief - | :01:55. | :02:04. | |
apparently won't be discussed by national governments | :02:05. | :02:05. | |
until after next month's referendum on the 23rd June. | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
We asked to speak to someone from the European Commission | :02:09. | :02:10. | |
How strong do you think the story is? It is a terrific headline but | :02:11. | :02:25. | |
when you read the bit into it, it's about trying to get more strategic | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
operation between nations in the EU, it isn't really about setting up an | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
army. I think the fact that there will be more strategic cooperation | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
can only be a good thing. It means we would be taken by surprise by | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
events like Syria and Libya. Whether there should be an army in the EU, | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
whether there is one, no one is pushing for an army. The Germans | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
have a white paper coming out which they have postponed until July. They | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
are talking about more strategic operation between nations, not a | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
standing army that belongs to the EU which is deployed solely by the EU | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
commission. It's about member states pulling together. Martin Schulz, the | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
president of the European Parliament, if we wish to defend our | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
values the majority of MEPs consider we need an HQ for civil and military | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
operations and trips you can be deployed. John Claude Juncker has | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
said that such an army would help us to build a common foreign and | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
national security policy. It would show Russia we are serious when it | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
comes to defending the European Union. The German defence minister | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
says that the European army is their long-term goal but firstly they have | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
to strengthen the defence union. The European Commission last year said | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
that European defence integration is no longer just a political option | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
but a strategic and economic necessity. That's what they want. | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
They might want one in the future but that's not being proposed now, | :03:55. | :03:56. | |
what they are proposing more coordination. Today we have David | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
Cameron sending another Navy ship to help with the Libyan migrant crisis. | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
There is talk of deploying navies together to help prevent Isis from | :04:10. | :04:11. | |
getting supplies across the Mediterranean. It makes sense and we | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
should coordinate to do that kind of thing rather than sending off ships | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
one of the time. There may be an army of the EU in the future but not | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
imminent. Trashing the story, the Times journalist, on the front page! | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
We are not always responsible for the stories. I wish I could get away | :04:31. | :04:38. | |
with that at the Daily Mail! The day the story appears, trash it on live | :04:39. | :04:46. | |
TV, well done, Jenni. It's a very good story. Is she right to say that | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
the headline is misleading? I didn't say that was misleading, that is | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
misleading. I think what we have got here, a load of things which are | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
going to be announced on June the 24th onwards. The European Union has | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
gone quiet, the Greek debt crisis will go ballistic, we will discover | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
proposals for a European army, all sorts of things are waiting until | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
the British people have voted in blissful ignorance, fuelled only by | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
George Osborne's dodgy dossiers. They will wait until June 24. Of | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
course it's very serious, the Times reporting is very good although you | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
don't seem to think so! It is excellent! We've done that bit, | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
stick to the substance! Would it be a good thing to have a European | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
military? Not if it was under control from the European | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
Commission. What always had to happen, member states who wants to | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
put their forces into a situation have to agree on a case-by-case | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
basis. But it would be under the control of the European Council, not | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
just the unelected commission. That's what I'm saying. Should we | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
look forward to a Europe when the European Council, the heads of the | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
European countries, meet in Brussels and have the power to deploy a | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
European military force? I think that could be a good thing in the | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
way that we have UN peacekeeping forces. We are under threat from | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
Russia which may go to the northern Baltic states. Isn't that Nato? We | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
need a force on the border to show that Europe is serious about it as | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
well, not leaving it to the American forces. That's what Nato does. I | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
will give you a lecture later on the security architecture of Europe. | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
Apologies later! You get muddled up about what the security of Europe | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
is, it is the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. We need to move on! | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
We've only got another three weeks of this! Can you not be patronising, | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
if we have America and the Tramp, we know that America is going to be | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
much less ready to participate in Nato operations and Europeans have | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
to do more for themselves. Let that be the last word. Thank you! | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
Today's question, what did Green Party London Assembly member | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
Sian Berry say would break up if Britain leaves the EU? | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
At the end of the show, Jenni and Peter will give us | :07:19. | :07:33. | |
I think we may have shone very to explain. -- Sian Berry. | :07:34. | :07:47. | |
Now, earlier this week the IFS predicted that the economic impact | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
of leaving the European Union could lead to two more | :07:51. | :07:52. | |
It's the latest downbeat assessment from economists of the prospects | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
But should we take any notice of protaganists of what is sometimes | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
Giles has been looking at their record. | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
So have our clairvoyant economists covered themselves in glory | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
or have their palms been crossed with silver for little in return? | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
In 1981, 364 economists complained about Maggie Thatcher's decision | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
to raise taxes substantially at the height of recession. | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
The oracular economists, including future Bank of England | :08:25. | :08:26. | |
governor Mervyn King, said this so-called "monetarist | :08:27. | :08:28. | |
policy" had "no basis in economic theory". | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
Turned out their crystal ball was wrong, with the economy | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
beginning to grow just days after the letter was published. | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
In 1992, the economic establishment once again coalesced to back staying | :08:44. | :08:45. | |
They agreed with the Treasury line that leaving the ERM would "put | :08:46. | :08:54. | |
at risk the hard-won confidence" in the economy. | :08:55. | :08:56. | |
But on Black Wednesday, Britain was forced out - | :08:57. | :08:58. | |
and the economy was soon picking up once again. | :08:59. | :09:00. | |
They clearly didn't see that in their tarot cards. | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
Many of the same wise men and women were soon calling | :09:05. | :09:06. | |
for Britain to join the euro during the Blair era. | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
15 leading economists wrote to the FT in 2001, | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
prophesising that joining the euro would "safeguard" Britain's | :09:14. | :09:15. | |
They needed Gordon Brown to save their bacon, | :09:16. | :09:25. | |
ruling out entry after it failed his five economic tests. | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
So now we come to the latest prediction, with 198 business | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
leaders and economists writing a letter to the Times in February. | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
They say that "leaving the EU would deter investment, | :09:36. | :09:37. | |
threaten jobs and put the economy at risk". | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
Will they be on the crystal ball this time, | :09:46. | :09:47. | |
or will the mists of time once again fail to clear? | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
Thank you for telling me that getting my masters in economics was | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
a waste of time! And we're joined now | :09:58. | :09:59. | |
by professor Tony Yates. He organised a letter to the Times | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
earlier this month - signed by almost 200 economists - | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
arguing that leaving the EU would be Why should we believe that, since | :10:05. | :10:16. | |
you, not personally, your profession seems to have called almost every | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
major economic event wrong? This isn't really about forecasting. A | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
great analogy by Giles in the Financial Times where he said that I | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
couldn't forecast my own weight with any accuracy, 15 years hence but if | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
I stuff my face with pastries every morning, I guarantee that I'm going | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
to get heavier. Similar analogy. Everything we have had from the IMF, | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
the OECD, the Treasury, it is all forecasting? It is couched as a | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
forecast but merely what you are really comparing is two forecasts, | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
all sorts of things are known but one thing is different between the | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
scenarios, leaving the EU and that's something we know about. We can look | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
at history, how trade and openness has affected economic performance | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
and we can get a sense of what happened in the past and what will | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
happen next time. Looking at the Treasury forecast, the long-term | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
one, the first one in 2013, even though it was disguised and they | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
didn't actually put the figures, if you do the sums, what the Treasury | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
forecast said was that if we stay in the EU, we will grow by a lot, and | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
if we leave the EU, we will grow by a lot, but not as much, that's all | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
it said but that's not how it was dressed up. I think the point they | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
made is pretty reasonable." Scenarios, we grow by a lot? -- in | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
both scenarios. There is a fantastic force of innovation and | :11:49. | :11:50. | |
entrepreneurialism that will make itself felt in both cases but in one | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
case you have the restraint on trade, departing the single market, | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
effectively. What a lot of these reports have assumed, particularly | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
the Treasury one, is that between now and 2030 we are incapable of | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
doing any kind of free-trade deals. That's not an economist's call, that | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
is a political call, and it could be wrong. To some extent that's right. | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
Economists don't know any more than... It is the most reasonable, | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
in my view. That we can do no deals? That is the Treasury forecast. They | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
are saying that likely economic life outside the EU involves erecting not | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
just tariff barriers, but nontariff barriers. It is the rules and | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
standards that would emerge when we leave the single market that would | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
be so damaging. I guess people will take notice of other people if they | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
got a track record of being right. You were on the monetary strategy | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
team of the Bank of England up to 2008. Did you see the crash coming? | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
No, I didn't. Most economists thought we should join the European | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
exchange rate mechanism. Would you agree that in the end, that proved | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
wrong? Yes, but I dispute that most did. It was a pretty big consensus, | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
the Labour Party's economists wanted to, the Treasury economists, many | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
independent economists, my economic editor wanted me to as well. That | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
was the consensus and it was wrong. Let me put an analogy to you coming | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
most hospitals there were many people dying every day, people die. | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
Still we entrust our health to doctors and surgeons and nurses, the | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
entirety of medical science, which is accumulated to this point. In | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
economics, it's hard. It's not a science, like medical science. I | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
don't want to get into philosophical semantics, there is a business to | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
control a huge economy of 60 million people and it's difficult. We | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
haven't done it yet. Here's another, take the IMF, it has been taking the | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
Treasury line that our economy would be harmed if we left the European | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
Union. We would grow more slowly, there would be a rise in inflation | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
and various other bad things would happen. This is the same IMF that | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
told us, on the very month that this economy was really starting to | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
recover, that the government was playing with fire on the economy and | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
that we were effectively... If we carried on we will be heading for | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
another recession. It was wrong. Well I think they have a point, | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
actually. But they were wrong. Interesting example because on this, | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
our letter signatories differ quite significantly, I have had heated | :14:51. | :14:52. | |
debate with people on the list about whether the coalition were right or | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
wrong but that is up for debate. If we had a more loose fiscal policy, | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
when it became clear that we weren't going to be categorised as being | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
like Greece for example, we would have a stronger recovery. Hold on, | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
on the month that the IMF said we were going to go backwards and that | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
Britain was playing with fire, we began the strongest recovery of any | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
G7 economy. You could say that it could be stronger. Exactly, that's | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
my point. But the IMF didn't say that on current policy, you will | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
recover but not as strongly as you could, they said that we wouldn't | :15:32. | :15:32. | |
recover. Those that on current policy and | :15:33. | :15:40. | |
given the way we see all the other shocks happening, that's what we | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
think will happen. Then someone came along nobody could have forecast. | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
What was that? Whatever it was spurred the economy into life again. | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
Aren't you worried that the work you do is misused? Last night the | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
Treasury put out this new announcement, saying that pensioners | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
would be worse off by ?137 a year if we beat the EU. The main reason it | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
said that, when you dig down, is that it assumed that because the | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
pound would fall, inflation would be higher. What is clearly wrong with | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
that forecast? I haven't yet read that in detail. OK, I'll tell you. | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
Out of you what's wrong, which is why it is a misuse. -- I'll tell you | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
what's wrong. There is a triple lock on pensions. They rise by whatever | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
is higher, including inflation, so if the Treasury report was right, | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
pensions would rise by the level of inflation. It's a misuse of the | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
canonic. I don't want to comment on that. -- misuse of the economic. | :16:45. | :16:53. | |
This is my view, and my letter was both signatories' view, we are going | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
to get poorer if we left. The prosperity generated... The size of | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
the pie shrinks, and therefore the size of the pensions would shrink. | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
Pensioners can wrestle higher share of it. None of the forecasts - the | :17:08. | :17:17. | |
IMF, the OECD, the Treasury, B none of them say that we will get | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
poorer. They say we won't be as rich. Every forecast says we will be | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
richer and if we beat the EU, we won't be as rich as if we stayed in. | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
That's not poorer. -- leave the EU. There is the short-term cost of | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
leaving. Tell us a forecast. I've looked at the centre for economic | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
performance, the Oxford economic scum of the CBI, the OECD, the | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
Treasury. Tell us one that says we will actually be aura as opposed to | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
less rich than we would have been. -- poorer. Let me give you my | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
projection. They're two issues to deal with, where we end up in the | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
long run and what happened in the short run. What happened in the | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
short run is extremely dicey. And could be uncertain. I think it is | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
extremely likely to be negative. What do you think of economists in | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
these matters? I'm right in saying that these documents produced by the | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
Treasury in the last few weeks, the Chancellor has excluded the Office | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
for Budget Responsibility, because he said before he came into power | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
that the Treasury forecasting was a shambles, it was useless and it was | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
politicised and there was abundant evidence that it was useless. And so | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
he invented the Office for Budget Responsibility to bring independence | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
and authority to forecasting that has been excluded from these last | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
three disgraceful dodgy dossier is so diverse shambles. The Chancellor | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
says there is some strategy reason, that the OBR is only there to do | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
budget forecasts. I don't know what the technical reason is. It is | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
instructed to do specific forecasts. The Treasury has had to go back to | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
what it stop doing five years ago. It was attacked by the Chancellor as | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
politicised and not to be trusted because it had been abused by Gordon | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
Brown and now it has been abused in exactly the same way by Chancellor | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
Osborne as Brown and Darling abused their forecasts beforehand. We got | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
to move on but just a question, Professor. Whether we leave the EU | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
or stay in, how high do you think the risk now is of a booming | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
recession? -- looming. There was quite a lot of talk that the world | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
economy is anaemic and that some economies are slowing down and that | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
there has been no great recovery and that the business cycle is... I know | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
business cycles don't die but on average, we are reaching the end of | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
this one. How high would you rate that? May be 30 or 40 but said John | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
survey recession. If we wake up and find that we are leaving. -- 30 or | :19:57. | :20:05. | |
40 percentage chance of a recession. If we stay in? If we stay in, | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
unlikely. I think we will have very subdued growth for another half year | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
or so, partly because of the worries about Brexit that have accumulated | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
over the last few months, partly because of other things weighing | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
down. Note for -- recession foreseeable? I don't think so. | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
When all the excitement over the EU referendum has calmed down, | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
the next big set-piece in the political calendar will be | :20:33. | :20:34. | |
the Chilcot Report into Britain's role in the invasion and subsequent | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
The inquiry has served a proxy trial of the Blair government, | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
as well as the war's cheerleaders in other parties, | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
the intelligence community, our military leadership | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
and Britain's special, some might argue too special, | :20:49. | :20:50. | |
The report will be published on Wednesday 6th July. | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
So brace yourselves for acres of news coverage. | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
Will also be prime list of questions and a 90 minute Daily Politics. -- | :21:04. | :21:13. | |
it will also be Prime Minister's Questions. | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
This is what Tony Blair had to say earlier this week. | :21:18. | :21:19. | |
We underestimated, profoundly, the forces that were at work | :21:20. | :21:21. | |
in the region and that would take advantage of the change, | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
The lesson is not actually complicated, the lesson | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
It's that when you remove the dictatorship, out come these | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
forces of destabilisation, Al-Qaeda on the Sunni side or Iran | :21:33. | :21:34. | |
Our guest today, Peter Oborne, has just published his alternative | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
findings in his book Not The Chilcot Report. | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
It's a lot shorter! Much shorter and cheaper! A tenner! | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
John Rentoul is a long-term defender of Tony Blair's role in the war. | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
He joins us now to talk welcome. This is not the Chilcot Report but | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
since we don't know what the Chilcot Report is, how could you write one | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
that is not the Chilcot Report? I don't know if you noticed but the | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
Chilcot Inquiry went on for about six years. Oh, I noticed! All of it, | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
almost all of it, is on public record. There are fascinating bits | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
of Blair- bush correspondence that aren't but generally speaking, it is | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
on public record. As was the case with the Hutton inquiry. It was on | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
public record. So you can look at the testimony given to Chilcot, and | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
other testimony, and reach a conclusion, and it is 35,000 words. | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
I think it is quite clear and makes certain arguments. I'm not saying | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
that Chilcot will agree with me but at least, when he comes along, you | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
got this book and you can say, well, these are the key points. Do you | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
fear that the Chilcot Report will be a whitewash? I don't think you will | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
exactly be a whitewash but what I do think is troubling at the moment is | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
that it looks like it is spreading itself much too wide. Criticising 40 | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
or 50 different people, reportedly. 2.6 million words, five times the | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
size of War And Peace. It looks like a bit of Gothic architecture which | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
is not very clear, not very focused, doesn't deal in an intellectually | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
lucid way with the problems raised. You concluded the war was illegal. | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
For sure. Actually not just wrong in terms of foreign policy or morally. | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
What is the basis of saying that? It is very hard to argue with the | :23:48. | :23:56. | |
Attorney General's advice in 2003, which was plausible. Or 27 members | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
of the Foreign Office but it was illegal. We never got the second | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
resolution to justify going to war. 11 out of the 15 members of the | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
Security Council but it would not be Beagle. Those are the legal | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
arguments, if you like. What do you say to that? I don't think Peter | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
knows what illegal means. It means it wasn't illegal, I think. What | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
does that mean? There is a very simple test to apply. You can get | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
into the legal arguments but there is a short cut, which is that for 13 | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
years since the Iraq war, no legal case against the decision has even | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
been started. That is the beginning and end of it. If it was illegal, | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
that implies that there is some court in which it can be tried and | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
it hasn't been. Can I say, I think this really is the less important | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
point. The point isn't so much whether it was legal or not, it is | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
whether it was right or not and everything about the Iraq war was | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
wrong. Iraq was not housing the people who carried out the 9/11 | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
attacks against America. It had no justification. Iraq was a country | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
that was not a threat to the rest of us and when you see Tony Blair there | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
saying, "I didn't understand that if I took away the man who had been | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
controlling this very divided country for 40 years in a barbaric | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
fashion, that there were going to be destabilising forces that would rise | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
up and turn it into chaos," you think, "Did you never read a single | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
history book ever in your life er" the first duty of all states is to | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
create security. Thomas Friedman of the New York Times just before the | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
war began said that the danger is trying to take Iraq apart and we | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
don't know whether Iraq is as it is because of Saddam Hussein or whether | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
Saddam Hussein is the kind of brutal dictator he is because of the | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
difficulty of trying to keep together a rhythm, sectarian country | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
like Iraq. There was nothing I like about Iraq's regime, there is | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
nothing I like about that dictator but that doesn't mean we understood | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
in any way how you would run a secure state if you took that system | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
apart. It was sheer arrogance. I'm going to put that to John in a | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
moment but I want to come back to the legal point that he may. The | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
legality is interesting and it will be adjusting to see what the fallout | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
is when the Chilcot Report is published. Why has nobody attempted | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
legal proceedings against Mr Black was Bob because it was lawful. I | :26:31. | :26:38. | |
know you believe that. Their arguments about whether it was | :26:39. | :26:48. | |
lawful or not. One is in self defence and the other is if there | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
was Security Council backing for it. Neither applied. Why has nobody | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
moved on this? This is in the final advice given by Goldsmith. If you | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
are member of the Security Council... And we have the | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
International Criminal Court. It was not in 2003 able... And Goldsmith | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
made... To prosecute a member state for a crime of aggressive war. You | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
are completely right but it is a technical point. The war itself was | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
a war of aggression. Would it not be fair to say that as historians look | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
back at the second half of the 20th century and Britain's foreign | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
policy, that there is quite a consensus that by far the two | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
biggest foreign policy mistakes Worsley wears in 56 and the invasion | :27:37. | :27:53. | |
of Iraq in 2003? -- were Suez. There is no arguing that there were | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
terrible consequences. Peter and I have been arguing about this for | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
years. It is his invocation of bad faith on the part of Tony Blair. I | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
am a defender of Tony Blair in the sense that I regard him as having | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
been quite a good Prime Minister. You think you made a mistake going | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
into Iraq? There is a world of difference between making a mistake | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
and doing so dishonestly. I didn't ask you if it was dishonest. But you | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
concede it was, in retrospect, a mistake? Of course. It was a | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
disaster. I don't want to use the mistake word. Bigger than that, you | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
think? I think it was a reasonable decision to take. I don't think that | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
the good faith argument by the Prime Minister is sustainable. He was | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
called disingenuous by a Lord. I thought that was disgraceful. I | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
going to this in great detail in the book. The statements made to | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
Parliament and in the media by Tony Blair word not the same as what he | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
was hearing from... That is not the same as... You have to substantiate | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
the allegation. You need to let him state the case. But he's not | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
stating... No, no to talk you don't get to run this. I run this. In | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
front of the Prime Minister is the intelligence guidance. It is | :29:23. | :29:31. | |
sporadic, patchy and very, very... And the Prime Minister comes to | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
Parliament and on the media and says... He takes away the caveats | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
and makes it firm and clear that there is the threat and he does | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
possess the weapons and so forth. I'm not saying it is bad faith but | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
he's misrepresenting the intelligence. That is where the | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
Fraser disingenuous was used. Do you think it was an honest mistake or, | :29:59. | :30:05. | |
to use John rental's words, an honest disaster, or did the Prime | :30:06. | :30:07. | |
Minister tell us things that he really knew not to be true? I think | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
he probably believed them at the time he said them. I think he | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
probably thought Iraq was a threat because that's what I've been told | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
and if the evidence is not there because I believe it to be true, it | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
doesn't matter if I is saturated. I think that is scandalous because I | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
don't think his good faith is what we have to question. We have to | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
question having a Prime Minister who is making decisions that ends up | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
wrecking the lives of millions and killing hundreds of thousands and | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
destabilising the Middle East, it is ignorance we have to charge with. It | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
is not OK to go into a situation treating the rest of the world as if | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
it is a fairy story, saying, I am going to take away a bad guy and | :30:46. | :30:47. | |
things will happen. It is very easy to say that in | :30:48. | :30:58. | |
hindsight. You need to let him talk! They were not the arguments made | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
against the invasion at the time. I did. Very impressive but I'm glad | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
that Peter has accepted that Tony Blair didn't act in bad faith. He | :31:09. | :31:18. | |
misrepresented the distance of weapons of mass destruction. Behave | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
yourself or you have to go to the back of the class. Lord Butler | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
calling him disingenuous, after he wrote the report in which he did not | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
say that, I thought that was a disgraceful way of attacking the | :31:33. | :31:34. | |
Prime Minister, with the benefit of hindsight. The war was in 2003, | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
that's when it started and it is still causing tensions to rise. | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
John, we are going to move on but no doubt we will be back on July the | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
6th, which will give us something else to talk about after the | :31:51. | :31:51. | |
referendum. Now, if you're a student | :31:52. | :31:52. | |
in Scotland you can attend a Scottish university | :31:53. | :31:54. | |
free of charge. In England, Wales and Northern | :31:55. | :31:56. | |
Ireland at the moment you pay But a new report from the Sutton | :31:57. | :31:58. | |
Trust and Edinburgh University shows that Scotland is doing far worse | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
than England in getting school leavers from poor | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
backgrounds into university. The Sutton Trust found children | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
from the most disadvantaged areas are four times less likely to go | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
to university than those Only 8% of 18-year-old | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
Scots from the poorest areas enter university, | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
compared with 17% in England. 90% of all growth in those first | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
entering Scottish higher education has been through courses in colleges | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
that are not degree-level. And the report found no evidence | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
that the SNP's abolition of tuition fees had improved application, | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
acceptance or entry rates This is what Scotland's Deputy First | :32:43. | :32:44. | |
Minister, John Swinney, There has been an historical | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
problem in younger people from deprived backgrounds getting | :32:52. | :32:59. | |
into university in Scotland. Of course we are seeing significant | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
improvements in that position. Young people in Scotland are now | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
much more likely to go to university under the actions of the SNP | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
government than when we came But there is much more to do in this | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
subject and that's why the government established | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
the commission on widening access. Its recommendations are essentially | :33:19. | :33:20. | |
reflected in the Sutton Trust's report and the government | :33:21. | :33:22. | |
is in the process of implement This problem is something we have | :33:23. | :33:36. | |
raised before and we have done some interviews and talked about how this | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
is in a country which historically has been rather good at getting kids | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
from poorer backgrounds into prestigious universities. | :33:44. | :33:44. | |
Now, we asked for someone from the Scottish Government | :33:45. | :33:46. | |
to come on the programme, but no-one was available. | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
We are joined in the studio by Dr Lee Elliot Major, | :33:52. | :33:53. | |
So what's going on here? On the face of it, you would think that if there | :33:54. | :34:07. | |
were no tuition fees, it would remove a barrier to students from | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
poorer backgrounds thinking about going to university? Yes, the | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
tuition fees, only part of the problem. One of the golden rules of | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
social mobility is that you have to expand educational opportunities to | :34:20. | :34:27. | |
increase levels of the poorest going to university. There is a cap on | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
faces and if you don't expand them, there is no room to expand access. | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
Is there a cap, I didn't realise that. There is no cap in England. | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
There has been a big expansion. As the camp been a consequence of free | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
tuition fees, that if the money is going to pay for tuition fees, you | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
have to put a cap on the numbers to university? Basically it is a | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
budgetary compromise, if you're not going to charge fees and you have | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
limited government support for universities, these fees allow you | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
to expand universities but it is getting the balance right. There are | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
concerns about the huge debts in England but it doesn't mean that we | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
are not against these. You may want to charge them, but a lower level | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
than than in England. The problem is there is a fixed number of places. | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
Critics have said that the abolition of Jewish and | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
critics have said that the abolition of tuition fees has been a big hit | :35:28. | :35:44. | |
to middling -- meaning a lot of upper-middle-class students get | :35:45. | :35:46. | |
university. There is some truth to that. There is a huge gap in schools | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
as well, so if you're not getting results in the school system, you | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
won't get children coming to university because they won't get | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
the grades. Was it made worse by the Scottish Government, partly to help | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
to pay for the cost of free tuition fees, whittled away the grants that | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
were given to students from poorer backgrounds to help them get through | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
university? If you are from a poorer background, tuition fees are | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
something you have to break down the road, that could be the elephant | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
lurking in the room further away but to get through university, you need | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
some money to be able to survive. That's right, we have a real concern | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
about the lack of loans in Scotland for people who don't have the money | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
to see them through a degree course. You are right, we need more loans. | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
There is some good news, places like St Andrews have places for | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
disadvantaged students and they've been very successful. One thing we | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
have said, keep the place is open for talented students from poorer | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
backgrounds. I was the rector of the University of St Andrews, which I | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
enjoyed, but it has a huge number of English public school kids. Yes. | :37:04. | :37:11. | |
Sometimes it is hard to find a Scottish accent, even a posh one! | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
You want all universities to attract talents from all backgrounds. You | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
are saying that... St Andrews has done good work in terms of places | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
for talented kids from poorer backgrounds. The Scottish Government | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
have said to us before when we've done this that the comparisons being | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
made between England and Scotland show that England is better at | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
getting poorer students to university but they are not, | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
trouble. What do you say to that? We have used a number of statistics in | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
the report, the overall message is compelling and I don't think anybody | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
would challenge that. The problem in Scotland is that many kids are going | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
to colleges rather than university. Many colleges do great jobs but | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
essentially the poor kids go to college and the rich kids go to | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
university. Scotland has a real educational challenge on its hands. | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
Doesn't this surprise you because historically, Scotland, four | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
universities, England only two, the tradition that in Scotland, the "Lad | :38:13. | :38:21. | |
of parts", the bright kid went to the high school and then you could | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
get on to university. Yes, I was surprised because when we grew up, | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
we understood that Scottish education was supposed to be so much | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
better than the English state education. Fascinating assembly | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
children are failing in schools. That's the same pattern in England, | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
poor children start school and by the time they are three, failed | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
already hugely behind their middle-class contemporaries. | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
Everything about our system widens the attainment gap. One thing we | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
learn about this, you have to put much more of our resources into | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
preschool education and then into the schools because you're not going | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
to get pork is going through. -- for kids. I have to say, the picture | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
behind it, stunning picture of the University of Leicester. -- poor | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
kids. My word. One of the finest universities! I was listening, | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
stunned, to the conversation. The first thing we take out of it, Tony | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
Blair, who was brilliant to bring in tuition fees and the left was | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
catastrophically wrong, and the paradoxical effect is that there is | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
more social diversity and more people from disadvantaged | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
backgrounds going, because of tuition fees, going to English | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
universities and privileged kids benefiting from the absence of | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
tuition fees in Scotland. How wrong can the left have been, the | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
universities, the unions, the educational establishment? LAUGHTER | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
We have delivered there! I think that the fees are too high, by the | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
way. That's another issue, thank you. | :40:03. | :40:03. | |
Now, how to engage young people in the EU referendum debate? | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
Well, last night, the BBC staged the first | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
this one in Glasgow in front of an audience of young people. | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
The panellists were all over 50, naturally, but that | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
the enthusiasm of the audience, who engaged in some | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
Me and my mum live in a council house. | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
My mum is disabled and needs a bungalow, which there are none of | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
Immigrants are bumped up the list because of this. | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
Am I right to want to leave, basically? | :40:36. | :40:37. | |
Emily and her mum need to realise that the UK government are the | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
The European Union are not some kind of scapegoat for you to keep blaming | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
Right, we've got to have the shortage now but the | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
more we let in, the less houses we have to house them. | :40:52. | :40:53. | |
It's funny that you've got a selective memory. | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
Just remember how many immigrants like my | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
family, like a lot of the people in this audience's family have built | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
Who said young people are interested in politics? -- aren't interested. | :41:05. | :41:16. | |
A flavour of last night's BBC referendum debate there. | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
Now, the designated Leave campaign, Vote Leave, have their own ideas | :41:20. | :41:21. | |
about how to win young people over to their cause. | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
They've decided to let money do the talking by running a competition | :41:25. | :41:26. | |
Vote Leave's Robert Oxley is here to explain. | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
What are you doing? We've produced a website, 50million.co.uk, and if the | :41:30. | :41:41. | |
public can predict the right results in the European Championships they | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
will win ?50 million. It is 50 million because that's the amount we | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
hand to Brussels every day. Based on your dodgy ?350 million a day? Not | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
dodgy at all, it is the amount debited out of the UK that is given | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
to the EU. Of course it is more than that, ?52 million and when some of | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
that comes back there is a big issue. The head of UK cities to its | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
authority -- statistics authority says that is not genuine. I have | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
them here. I have been down this road too often, the fact is that we | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
don't send that amount every week because the rebate comes off first, | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
it is an abatement, so we don't send that amount of money, that's fact, | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
isn't it? A year ago the Chancellor said that the rebate was not in the | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
UK Government's purview to give out. This is a key argument: people want | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
to talk about how much money goes to Brussels, it is ?350 million a week, | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
?50 million a day, but when the money comes back, the rebate isn't | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
guaranteed. The rebate isn't coming back because it never goes out. It | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
is not actually a rebate, it is an abatement and above the title is the | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
Fontainebleau abatement. Before we send the money over to Europe, as | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
our membership fee, we take the 5 billion off, so actually we sent 13 | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
billion. Anyway, giving out 50 million based on the 350. Just | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
explain to me, what do you have to do to win the 50 million? You go to | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
50million.co.uk and register, it is free to register and you predict the | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
result, when, loss, draw, the games in the European Championships. -- | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
win. Not many girls are interested in football. All of the girls are | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
predicting the results because they can win 50 million. Good point, | :43:31. | :43:38. | |
Jenni. We will have to stop them now! Have you got to predict the | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
result of every game? Every game. The goals of a Mac just went all | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
lose? Win, lose or draw. You can still win ?50,000. There is going to | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
be a winner in the competition. Given that the government have spent | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
?9 million of your money and my money is doing a kind of propaganda | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
campaign, dredging up this Treasury analysis, we need something that's | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
going to level the playing field and I think this is a great way of | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
engaging voters. To win the 50 million, how many games have you got | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
to get right? I have been concentrating more on the campaign | :44:18. | :44:19. | |
but you have got the group stages, 122 games in total. The key point is | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
that if someone does not predict every result right, and there is | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
every chance that they can there is a guaranteed ?50,000 for the person | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
who goes furthest in the predictor. So if no one gets everything right, | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
there is still 50,000 for the person who got it most right? Absolutely, | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
and the great thing is that you don't have to be a league supporter, | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
you can be a remain supportive. If Lord Rose is the head of the | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
campaign he can still take part. It is great when we are worried about | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
the championship distracting from the referendum. I would like to | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
prove you wrong bike you coming back on the programme and telling us how | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
many young men have entered your competition and how many women. -- | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
by you coming back. The idea you can engage people by asking them to give | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
the details of what's going to have an ineffable championship, it is | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
ludicrous. Did nobody in your office that and think about the | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
participation in football? -- in a football championship. | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
This was not just about engaging young people but about engaging all | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
people. She was talking about this being biased towards men. I'm Rabada | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
by female friends and mail going to take part in this campaign. We have | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
an issue in Westminster, that people don't engage in politics. People | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
say, I haven't been engaged with it, and people are more worried about | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
the football championship. What you are doing is data mining, isn't it? | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
We actively want to engage with people. They have to give their | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
e-mails and some other details. We have to get in touch with people if | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
they win. I understand that but it is called data mining. Most | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
publications do it as well these days. How much does it cost you to | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
ensure the 50 million? That is one for the insurance guys. We are going | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
to stay within spending limits. The money I have to pay is the ?350 | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
million we pay to Brussels every week. Presumably Vote Leave is | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
paying for insurance? It is insured. There is this ?50,000 available. | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
There are premiums. We will be declaring it within electoral | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
spending. We are making sure we stick in the rules, unlike the | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
Government. I don't think Jenni or I will be taking part. | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
Now, a private member's bill is a piece of legislation | :46:47. | :46:48. | |
As they aren't in government, it's one of the only ways for them | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
It's decided by ballot, but there's only a limited amount | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
of time for debate - so it's usually just the top seven | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
MPs who are successful in getting their bill heard. | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
Though not necessarily on the statute book. | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
It happened yesterday and, in a moment, we'll | :47:09. | :47:10. | |
speak to the lucky MP who topped the ballot. | :47:11. | :47:12. | |
But there was something different about how the ballot itself | :47:13. | :47:14. | |
The mother of all parliaments, a place where the grandest | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
traditions of democracy merge with modern thinking. | :47:19. | :47:20. | |
They used to use a sort of paper raffle ticket system to pick out | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
which MP would top the private members' bill list. | :47:26. | :47:27. | |
But it was decided that was far too outdated, | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
Now they've opted for something more modern. | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
Here it is, the private members' bill ballot brought into | :47:38. | :47:39. | |
the 21st-century, with cutting-edge technology. | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
Each one of these wooden balls represents the hopes | :47:44. | :47:45. | |
and dreams of an MP, and it could be your MP. | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
OK, they're essentially mothballs with numbers | :47:50. | :47:51. | |
engraved in a goldfish bowl, but this is democracy in action. | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
It's a little bit like the lottery, isn't it, | :47:58. | :47:59. | |
You just grind them around a little bit and we will pick out the ball. | :48:00. | :48:06. | |
We will cross-reference the member's name to the number. | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
Tradition dictates it is the Deputy Speaker and chairman of ways | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
This selection process is new but the prestige of coming | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
high up in the ballot goes back centuries. | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
Actually private members' bills matter and it makes a difference. | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
Here is a chance, it's not the government, it's not | :48:29. | :48:30. | |
the opposition, this is individual members wanting to make legislation. | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
Are you ever tempted to do a kind of bingo | :48:36. | :48:37. | |
Well, I think that's always a problem, isn't it? | :48:38. | :48:47. | |
You pick it up, it's a bit harder with something like 173! | :48:48. | :48:49. | |
But you know, if we were to pick at number ten, Cameron's den, | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
we've got a bit of something there, haven't we? | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
And the SNP's John Nicholson, who came top of the ballot | :48:56. | :49:08. | |
for private members' bills, joins us now. | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
Does this mean you are the most popular person in Parliament? I am | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
unbelievably popular or, at least, I have been for the last 24 hours. | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
I've never had so much air kissing in my life. George Osborne came | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
across to see me yesterday. I thought I was about to be hoped in a | :49:27. | :49:36. | |
manly embrace. -- hugged. I think he is worried about what private | :49:37. | :49:38. | |
member's bill and going to introduce an impact on him and the government. | :49:39. | :49:45. | |
When you went into this process, did you have any idea what you wanted to | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
do? The thought never crossed my mind that I would win, I have to | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
say. What are the odds? Very low, but you did. I did and I tweeted | :49:55. | :50:02. | |
asking for ideas and I know that you have done the same on my behalf. | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
I've got some of the ideas here. Let's hear them. They range from | :50:08. | :50:14. | |
compulsory voting, looking after the pensioners who have been | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
disadvantaged, David Chambers says "Jail all MPs for life if they are | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
caught lying". That would be even more popular. There is a straight | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
bananas request. Legalise all drugs. Replace the House of Lords and one | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
of several that I really like from James Melville, which is to force | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
supermarkets to give away food that isn't sold at the end of everyday. | :50:40. | :50:46. | |
We've had some, you know, because we asked. We've got tightening up of a | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
election expenses - that's topical. Automatic voter registration - | :50:53. | :50:54. | |
that's an interesting one. Proper funding for cycling. That is clearly | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
not come from somebody in London, where you see all these cycle | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
highways. Re-nationalise the railways. Make St George's Day a | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
bank holiday, very fitting for an SNP MP. And a knighthood for Dennis | :51:10. | :51:16. | |
Skinner. Two of these you couldn't do. You couldn't do proper funding | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
for cycling. Because it is financial. And you can | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
re-nationalise the railways because private members' bills cannot | :51:27. | :51:28. | |
involve the spending of public money. I have been going through my | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
notes from the House of Commons library telling me what I can and | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
cannot do. I think I am definitely not going to go for something | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
splashy that won't go anywhere, like abolish the House of Lords, much | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
though I would like to, because it will die a death. It is a very | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
privileged position to win this thing and I want to try and get a | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
bit of legislation onto the statute books that will do some good and in | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
order to do that, I'm going to have to build cross bodies abort. Indeed, | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
because the great risk is that even in number one, you get talked out of | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
Parliamentary time, filibustering. Last year, of the 20 private | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
members' world that were introduced, only three made it, and all three | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
were from Tories. The previous year there were one, two, three, four, | :52:24. | :52:30. | |
five. And the previous year... Do you have an idea for John Nicolson? | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
Perhaps you could do something non-contentious like introduce a 50% | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
tax on all property bought in Britain by someone who is not a | :52:42. | :52:43. | |
British resident. He cannot touch tax. Even if it is bringing revenue | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
inquest bob that is exactly what you cannot do. I think automatic voter | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
registration is interesting. Do you want the try Tony Blair at? To | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
impeach the former Prime Minister? A happy thought! And MP already tried | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
that in the last Parliament. Alex Salmond has something on his mind at | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
the moment. When do you have to decide? I have four weeks to come up | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
with a name for it and a further couple of months in order to | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
actually write the bill but, as you know, also, sometimes bills get | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
picked up by governments. Indeed they do. That has happened a few | :53:24. | :53:30. | |
times. We will keep an eye on this. Come back and tell us what it is. | :53:31. | :53:32. | |
Now, they've not been seen together in public since last September. | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
No, I'm not talking about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard - | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
I speak instead of the current Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
They've been sharing a platform this morning to make | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
Let's speed our correspondent Tom Bateman. Where you and what are they | :53:48. | :53:58. | |
talking -- speak to. We are in the centre of Doncaster. Jeremy Corbyn | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
is getting applause. We got the Labour battle bus that has just | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
turned up in the last few minutes and, as you say, he and Ed Miliband | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
sharing a platform together in a significant move for Labour's | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
attempt to try to rally their supporters, to try to get that | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
Labour In campaign focused on what they see as a positive message about | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
the EU. This is a part of the world where there are three Labour MPs, | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
including Caroline Flint and Ed Miliband, who have stumping local | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
majorities. Ukip came second in two of those seats. There is concern, in | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
the same way that many MPs have been reporting they are going back to | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
their constituencies and hearing about reporting hostility towards | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
the EU from some traditional Labour voters. Some in the Labour Party | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
think this is all happening too late but it is part of a push to get the | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
Labour vote out, so crucial it is in the referendum. Thanks for that. | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
There they are together. A historic first, here on the Daily Politics. | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
Angst will bring us up to speed. Mr Corbyn and Mr Miliband gather at | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
last. -- thanks for bringing us up to speed. | :55:12. | :55:13. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the andwer to our quiz. | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
The question was, what did Green Party London Assembly member | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
Sian Berry say would break up if Britain leaves the EU? | :55:20. | :55:21. | |
So, Jenni and Peter, what's the correct answer? | :55:22. | :55:30. | |
The last. No. Couples. London couples. Sian Berry made that claim | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
about cobbles in London and joins us now. I assume this was a joke? No, | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
there are three interventions that I've made in this debate. Let's | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
stick to this one. This was to bring the debate back to the human scale | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
because there is a lot of talk very big numbers and macroeconomics. Why | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
would couples break up? Couples are our friends and EU immigrants are | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
our friends, loved ones and colleagues and I wanted to know how | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
many couples in London were one partner from the EU and one from the | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
UK. The answer is 100,000 that is one in of our couples. Why would | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
they break up? At the moment, EU people can move freely in and out of | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
the UK. None use browsers partners have to have a minimum income. This | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
is not a joke? I'm one of the 100,000. I'm married to a Swede. You | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
said there are 100,000 couples in London where Britain is in | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
partnership with an EU citizen. I only got married last year. Are you | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
saying that if we leave the EU, I'm more likely to get divorced? If your | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
partner hasn't got indefinitely to remain, there is now a minimum | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
income requirement... Nobody has questioned that any EU citizens | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
currently here will not be able to remain. Nobody has questioned that, | :56:54. | :57:00. | |
right? The whole point of this debate, the fact that people who are | :57:01. | :57:03. | |
on the side of wanting to leave and curb immigration, are talking | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
about... But it is wrong for you to raise an issue which is right. EU | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
nationals who are already here will still be able to stay here, whatever | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
the result. That is covered by everybody in this debate. Nobody is | :57:18. | :57:25. | |
asking them to leave. It is also covered by treaties. But the rules | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
are none you people. As soon as we left the EU, new rules would have to | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
be made. We have to assume that people who are trying to stop | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
immigration do want to stop these kinds of immigrants. Are you saying | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
that the Swedes, the Germans, the Spanish, the Italians, the French, | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
all of them living here now, are going to be deported? Yeah, and | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
people are very worried that they will be subject to the same | :57:54. | :57:55. | |
requirements that apply to non-EU people when we become not a man of | :57:56. | :58:05. | |
the EU. -- member. Both sides have been guilty of scare stories. You | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
just want to the top of the Premier League on scare nonsense. I'm | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
raising a legitimate concern... You don't believe this, do you? People | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
may have to make very difficult decisions. Up in Doncaster, if the | :58:18. | :58:27. | |
Green Party was a serious party, you would have been anti-Europe and you | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
would have made a lot of games at the expense of the Labour Party. We | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
have to leave it here because I've got to go and tell the new wife we | :58:35. | :58:36. | |
are about to be divorced! The one o'clock news is starting | :58:37. | :58:38. | |
over on BBC One now. We're off for a week now | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
as Parliament goes into recess - but I will be back | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
with the Sunday Politics Thanks for joining us. Have a good | :58:45. | :58:46. | |
bank holiday weekend. People were afraid of | :58:47. | :59:07. | |
her political convictions - | :59:08. | :59:19. |