21/07/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

More than 180,000 people have signed up to Labour in just two days,

but how many of them have joined to support Jeremy Corbyn,

Mr Corbyn has this morning launched his campaign

to remain as Labour leader, with a promise to crackdown on firms

His challenger Owen Smith appears to have a mountain to climb.

Theresa May begun talks with European leaders

about the terms of Britain's exit from the EU - yesterday she was in

Berlin with Angela Merkel, will she have a trickier time

One month on from the referendum result which stunned the world,

we'll hear from a Vote Leave campaign insider about

And as MPs pack up and leave Westminster until September,

what books will they take with them to the beach?

We'll bring you their definitive summer reading list.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

of the programme today two journalists who may look

like a highbrow pair, but really they're just

as accessible and ready for the beach as any

Think of them as the Dan Brown and James Patterson

of political journalism - only without the sales figures.

It's Steve Richards and Fraser Nelson.

So, Parliament rises for its annual summer recess today,

many MPs have already left Westminster for their constituencies

and plenty of them will be breathing a sigh of relief after a period

in politics which has been more turbulent than any in recent memory.

But while some of them will be getting a holiday, for others it's

going to be a long hot summer with plenty of hard work

For Labour members it will be an unsettled few months,

as Storm Owen Smith takes on Cyclone Jeremy Corbyn.

The two will be travelling the country, as ballot papers sweep

And the results will be announced at a special conference

Two other parties will also have leadership contests over the summer.

On the first weekend of September we will find out which

Green Party hopeful will have their time in the sun.

And next week we get the final list of Ukip leadership hopefuls,

who come mid-September, will replace the El Nino of UK

The Conservatives are experiencing a calmer front now their leadership

question is settled, or at least as calm as it gets

in the post-referendum world of politics.

Theresa May will be hoping the Trade Winds are favourable

as she grapples with preparations for the Brexit negotiations -

having committed to triggering Article 50 by the end of the year.

And she'll be hoping to avert predictions of gathering

economic grey clouds, as yesterday the Bank of England

reported many companies were adopting a "business

as usual" approach after last month's referendum result.

Well, the Prime Minister has been visiting European leaders

to discuss her approach to leaving the EU.

Today she's due to meet with President Hollande

That follows her meeting yesterday with German Chancellor,

Mrs Merkel agreed with Mrs May that the UK shouldn't

rush for the exit door, but should take its time

I want to work with Chancellor Merkel and my colleagues around

the European Council in a constructive spirit,

to make this a sensible and orderly departure.

All of us will need time to prepare for these negotiations

and the United Kingdom will not invoke Article 50

That is why I have said already this will not happen before

I understand this timescale will not please everyone but I think

it is important to provide clarity on that now.

We should strive for a solution which respects the decision

of British voters, but also respects the interests of our

Together we should maximise the opportunities for

We're joined now by the Conservative MP Mark Field.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. The last one before the recess. First

meetings, you could say always contain warm words and it seemed to

go well. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy

from now on Think everyone knows it is going to be tough. In the

Conservative Party we know that and I think that Angela Merkel's team

out in Germany are well awhich are there will be difficulties as we try

to extricate ourselves from the European Union. It was a positive

first meeting and it has been remarked by a number of political

commentator that is there are profound similarities in the

political stale of the two ladies, and I think it'll go well. It is

quite amazing, I suppose, to see two women together at the top of

politics, it isn't often that you see that. I think we will see more

of it in the months and years to come. It is a good thing, isn't it?

Well, any Scot will be well-used to seeing women at the top of the

#35r789. Full of them. Can't move without them? In Scotland, it is

leading world politics, in having women, as presiding officers and

leading parties. It may be unusual here but in Holyrood people have

been used to it for sometime. It could be perhaps, Hillary Clinton in

and perhaps, a female President of France. Well, before that happens,

Francois Hollande is still there in France. How tricky is that meeting

going to be? He is going to be frosier, isn't he? I think it will

be fine. Theresa May is an emollient politician. In contrast to Gordon

Brown, nine years ago, he was almost bereft of ideas and a spent force.

What has surprised everyone with Theresa May, she is full of ideas,

firm ideas, on what she hopes to do, for example, to encourage social

mobility which seems to have gone downhill. She's not enthralled by

the way, Blair, Brown and Cameron and Osborne were with the City and

metropolitan values. There is a real sense of mission there. But she

doesn't know what she is going to do with Brexit and that at the moment

will be the defining issue. I think you are right about that in one

sense, however it is all the more reason why she has a domestic agenda

she is also looking to put together. We don't know how long the Brexit

issue will take. Don't get me wrong, I'm in the unreal it be, it is going

to be a dark cloud with difficulties for the political class. It is all

the more reason why what has been interesting, is she hasn't defined

the early days of her Prime Ministerier by Brexit. We know by

Mrs America Mark, she said to her own Parliament, that the UK can't

cherry pick. - Mrs Merkel. And that will be the potential pit

fall. I think it will be unrealistic to think that we can cherry pick on

single market and passporting without having to give some leeway

as far as free movement is concerned. However, I think you also

have to remember there is a lot of volitility throughout Europe. We

have elections in France and Germany. The Italian banks are in

deep trouble. Actually, we have to remember we are going to be having

this negotiation over the next two or three years once Article 50 is

triggered but that's not going to be taking place in a vacuum, it will be

being taking place in a volatile situation in the rest of Europe,

there are tremendous opportunities, pro-I had vooing we diplomatically

we grasp them. How do you assess her chances of getting a deal to sell to

the British people With great difficulty. This early period

reminds me of when John Major took over, it felt like a new Government

after a traumatic period for the Conservative Party. He moved away

from the past, abolishing things like the poll tax, which was

associated with the Thatcherite passed and the way that Theresa May

has moved away from the Cameroons now. But Europe hovered for John

Major in the form of the Maastricht Treaty. And Brexit hovers for

Theresa May and it is bigger and more problematic than max trict even

though it was a nightmare for John Major. Although it feels fresh and

new and she has moved into the job with poise. This is the honeymoon

period and Brexit does pose many, many nightmarish problems for her.

Immigration will be one of them. She restated about the commitment to

bring net migration down to tens of thousands. She said it would take

sometime. A realisation that perhaps it just isn't achievable. Well, not

for the next ten years, anyway. If you look at the projections, nobody

envisaging that happening. But interestingly she says will will

control free movement rather than abolish it. This relishes the

prospect... Of of a deal being done. Jiem' snot as gloomy as stee. There

are many ways of leaving the EU. Britain voted for a way. I don't

think there are many rocks ahead of her. But you have to satisfy many of

the people who voted for Brexit and who wouldn't control of movement.

But people voted for a different range of reasons. I think the schism

could be the eurozone verses the EU I think there is an opportunity if

we go down an down the Norwegian route, the EU-light approach, we

would have a situation like the Czechs and Swedes, over the next few

years. If it is achievable, of course. Let's look at the banking

industry. There are companies like that sector that have been able to

operate across the EU as long as they have a base in the UK called

passporting that. Will not continue until a new deal is arranged for

them as well? It'll continue until we know what will happen. Truth of

the matter is obviously that will be something that will have to be

negotiated to a certain extent. I think it is true to say... Are you

worried about it? Think it is true to say that the City of Europe will

lose some of that bishops it would be naive to think some won't go to

Dublin, Frankfurt or Paris. How big a hit will it be? There are

opportunities that also arise. One of the things about the City of

London and I was saying this before the referendum it is not an Joan

shore centre for Europe it is an off-shore centre for around the

world that brings problems as well but tlurnts as a global financial

centre. You have talked about them, but we don't know how they are going

to form, fair enough. In the meantime you would expect other EU

countries to jump in there. We have heard the French Prime Minister say

- we want it build the financial capital, you remember Boris Johnson

saying to the French businesses come to London, now they will do that in

reverse. The same arguments were put is a years ago when we didn't join

the euro. And the critical mass of London is stronger against Paris or

Frankfurt since that time. I'm in the naive thinking there will not be

difficulties but I don't think it is all doom and gloom and it won't be

easy for par toys reinvent itself as a financial global cap. A how much

goodwill is there across the EU to what Britain is trying to do? I

think it is wrong to look at it with good L I agree with Mark. It'll be

fine with France tonight, in tonal atmospherics, here is a new Prime

Minister. But they will have to calculate what is in their own

self-interest, so for example, the French presidential election will

play a bigger calculation in how France plays this over the next 12

months rather than goodwill on either side. Similarly the next

German election which will be uppermost in Merkel's mind. This is

where the game of chess gets so complicated. They will have to

calculate what their electorates are thinking... Are prepared to...

Prepared to accept. On the whole issue of free, movement, for

example, the rise of Le Pen in France, may well mean the French are

happy to row in behind some sort of hybrid deal we could be talking

about come the early part of 2017. So there are opportunities, the

diplomacy element and one thing I would say which has been evident, so

many European reads such perfect English and read our primary

sources. The one thing many of our ministers have to do is not spend

their time with a mega phone saying what they are going to end up doing.

The difficulty is so many people now read the Times and Telegraph on a

daily basis... And all publications. The The contrast we have, we pick up

once a month what is happening in the economist from Swedish politics

and you what is happening in Italy cops from a diplomat. I think we

need to, as I say we have a stronger hand that we might think and need to

play the diplomatic cards carefully. Well, thank you very much.

Now it's time for our daily quiz, and it's all about former

It's been reported this morning that before last year's general election

Mr Clegg spent two days and close to ?8,000 doing something

that the party hoped would show he could be "fun".

Did he, A) Go to a theme park in a baseball cap?

C) Film his own version of a pop video?

Or D) Erect a 'Cleggstone' in his back garden?

At the end of the show Steve and Fraser

The Labour Party is gearing up to spend a second consecutive summer

While last year's was all about Jeremy Corbyn's surge

from nowhere to beat his more established rivals, this year's

looks like being a hard-fought and bitterly divisive contest

between Mr Corbyn and his challenger Owen Smith, who is backed

The election, which ends in September, is being fought

on a one-member-one-vote basis, and there's been a scramble to sign

In the past 48 hours, an extra 183,000 people have paid

?25 to become registered supporters and vote in the ballot.

That means a total of more than ?4.5 million for the party coffers.

It's not clear how many people were signing up to vote

for or against Mr Corbyn, but a spokesman for Mr Corbyn has

said it is "reasonable to assume" that the majority

of the new registrations come from supporters of the

Well, Owen Smith is holding a rally in Birmingham later today,

and this morning he was asked whether he was worried

about lots of the new registrations being from Corbyn supporters.

Well, they might be, but we don't know, do we?

Let's be blunt, we don't know how those people have joined.

I've got friends who have joined, one or two, because they want

I'm sure a couple of Jeremy's friends have joined, as well.

If they do end up being on that side, it looks pretty difficult

for you, would that end up in a split of the party?

The reason I'm running is very simply because I think the party

is in danger of splitting and if we do split the Labour Party

So that was Owen Smith, let's listen now to Jeremy Corbyn

launching his re-election campaign in London just a short while ago.

I wish they were all on board and I wish they would play a full part in

the economic debate yesterday when euro John McDonnell -- when John

McDonnell was really putting this to the government. We have a government

creating worse divisions in our country, and it is their job to get

behind the campaign against this government. This party is going

places, it is strong and capable of winning a general election, and if

I'm leader of the party I will be that Prime Minister.

We're joined now by the Labour MP Kerry McCarthy, she's supporting

Owen Smith for leader, and Barbara Ntumy from Momentum

which is an organisation supporting Jeremy Corbyn.

Barbara, what is the evidence that the majority of new registrations

are Jeremy Corbyn supporters? Momentum had a lot of people engaged

and we did a lot of recruiting of getting people to sign up for just

?25 and we are very confident, even though we don't know the numbers,

but we are confident people have joined to support Jeremy. There was

also the saving Labour campaign, people were urging people to come

together to save the Labour Party because this is absolute crisis

point as Owen said, and there were people who signed up through that,

you can't assume that the people that voted for Jeremy last time are

going to vote for him this time. I've spoken to people in my

constituency who say they realised they did the wrong thing. It is

interesting. Just one example, one of the lobby correspondents said the

latest sampling of 183,000 new registrations are 60-40 in favour of

Owen Smith. That is a surprise, but there are many people already

members, Jeremy Hunt the support of many of the members, not just the ?3

voters, and in the next week we will have Jeremy and Owen putting their

manifesto forward, and I'm slightly worried that Owen is pitching to the

left, because Jeremy has changed the debate, so people know they have got

to say the things that people can hold onto. You say you are worried,

surely that would fill you with confidence? I'm worried he is

pitching to the left even though he is not that left, his record does

not show that he has been campaigning on these issues, he

abstained on the welfare debate, you can't abstain on very crucial things

which will affect millions of people. As Secretary of State for

Work and Pensions Owen led the charge against tax credits where we

got the government to do a U-turn, the government MPs voted against it.

This is a nonsense line which is being peddled, in the same way they

tried to cast aspersions on commitment to the NHS which is free

at the point of delivery, we have got to get away from that. We need a

genuine and honest debate about these candidates and what they stand

for and what they can do and what their abilities are. It is not just

what you say, it is what you do as a politician and whether you have a

strategy for dealing with the crisis the country finds itself in. I

agree, is what you do. I find it hard to believe that loads of people

that resign from the Shadow Cabinet are now saying they tried their best

to work with him, if you look at what has unfolded, it seems half the

effort was put in and the other half was thinking of a way to get rid of

him. It was not a spontaneous thing, it was very organised. You can't

spend time saying you are trying to work hard with someone, and then

throw that away at the drop of a hat. 80% of the Parliamentary Labour

Party, that spans all the politics which exists within the

Parliamentary Labour Party, certainly. I did not think he was

doing a great job as leader and I did not support him to become leader

but I recognised he had a mandate. In my case I was disappointed with

his lack of leadership, and it was obvious he was not fully on board

with the Remain campaign. There seemed a complete lack of concern,

used the phrase, we campaigned around the country but we were

ultimately unsuccessful, and that is all he said, but everyone else said

it was devastating, so many issues we need to be addressing. We are

looking to the leader to set out what happens next. We had a PLP

hustings on Monday and Jeremy said we have two years to trigger article

50 and that brings it home. That is not even true. He does not

understand... He does not understand anything about Brexit. Labour

supporters of voted to stay, it was Ukip and the Conservative supporters

who voted to leave, you cannot blame Brexit on Jeremy Corbyn. Don't talk

over each other. I'm not blaming Jeremy Corbyn for the referendum

result, but I do think he was very lacklustre during the campaign. What

I was looking for after the referendum result, a sign that he

was bothered about it, and he did not seem bothered at all, but also

that he had a sense of where we were going to go next. He called for

article 50, only him and Nigel Farage called for it to be triggered

immediately, and that shows he did not understand what the situation

was and the importance of triggering Article 50 and at the PLP hustings

on Monday he said we have two years to trigger article 50 which is not

the case. He doesn't understand and he doesn't really care about it. To

the nature of the campaign. Jeremy Corbyn says he doesn't want the

contest to end up in the gutter. We are going to put up a poster, pitch

of Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith, in a moment, does this represent not

going to the gutter? -- a picture. Owen Smith says he was invited to a

defence event because it was a significant employer in his

constituency, but he didn't go. Is that post-affair? I did not make the

poster. -- poster fair? Jeremy Corbyn supporters have done it.

Should it be called out? Definitely, it is not accept of all, but none of

this started with Jeremy and it will not end with Jeremy. People have

gone out of their way. It is never as nasty as this. Women are attacked

on Twitter for having certain politics. You don't think that the

intimidation of women MPs that has been cited by those women

themselves, you don't think that is exaggerated? Not saying it is worse,

it is something that has always existed and we should continue to

say it is an acceptable, but I'm very concerned when the narrative is

given that this is only happening because of Jeremy and he is

instigating it when that is not necessarily true. Is that really

fair? I've been a member of the Labour Party 25 years and all of my

colleagues that have been involved, they say it has never been as nasty

as this now. Social media exaggerates it because it is easier

to attack people and you have anonymous trolls, but it feels far

more on present than anything I can remember and I feel it is stoked up,

the narrative of betrayal. Everyone who doesn't support Jeremy is a

traitor, unprincipled, has no socialist values and no place in the

Labour Party. He has encouraged it. He says he would like to reach out

to Labour MPs and he would like them to come back into the Labour fold

which is growing under him because of the increasing party membership.

He said that again this morning. He also said he doesn't expect this

loyalty from MPs if he wins again and there is a threat there that

there would be increasing cause for the selection of MPs that don't

support him. Should that happen? -- calls. They need to decide how to

hold the representative to account. It feels like people are not willing

to put differences aside to try and work together as much as possible,

and constituencies should hold the elected representative to account.

Jeremy voted against the Labour whip over 500 times, he called for John

Smith to have a leadership challenge two months after he was elected,

with 91% of the vote. Those were the things he did then. Five days after

Black Wednesday and we were ahead in the polls. It seems to be one rule

for Jeremy and one for everyone else. What will happen in the

contest? I've just read the polls. Actually, Paul has which those

figures around, it is 60-40 in favour of Jeremy Corbyn. A

significant turnaround and that confirms a poll in the times on

their front page, yesterday. We must assume at this stage Jeremy Corbyn

starts miles ahead and they are highly effective at organising these

kind of events as we know from last summer. If that proves to be the

case it raises a number of questions about what the Labour MPs are trying

to achieve through this. I've been doing a 3-part series on Corbyn's

first year and the last goes out on Monday on Radio 4 and it is clear

that there was very little coordination amongst the dissenters

after the referendum. Margaret Hodge did one thing. Hilary Benn did

something else. The Shadow Cabinet did something else. When John

McDonnell said at a rally the other day, I won't repeat it exactly, but

he said they are not very good at organising. Use the supporters, yes.

That is proving to be the case so far. -- useless. It Jeremy Corbyn

wants this as a long-term project he needs a different parliamentary

party and the Parliamentary party needs a different leader, that much

is clear. In terms of the party, the figures are astounding, in terms of

new membership, the money that will be rolling into the Labour Party for

the first time in many years, that is also pretty astounding. There's

also the massive disconnect the mechanic a movement in the way that

Jeremy Corbyn and the grassroots supporters think without the

Parliamentary party? -- massive disconnect, but can it be a

movement. Yes, it can be, the people who have just signed up, that is

more than the Tory party membership, so it is a movement. Can it be a

government? That is not the aim of Jeremy Corbyn, his aim is to capture

the Labour Party with his hard left views. It is not hard left. The

thing is, we want to form a government and Jeremy has been very

effective in opposing the Tories and their cuts and he has been very

effective on issues of social justice. Actually fund education.

Many older people have the chance to go to education for free, the cost

of rising is -- the cost of living is rising. It is enough. Things can

be better and we want things to be better and we understand you need to

be in government to do that and that is what we are doing. We will knock

on the doors, we went out on our hundreds to knock on the doors for

Sadiq Khan to be the Mayor of London, we need to stop distort the

facts, we want Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister and we want the

country to be better for everyone and not just a few people. That is

the passion of view, Jeremy Corbyn can lead a Labour government into

the government. He's not electable, he's not a future Prime Minister,

and when I go... On the Bristol MP, there are parts of Bristol where he

goes down very well, amongst the former Green voters, people who are

in organisations, but if I go out to be more traditional Labour voters,

it is hard to convince them that he could be a Prime Minister. He wants

to speak to those people, the evidence is that Ed Miliband has

lost Labour loads of support, but Jeremy said... You said it would be

a disaster when he came, but he has not lost any by-elections. Can I ask

one question regarding the rules, is it right that the Jeremy Corbyn

supporters have offered to pay ?25 for anyone to back their leader? Is

that right? It was heartbreaking when I heard that the NEC had

decided... Shore. -- that is fine. The problem is, wider working class

people have to pay so much -- wider working class people have to pay so

much to be a member of the party? Thanks for joining us.

Today marks one month since Britain voted to leave the EU -

A result that surprised the pollsters, the pundits

Recently on the show we had an 'in' campaigner

reflecting on what went wrong, and today we're going to hear

from a central figure in the Leave campaign

Here's Vote Leave's chief executive, Matthew Elliott, with his account

So, Big Ben has struck 10.00pm, and we can now start

trying to discover which side thinks it's carried the day.

At 10.00pm on 23rd June, the consensus was that Vote

A contact of mine at Number 10 texted me to say,

And even Nigel Farage was predicting a Remain victory.

But after our final conference call with Boris Johnson, Michael Gove,

and Dominic Cummings, our campaign director,

Gisela Stuart and I were still upbeat.

People were talking that we'd lost, the evidence wasn't there.

And, of course, as the evening went by, it became clearer and clearer

that we were winning but I did not accept it until David Dimbleby said,

"We can now officially declare that Vote Leave has won."

I kept saying, "We need two speeches."

The UK has voted to leave the European Union.

I kept saying, "We need two speeches."

But this was not really reciprocated.

The mood was - we only need a speech to concede defeat gracefully,

but you and I didn't quite see it that way.

Getting to that point was a long road.

Five years ago I ran the "No to AV" referendum campaign.

I took on this challenge, the test run for a possible EU referendum.

We manageded to turn public opinion from being 2-1 in favour

of electoral reform, to being 2-1 against.

Alongside me at No to AV was Peter Crudder.

When I joined No to AV it was a bit political.

It needed that injection of business knowledge.

I think the same applied to Vote Leave.

What I brought was this business acumen.

Having the funding and the right campaign team in place

for Vote Leave was essential but we had three big

We were taking on the establishment, we were fighting Ukip.

And we had to overcome the natural bias in a referendum

To take on the establishment, we needed to recruit big

We needed to show swing voters that serious people from politics,

business and other walks of life, backed voting Leave.

If you look back to 1975, one of the reasons why the Leave

campaign then was so unsuccessful was because leading political

figures were seen as very much outliers, in some cases extremists.

So to demonstrate there were senior, centrist, moderate figures

campaigning to leave the European Union, I hope

made a real contribution to the result of the referendum.

But at the same time as taking on the establishment,

we were also fighting Ukip and Nigel Farage.

We knew that swing voters didn't want to feel they were voting

Resisting the overtures from Ukip, to create a properly

cross-party campaign, was probably the toughest

aspect of the referendum for the campaign team.

But at one point, the group closest to Ukip - Leave.EU -

sent out a statement to MPs and the media, saying that

Dominic Cummings and I couldn't run a sweet shop and Nigel Farage

appeared on the Daily Politics saying both of us should be sacked.

This was a massively stressful period and the pressure

A week before the referendum, we were riding high.

Vote Leave had punctured a hole in project fear by organising 60 MPs

to say they would vote against George Osborne's Brexit

budget and we had the wind in our sails but then Nigel Farage

unveiled the most controversial poster of the referendum.

The Breaking Point image was damaging enough

but in the context of Jo Cox's murder, it threatened

Thankfully it was clear to voters that Ukip was not

The final challenge we faced was to overcome the natural

status quo bias of any referendum campaign.

As was the case with the Alternative Vote,

or Scottish independence, the change side often loses

because people's natural caution kicks in.

We had to show how there was no status quo.

We highlighted the risk of Remain and we showed how Leave

Getting to what people feel, rather than what they say,

is where the future of research is and this is what we did

and the one key thing that emerged on this was the strength

of emotional connectivity with that "take control" argument.

So that single message was actually a decision of genius, in many ways,

because it was exactly what people could understand.

It was something that people just got.

It cut through straightaway to so many people.

At Vote Leave we were challenged for telling voters that the UK

is billed ?350 million each week for our membership of the EU.

It is a legitimate figure, it is entirely right.

We emblazoned this figure on our bus and on our literature and our

spokespeople repeated it again and again.

In direct comparison to the arguments for Remain,

around the perceived impact on the economy in a head-to-head

question, if you like, the ?350 million question won every

At heart, I'm a policy wonk before I'm a referendum campaigner.

At Vote Leave we probably achieved the biggest policy change, ever,

A month on, the repercussions from Vote leave victories have

The economic scares that people predicted haven't materialised.

British politics has been turned upside down.

And even the European Union is showing signs of reform.

As Liam Fox wrote on Vote Leave's white board on referendum night,

Is it true there was only one speech written for night? I was with Gisela

Stuart had seemed astounded by the are you, delighted but astounded and

the only speech that had been written was the one to condition

seed defeat. I think the most difficult speech to make was to

concede defeat. A victory speech was easier. Was there only one? There

was one but about midnight she started skripling away on her

victory acceptance speech. You say you were always confident but not

everyone in Vote Leave was so sure? From February, once we saw the deal

and terrain, we felt sure if it got to the final stage of the

referendum, it was still 50-50, still in contention, then we could

get across the line and win. We knew we had - our voters were more

enthusiastic and we felt our ground game was better. On the ground game.

Let's talk about a that ?350 #34i8 yob fichlingt you say you make no

aapproximately joy for t but you promised something you couldn't

deliver and you knew you couldn't deliver ?350 million being spent on

the NHS. So you lied, effectively. I disagree. A referendum campaign is

very different to an election, in the sense that... You don't have to

at the time truth... We are a campaign team, we are campaigning

for a certain result and we hoped that the Government would use that

money for the NHS. You didn't say, that you said "Lets avenue give our

NHS the ?350 million the EU takes every week." That was disputed that

?3 #r50 million was sent to the EU, in fact it was disproved but then to

promise that amount, which people distanced themselves from

immediately afterwards s dishonest. The key point was, it could have

been delivered by the Government, we would have liked it could have been

delivered by the Government but Vote leave didn't become the Government

afterwards. What about the in-fighting? You talked about that

and said it was difficult to deal with. Was it something that really

undermined the Vote Leave campaign? The key point was, we had the vision

of a cross-party business-led campaign involving senior people

from business, politics, the military other walks of life. It was

the best way of conadvicing swing voters it was a moderate, sensible,

mainstream thing to do, to vote Leave. It was why it was important

that we weren't dominated by Ukip and had a separate independent

campaign. You were on the Leave side, Fraser, were you surprised?

Yes, really surprised. I don't know any journalist o actually who

predicted that Leave would win. The polls repeatedly told us otherwise,

we knew not to trust them from last time around but you would think they

would have their house in order. The momentum seemed to be going with the

Government's side. Pretty much every single member of the establishment,

on behalf of the status quoe, the Government, blink and all economists

and you had a rag tag bag of insurgents on the other side. So, I

didn't know anybody who predicted a Brexit strike but one arrived in

what was certainly the most extraordinary political victory in

our living memory. It feels like a lifetime now since the vote, or it

does to us anyway. Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, key personalities in

that Leave campaign. They won the war, if you like, but they haven't

been anywhere in the piece? Well, Boris is Foreign Secretary. But one

of the extraordinary things about politics is what follow a tumultuous

event, like you have just brilliantly described, is never

logical. So you have a Remain Prime Minister in place, albeit one that

kept a very low-profile during the referendum. Michael Gove, nowhere to

be seen. If you like, Boris Johnson, it was a surprise even to him, I

think in the end. What, becoming Foreign Secretary? He had two

surprises, Michael Gove suddenly standing, an extraordinary

Shakespearean drama and then returning when many people were

saying, well he is going back to writing books. That was a major

weakness, I think in the campaign, that was there no follow-through.

The lack of organisation was jaw-dropping, staggering and I

think, indefensible. On that, looking ahead, what about a group

being formed to hold the Brexit department to account? To watch for

any, as you would no doubt see t backsliding? I think there is a need

for a group to work with the Government. You have groups like the

Centre for Social Justice who work closely with Iain Duncan Smith or

the networks that worked with Michael Gove when he was at the

Department for Education so there might be a need for a group to

expand on the idea. Do you think there should be one? I think so.

Would you be part of that? We will have to wait and see. This is what

is being talked about now, is holding Government it account.

Absolutely, the important thing to my mind, state of the EU immigrants,

throughout the campaign, everybody said there should be no question

that EU immigrants should stay here, no question of repatriation,

everyone said that, and Theresa May has put the skids under three

million nationals living in Britain. They are being sent letters up in

Scotland saying, you are OK for now. The lack of precision in the

immediate aftermath. I don't blame the Brexiteers, they had to win a

campaign and they won T I don't blame what you did in the NHS. All

is fair in a xavenlt I blame David Cameron for offering this in the

first place, as a binary referendum, on in or out, where no-ones with a

under any pressure to explain what out would mean in any great deat the

same time. You had a campaign to win, but that's a different

objective, which you did brilliantly and that is the problem with

referendums. I understand why he felt he had to call t but they are

dangerous devices because you then, once it is called, you just focus on

how you win it. And the threshold... And now face the consequences and

no-one is entirely sure what it is going to mean. Did you enjoy it? I

loved T However difficult it was. Would you have said that if you had

lost? Of it a tough year, it was a really tough year, but it feels a

great sense of achievement. Yes, because you won. I think it would

have been much tougher if we had lost. Well, you didn't so thank you

very much. Now, let's turn to the situation, in

Turkey. Following last Friday's failed army

coup, President Erdogan has declared a state of emergency in the country

for three months, giving him More than 50,000 state employees

have been rounded up, sacked or suspended in recent days,

as the government says it is attempting to root out

the "virus" behind the coup. Well let's speak now

to our correspondent Nick, have there been any further

developments? Well, the people are really trying to digest, now, the

news of this state of emergency. The President announced it late last

night, just before midnight. We know it'll last for three months. Under

the constitution it could have lasted significance months and some

of his critics are clutching at straws really, saying perhaps this

is not as bad as it could have been. Anyway, Turkey, since the coup, only

five or six days ago, has been living under a kind of de facto

state of emergency anyway, so some people, even critics of the

government are saying - better to know where we stand than to be in

this sort of legal quagmire. People, however, are also concerned, what

will happen now? The huge numbers you referred to, more than 50,000

people suspended from their jobs. Teachers called back from their

summer holidays to be told they are now under investigation. More than

6,000 arrests in the army, 100 top generals, more than one in four of

the top brass of the military here all under arrest. So a lot of

concern in society. A lot of worry but also a sense that this Turkey

just survived a coup. A military attacks on Parliament and police

headquarters, so there is also some understanding that clear, firm

measures are needed at a time like this. Thank you very much.

We're joined now by the Liberal Democrat peer Meral Hussein -

she sits on the all-party parliamentary group for Turkey.

It sounds devastating in terms of the scale of the state of emergency.

The state of emergency was five days late. As the president said last

night, Francis had a state of emergency since last November. --

France has had. People are still reeling from the repercussions of

the attempted coup and people in Turkey have memories of the last

four attempted coups and so they feel very much in favour of the

president, and the majority, that includes Kurds and secular wrists.

Looking at it very simply, it is the Muslims are more in favour of what

the President is saying, it has been said. People are coming together to

give support to the button which is unprecedented. Amnesty International

says there's a crackdown of exceptional proportions, do you

think they are wrong? It is exceptional, but we don't know... Is

it justified? We don't know. The people feel there is a conspiracy,

people in all sections of public life embedded who are sympathisers

who have had a hand in this coup, and the president has said he's

going to this out. The majority of people think this is a good thing

but it seems he is going way too far and we don't know what is going to

come out the other end, what kind of society is going to emerge. The

question is, has he always wanted to do this? We know from following his

government in Turkey, there have already been moves to clamp down on

certain freedoms in the press, for example. He's now doing what he

wants. He is, it is true that he was clamping down on freedom of the

media and journalists, but there was a strong indication that he was

moving against certain sections of the military and the other

establishment before the coup and people in Turkey I've spoken to have

said to me this coup was pre-empting what they thought he might have

done. Is this the beginning of the end of democratic rule in Turkey? It

looks as if he is taking this opportunity to clamp-down on away

which is staggering in scale -- a way. He's really going for the

academic and universities, teachers, everybody. An extraordinary

reaction. You are better placed to make judgments on internal targets

politics, but it seems the assessment early on was it was a

clumsy ill judged coup but it has been treated as if it was the most

extraordinary threat to this government. Clearly by implication,

people were involved in every walk of Turkish society, if he is going

to justify this level of clamp-down, but I think he's using it as a

excuse to seize control of every element of Turkish society. These

people involved in the coup, beyond the military, what should the EU do

question up we are doing this deal which has been successful in terms

of stemming the flow of migrants through grace -- what should the EU

do? We have given them billions in aid, to Turkey. The EU was pretty

useless before and it will be so now. Right now Germany, Italy, they

are terrified, so they are in a weak position if Erdogan loses, I cannot

see any punishment working at the moment. That is the problem with the

EU, it is great as a free-trade bloc, but as a political entity,

useless. What do you think is going to happen? I think it will go

further and I agree with Steve, he's Bubba be taking this as an

opportunity to get firmer control -- he's probably taking this as an

opportunity. The EU have lost any influence they have had, and the

fact the United Kingdom, after what happened in the Brexit campaign, in

which Turkey was the fight, because of the poster and all the rest of it

-- in which Turkey was vilified. I was talking to friends last night,

they say the majority of the Turkish public and they think the UK and the

United States are involved in a conspiracy to shut down their

democracy, they really believe this. They were slow to condemn the coup

and they don't seem to be taking it as serious way in terms of the

United States wanting a next edition, so there are many aspects

to this, layer upon layer. -- wanting an extradition. Thanks for

joining us. With Parliament rising MPs are

leaving Westminster until September. They'll be able to concentrate

on work in their constituencies, fight the odd leadership battle,

and in some cases even manage So what will they be reading

if they do make it as a far Come aboard London's floating book

shop for a selection from the MPs' Want to know more

about the Labour leader? How about Comrade Corbyn by former

lobby journalist Rosa Prince. Everyone is desperate for insight

into the new Prime Minister. Our Joe is a biography of the former

Conservative mayor of Birmingham in the 19th century,

Joseph Chamberlain. Written by Theresa May's chief

of staff Nick Timothy. We've recently increased our stock

of ex-prime ministers by one and here's a trio of prime

ministerial biographies. First of all this one of Tony Blair

by the investigative journalist Tom Bower,

called Broken Vows. And then there is this book

about Harold Wilson called What a nice way to celebrate 100

years since he was born. And finally this book about Disraeli

called The Novel Politician. If you want the insider account

of the last government, how about Coalition by the former

Liberal Democrat If you want to get really insidery,

how about the Black Door? It is all about how prime ministers

have interacted with 100 years since the Easter

uprising in Ireland. If you want to know about that,

Fearghal McGarry has drawn on 1700 If you want to visit the battlefield

of the Somme, Major and Mrs Holt have written

the definitive guide of where to go. If you fancy something

historical but a bit lighter, All about the epic task of keeping

Britain fed in the Second World War. I love visiting friends

in their posh mansions, and now you can read about it

in a book called The Long weekend: Life in the English Country

House Between The Wars. And if you can't bear the idea

of being away from Westminster, don't worry, you could always

read Mr Barry's War, all about rebuilding parliament

after it burnt down in 1834, or my colleague Ben Wright's book

about politics and alcohol. And Keith Simpson joins

us now to tell us more He's moved a branch of Waterstones

into the studio, have you read all of them? No, but a fair number. What

recommendations? I would start, not necessarily on the beach, but Nick

Timothy's Our Joe, Joseph Chamberlain's Conservative legacy,

Nick Timothy wrote this for the Conservative history group and he is

now the joint Chief of staff with Theresa May. You can see parts of

this went into her speech at Birmingham and then her speech

outside number ten. You will see a template for government under

Theresa May? I think you will. It is about what Joseph chamber and was

doing in Birmingham, to alleviate the lot of the people at the bottom

of the social ladder -- Joseph Chamberlain was doing in Birmingham.

You can see this has influenced her. It is also short, it would be a good

one to start with. There are some pictures. At the lighter end, a

wonderful book called the long weekend, life in the end this

country house between the wars and he combines the stories of amazingly

eccentric people. One of these country houses, they needed to put

wiring and the owner refused to have the floor pulled up, and they got

round it by putting a dead rabbit at one end and a ferret and they tied

to the ferret a string and the wire, and I'm not making that up. I

imagine that was very smelly. Looking at the list, as I did. It is

quite heavy. Even by your standards, quite a heavy list of books in terms

of content. It is serious, part and parcel of the time we are living in,

we are in a serious mood and Theresa May is a very serious politician and

Jeremy Corbyn is, as well. If someone else would like to produce

another list. The Lady Whipp said she was going to be choose a list of

chick lit but she has not got round to it. No one is going to compete

against you. What Angel fancy? The Nick Timothy Burke. -- what takes

your fancy? There are very few speeches from sick terry macro, but

we know Nick Timothy is probably more influential than any adviser in

the direction of government because she trusts so few people -- there

are very few speeches from Theresa May. What about for you Steve? The

Joe Chamberlain one and maybe the Harold Wilson won, because Harold

Wilson won a referendum on Europe in 1975 and he knew how to win. Maybe

you should have read that before the referendum. Maybe David Cameron

should. He knew how to win elections and keep his party at gully -- keep

his party united, skills which Theresa May and whoever leads Labour

will require. Any laughs? Yes, this one. I have stolen a review copy

from the Spectator. If you are a Scottish right-winger like me, this

is wonderful. That might be a niche market. There are a few others. All

reading this on the beach in the summer. It was funny comedy, sage

and with Ken Clarke. -- it was funny, the conversation with Ken

Clarke. I have put some books on the list, including Ken Clarke's memoirs

which is coming out in time for the party conference, and Denis

Healey's, he has a broad hinterland, you have him coming out, Ed Balls's

memoir and a view of politics, just in time for the Labour Party. The

title of his book? Putting the boot in. LAUGHTER

Actually, I can't remember. If I was a Labour member, there is a

biography of Clement Attlee coming out in time for the Labour Party

conference. There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was what did Nick Clegg

spend two says and nearly ?8,000 doing to show that he could be fun

during the last election campaign? A) Go to a theme park

in a baseball cap C) Film his own version

of a pop video Or D) Erect a 'Cleggstone'

in his back garden. It has got to be the pop video. It

is. But we have not seen it, of course.

That's all for today, and that's all from the Daily

We'll be back when Parliament returns on Monday 5th September -