14/06/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Labour lines up its big guns for a show of unity.

Will it help get the party's vote out for Remain?

Vote Leave highlight ?27 million spent by the EU on luxury

hotels and resorts, restaurants and private jets.

But is the spending which amounts to just one fortieth of one

per cent of total EU spending really profligate?

How will citizens in the home of Citizen Smith exercise

their democratic rights when they go to the polls

And we've asked Cass the Psychic Cat, we've

asked the pollsters, but can the bookies give us a better

idea of how Britain will vote in next week's referendum?

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

of the programme today is the former Trade Minister in Gordon

Brown's government of all the talents -

He's now campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union.

Now, they're not an alternative government of course,

but Leave campaigners have today been setting out

what they would like to be done with the money the UK pays

to the EU, should voters opt to leave on 23rd June.

In a letter, signed by Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, the Vote Leave

campaign have pledged to protect the funding for farming, science

and culture that they already receive from the EU until 2020.

The letter goes on to argue that there would still be "billions

more" to spend after those payments, and proposes putting ?5.5 billion

into the NHS by 2020, or ?100 million a week.

And use ?1.7 billion to abolish VAT on household energy bills.

But Remain campaigners, including former Chancellor Alistair

Darling, argue that the Leave campaign have already committed

to more ?100 billion spending commitments

with the money from the EU, and that leaving the EU

would lead to a "black hole in the public finances",

arguing that nine out of ten economists say it

Under whose authority are vote lead campaign is making these

commitments? I'm not part of the official campaign so I've no idea. I

am definitely going to vote to leave but I'm reluctant in as much that I

would love to stay in a reformed EU but I have no confidence in them

doing that. My concern is that nobody on either side actually

knows. They are peddling the possibilities on both sides as if it

is fact. They are very close to doing a budget and an alternative

budget. Is that what it sounds like? As you were reading that, I thought,

this is like a Tuesday in March. What worries me is that, I know why

they have to do it, because the economy is where Remain is trying

hard to win. Do you think the Leave campaign has struggled on the

economy? I think if Leave is winning on immigration and Remain is winning

on the economy, the problem is with the economy is that nobody knows. I

get frustrated by Remain who are saying this is going to happen and

this is going to happen, I wouldn't trust an economist to run a bar! I

remember I took the euro of the agenda at the CPI and I had 20

economists writing saying it would be Armageddon if we don't join the

Euro! And on that basis of don't know or both sides are peddling what

they say are facts, how dangerous is it to have a list of spending

commitments, this does come from Remain, but saying they have spent

over and over again the money they say will be saved if we come out? I

haven't gone through it any more than what you just said. If it

doesn't stand up to the rigour, never use it, and I'm not sure

Alistair Darling has done anything this morning other than what any

politician would do. The trouble with politicians talking about this

is they are skilled at getting people to vote, that is what they

do. The first casualty in that fight is always the truth. I don't blame

Johnson and Michael Gove for saying, if I saved this money, this is where

I would spend it, and Remain saying you're not going to save that money.

But we have to understand is that nobody knows. And one thing that

nobody is saying is if you vote to remain, you are not voting for the

status quo, you're voting for an entirely different sort of Europe.

There will be an economic cost of staying in and of coming out. And if

you're looking at the figures, and you are a businessman, if Vote Leave

was a business... If the EU was a business it would be bust. And would

Vote Leave be bussed if they have totalled up all these spending

commitments from what is supposedly ?250 million a week. If it is true

and I have pledged money they don't have, of course it won't happen. But

who knows? We don't know, neither do they and neither do Remain. What I

do know is that there will be an economic cost of hitching your wagon

to yesterday's organisation in Asia's 21st century and there will

be a market cost in the short term for coming out as well. If you think

there will be a market cost, we will discuss that further, but on the

politics, there is a Tory politician who has this morning said that Vote

Leave can say that they're going to spend the money if Britain pulls out

on these spending commitments because they have been made by Tory

ministers so it can be true. Presumably he was making a political

point and the answer is, politically, of course. Then you get

into what we do in March which is listened to a budget and compare the

alternative. I don't think it is right that politicians of both

sides... I don't believe I want a Prime Minister who says I'm only

looking after half the country. But you politicians on the other side

saying it is a political debate. It isn't, it is about my grandchildren,

which side of the world you want to working in their time. They should

not be about an extra ?4.5 million should be available for subsidising

theatres in five years' time. They are treating this as politics and

immediate finances instead of looking out, down to microgeneration

is about where Europe is, where is the economy, where is Asia's century

and how you tool up for welfare, health care and pensions when the

whole world is walking to the beat of a different drum. And both sides

have had a go at things like pensions. We will talk about it

further. The question for today is, what did

European Council President Donald Tusk say Britain leaving the EU

would lead to the destruction of? c) England's chances

of winning Euro 2016. At the end of the show

Digby will give Now, we have with us

a former Trade Minister But while his former boss

was strutting the stage yesterday, banging the drum for Remain,

Digby is a businessman and former director general of the CBI,

who is campaigning for Britain So what are the economic claims

for and against our continued The Chancellor, George Osborne,

has published Treasury analysis warning that a vote to leave

is a vote for a DIY recession, with David Cameron later describing

such a result as "a bomb under The Treasury analysis says that,

in the worst circumstances, up to 820,000 jobs could be lost

and growth could be up to 6% The IMF, OECD and IFS have also

warned of a hit to the economy But the campaign group

Economists for Brexit - made up of eight independent

economists - suggests that leaving would see the UK economy

actually grow more in 2020 They say that reduced EU regulation

and better use of the money saved from not contributing to the EU

budget would enable the UK The Remain campaign notes that,

according to HMRC, 44% of British The Remainers say if we left

that the EU could put up trade barriers, putting between 3

and 4 million jobs linked to EU But critics say that

because those jobs aren't linked directly to EU membership,

we could do our own deal with the EU which would maintain levels of trade

and safeguard employees. They also say that,

while a member of the EU, the UK can't do its own trade deals

with countries like America, India, or China - none of which currently

have a trade deal with the EU. And the Leave side claim that EU

regulation costs UK small businesses ?600 million a week and that

removing this burden would allow Well, the Commons Business Committee

has been talking to leading lights Here's a flavour of

what they had to say. It is unprecedented to see so many

FTSE 100 chairmen, chief executives, on behalf of their company,

not in a personal capacity which is what they have done

previously, to actually come out and say it is extraordinarily

important for the future of Britain that we remain

in the European Union. And of course these large businesses

to employ 10 million people. It's 40% of all employment,

over 50% of all turnover One of the things that concerns me

about immigration, and I had this discussion with the Governor

of the Bank of England a number of times last year,

was about the downward Which at this point in the economic

cycle should be rising now. I think for people in the country,

that is one of the big concerns. Joining us to put the business

case for remaining is Labour's Rachel Reeves,

who shadowed both the Treasury and Work and Pensions departments

during her frontbench career and is a former Bank

of England economist. Welcome to the show. The CBI

commissioned PWC to assist the economic impact of leaving the EU.

If we remain, the economy could be 41% larger by 2030 but under one of

the scenarios for leaving we strike free trade agreement and we would

still grow by 39%. The difference is hardly game changing? It will be

pretty game changing for people on ordinary incomes. If the economy

grows more slowly than it would otherwise have done, that means less

money at the end of the month to pay the rent and mortgage and the bills.

But look at what will happen in the near term, what is already happening

before we have even voted, and that is that sterling has fallen, stock

markets have fallen, money is leaving the UK, business investment

decisions are being postponed. What does it mean for ordinary people? We

know what recessions mean because we saw it in 2008. Wages are falling or

stagnating, people losing their homes and people losing their jobs.

It is people on modest and middle incomes who always pay the highest

price when economies falter and go into recession. If we make that

decision in nine days, people should be under no illusions about what it

means for the cost of living and jobs and growth. White should be

risked even a slight shrinking in economic growth even if it is for

the short term as the Vote Leave campaign is saying? Why should

people be worried about the future of their jobs even in the short

term? And if these scenarios are played out, there would be a

shrinking and use it at the beginning you agreed. I see a

perception causing a short-term job. Sterling has risen since March so

please don't starve the alarmist about falling currency. It is at a

two-month low. I said sterling and stock markets. It hasn't. Why did

you say it has? It is at a two-month low. It is higher today than in

March. But what happened before March? It has been fluctuating a

lot. I want to deal in facts. Politicians come on here and save

the pound has been falling, it hasn't. To answer your question,

this is about the local competitiveness of our nation in

Asia's century. We are hitched to an organisation that worked a treat

between 1957 and 1990 and has failed - the 20 million people ever since.

If we carry on like this, we will not be able to afford pensions and

health care and welfare in 20 years' time will stop if somebody says, for

a couple of years it's going to be not Armageddon and recession but

difficult, but the reward is in 20 years you are globally competitive,

it is very irresponsible of politicians... Would there be a

reward after two years? Let's say there would be that short-term shock

and sterling could fall and there might be some sort of downward

pressure. If the economy was liberated, would that be something

you could support? Look at what the Gordon Browner of

the Bank of England has said: There will be a short-run cost to leaving

the EU but there will be a long-run cost. We will no longer have access

to the single market Yes you will. Brexit campaigners like Michael Gove

and Boris Johnson say we will not be part of a single market. It doesn't

mean we would not have access. You are either part of the single

market, or you are not. ... You could negotiate access to it. Of

course you can still trade but whether you have access in terms of

a tariff-free trade, Brexiters are saying they don't want That if the

single market means, what it means inner terms of wealth creation is

zero tariff. Much more than that. On the services side, as you well know

75% of our economy is services and the services directive isn't

implemented in France, let alone anywhere else. The services

directive doesn't work, Rachael. Don't talk over reach other. Go on,

Rachael. In my constituency in Leeds, financial services is a huge

part of our economy. Under the single market, there is pass porting

rules, which means that companies who are registered here have access

to be able to trade for the whole of the European Union. But it doesn't

work. Well, explain the fact it doesn't work. I am on the board, one

of my companies is an invoice company in London, we are trying to

open in France. We have had French regulators say - we don't want

British companies to do this. I have said there is a services directive,

the single market. I hear Labour politicians tell me there is a

single market I can make you. They say of course you can, take me to

the court justice. I said I can't afford it. They say exactly. It is

not going to happen. You don't know And neither do them. The single

market is about zero tariff. It is much more than that. What would be

the tariffs be? How high? At the moment, when there are tariffs,

telepretty low No-one going to put them up from zero. The World Trade

Organisation have said that it would be the worst-possible outcome - the

worst possible outcome would be for us to leave the single market. What

do they say the tariff levels would be? ? Different for different

industries. In the car manufacturing it is between 10 and 12% Germany

sell 1 million cars to British. The highest profit margin the in world

is the British awe tow market dou. Think, Mercedes, BMW and Audi are

going to I a plough Brussels to put a tariff on that, I don't think so.

The point is, you have no idea what will happen? Neither have you and

you sit well this aam laist stuff. You a typical middle age bloke who

loves interrupting women. You don't know how to conduct yourself, Let me

answer the question that Jo. Please answer the question and don't come

out with all the stuff you normally do. There you go again. But,

Rachael, answer. Off to your prejudice. Answer the specific

question on tariffs. It is important, you don't know they would

be put up to that level, either. The Brexiters like Gove and Johnson say

they want to leave the single market, which means that we go on to

WTO tariffs. Now we don't have, there is not a single example of a

trade negotiation being done with the EU within two years. And of

course, as soon as we leave the European Union, the Prime Minister

says he will invoke article 50, which means in two years we will

leave the European Union and after that period, we will be out of the

single market, on the wcht TO tariffs We won't, we will negotiate

T the German awe tow industry will never allow... And there is no

example of... Let Digby finish. Go on. You finish that thought. Very

kind of you. Tend of the day, the German motor industry is such an

enormous lobbyist in Brussels it will never allow its awe tow

industry not to tell into here on zero tariff, the auto industry. And

the zero tariff, either in remain or leave, I have businesses where I

want to get visas with Indians with engineering skills to come and work

in my K I can't. Because you have a Government and the Labour Government

would be the #15i78, they are saying - we are not going to give the visas

outside, because we can't stop the ones coming inside. I couldn't care

if they are Romanian engineers, it is not about where they come from,

it is the skill. If you want competitiveness inside or outside,

on a business footing, you have to allow us to fish in an immigration

poof 100% of the world and not just 28%. It is an economic issue not

immigration issue. One of the things raised by Tristan hunt on the

discussion you had with him on is imrar ground is you wouldn't be able

to get a deal with the EU unless you accept free movement of labour, do

you think that's true? Yes. Why? Because, for example, with the

Finance Minister in Germany and other countries have said - Digby

says he wants to deal in facts, the fact is that no country has done a

free trade agreement with the EU within two years. Canada has taken

more than seven years. We are not Canada. And you would need the

agreement of all 27 other Member States of the European Union to do

any deal on access to their markets. Wouldn't that be a terrible

disappointment for leave support zblerps if the country votes to

leave the EU, a deal is for some sort of access, a good deal, on the

single market but the quid pro quo has to be some sort of freedom of

movement? And if there is a degree of freedom of movement based on

skill what is wrong with that Free movement within the EU, you would

sign up? I would tell you, if what was coming into Britain on offer,

from inside or outside the EU was quality immigration and a lot of it,

based on I will sk, I would put my hand up for, that it helps creating

wealth to pay for schools Hain hospitals in Britain. What really

does frustrate me is I have people in Brussels telling me that I can't

fish in a pool of 100% of available labour and that diminishes my

availability to be competitive and in 25 years' time, we will be doing

stuff elsewhere and not Britain and you won't be able to afford the

money you normally spend on your schools and hospitals. What do you

say to that Well, I have two young children. I'm in my 30s, in 25

years' time, I want my children to be able to go and live and work

anywhere within the European Union. I want there to be good jobs and

investment in this country and wanted to have first-rate public

services. But at the moment, if you look like countries like Spain and

Italy, for example and Greece, they all want to come here, the young

people, because there are no jobs for them there at the moment. That's

the reality Forestieri now? They are not skilled. There are huge problems

within the European Union at the moment. I'm not saying everything is

fievenlt I think this referendum is wake-up call to the European Union

and British Government that things have to be done differently, on free

dom of mo. , on jobs, on the whole approach to us a terry. - freedom of

movement. We don't know what will happen if we walk away. If we leave,

the European Union could fragment and break up and we will go back to

the same situation that we saw in the 30s and 40s, and the instability

there. If your plea that I don't interrupt you is valid, so is my

request on on behalf of the viewers that you answer the question. The

question was - why isn't business allowed to fish in a reservoir of

100% of available talent in the world and why am I being told I can

only get visa s for people who live in the European Union, or they don't

need a veesia. If you look at net migration, there was more from this

country from outside of the European Union. That's not the point. The

point is I cannot get visaings on a universal basis. Would you want

fewer people to come overall? No, I wouldn't. For me, it is not a

numbers game. For me it is a skill, ability to create #w5e8, generate

tax and pay for schools and Hobbings. -- create wealth. You are

inhibiting businesses ability to create wealth by allowing anybody to

come in from Europe and not allowed skilled people from overseas. I'm in

the a Tory Government minister. Your Government did just the same. You

were part of that Government Don't blame the Tories or Labour. This is

not a tribal issue. It is the Tories who introduced a cap on numbers and

have tried to squeeze out the number of non-EU migrants coming into the

country. I think we need reform of free movement of labour. I don't

think... Hang on a moment. While we have moved on to the territory of

party politics. Stay with us, Rachael, because in the last half an

hour, the Shadow Cabinet have gathered in a show of unity as they

tried to press home Labour's message that Britain should remain inside

the European Union. Conservatives Remainers have stepped

aside this week amidst concern in their ranks that it's Labour

voters who'll fail to turn out Here's what the Labour leader,

Jeremy Corbyn, had to say. This is the Labour movement saying

that we are voting to remain We are saying that because we want

to defend the very many gains we have made by trade unions

across Europe that have brought us better working conditions,

longer holidays, less discrimination Jeremy Corbyn there. Franked by the

shadow kab ne. Jeremy Corbyn has said he is only 7 to 7. Out of 10 on

staying within the EU. Is he want of Leave's best assets? I don't think

that's the answer he should have given. Others in the Shadow Cabinet

are saying today that we are better off and Labour people are better off

within the European Union because of the protection of workers' rights

that are afforded by our membership of the European Union and because of

the high-quality jobs that come to our country because of our

membership. How worried are you, though, that Labour voters aren't

going to turn out? It is a very real challenge. It is really important

that Jeremy and the whole team are out there today, making the grossive

case, the Labour case for our continued membership. -- the

progressive case. What is it like for you on the doorsteps in your

constituency? It is tough. My constituency in Leeds where averagep

earnings are ?18,000 a year. A lot of people have seen over the last

five-10 years, a real squeeze on living standards and income. Are

they voting out? Many are. Is that Labour's failure? In many ways, it

is. Because we need to make a compelling Labour case about

good-quality jobs and investment, tackling some of the problems about

wages being undercut and dealing, for example - one of the things we

had in our last manifesto is no job should be able to advertise overseas

before they are advertised in this country. Employment agencies and

businesses are still able to do that. That means British workers not

even having access to jobs. So it is really important in those last nine

days, it is not just David Cameron and Osborne and the Tories making

the case to stay in the European Union, but that we hear those Labour

voices, including those trade union voices. What is the Labour message?

Is it confused? You are a fan of ti. TP which is controversial for many

within the Labour Party, whereas Jeremy Corbyn said he would veto

that if it was a deal? So what is the Labour message on that? TITIP

doesn't have to be a bad deal for Britain and British workers f it

opens up jobs -- if it opens up jobs and investment it is a good thing

for British export. Why is Jeremy Corbyn wanting to veto it? We said

if it meant the privatisation of the NHS we would not support T we have

had assurances from the United States and the European Union

Commissioner that the health services, for example, will be

exempt from those ti. -- from those TITIP laws. Well, he said he would

veto it. Well, he hasn't. We want concern protections, for example,

for the NHS and environment but let's not throw the baby out with

the bath water. Free trade and bringing down the Paris barriers

will mean cheapers prices for consumers, easing the cost of living

pressures for many families and greater opportunities for British

exspoerts but you asked me what was the labour case for staying in the

European Union. It is about avoiding a race to the bottom b protecting

workers' rights, crack down on tax avoidance as Gordon Brown said, and

as Frances O'Grady, leader of the TUC said, about assuring

high-quality jobs stay in the country. Can I ask you about it.

ITIP? This makes people anxious about what it would mean in terms of

opening up public services here. -- TITIP? Jeremy Corbyn has promised,

so far, to veto T Rachael Reeve, certainly as it stands and if there

was any indication that it might expose the NHS to American

companies, for example? Where do you stand on this? In terms of the head

looun I would be with right. I would say it has to be right to job your

tariff barriers and to get more trade going to create in the medium

term, more wealth for the country and therefore taxes and therefore,

schools and hospitals. In terms of the NHS, which was the specific

question, we all know that's a broken model. Not that it should,

for a minute, ever go into the private sector but that we can't

carry on with something created in 1947 to deal with a getting-older

population. And people born today are going to live to be 100, you are

not going to have 30-odd years with an organisation that wasn't built to

do it. You have to change T the greatest way to change will be

competition. You think done the right way, it would be the right

thing to do I would use TITIP as a catalyst for getting change in the

NHS. Could I ask you one question - when you said then - I want to stay

in the European Union, to protect workers' rights, we have this most

fabulous competitive automotive sector, fully unionised, completely

unionised and applied Unite for the way they have dealt with our

manufacturing. Ask the question. Nobody in their right mind is

actually going to go back on the 40-hour week on agency directives

and maternity and approximate ternity way. They woevenlt it is not

in anybody's interests. There is no evidence. Why would any employer go

back on that? And at the same time, when you are saying - we want it

advertise jobs only in Britain, one of the things that free movement of

labour at the moment is doing, is producing your race to the bottom

because employers, especially small businesses are able to tap into poor

people in Italy and Romania and give them low jobs. Answer that question.

Well at the event we are talking about where Jeremy Corbyn is with

the Shadow Cabinet Tom Watson has been talking to the BBC saying there

should be controls on freedom of movement for EU migrants under any

future Government. Is he right? Yes and I agree with what Ed balls

said on this. Before the last election I talked about workers not

having access to tax credits and benefit system until they have been

here for at least four years. If you had to pay into the system before

you draw down on it. You do need reform. Have wages being depressed?

There are winners and losers from immigration and some people have

lost out because they have been competing for jobs. This is a

wake-up call to people and whatever the result in nine days, we need to

reform the European Union. Workers' rights have been hard fought for and

every step of the way... They have been opposed... There is no evidence

that any Tory government or any government would roll back those

rights. They are guaranteed because we are members of the EU. No,

because the market would not have it any other way. Thank you for coming

in. Now, if going to the polls once this

month isn't enough for you, then you might envy the people

of Tooting who have two opportunities to exercise

their rights as citizens. The by-election that will be held

there this Thursday was prompted by the elevation of its previous MP,

Sadiq Khan, to the position And, as Adam reports,

it's a part of South London that might be familiar to television

viewers of a certain vintage as home to a certain, fictional,

left-leaning citizen. This is where the BBC

filmed the 70s sitcom about an old Marxist,

Citizen Smith. Let's meet some of the people

auditioning to be the area's new MP. Labour has tried to inject some

adrenaline by selecting I'm going to be the lady that works

with Sadiq Khan to make sure that we build affordable homes

to buy and rent and I'm going to be Well, I am a Labour Party

member, I am my own woman. This isn't about Corbyn or Cameron

for me, it's about uniting as the Labour Party

on the issues that matter. When the Tory candidate

is not running for office, which he has done before,

he runs a group that Generally it tends to be people

in office jobs who want to go and get their hands dirty

at the weekend and go and cut some It's good fun actually, going along,

and any group that needs Setting up street festivals,

those kinds of things, just to make the area a bit more fun

and look a bit more spruce. Is that the lesser spotted Big

Society? You might say that but I

couldn't possibly comment. I found the Green candidate checking

on a gadget she had installed It's a real problem,

it's not just a fantasy Green problem, it's a problem

that is affecting many people The state of the roads

worries the Lib Dems too. We have been lobbying as a local

party on those subjects, on safer streets, for years

and nothing has been done. This is very much a Liberal topic

and a Liberal vote to be made. Have you done one of those typical

Lib Dem leaflets where you are pictured standing,

pointing at a road? While the Ukip candidate will be

glad when we are talking We have just had the GLA election,

the mayoral election, and now we have the huge one

on the 23rd of June so really this is like the little child,

isn't it? But how will the contenders cope

when I ask them to recreate the catchphrase of Tooting's

favourite fictional son? The people of Tooting get the power

to pick one of them on Thursday. And you can find a full list

of candidates standing in the Tooting by-election

on the BBC News website. EU officials have been accused

of spending millions of pounds of taxpayers' money every year

on "jollies and exorbitant An investigation by Vote Leave

claims that the European Commission spent ?27 million on so-called

"luxury" just in 2014. The claims included

?347,863 on private jets, including ?17,565 on the five star

Shangri La Hotel in Singapore, has dismissed the allegations

as "simply absurd". Earlier I spoke to the

Labour MEP and former European Council spokesman,

Richard Corbett. I started by asking him what he made

of the claims. Well, let's look at the source

of this for a start. It's Vote Leave, it's the Vote Leave

campaign which has come up with some pretty dodgy figures

and statistics in the past. But even if some of them

were true, and actually, if you look at some of them,

they are stretching it a bit, yes, ministerial meetings

sometimes happen in hotels. Yes, some of those hotels may

offer massage facilities. It doesn't mean any ministers used

those facilities for heavens sake. But even if some of these

claims were correct, of course they should be

investigated and clamped down on. You don't think it's right that EU

officials spent 222,716 If that claim is correct,

it needs to be checked. What I suspect it is,

is that ministerial meetings took Yes, ministerial meetings

across the world take No-one would argue with that

but I think it is the amounts. Is it justifiable to talk

about 5-star hotels Should EU taxpayers be paying

for expenses like that? If there is any extra luxuries

involved that are not connected That is why these things

should be investigated. But let's not forget,

the EU used to be pretty bad at this and things have got quite

a lot better. So if I give you some

more examples. I rather suspect that some

of them are made up, I mean, on golf, you may well look

into that and find that a hotel where a ministerial meeting took

place, perhaps, had That doesn't mean they spent

their time playing But it looks good, doesn't it,

if you put it in a press release and say all this money

was spent at a golf venue! What about, in your position

as an adviser to Herman Van Rompuy, the former president

of the European Council, Or is he happy with something

a little less glamorous? He was a very modest man

and never sought any glamour And so he did stay in 5-star

hotels or did he stay When he went to the G8

summit in Washington, hosted by President Obama,

they stayed in Camp David. But it wasn't his

choice of venue. Some of it is labelled as routine

administrative expenditure and you are quite right,

of course organisations have to spend some money

in terms of going away, meeting with other

dignitaries abroad. But have you ever come across,

in your time, any egregious expenses Not personally but I have read

of things and auditors reports have The important thing

is to be able to clamp down And there, the record

in recent years, is that when abuse has taken place,

the EU has got a lot better at clamping down on things,

partly thanks to MEPs and the European Parliament asking

questions and pinning them down. Partly thanks to the Court

of Auditors, appointed by the member states,

remember, which goes through things

with a fine tooth comb. And it has now signed off the EU

Council for the last nearly ten years, whereas in the past,

year after year it refused to sign off the accounts because they

were not good enough. Now they are good enough

and that's an improvement. It doesn't look good in the public

imagination, does it? Which is exactly why Vote Leave put

together this dossier. And looking at their track record

of claims and allegations, indeed in some cases fibs,

I would take with a pinch of salt every one of those allegations

until I have looked through and checked if there was any

truth in them at all. Do you think it will do any damage

to the Remain campaign? That's what it intended to do

by them, of course, to focus away from the big economic arguments,

the fact that leaving the European Union, the economic

impact of that on Britain Almost all economic forecasters,

who are usually all over the place but for once they all agree,

that this would be a disaster for Britain if we left

the European Union. They want to take

attention away from that. Do you think a bit about cheap shot

by Vote Leave? The biggest problem for me is only ?931 on chocolate! I

don't think it is a cheap shot because it is exploiting a bigger

thing which it is whether ?300,000 in a private jet, that is not the

issue, the issue is trust and transparency. It took an

investigation to find these figures, they are not on a website. People

thinking this fulfilled my prejudices, unaccountable people

spending my money. Do you think it is that bad? I expected it to be

worse than those figures. They do have to spend money but they are

accountable. They are missing the big one, which is ?100 million a

year of everybody's money to move the parliament once a month from

Brussels to Strasbourg to satisfy French pride. ?100 million to do

something you don't need to do! There are moves to stop that

happening. The French will make it difficult. It is like Labour saying

we need to stop some free movement and they are right but eastern

Europe won't agree. The trouble is this organisation is that you cannot

reform it. He is being very straight about it and saying of course we

need to root it out. It is how you do it that is the problem.

Now, back in 1975 most Trade Unions were in favour of Britain

Today most are campaigning to stay in.

But a small number of them are campaigning to leave and there's

been a lively debate about whether EU membership really

We've invited trade unionists from both sides of the debate

First, Manuel Cortes of the Transport Union -

Let's face it, on 24th June, if we leave the EU, we won't be

a step closer to a socialist Nirvana.

Instead, we will have a vicious, vicious Tory Government whose loony

fringe would have been boosted and determined to destroy

all the gains people have made through our membership

From paid holidays to restrictions on working time.

From safer work places to maternity and parental leave.

In the case of rail workers, the EU protections they currently

enjoy, that allows them to keep their hard-fought terms

and conditions when franchises change hands, will be under severe,

That's why I will be campaigning extremely

But in doing so, I will also be looking to win hearts and minds.

Hearts and minds to create another Europe.

A social Europe that everyone deserves.

I strongly urge you to vote to stay in.

And by working together, with ordinary people

across the continent, another Europe, for the many,

not the few, is not only possible, but it is firmly,

Manuel Cortes of the TSSA union there making the case for Remain.

Now Mick Cash of the other transport union, the RMT, with

My union, RMT, opposes the UK's membership of the EU because it has

a negative impact on industry and for workers.

Our members have seen the impact of EU policies of liberalisation,

deregulation and privatisation, which have devastated

industries, including the UK's coal and steel sectors.

The Tory Prime Minister, John Major, broke up and privatised British Rail

This is one example of the bonfire public services, demanded by the EU

As a public service union, how can we support this

The EU has promoted the undercutting of wages and the social

dumping of cheap labour, leading to the decimation

The same is happening in the offshore energy industry.

EU directives also undermine our trade union collective

Some argue that we should stay and fight for something better,

The idea of a social Europe is a myth.

For all these reasons, the RMT is calling

And one of his colleagues, Alex Gordon, joins me now and we're

also joined by Cath Speight of the GMB union who is

Welcome to both you. Alex Gordon, the TUC general section, Franciso

Grady is warning in a peach there will be less money available to fund

the NHS if the UK votes to leave the EU. It is aern with aing reiterate

by the Chief Executive of the NHS, so what assurances can you give that

there will be money for a costly public service? It is a costly

public service and a service we are proud of. Most people in this

country want to invest in, through their taxes, the danger to the NHS,

comes from remaining in the European Union, and from the threat of the

transatlantic trade and investment partnership, the EU-US trade deal

that will open up the NHS for private health care companies from

America. What evidence do you have it'll do that? It is absolutely

clear from the very few leaks made from the proceedings in the

negotiations, that that is the ageneral daft American negotiators.

We have not signed up to that deal, yet? We haven't but it is being done

in -- that is the agenda of the American negotiators. We haven't

signed up to it. What due say an the argument around this partnership

between the EU and US many Labour and union supporters are worried

about it. We are working hard with the Labour MEPs to make sure that

public services are exempt from TITIP and our services are protected

but Alex's argument, if we believe that a Brexit vote would make our

NHS and public services safer, with the Tory Government, with probably

Boris or Michael Gove in charge, the Tory Government are already

privatised the NHS by stealth. And if we think a Brexit vote we will be

safe safer and the NHS will be safer in the Tory Government's hands

they... They will claim they are not privatising it by stealth and it was

opened up under a Labour Government initially to some sort of

competition but on Kath's broader point, why do you think the NHS

would be safer, particularly with a British gfted that could be a

Conservative Government, that you wouldn't support? Well, the NHS

isn't safe in Tory hands but of course the best way it make sure it

is not in Tory hands is to vote to come out of the European Union? Why?

They have said they'll spend more money. The Leigh campaign says

they'll spend the money that goes to the EU on the NHS? That's a fine

promise but it is a Conservative r Conservative Government with a

majority of 12, they are deeply split. If we vote to come out of the

EU, Cameron is out of office, he will be sacked by his own party and

we'll have a general election. A clear message from Labour figures

like John McDonnell are saying a Tory Brexit would impose further

austerity cuts. It would be workers who would suffer because the economy

would shrink and a loss of workers' rights, is he wrong? I think he is

wrong. The fact is austerity is the programme of the European Commission

and European Union. They have driven it relentlessly from Greece to

Portugal and every country in between. Britain is not ex-tempt

from austerity measures because we are not part of the eurozone. We

still have to be part of stability and growth agreement and follow the

recommendations from the European Commission issued every November.

Britain is facing austerity because of EU policies and directives. What

do you say? The example of Greece is clear to everybody, they screamed

austerity. The UK is the fifth largest economy until the world. So

say we can be compared with Greece is a bit silly. On austerity, it is

a political L it was the political will of the Coalition Government and

now the Tory Government to impose us a terry. Austerity doesn't go, you

know to the very richest. -- to impose austerity. It is the very

poorest in our country who have paid for us a terry. When you can give

tax cuts to the richest and take ?30 from disabled people... So what is

the EU doing? You talking here about national politics. What is your

argument for remaining in the EU to protect those people that you say

has suffered as a result of austerity? The EU needs changes and

reforming, we not saying in GMB it is perfect and we have to stay. We

have to stay in it to reform T we want a social Europe that looks

after workers, whether in the UK or Spain or Germany or anywhere else

and that looks after the most vulnerable in society. Do you think

workers, or British wages have been depressed, kept lower because of

people coming from EU countries? Well, when a business can go to

Romania or any other of the eastern European countries and advertise

jobs there, before they have been advertised in this country, then,

yes. That's why you are putting... Why do you want it stay in the EU?

We are already looking at reform. The commission have agreed to look

at the posting of workers' directive, which means that a woke

coming from another part of the EU can be paid what they would have

been paid in their own country, instead of being paid what they

should be paid in this country. We are looking for an even playing

field. Therefore, it is the exploiters we should go after, not

the people being exploited. Let's look at sterling, Alex Gordon, you

retweeted on June 11th that sterling fell by more than 1% against the

dollar as traders showed the independent poll showing country

vote towards the Leave. You are on record saying a fall in a pound

would be a good thing. Why? It is overvalued. It makes exports very

unaffordable. The fact is that the current exchange rate of ?1 is set

for the interests of the City of London and the banks that want cheap

money washing in and out. The interests of ordinary people in

Britain is not the same as the interests of the banks. We should

have healthy manufacturing sector that. Would be assisted by a fall in

the value of the pound. All right. We are going to leave it there.

Thank you both very much. Now, it probably hasn't escaped your

notice that we're in the middle And there are strict rules

for broadcasters to balance the arguments on each side

of the debate. As you saw demonstrated earlier on

in the show. So how does the BBC

going about doing that? The BBC at Westminster

on a Wednesday. It's midday and Prime Minister's

Questions. Everyone is busy organising

a disco for afterwards - you get the drinks I'll

get the crisps. No, not that kind of disco,

it is the shorthand we use to describe a discussion

on a programme, but, how do you make sure

you get the right people? In the Daily Politics' studio,

like every Wednesday, two senior MPs standing by to say

who won PMQs. We have to balance political

parties and viewpoints, particularly in the run-up

to something as important So today, for example we had

Labour's Lisa Nandy, part of the Shadow Cabinet -

firmly behind the Remain camp. And former Defence Secretary,

Liam Fox for the Conservatives. Now although he is not a Cabinet

minister, he represents the Leave We did the same last week

but in reverse. We had a Conservative

minister for Remain, Ed Vaizey and we had a Labour

leaver, Kate Hoey. Kate Hoey has popped up again around

the corner, she is discoing with Patrick McLaughlin,

the Transport Secretary The World at One, this

is Shaun Ley at Westminster. Hang on, there are hardly any

of them left any more. How come he gets to sit

at the top table? He's a former minister

from the Coalition Government. He is one of the handful of plucky

Liberal Democrat survivors Nonetheless, they are still

a presence at Westminster and still obviously a political

presence in the country. But if you were a listener

who supported the Greens or SNP, for example, you wouldn't think

that was a balanced panel. To which my response would be,

we have hadded SNP on and They are now the third largest

party at Westminster. It is absolutely right

that they should be a regular They actually are probably

on more frequently than That wouldn't have been the case

in the last Parliament. As for Ukip, they got almost

4 million votes but earned them a single MP, Douglas Carswell

and so he has made one appearance on the World At One PMQs' panel

in the past six months, although Ukipers have been

interviewed for other Back in the office, the producers

are grappling with how to fit a lot of politics

into not a lot of air time. You cannot rely on the stopwatch

rule of politics which says you give 30 seconds for him and 30

seconds for her. In 30 seconds somebody might say

all they need to say. In 30 seconds, somebody else

might barely get going. And look, even the microphones

in the studio are balanced We've had Cass the Psychic Cat,

who plumped for Remain by the way, we've had the pollsters -

they're sitting on the fence - but could it actually be

the bookmakers who can most accurately predict the result

of the EU referendum? Well, Matthew Shaddick,

who runs political betting at Ladbrokes,

is out on College Green Nice and big so I can read T what

are the odds at the moment? We are currently showing 8-13 will he main

and 5-4 Leave. Big move for Leave overnight. That implies we think

there is a 42% chance that the UK is going to vote to Leave the European

Union. As you say a major move, certainly since the last time I had

a look at the odds. What due base that prediction on? . Mostly it is

based on the amount of money taking from our customers, which has

shifted heavily towards Leave over the last few days. That chance was

only 25% on Monday and we're probably only one very good poll for

Leave away from them becoming favourites to win the vote. What do

you think is driving people to put money on Leave? The pos have been

more favourable for them this week. I guess also the Sunjic coming out

for Leave overnight -- the Sun coming out. No big surprise there.

Who is placing the bet and does it skew the predictions? I don't think

so. I think it is a wide cross section of Ladbrokes' customers and

people betting for the first time. The nearer you get to the vote, the

more we will see people who perhaps aren't that interested in politics,

but perhaps have a strong view on this vote, coming out to have a bet.

I guess those people are more likely to be on the Leave side. Let's test

your track record. How well did you do in the general election? Not too

bad on some days, on polling day, the polls were saying it would be a

dead heat between Labour and the Tories but the betting market was

saying there was an 80% chance that the Tories would be the biggest

party. I can't say we did much better than anybody else at spotting

the Tory majority. We didn't do well at that. That cost us about ?1

million. It cost you ?1 million Yes, not a good day for us. Are you a

betting man? Aim know not actually. I don't do that. Matthew... Will you

on this occasion. I'm interested in this, do you have any big bets on

either side. Don't tell me it is not our business on which side you went

on. What is your biggest bet? This week we had somebody in a shop on

Dover having ?10,000 on Leave. Numerous votes in the 10s and 20,000

in Remain. Last week Nigel Farage popped into a shot and had ?1,000.

The other question is What is the volume of money... We have run out

of time. I'm the presenter. We have run out of time. You will have to

ask that next time. And I mentioned earlier that Cass

the Psychic Cat plumped for Remain But it's since emerged

that the feline has failed at the first hurdle,

incorrectly predicting an England win in last Saturday's

match against Russia. There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, what did

European Council President Donald Tusk say Britain leaving the EU

would lead to the destruction of? c) England's chances

of winning Euro 2016. I couldn't let the England team take

my dog for a walk. They can't hang on to a lead! Boom, boom.

Oh, dear Although grandiose and alarmist, it is the destruction of

western civilisation. Do you think it might have been an everat the

same time? Just a tad. That's it for today. Thank you to

all of our guests, especially Digby for being Guest of the day. That's

it from us, the 1.00 Hello. Today we're road-testing

the BBC iPlayer Kids app.