09/01/2017 Daily Politics


09/01/2017

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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May fleshes out her vision for a new "shared society"

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in the UK, with a pledge to end the stigma of mental illness.

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The Prime Minister also says she wants the best possible deal

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for trading with the EU's single market and says she's ruling

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nothing in or out before starting Brexit talks.

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After the Red Cross warns that hospitals in England are facing

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a "humanitarian crisis", Labour call on the Government

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to pump an extra ?700 million into the NHS this winter.

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We'll discuss whether extra cash is the answer.

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And we'll hear from the Ukip leader Paul Nuttall,

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on his ambition to be the "guard dogs of Brexit", and bring back

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, the Labour MP Lucy Powell and

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In the last hour, Theresa May has been making the first of a series

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of speeches which are expected to flesh out the Prime Minister's

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Yesterday Mrs May talked about her desire for a "shared society",

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where government takes a more active role to help people who face

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The PM this morning announced several new measures to help people

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For too long, mental illness has been something of a hidden

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injustice in our country, shrouded in a completely

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unacceptable stigma and dangerously disregarded as a secondary issue

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Left unaddressed, it destroys lives, separates people from each other,

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and deepens the divisions within our society.

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Changing this goes right to the heart of our humanity,

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to the heart of the kind of country we are, the attitudes we hold

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I'm joined now by our political correspondent, Vicki Young.

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Can you elaborate on what the "shared society" means? The emphasis

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has been on mental health today but no detailed new policies. It's the

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broader vision that is interesting. Theresa May calling it a new

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philosophy. I think the idea is that because Brexit will of course

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dominate her premiership, she is here in the first big speech of the

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New Year, trying to set out what she feels about other things, too. In

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the "shared society" I think she is outlining that people feel we have a

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divided nation, that the government often isn't working for them, people

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feel. She wants to change all that. She talks about not just helping the

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very poorest. We've heard before about the "Just about managing",

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that's where her emphasis will be. The question is always how do you do

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this. It's all very well saying we are going to be more interventionist

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and the state will step up and be more effective, but how can they

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actually do this? How do you make people feel part of this community,

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and make sure you help them, when frankly there isn't a lot of money

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around. How then does she seek to transform the provision for mental

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health? She is talking very much about best practice. Some would say

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that by making mental health of this speech, in itself it does raise the

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profile. We heard before from ministers about parity, about people

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looking at physical health and thinking the same about mental

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health. How you do that is difficult. She's talked about young

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people, schools, making sure teachers are aware and able to

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educate children, to make sure it's not just about going into hospital.

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Many will say, without new funding, the fact that a lot of health care

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money has been used for physical health because hospitals feel they

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are so short of cash, that is a major problem and something she will

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have to address, and something the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt will

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talk about today. He is making a statement this afternoon. Thank you.

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We did ask for an interview with someone from the government

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on Theresa May's speech, but no minister was available.

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Nadhim Zahawi, do we think that provision for mental health should

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be treated and put on an equal footing with physical disorders?

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That is the commitment that we have made, to bring it to parity. What is

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important about today is the Prime Minister, the big boss of the

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country, sets out her priorities. I think when the boss does that, you

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tend to get the machine moving behind it. There will be more

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details from Jeremy Hunt on this. What is really encouraging is

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support for schools. Most mental health sets in below the age of 18.

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If you can catch it early on it makes a huge difference to the

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outcomes. Is support, I think the budget is around ?70 million, of

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on-line help. Rather than going to see their GP, people can get online

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help. There is a series of measures. A couple of years ago we clearly set

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out that we didn't want people with mental health problems ending up in

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police cells. That has been cut by 50%. It's the prioritisation that

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actually makes a difference, but it's a long haul. Let me manage

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expectations. It is a long haul. The direction of travel is we will get

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to parity. I don't know about your statistic about the number of people

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ending up in police cells has been cut by 50%. It has. If you want to

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put it on parity, surely you have to give more funding than ?67 million?

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If you look at the overall funding to the NHS... Let's look at the

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commitment to mental health. Our position set up by Jeremy and the

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government, by the way, David Cameron's government set this out in

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the first place and Theresa May is following through. Is this rhetoric

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or is this going to be a proper commitment that will transform the

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provision of mental health? Our school is really the right place to

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actually start looking seriously at mental health issues? Ten teachers

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have enough to do? They certainly do. Of course it's the right place

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to start but you've got to see this in context. This feels like another

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fact platitude from the Prime Minister, that bears no fixation in

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reality. Why not? Nadhim Zahawi is saying by stating it, by making it a

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priority, you may find that good practice follows. Let's look at two

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cases in point. Over the last six years we've seen huge cuts to mental

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health services. We've got over 6000 fewer mental health nurses today

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than we did six years ago. This is quite a big cut to the mental health

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budget. The second issue about schools, the context of what is

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happening in schools today is that over the course of this Parliament,

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every school in the country has got to find 8% worth of cuts to their

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school budgets. There is a fantastic mental health charity, The Place To

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Be, that does exactly this kind of support. That's the first thing

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headteachers are telling me they've got to cut. They've got to find

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these cuts to their school. You can have these big speeches but if they

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aren't backed up by actual money, actual policy, and seeing the

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context in which our public health and teachers are operating in, they

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will mean nothing. Training teachers in mental health first aid and

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crisis cafes which is one of the ideas being put forward, is that a

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like-for-like substitute for properly trained mental health

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nurses that have been cut? Of course not. I don't accept that mental

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health nurses have been cut, overall... That's a king 's fund

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figure. It's unfortunate that you are turning this into a political

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issue. It's a factual issue. Have the number of mental health nurses

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being cut or not? I don't believe they have. They increase the number

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of nurses and doctors. We will check that during the programme. It's a

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figure from The King's Fund. If the. Is it good enough to have crisis

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cafes for people to go to if they have mental health problems? I think

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it is good that we have people in school who have the ability to

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identify early on if children are depressed or have mental health

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issues. It's good to have crisis cafes. I have similar provision in

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my constituency and it works really well, because people actually want

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an informal way to talk about this stuff. It's exactly what's going.

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Theresa May is raising its profile. She's put her hand up and said let's

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do this on a cross-party basis. What you get today is party politics

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being played with the health service which I think is completely wrong.

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It was ever thus on both sides. I applaud any attempt to raise the

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issue of mental health. I said that at the beginning. I'm sorry, you

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have to accept what is actually happening on the ground. In my

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constituency, Moss side, areas of the country where you've got 50% of

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children with child poverty, many mental health issues across all

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different backgrounds, webby headteachers are telling me they are

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having to cut initiatives like The Place To Be, which is exactly what

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Theresa May is talking about. I will support cross-party but it's got to

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be rooted in reality and backed up by actual plans and money to deliver

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it. Let's look more broadly at what Theresa May has been talking about.

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This idea of a "shared society", looking after people who are just

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about managing. And talking about the role of the state. Issue right

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to call for more state intervention as a Tory Prime Minister to help

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people who have, in her words, been failed by the market? She is at the

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Luke Wright. In many areas, including housing, where it is right

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to intervene when actually the amount of housing hasn't been

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delivered. The market can't meet the needs of a modern economy in every

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way? The government has a place in the market intervene where it needs

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to intervene. I applaud her for doing that. If you remember her

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roads is every decision she will bake, she will make with those

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people just managing -- her words. Ed Miliband was right when he talked

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about the squeezed middle. That there is a group of people who have

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been failed by successive governments and who are struggling

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and she's moving into what we would call social Democratic territory,

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politically. She's moving into one nation Conservative territory. She's

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moving there because Labour aren't, they vacated. Do you accept they

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vacated territory that should be your party's? I don't. She's in

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government and we aren't so her ability to do and say things is

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greater than ours. I think Ed Miliband in the last parliament, his

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one nation agenda, his agenda around... Although he failed to win

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the election on that agenda. He did but these are exactly the arguments

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he was making, that markets in and of themselves don't work, they need

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intervention as well. He led that way. Sometimes history affords you

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more credit than you get at the time. It's something we've got to

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build on over the course of this Parliament. I think the

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Conservatives will be found out, as they are already found out by many

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people, because it isn't being backed up by what's happening on the

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ground. Although the polls don't demonstrate that. There is a bigger

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problem here, you see these big speeches and spins put on this new

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agenda of "shared society" which is pretty meaningless. It's not just

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about money but it's about actual delivery on the ground. We will see

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how the year unfolds. The question for today is all about

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David Cameron's breakfast habits. According to the Conservative MP,

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Jake Berry, who somehow knows about this, the former

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Prime Minister had a rather a) Freshly-squeezed orange

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juice with no bits. b) Having the fat

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removed from his bacon. Or d) having the crusts

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cut off his toast. I have all of those things done at

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breakfast time, don't you?! At the end of the show,

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we'll see if Nadhim and Lucy can Theresa May started

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the new political year with a set-piece TV interview

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yesterday, during which she was asked about the Government's

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strategy for the upcoming The Prime Minister argued that,

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post-Brexit, the UK will be able to control immigration,

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and have good trading So, what do we know

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about the government's plans? The PM hinted the UK is on course

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to leave both the single market and the customs union,

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saying the UK could not keep "bits The single market allows 28

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countries in Europe to trade with each other free of tariffs

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under a common set of rules. It operates on the basis of "four

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freedoms", the free movement from one member country to another

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of goods, people, While the EU's single market

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allows countries to trade freely with one another,

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the customs union imposes external However, members of

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the customs union can't Leaving the single market

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and the customs union would mean the UK needed a new trade deal

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with the EU. The question is how

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long that might take. Before he resigned last week,

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the UK's ambassador to the EU Sir Ivan Rogers was criticised

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for suggesting other EU leaders think the process

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will take a decade. But the Prime Minister has said it

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should be possible to conclude a trade deal with the bloc

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within two years, in parallel Meanwhile, the Government has been

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working on plans for free trade International Trade Secretary Liam

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Fox has said his department is looking in detail at plans

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for new deals with more than 50 countries including

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Brazil, China and India. There are seven "working

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groups" in total. Yesterday, Foreign Secretary Boris

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Johnson was in New York to meet several of Donald Trump's key

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advisers, with the prospect of a post-Brexit trade deal

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between the US and UK one And I'm joined now by the trade

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lawyer Shanker Singham. He's chair of a new commission

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on trade at the Legatum Institute, a thinktank that looks at economic

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and political freedom. welcome to the programme. Assuming

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that the UK does leave the single market, how easy will it be to

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negotiate a trade deal with the EU after Brexit? I think what you're

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going to see is tricking of Article 50 and withdraw. It will take a

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two-year process from March, assuming we trigger it in March this

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year. I think how long it takes to do trade deals depends on the

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baggage the countries have and the integrated nature of their

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relationship. Are ballpark guess? How long? Probably longer than a

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two-year period we have the triggering of Article 50 and the

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conclusion of the withdrawal agreement by don't think it will

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take a lot longer than that. Two years after that would be a

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reasonable amount of time. Would that be too long, four years from

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triggering of Article 50? You have got to step back and look at what

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the Prime Minister said, we've got to get the best deal possible for

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making sure that we control the borders, and for business, services

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and manufacturing. For them to have unfettered access to that market. To

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sit here and speculate as to... It's like sending someone to negotiate

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with one arm tied behind their back by saying you have to do it within

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two years. They have to strike the best deal. The timing is crucial

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because if, in two years' time, there is a limit of course

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negotiation with the EU, post-Article 50, there is not a

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trade deal negotiated, then the UK presumably in your mind falls to the

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trade union organisation tariffs. Timing is not crucial because we

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have to take a step back and look at what is the goal because if you

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don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. I think the

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government knows where it's going and Theresa May 's outline speech

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did that. What changed in her material yesterday? The vision. That

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vision is essentially free trade agreements with other countries,

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agreements with developing countries that require a certain amount of

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agricultural openers, and our own domestic productivity and consumer

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welfare agenda. In order to do that, not to ask yourself, to get to that

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point, what do I need to do now? What should I not do and there are

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three fundamental pillars of Brexit which outlining yesterday and they

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must not be eroded because if you do, you won't get to your ultimate

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goal. They are? We can't be part of a customs union because in order to

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negotiate these agreements with other countries we have to have

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control of our own tariffs. You are assuming we be out in the customs

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union and the single market? The single market is different. What you

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said about the 80% of our economy being services is very important

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because we have unique economy and you can't negotiate services unless

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you are able to negotiate your own domestic regulation which is why we

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can't be a member of the single market. That doesn't mean we don't

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have access to the EEA. We would seek to negotiate maximum access

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that we can possibly get that will be done a trade agreement and

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ultimately, but also in a series of interim measures at the end of the

:19:32.:19:35.

withdrawal agreement where Europe has a big interest in getting those

:19:36.:19:38.

interim measures in place than we do. Do you agree with those three

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pillars, coming out of the single market, out of the customs union,

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and it will enable the UK to negotiate free-trade deals with

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non-EU countries which we couldn't do if you were part of the customs

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union? I don't agree at all and I don't think it's what actually was

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the argument being put down at the time of the Brexit about either. But

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now, listening to Theresa May? It looks like that is what her position

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is but I'm not sure how other ministers will square that with the

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likes of Nissan who they've already made promises to about still being

:20:13.:20:19.

in the single market or having maximum access to the single market.

:20:20.:20:23.

You don't think we could get tariff free access? The issue with a single

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market is not just about the tariff free, but it's to ensure that there

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is a level playing field in terms of the regulations around the

:20:35.:20:37.

manufacture of those goods and services. That's a key issue both

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for our exporters and manufacturers in the UK, but also a key issue for

:20:43.:20:46.

other European countries looking to export to the UK, so I don't

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understand how car manufacturing and other big industries like that can

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continue to operate without those. How likely do you think it is that

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we will end up contributing to the EU budget for access to the single

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market? David Davis hinted that were still on the table, didn't rule it

:21:07.:21:11.

out full is up to you think we will contribute to it? Just to answer

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that question, the customs clearance point, the harmonisation is of

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regulations, that's something we will have anyway because we will

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conform our regulations. Customs clearance is something a lot of

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countries have one not members of the EU. I don't think paying for

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access to the single market is a good president to set. It's not

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something you do in a trade agreement. It has to stand or fall

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on its own merits so Nissan and the car companies who want access to the

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European market has got to make commercial sense, and it eminently

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does make that. If Norway and Switzerland pay into the EU budget,

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why would we not have to do the same? Those are two different

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examples. Norway is a member of the single market and Switzerland is not

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as many deals with the EU. We may pay for certain things, it's

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possible to pay for things... So we would contribute? It's a matter for

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negotiation of the government. The issue is, paying for access to the

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single market does not make sense in a commercial setting because what

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makes sense is having access to the single market, not only your

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suppliers, and your supply chains need access, but European supply

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chain to me that as well so it's very likely at the end of the

:22:32.:22:35.

withdrawal process there will be a series of narrowly defined interim

:22:36.:22:38.

measures including customs clearance,... So you see an interim

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deal question mark otherwise there would be a cliff edge? The UK

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economy would fall off? I don't think it's a cliff edge but a series

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of issues. In a negotiations... Is that semantics? Not really. You have

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to look at where the problems are. There are very specific areas where,

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if we come out of financial services, you want to have some sort

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of new mutual recognition and conformity assessment because there

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is not a mechanism for third country passport ring. That makes people

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feel uncertain. You want to explain that early on. European interests

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are as great if not greater. Of course, that's what members of the

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government argue, people like Nadhim. If we were no longer members

:23:27.:23:32.

of the single market had access, which body would arbitrate in the

:23:33.:23:37.

case of trade disputes? In any trade agreement, the trade agreement sets

:23:38.:23:40.

up a dispute settlement mechanism within the framework. It would be an

:23:41.:23:45.

EU UK trade agreement and the speed to be arbitrated by that. There

:23:46.:23:50.

would no longer be the European Court of Justice. No, that is what

:23:51.:23:54.

we rely on now to ensure Europe complies with its own... The

:23:55.:23:58.

mechanism would be costly for British business if they are reliant

:23:59.:24:04.

constantly on special tribunal to settle disputes, wouldn't it? Not at

:24:05.:24:07.

all, it happens in international trade all the time. There are

:24:08.:24:12.

hundreds of trade agreement who have dispute mechanisms and arbitration

:24:13.:24:15.

mechanisms and it's the normal way business is conducted in itself.

:24:16.:24:21.

It's about arbitrating between Europe and the UK and not simply to

:24:22.:24:28.

look at European law and regulation. If we look to years ahead and I know

:24:29.:24:32.

you say you don't want to speculate but the has to be some planning and

:24:33.:24:35.

I forwarded spoken on this programme to the High Commission of New

:24:36.:24:40.

Zealand, before Christmas, who would like to do a free-trade deal with

:24:41.:24:43.

the UK but were not going to talk about it until the deal has been

:24:44.:24:46.

done between the UK and the EU. That will be quite a long way down the

:24:47.:24:51.

road. Do you accept that? Lots of trade companies want to do deals

:24:52.:24:56.

with the UK. But not until after the deal. Fair enough. But a lot of

:24:57.:25:02.

preparatory work is needed. He said he would like to see the colour of

:25:03.:25:07.

the money of the deal between the UK and the EU because otherwise it

:25:08.:25:11.

would affect his membership. Of course, but what is interesting to

:25:12.:25:16.

be just heard about the position the UK, today BMW announced some of its

:25:17.:25:20.

members. The Chief Executive was asked, if the fourth largest market,

:25:21.:25:27.

yet there is no idea of them falling manufacturing out of UK because

:25:28.:25:31.

we're such an important market for companies like BMW, so let's not

:25:32.:25:35.

talk ourselves down. What the message should be is we will

:25:36.:25:40.

negotiate in good faith, we expect the EU to negotiate in good faith,

:25:41.:25:44.

which I think they will. All the noises I've heard... But it could

:25:45.:25:48.

take ten years to do the deal. Long time. Canada, that deal took a long

:25:49.:25:55.

time. You can do trade deals very quickly. But the EU and Canada was

:25:56.:26:01.

seven years. That had a lot of baggage in terms of agriculture.

:26:02.:26:08.

There's a lot of agricultural interests. Doing a deal with them?

:26:09.:26:12.

The integrated nature of our manufacturing and we are in the same

:26:13.:26:16.

thing is different for every other country. You Bob at the accepted

:26:17.:26:22.

could take a while and your example of agriculture, is there a case

:26:23.:26:26.

where, in the end, the UK will swap subsidies from the EU that back up

:26:27.:26:32.

the agricultural industry here, for us subsidising our own agriculture

:26:33.:26:37.

or should be cast farmers offer want competitive? The third pillar I

:26:38.:26:43.

mentioned, vital for Brexit, one of them is we have to be more open on

:26:44.:26:46.

agriculture to get these deals with other countries. It would be a price

:26:47.:26:52.

worth paying? It does not mean you cut farmers. It does mean there are

:26:53.:26:58.

certain things we can do. Products we don't produce, whether is no

:26:59.:27:04.

direct competitive nurse, there's no reason to have tariffs on that, we

:27:05.:27:08.

can move to a direct transfer payment for farmers, a lot we can do

:27:09.:27:12.

in terms of environment. But we would subsidise the industry? We

:27:13.:27:17.

would pay something. At least until 2020. Beyond that, we don't know.

:27:18.:27:24.

There will be more focused direct payments. About New Zealand, the New

:27:25.:27:29.

Zealand High Commissioner is negotiating so naturally they would

:27:30.:27:32.

say we want to negotiate with the UK. Fair enough. What they are

:27:33.:27:38.

looking at is to see are you going to be out of a customs union to

:27:39.:27:44.

negotiate a deal? This is not a negotiation in a vacuum. There's

:27:45.:27:47.

many other deals they can do with the EU. We don't know. They may yet

:27:48.:27:53.

tell us in the coming months by have to finish there. Thank you very

:27:54.:27:54.

much. Now, new year, new broom

:27:55.:27:56.

at the top of Ukip. Paul Nuttall became the party's

:27:57.:27:58.

third leader of the year last November, so now he's had Christmas

:27:59.:28:01.

to have a mull over things, and he's decided to stick with the job,

:28:02.:28:04.

how is he preparing the party In a moment we'll be asking him,

:28:05.:28:07.

but before that, let's remind MUSIC: "A Little Bit

:28:08.:28:11.

Independent" by Fats Waller. # A little bit independent

:28:12.:28:16.

with your smile # A little bit independent

:28:17.:28:18.

in your style...# We have achieved so much,

:28:19.:28:20.

in such little time. We forced the referendum,

:28:21.:28:24.

and you helped to win it. # A little bit

:28:25.:28:28.

independent in your walk # A little bit independent

:28:29.:28:35.

in your talk...# Well, after just 18 days in charge,

:28:36.:28:42.

it's been reported tonight that the Ukip leader Diane James

:28:43.:28:45.

is set to stand down. I'm standing in this election

:28:46.:28:48.

as the unity candidate, the candidate who wants to let

:28:49.:28:51.

bygones be bygones. I'm going to break in,

:28:52.:28:56.

because Ukip has a new leader. They've already announced it,

:28:57.:28:58.

its second new leader My call for unity has now

:28:59.:29:00.

received the biggest mandate Welcome to The Daily Politics. You

:29:01.:29:33.

said you want Ukip to be the guard dogs of Brexit, how do you plan on

:29:34.:29:41.

stopping any black -- backsliding from Theresa May given that you have

:29:42.:29:46.

only one MP and a diminishing team of NEPs? Ukip has to remain an

:29:47.:29:57.

electorally viable force. Let's be clear, what people voted for on June

:29:58.:30:02.

23 was to control our own borders, to control our own finances, and to

:30:03.:30:07.

be able to sign free trade deals all over the globe. If we stay in the

:30:08.:30:10.

single market we can do none of those things. How would you stop her

:30:11.:30:15.

backsliding? She may not but how will you stop her if you think she

:30:16.:30:20.

is? We forced David Cameron into having the referendum in the first

:30:21.:30:23.

place by being strong electorally. We intend to ensure Theresa May

:30:24.:30:27.

doesn't backslide by doing the same thing. It's important I came into

:30:28.:30:32.

this role, that's why I decided to stand, because Ukip is more

:30:33.:30:36.

important than ever before. Do you worry that forever being on the back

:30:37.:30:39.

of Theresa May and her government over Brexit, that your pressure,

:30:40.:30:43.

trying to outflank on the right, we'll end up with the government

:30:44.:30:47.

getting a worse deal for the UK? I think they'll get the best deal.

:30:48.:30:51.

Britain will be able to look into this century confident, able to sign

:30:52.:30:59.

its own trade deals, not paying a membership fee to the European Union

:31:00.:31:04.

and not having to comply with EU regulations. I think that means a

:31:05.:31:10.

strong, confident and democratic UK. Do you agree it was Ukip who forced

:31:11.:31:13.

David Cameron to call the referendum? Of course not. Paul

:31:14.:31:18.

knows the Conservative Party has a long history of opposing the single

:31:19.:31:22.

currency. Talking about William Hague and us being locked in a

:31:23.:31:28.

burning building without a key to get out of it. Paul has a problem of

:31:29.:31:37.

unity. Diane James lasted five minutes. Steven Woolfe got whacked

:31:38.:31:41.

in more than one way! Neither of them are now in the party. Your

:31:42.:31:44.

biggest owner doesn't think any of the candidates were up to scratch,

:31:45.:31:48.

and Nigel Farage is still headline news! Your leadership could be

:31:49.:31:54.

undermined by the fact the party is falling apart at the seams. It's not

:31:55.:31:58.

falling apart. Since I've taken over we've gone up in the polls,

:31:59.:32:02.

membership has risen for the first time in a year and we finished

:32:03.:32:06.

second in a by-election. The party is coming together now. The problem

:32:07.:32:11.

we have in Ukip is this, the designation process for the

:32:12.:32:15.

referendum basically created a cancer in the party. It split the

:32:16.:32:19.

party in two. So no further defections? To ask there may well

:32:20.:32:26.

be. From Ukip to the Conservative Party? You're confident about that?

:32:27.:32:32.

Absolutely. Who's your leader in the group in the Welsh assembly? Neil

:32:33.:32:39.

Hamilton. Even though Nathan Gill was appointed? He is not a member of

:32:40.:32:45.

the assembly so he can't be. Would it be a failure of your leadership

:32:46.:32:50.

if anyone else defects from Ukip? I would be amazed... But would it be a

:32:51.:32:54.

failure of your leadership? It would be a failure of unity and I would be

:32:55.:32:59.

very disappointed if people leave the party. We've put a smile back on

:33:00.:33:03.

peoples faces. Myself and my deputy are changing the way this party

:33:04.:33:08.

behaves, and forward to a successful 2017. After the referendum there

:33:09.:33:12.

seemed to be a cancer in the party, to use your words. There seem to be

:33:13.:33:18.

infighting as the party fought it out. That leads people to believe

:33:19.:33:22.

Ukip can no longer be a single issue party. Let's look at some of the

:33:23.:33:25.

ideas you've had, no doubt you've been thinking about it over

:33:26.:33:29.

Christmas, a distinctive change in Ukip policy. What are your

:33:30.:33:34.

distinctive ideas? If you look at our last manifesto in 2015, it was

:33:35.:33:39.

regarded by member vulnerable many of the political commentary to be

:33:40.:33:43.

the best manifesto on offer. The first time our manifesto was fully

:33:44.:33:50.

costed an economic think tank. We will be fleshing out policies within

:33:51.:33:53.

the next couple of months. I've only been in the job six. Our spring

:33:54.:33:59.

conference is on February the 16th and 17th in Bolton, there will be

:34:00.:34:03.

big policy announcements then. You said you want to challenge Labour in

:34:04.:34:06.

its northern strongholds, what are your policies to challenge Labour?

:34:07.:34:11.

What are you going to say on workers' rights? Firstly, workers'

:34:12.:34:16.

rights will be protected. We are going to flesh out these policies

:34:17.:34:20.

and make a big announcement at Spring conference. We will continue

:34:21.:34:24.

to talk about the issues that matter the working class people. Which are?

:34:25.:34:29.

Ultimately what they are. Its immigration, they want a fair but

:34:30.:34:33.

firm immigration policy, because wages have been driven down by

:34:34.:34:37.

uncontrolled and unfettered immigration. They are law and order.

:34:38.:34:41.

They feel as though there is no deterrent in society. Because

:34:42.:34:44.

British working class people are the most likely to be the victims of

:34:45.:34:48.

crime, it's about putting British people first whether that's in the

:34:49.:34:53.

job market... Do you support the rail union strikes at the moment? I

:34:54.:34:58.

think trade unions have done a great job... Do you support the strikes?

:34:59.:35:02.

There's different strikes going on, Jo. The RMT strikes, if you are

:35:03.:35:09.

supporting workers' rights and you want to challenge Labour in the

:35:10.:35:12.

northern strongholds, do you support the strikes? I don't agree with the

:35:13.:35:16.

strike on Southern Rail. You've ready got the union leader who

:35:17.:35:21.

agreed that trains, without ticket collectors, were not a problem,

:35:22.:35:25.

before Christmas and now suddenly he thinks they are. Do you still

:35:26.:35:31.

support the triple lock on pensions? Yes I do. Would you like to see

:35:32.:35:35.

increased spending on capital projects? Yes I would. How much? I'm

:35:36.:35:41.

not going to give you a figure right now. There will be big announcements

:35:42.:35:45.

at the spring conference. But we will continue to do is we will

:35:46.:35:48.

continue to talk about the things that matter to working people and we

:35:49.:35:52.

will replace the Labour Party, I believe, as the patriotic voice of

:35:53.:35:56.

working people. What do you say to that? I think you've got a long way

:35:57.:36:01.

to go. What will become clear, and this is a challenge for the Labour

:36:02.:36:04.

Party to make sure we filled the space as much, but as Brexit becomes

:36:05.:36:09.

a reality, and many of people in Manchester or the North of England

:36:10.:36:13.

who voted for Britain to leave the EU, will still feel disaffected,

:36:14.:36:19.

even once we have left the European Union... Will they look to Ukip

:36:20.:36:23.

rather than Labour? I don't think so. Many of the concerns they have

:36:24.:36:27.

about their changing communities, loss of control, private rented

:36:28.:36:32.

sector, taking hold, the loss of the high streets, Ukip with their

:36:33.:36:37.

free-market agenda, to privatise the NHS, will do nothing to secure those

:36:38.:36:44.

communities. I think Paul, I wish him well, he's a good Northerner,

:36:45.:36:50.

but I think he will fall foul of the fact he's got nothing to say to

:36:51.:36:54.

communities like mine in Manchester, once we get over this Brexit issue.

:36:55.:37:00.

Respond to that. I think we will... What's your benchmark going to be?

:37:01.:37:05.

You've got a Labour Party led by a guy who seems to be obsessed with

:37:06.:37:09.

the issues that swirl around the Islington dinner party, climate

:37:10.:37:13.

change, fair trade, Palestine and all that stuff. These don't matter

:37:14.:37:18.

to people in your constituency or my constituency. Does he have a point?

:37:19.:37:24.

In my constituency... There's definitely some truth to that,

:37:25.:37:28.

that's part of the reason we're having the conversations within the

:37:29.:37:32.

Labour Party that we are having. My constituency seat a strong labour

:37:33.:37:36.

council in Manchester, Renaissance in parts of the North, but they want

:37:37.:37:40.

to see that spreading further. They want to see their communities

:37:41.:37:44.

flourishing once again and not in decline. I think strong Labour

:37:45.:37:49.

voices in the North will offer that not Paul. There are big elections

:37:50.:37:54.

this year in Europe, will you be campaigning alongside Marine Le Pen?

:37:55.:37:58.

We will not be involved in any foreign elections. There will be no

:37:59.:38:01.

campaigning alongside Marine Le Pen? She has said there's not a heads

:38:02.:38:05.

breadth of difference between what you thinks and what the National

:38:06.:38:09.

front things, let's be truthful. You're not going to go there? I'm

:38:10.:38:15.

focused on council elections in this country. What about your MEPs? They

:38:16.:38:24.

won't be there. They won't have any campaigning alongside? It's not

:38:25.:38:28.

going to happen. So you are going to tell them? Yes. Thank you very much.

:38:29.:38:32.

So Westminster gets back down to business

:38:33.:38:34.

Let's take a look at what's in store this week.

:38:35.:38:37.

Parliament goes back to work today after the Christmas recess break

:38:38.:38:40.

and it is expected that Jeremy Hunt will make a statement on the NHS

:38:41.:38:44.

and the pressure on services over the winter this afternoon.

:38:45.:38:46.

London Underground is currently holding a 24-hour strike

:38:47.:38:48.

and tomorrow thousands of British Airways cabin crew

:38:49.:38:50.

will begin a two-day walk-out, while Southern Rail network users

:38:51.:38:52.

will suffer disruptions due to industrial action on Tuesday,

:38:53.:38:55.

Tuesday marks the end of the ten-week public consultation

:38:56.:39:03.

period on whether to go ahead with part two of the Leveson Inquiry

:39:04.:39:06.

and investigate specific phone-hacking allegations

:39:07.:39:07.

at News International and other media organisations.

:39:08.:39:18.

On Wednesday, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will face off

:39:19.:39:20.

The Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, will give evidence

:39:21.:39:25.

to the Treasury Select Committee on Thursday afternoon.

:39:26.:39:26.

And on Saturday, Jeremy Corbyn will deliver a speech

:39:27.:39:29.

And we're joined now by the Sunday Express'

:39:30.:39:45.

Ben Glaze of the Daily Mirror from a rather grey College Green.

:39:46.:39:49.

Sadly our other guest has been caught up in the tube strike, she is

:39:50.:39:54.

not alone. Jeremy Hunt's statement in the Commons this afternoon on the

:39:55.:39:59.

NHS, what can we expect? He's going to come under some love calls to put

:40:00.:40:04.

more cash into the NHS. We had the warning from the British Red Cross

:40:05.:40:08.

that the NHS is facing a humanitarian crisis. It's quite

:40:09.:40:11.

colourful language, there have been lots of delays in A, 140 casualty

:40:12.:40:19.

departments. Close at certain points over December. Jeremy Hunt will be

:40:20.:40:24.

confronted with that sort of detail and opposition MPs are likely to

:40:25.:40:27.

call on him to put more money into the NHS. He's going to tell them

:40:28.:40:33.

that the NHS asked for ?8 billion and the government is putting in ?10

:40:34.:40:37.

billion. That figure has come in for a lot of criticism, particularly

:40:38.:40:40.

from the Commons health select committee who say the figure is more

:40:41.:40:45.

like ?6 billion. Of which ?3.5 billion has come from other budgets.

:40:46.:40:52.

What about pressure on Chris Grayling? We've been talking about

:40:53.:40:57.

strikes on the London Underground, Southern Rail and British Airways,

:40:58.:41:00.

how much pressure is he an do? It doesn't look good, a wave of

:41:01.:41:05.

transport strikes, it's like back to the bad old days. The one he is

:41:06.:41:09.

vulnerable on is the strike on Southern Rail. That is going to ramp

:41:10.:41:14.

up calls for the government to renationalise the railways

:41:15.:41:16.

generally, but particularly with Southern. There have been problems

:41:17.:41:21.

on Southern for several years, the industrial action this week began

:41:22.:41:25.

about a year ago. The service on that line has been bad for many

:41:26.:41:30.

years. Each time the unions go out on strike, the public see that as a

:41:31.:41:35.

battle between the workers and the company. It ramps up the calls for

:41:36.:41:40.

that line to be taken back into public ownership. What about Jeremy

:41:41.:41:44.

Corbyn's relaunch? We heard about it before Christmas and there are

:41:45.:41:48.

always warnings about explicitly saying you're going to relaunch your

:41:49.:41:52.

leadership campaign. What are we expecting in his speech tomorrow?

:41:53.:41:59.

It's in the Thurrock in Essex, a big Ukip area. He is likely to talk

:42:00.:42:03.

about immigration. It's a bit of a vulnerable area of the Jeremy Corbyn

:42:04.:42:08.

because he and Diane Abbott don't want any curbs on free movement.

:42:09.:42:12.

Lots of Labour MPs, particularly those in northern areas and the

:42:13.:42:16.

Midlands, they realise that unlimited migration is an issue for

:42:17.:42:21.

their constituents, and they want to see the party hierarchy move on

:42:22.:42:27.

this. We don't think Jeremy Corbyn is likely to heed that, he's going

:42:28.:42:32.

to stick to his guns on not curbing freedom of movement. This is all

:42:33.:42:36.

part of a relaunch, he's going to try and take on this Donald Trump

:42:37.:42:40.

mantle of presenting himself as a populist. For those of us who are

:42:41.:42:47.

going to be told this is "Corbyn unspun" we've spent 16 months

:42:48.:42:51.

following him, he's not been spun very well in those 16 months. Thank

:42:52.:42:55.

you for standing out in the rain. On that point, an immigration, are you

:42:56.:43:01.

with the Labour MPs who say there should be curbs on immigration?

:43:02.:43:05.

There two issues, how do we challenge the government right now

:43:06.:43:11.

to get the best possible deal in these negotiations? It's clear the

:43:12.:43:15.

vote on the 23rd of June, people were saying they do want to end

:43:16.:43:20.

freedom of movement. That has to be part of our negotiations now, we

:43:21.:43:24.

should be clear about that and make it clear... Is the Labour Party

:43:25.:43:28.

being clear at the moment? Tom Watson says the party isn't clear. I

:43:29.:43:32.

think what he said was the government weren't being clear so

:43:33.:43:35.

it's hard to oppose them. The second issue for all of us as political

:43:36.:43:46.

parties, is going into the next general election, the Brexit deal

:43:47.:43:48.

will already have been done or close to being done at that point, and the

:43:49.:43:51.

question is, Wilbur Labour Party have a commitment at that election

:43:52.:43:53.

to rejoin the European movement and rejoin free movement, or will we

:43:54.:43:57.

have a commitment to stick with the deal that's been done? The status

:43:58.:44:03.

quo as we operate in now has gone. My position would be, at that

:44:04.:44:07.

election, that we wouldn't be saying we'll bring back free movement as it

:44:08.:44:09.

would be. Let's leave it there. The Israeli ambassador in London has

:44:10.:44:13.

apologised after an official at the embassy was secretly filmed

:44:14.:44:15.

saying he wanted to "take down" some British MPs including

:44:16.:44:19.

the Foreign Office Minister, Shai Masot, a senior political

:44:20.:44:20.

officer at the embassy, made the remarks to Maria Strizzolo,

:44:21.:44:23.

a former aide to Education Minister Robert Halfon,

:44:24.:44:26.

during footage filmed in a London restaurant by an

:44:27.:44:28.

undercover reporter. We've been joined by Marcus Dysch,

:44:29.:44:30.

political editor at Welcome to the programme. Labour

:44:31.:45:11.

have said this is improper interference in our democratic

:45:12.:45:14.

politics. In other words, it goes beyond the mildly embarrassing

:45:15.:45:19.

scenario for the embassy. It's more than mildly embarrassing for the

:45:20.:45:24.

embassy for that we shouldn't get too carried away. I've met Shai

:45:25.:45:30.

Masot and Maria Strizzolo, and as good at their jobs as they were,

:45:31.:45:34.

given that they are both now out of work, I think we should be wary of

:45:35.:45:41.

over breaking exactly what's gone on here. They are two pretty junior

:45:42.:45:44.

staff members. Particularly Shai Masot at the embassy. He's not

:45:45.:45:49.

lobbying the Prime Minister or something. These are two young

:45:50.:45:54.

political hopefuls, diplomatic hopefuls, trying to impress each

:45:55.:45:58.

other. I'm not sure there's too much to it. Does this mean Labour should

:45:59.:46:03.

say that there's been political interference? It's a very serious

:46:04.:46:06.

incident. These are serious things to say. It seems action has been

:46:07.:46:14.

taken swiftly and they are junior members of the team, so as the

:46:15.:46:20.

official opposition, it is right for us to ask those questions. It was an

:46:21.:46:27.

informal enquiry Emily asked for. Ask the questions, make sure that

:46:28.:46:31.

this is not something that goes deeper, it's not part of a cultural

:46:32.:46:34.

issue or anything like that within the way the institution operates and

:46:35.:46:39.

deals with it in that way. What evidence has there been of improper

:46:40.:46:43.

interference by Israelis on government policy? Look, this is a

:46:44.:46:49.

conversation in a restaurant, an informal conversation. I would hope

:46:50.:46:56.

if you see me gossiping with my friends... Why, what are you

:46:57.:47:05.

saying?! Don't tempt us! I do think it was a very serious thing to be

:47:06.:47:12.

discussing like that, and if it was myself on the end of that

:47:13.:47:16.

conversation, I would be rightly very angry and want to know, not

:47:17.:47:21.

just with the individuals themselves not have been dealt with the

:47:22.:47:24.

leadership in the organisation made sure this wasn't a wider problem.

:47:25.:47:28.

What was your response when he saw that clip, talking about Sir Alan

:47:29.:47:34.

Duncan? I think it was serious enough for both of the individuals

:47:35.:47:38.

to resign and the other's career has been cut short in the UK. There were

:47:39.:47:46.

apologies right away. We should send condolences to the state of Israel

:47:47.:47:50.

for the terrorist attack which occurred in the last 48 hours. This

:47:51.:47:55.

is an important ally to the UK. As has already been said, if the

:47:56.:48:00.

ambassador has come out so clearly and quickly to apologise to Sir

:48:01.:48:06.

Alan, and the Foreign Secretary, this thing is a storm in a teacup.

:48:07.:48:12.

So you don't think there should be an enquiry? Into what? A strong ally

:48:13.:48:20.

like Israel is not conducting any covert operation to do anything.

:48:21.:48:27.

These are relatively junior people in the civil service but also in the

:48:28.:48:33.

Israeli embassy. Immediately, they said this is really wrong, quite

:48:34.:48:40.

rightly apologised, and they both said it was a gossip conversation

:48:41.:48:44.

over a glass of wine. Let's get these things in perspective. You

:48:45.:48:50.

said it was standard behaviour, but embarrassing, around Whitehall and

:48:51.:48:53.

the embassy circuit. Is this the sort of thing that goes on? I'm not

:48:54.:49:02.

sure I put that strongly. People suggested on Twitter this was an

:49:03.:49:06.

assassination attempt, to assassinate Sir Alan Duncan, and

:49:07.:49:09.

that's getting things completely out of perspective. Do people talk about

:49:10.:49:15.

tackling ministers and so on, yes. But did it reveal thinking within

:49:16.:49:22.

the embassy? He may have been a junior member of the team, but

:49:23.:49:27.

doesn't reveal a strain of thinking within the Israeli government that

:49:28.:49:30.

could be reflected at a higher level? Whatever he says publicly, is

:49:31.:49:36.

not going to reveal what goes on. I don't know exactly what the thinking

:49:37.:49:41.

is in the Israeli government. The British and Israeli governments are

:49:42.:49:46.

cooperating on a very high level, counterterrorism and cyber security

:49:47.:49:49.

and pharmaceuticals and NHS and all these different things. Are their

:49:50.:49:55.

British politicians the Israeli government don't agree with, yes, of

:49:56.:49:59.

course. Sir Alan Duncan has been a thorn in the side of the Israeli

:50:00.:50:02.

government for many years about settlements. Were they rather he

:50:03.:50:05.

wasn't in the Foreign Office, perhaps. Chatting about it over

:50:06.:50:10.

dinner in a Kensington restaurant, doesn't add up to anything? I doubt

:50:11.:50:16.

it. Be careful where you go for dinner. Thank you very much.

:50:17.:50:19.

The NHS is facing a humanitarian crisis this winter

:50:20.:50:21.

A third of hospital trusts in England warned they needed action

:50:22.:50:25.

to cope with patient numbers last month and over the weekend

:50:26.:50:27.

Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn took to the airwaves to demand

:50:28.:50:30.

Prime Minister Theresa May appear before MPs to explain how she plans

:50:31.:50:33.

This morning, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt responded by saying

:50:34.:50:36.

improvements are needed, but that that if we make it just

:50:37.:50:39.

He's due to make a statement this afternoon.

:50:40.:50:43.

Well, one person who believes even more radical changes are needed

:50:44.:50:48.

to improve the NHS is the director of the Reform thinktank,

:50:49.:50:52.

Over Christmas, Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron joined the long

:50:53.:51:09.

list of politicians wanting to spend billions more on the NHS.

:51:10.:51:19.

That is exactly the wrong prescription for the NHS.

:51:20.:51:23.

A revolution in health care practice and technology

:51:24.:51:28.

which is going to transform the service and help

:51:29.:51:30.

This is the office of Babylon, one of the world's leading

:51:31.:51:41.

This isn't Silicon Valley in California.

:51:42.:51:45.

The Babylon team runs an app which is currently used by 300,000

:51:46.:51:52.

people in the UK and which the NHS itself is rolling out

:51:53.:51:56.

to a million more people in London later this month.

:51:57.:52:01.

The app can monitor a person's vital signs, blood pressure,

:52:02.:52:04.

These developers are learning how to use the data to predict

:52:05.:52:10.

With these ideas, the NHS can prevent ill-health

:52:11.:52:15.

This team are experts in artificial intelligence.

:52:16.:52:20.

Users of the app enter their symptoms.

:52:21.:52:27.

The app then tells the patient whether the problem can be cared

:52:28.:52:30.

for at home or whether it needs medical attention either

:52:31.:52:32.

This team can also organise face-to-face appointments with a GP

:52:33.:52:36.

over video with an average waiting time of only 46 minutes

:52:37.:52:42.

Better healthcare is also better value for money.

:52:43.:52:57.

If we prevent ill-health, if we treat it quicker,

:52:58.:52:59.

if we make it much easier to see the doctor, the whole process

:53:00.:53:03.

is cheaper and delivers better care for patients.

:53:04.:53:08.

Every political party wants to improve the NHS.

:53:09.:53:11.

The way to do it is through innovation and new ideas.

:53:12.:53:14.

Simply pouring in more money is not the answer.

:53:15.:53:19.

You say the NHS doesn't need more money, yet the NHS Trust finished

:53:20.:53:32.

2015-16 with a deficit of nearly ?2.5 billion. The NHS had Simon

:53:33.:53:38.

Stephens at the case for an urgent cash injection into social care was

:53:39.:53:43.

unarguable. It needs more money. What the NHS needs is changed. Whole

:53:44.:53:48.

new way of doing business. You referred to the Red Cross early on

:53:49.:53:53.

in this programme. To go into A hospitals is to see a service under

:53:54.:54:00.

real strain but that is due to the way the service works, it encourages

:54:01.:54:06.

patients into hospitals rather than to GPs and other areas of the health

:54:07.:54:10.

service. In other words, it's making poor use of the money it gets and it

:54:11.:54:14.

needs to work differently. The partition is not saying it's just

:54:15.:54:21.

poor use of money, but emergency rooms hospitals are in an acute

:54:22.:54:26.

state of distress due to chronic underfunding. So not just recent

:54:27.:54:31.

funding but chronic. Are you saying the NHS wouldn't benefit from having

:54:32.:54:36.

more money? No, what I'm saying is, and I think Jeremy had would say

:54:37.:54:41.

this this afternoon, the NHS has agreed with the government to do

:54:42.:54:44.

what we have needed to do for years, a thorough review, get people who

:54:45.:54:52.

are going to hospital unnecessarily out-of-hospital, stronger primary

:54:53.:54:55.

care, a better use of technology, that the change needed. If the NHS

:54:56.:55:01.

hears it getting a windfall, it will not feel the need for change, it

:55:02.:55:06.

won't act on it, it will put off the change and that will be a big

:55:07.:55:11.

mistake. Do you agree that given more money just won't make the

:55:12.:55:15.

reforms? No, we are talking about different things. My husband is head

:55:16.:55:20.

of dark apartment in the A -- head of Department. Of course, we

:55:21.:55:28.

have got to make sure more money is put into prevention. That are

:55:29.:55:32.

critical issue. Social care in particular but also in health care,

:55:33.:55:39.

mental health care, or early years, and so on. All the money is always

:55:40.:55:43.

geared up to the acute care people need and they know when they go into

:55:44.:55:48.

A they get to see a high-level doctor and all the diagnostics. But

:55:49.:55:51.

the government has absolutely slashed and burned all these

:55:52.:55:56.

preventative measures so social care has gone to the bone, early years,

:55:57.:56:03.

Sure Start, helping families when they first have children, mental

:56:04.:56:06.

health services, so that's why the pressure is so much on, so we need

:56:07.:56:10.

money in those preventative services to make that innovation. Earlier we

:56:11.:56:15.

were talking about the level and number of mental health nurses.

:56:16.:56:23.

While there were 45,380 more mental health nurses working in England in

:56:24.:56:31.

2010, they were just 38,000 in July 2016. A fall of 6610 mental health

:56:32.:56:37.

nurses. You accept there has been a cat? The government has deprived

:56:38.:56:43.

preventative care in medicine and funds it needs and that's why we

:56:44.:56:48.

have a crisis, do you agree? No, I will tell you why because there's so

:56:49.:56:52.

many issues here. Simon Stephens is brought in by the Labour government,

:56:53.:56:59.

and they said I need the money to deliver the five-year plan and we

:57:00.:57:02.

gave him more than that. So the budget now was 98 billion, and 2020

:57:03.:57:08.

budget is 120 billion full stop that's what's going into the NHS.

:57:09.:57:14.

You are conflating two things in coming up with a wrong answer. Yes,

:57:15.:57:18.

of course we have to deliver the funding but also have good

:57:19.:57:22.

leadership. But social care provision at one end. On social care

:57:23.:57:28.

with pop one money into it. No, you haven't. Actually, we could use the

:57:29.:57:36.

money quicker now to help. Let's be clear, councils make that decision.

:57:37.:57:41.

You say more money has been put into social care provision that councils

:57:42.:57:46.

will say about their budgets cut. You're talking about the last year.

:57:47.:57:50.

It's a very important point, when you say they are putting more money

:57:51.:57:55.

in, you're comparing this year to last year. When I say there's huge

:57:56.:57:58.

cuts come and comparing it to six years ago, a huge cat, which has now

:57:59.:58:03.

gone up slightly in the last 12 months. That's why my husband will

:58:04.:58:10.

tell you everybody turning up at A should be cared for at home. Glenn

:58:11.:58:14.

Burley is doing a fantastic job, a brand-new hospital in Stratford

:58:15.:58:20.

because a really good leadership, so leadership matters. The reform

:58:21.:58:26.

programme will make a massive difference. If we don't play

:58:27.:58:32.

politics,... Thank you, you got seven seconds to come the answer to

:58:33.:58:37.

the quiz. What is his icky habit? It is cutting the crusts on his toast.

:58:38.:58:40.

Thank you very much. Thanks to Lucy, Nadhim

:58:41.:58:43.

and all my guests. The One O'Clock News is starting

:58:44.:58:46.

over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon

:58:47.:58:48.

tomorrow with all the big told through recordings

:58:49.:58:51.

he made over decades. Troubled, tragic,

:58:52.:59:07.

utterly compelling. Everybody's got a story to tell,

:59:08.:59:12.

something they're hiding.

:59:13.:59:17.

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