20/12/2016 Daily Politics


20/12/2016

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LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:37.

Terror on the streets of Berlin as a lorry ploughs

:00:38.:00:40.

12 people are dead and many more seriously injured.

:00:41.:00:46.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel says it will be "particularly sickening"

:00:47.:00:49.

if the attack is proven to have been carried out by a refugee.

:00:50.:00:55.

Meanwhile in the Turkish capital Ankara, the Russian ambassador

:00:56.:00:58.

is shot dead by a policeman, apparently in protest at Russia's

:00:59.:01:01.

We speak to our security correspondent.

:01:02.:01:08.

Following a major riot at Birmingham prison,

:01:09.:01:10.

the Justice Secretary admits that solving problems in England's jails

:01:11.:01:13.

The Shadow Justice Secretary says the Government has "lost control".

:01:14.:01:20.

And, 2016 was quite a year for political news.

:01:21.:01:26.

And with us for the whole of the programme today are Guardian

:01:27.:01:42.

columnist Zoe Williams and the former editor

:01:43.:01:44.

of The Sun Kelvin MacKenzie - welcome to both of you.

:01:45.:01:47.

Now, let's start with those two major stories from last night -

:01:48.:01:51.

the shooting of the Russian ambassador to Turkey, and a major

:01:52.:01:54.

12 people were killed and nearly 50 injured

:01:55.:02:01.

when a lorry ploughed into a Christmas market

:02:02.:02:03.

German police have said it is a "probable terrorist

:02:04.:02:09.

He is said to be a Pakistani asylum seeker who entered

:02:10.:02:15.

Reports this morning suggest special forces have stormed a hangar

:02:16.:02:21.

at Berlin's Tempelhof Airport, where they believed

:02:22.:02:23.

the suspect had been living in a shelter before the attack.

:02:24.:02:26.

Let's talk to our correspondent, Damien McGuinness, in Berlin.

:02:27.:02:34.

Damian, give us the latest that you have on this attack. We've just had

:02:35.:02:42.

a statement from the interior minister here in Germany, Thomas de

:02:43.:02:46.

Maiziere, who has given us more details of the alleged attacker. He

:02:47.:02:50.

is a 23-year-old Pakistani citizen who came to Germany and was

:02:51.:02:54.

registered as crossing the border into Germany in December 2015, the

:02:55.:03:00.

31st of December. That was just after the high point of those

:03:01.:03:03.

migrants who came into the country last year. He then was registered in

:03:04.:03:09.

Berlin as requested asylum, but police say he did not finish the

:03:10.:03:16.

request process. So he was never actually accepted as an asylum

:03:17.:03:23.

seeker, let alone as a refugee. He then seemed to go off the radar.

:03:24.:03:26.

Police say even though they knew who this man was, we don't know what his

:03:27.:03:31.

name was because apparently it seems he changed his name many times. So

:03:32.:03:34.

the details about him are still very unclear. What the interior minister

:03:35.:03:39.

has just said, it's quite clear it was an attack. Each stopped short of

:03:40.:03:44.

saying it was a terror attack. He was asked that question a few

:03:45.:03:47.

minutes ago and he phrased that sentence very clearly because he

:03:48.:03:51.

said there is no evidence so far that so-called Islamic State is

:03:52.:03:56.

behind it. He's not ruling it out, of course, but he's waiting to find

:03:57.:03:59.

out more because of course this only happened last night and there's

:04:00.:04:03.

still a lot of confusion about what the cause was. But what we do know

:04:04.:04:08.

really is that Berlin and Germany is in shock. Now people are really

:04:09.:04:12.

trying to get to grips with what to do next because this of course is

:04:13.:04:14.

supposed to be a happy, festive season. There have been calls to

:04:15.:04:19.

close down the Christmas markets. The interior minister was clear in

:04:20.:04:22.

saying we need to carry on living our life and not by Dan to pressure

:04:23.:04:26.

from people who might want to change the lifestyle. -- and not bow down

:04:27.:04:32.

to pressure. What about Angela Merkel, she has given a brief

:04:33.:04:35.

statement in a press conference. There will be pressure on her

:04:36.:04:38.

because of the open door policy towards refugees. What she said was

:04:39.:04:42.

she was shocked and saddened by this event, but that it would have been,

:04:43.:04:49.

it would be particularly sickening if the perpetrator does to not be an

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asylum seeker. Someone who she put it has come to Germany looking for

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help. On the one hand it with the Mac a slap in the face for that sort

:04:57.:04:59.

of generous humanitarian gesture that so many Germans held out to

:05:00.:05:03.

migrants arriving here. But on the other hand it could be really bad

:05:04.:05:07.

news for her because of course that policy of letting in so many

:05:08.:05:11.

migrants and refugees last year and the beginning of this year was

:05:12.:05:16.

controversial in Germany. It's in the country. Half the country

:05:17.:05:20.

supported her, but the other half did so it's really divided Germany

:05:21.:05:23.

down the middle. The problem is now but we're still unclear exactly what

:05:24.:05:28.

the motivation of the attack was. But already some of Mrs Merkel's

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most ferocious critics on this issue have blamed her for the attack,

:05:35.:05:38.

effectively, in particularly the new anti-migrant alternative for Germany

:05:39.:05:41.

party. One of their leaders posted a very controversial tweet saying that

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Merkel was responsible for these deaths. You've been an ambassador

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for trying to score political points on the back of this tragedy. -- he

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has been lambasted. Now is being heavily refugee policy has to be

:05:58.:06:02.

re-looked at. But it is already changing because over the last few

:06:03.:06:05.

months we have already seen new measures being put into place which

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have meant numbers have gone down. So the sense of urgency of the

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migrant crisis has passed. The problem is that this attack could

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fire up the debate about whether it was a good thing or not, what

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happened over the last year. Thank you very much.

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Well, the attack in Berlin came only hours after another attack

:06:21.:06:22.

Russia's ambassador to Turkey was shot dead by a policeman

:06:23.:06:28.

as he gave a speech at an art gallery.

:06:29.:06:30.

Mevlut Mert Aydintas shot Andrei Karlov, apparently in protest

:06:31.:06:35.

The 22-year-old, who was a member of the Ankara riot police,

:06:36.:06:41.

These attacks are the latest in a string of atrocities

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In March, 32 people were killed in three separate bomb

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attacks in Brussels - two at the main airport

:06:54.:06:57.

On the 14th July, in the southern French city of Nice,

:06:58.:07:05.

86 civilians were killed when a French man of Tunisian origin

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drove a lorry in to crowds celebrating Bastille Day.

:07:09.:07:12.

On the 14th July, in the southern French city of Nice,

:07:13.:07:17.

86 civilians were killed when a French man of Tunisian origin

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drove a lorry in to crowds celebrating Bastille Day.

:07:21.:07:22.

A few days later a teenage Afghan refugee armed with an axe

:07:23.:07:27.

and a knife injured five people on a train in southern Germany.

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Shortly after that nine people were killed when a German-Iranian

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teenager opened fire in a shopping centre in Munich.

:07:33.:07:34.

On the 24th July, in Stuttgart, a woman was killed by a Syrian

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And on that same day, in Ansbach in southern Germany,

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15 people were injured after a Syrian refugee blew himself

:07:43.:07:44.

Joining me now is our security correspondent, Gordon Corera. A lot

:07:45.:07:55.

has been talked about, Christmas markets and the security. They are

:07:56.:07:58.

an ideal target for attackers where you have large crowds of people all

:07:59.:08:02.

gathered in a relatively small space. That's right. What we've seen

:08:03.:08:08.

in an event yesterday in Berlin seems to be two trends coming

:08:09.:08:12.

together. For a long time terrorist groups have wanted to target

:08:13.:08:16.

Christmas markets, even going back to the year 2000 and the early days

:08:17.:08:21.

of Al-Qaeda, the Strasbourg market was a target for them. There have

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been other attempts in the intervening years. Because they are

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a place where a lot of people gather, a soft target for those

:08:29.:08:32.

terrorist groups. And the symbolic value, the fact people are relaxing

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and it is the holiday time, it heightens the emotional impact. The

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second trend is this use of vehicles. In the past, it may have

:08:40.:08:44.

been explosives or gunmen. Now it's their cause and particularly trucks

:08:45.:08:49.

which we sort used in Nice earlier this year. The combination of those

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two is very difficult for the security and police forces to

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protect against. They have done work in Britain to try and defend against

:08:57.:09:01.

exactly that kind of scenario. But the European countries may not have

:09:02.:09:04.

had quite as many plans. Some have put lots of security around those

:09:05.:09:09.

markets, others left. I was in Strasbourg myself and they certainly

:09:10.:09:12.

did block of all the entrances so you couldn't easily drive any

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vehicles through. What has been a security response? The Metropolitan

:09:17.:09:20.

Police here have said that they're reviewing their plans as a

:09:21.:09:24.

precaution. They say there's no specific intelligence anything

:09:25.:09:30.

targeting London or the UK, but the Metropolitan Police are reviewing

:09:31.:09:32.

their plans in light of what's happened in Berlin. They have been

:09:33.:09:35.

worried about this kind of event for some time. They have been looking at

:09:36.:09:40.

crowded places for some time, doing things like surveillance tactics,

:09:41.:09:44.

putting in Lords. Most of them have tended to be around public

:09:45.:09:49.

buildings, government buildings, to try and prevent a vehicle borne

:09:50.:09:53.

explosives. Trucks pose a different challenge and that is perhaps where

:09:54.:09:57.

more of the focus will be no. Angela Merkel is being blamed in part by

:09:58.:10:01.

her political enemies, as we were hearing from Berlin. And at the same

:10:02.:10:05.

time, counterterror organisations are warning and have warned of a

:10:06.:10:11.

risk that refugees would be targeted by extremist recruiters.

:10:12.:10:14.

Interestingly, we just have of the interior minister in Germany hasn't

:10:15.:10:17.

dated that this is a terrorist attack. He saying they don't know

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what the motive was. -- the interior minister hasn't stated. I think

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they're being cautious, but we had Angela Merkel say that the

:10:27.:10:30.

assumption was it was a terrorist attack. All the trends are pointing

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that direction. The issue of refugees is toxic, politically,

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especially in Germany because of Angela Merkel's previous policy. We

:10:39.:10:42.

have seen indications of people trying to radicalise refugees. We

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also saw in the Paris attacks just over one year ago so-called Islamic

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State use refugee floats to try to send its operatives in and hide them

:10:53.:11:00.

admits that way. For that reason, I think this concern has been there

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and people are questioning if enough has been done to protect against

:11:04.:11:07.

this threat. Clearly in Germany in election time, after Angela Merkel

:11:08.:11:13.

took a lead of opening doors, that of a political issue. Let's talk

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about Turkey and the most brazen of assassinations last night, the

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Russian ambassador. Is this just dreadful -- is this just

:11:25.:11:28.

straightforward retaliation for Russia's involvement in Syria? I

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think if you take the killer's word at face value, yes, this was his

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anger at what he was seeing in Aleppo. His response to it was to

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kill the Russian ambassador. Russia being seen as having been

:11:42.:11:45.

responsible in some people'sI for much about violence. The Turkish

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authorities describe it as a provocation. Some people linked to

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the Turkish government are trying to link it to an opposition movement

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and say that it was an attempt to damage Turkey Russia relations,

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which were very low after Turkey shot down a Russian jet that. If you

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take the killer's word at face value, yes. He said it was due to

:12:09.:12:12.

the anger of events at Aleppo. Just another sign of how the conflict in

:12:13.:12:15.

Syria is rippling out in so many places, in so many countries, into

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Europe and beyond. Gordon Corera, thank you very much.

:12:22.:12:23.

Let's talk briefly about the politics of this.

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Already Angela Merkel's opponents are jumping on this alternative for

:12:29.:12:34.

Germany party, completely blaming her. Is that fair? Obviously not.

:12:35.:12:40.

Francis have the same problem and France hasn't had anything like an

:12:41.:12:43.

open door policy. The idea that you could insulate yourself against this

:12:44.:12:49.

kind of action by having entirely closed borders I think is sort of

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deliberately misleading and demoted. The plain fact is that these attacks

:12:59.:13:06.

often happen from radicalised Muslims who are second generation to

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a country anyway. So it's not really relevant whether their refugees or

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not. The relevant is that you've got a radicalisation, the way to prevent

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radicalisation is relevant. If you want to talk about preventing their

:13:20.:13:24.

happening, the global political situation is relevant. But the idea

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that you can say, OK, we've erected these borders and therefore will

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never be victims of attack is not relevant. Doesn't it inflame the

:13:33.:13:38.

situation, Kelvin MacKenzie? We can show you tweets, one from Nigel

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Farage where he says it would be the legacy of Angela Merkel's open-door

:13:43.:13:48.

policy. And Brendan Cox, the husband of the murdered MP, Jo Cox, saying

:13:49.:13:53.

you can't blame politicians for the actions of extremists because it's a

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slippery slope. I want towards Nigel Farage's view in the sense that it

:13:58.:14:01.

is a legacy for Merkel, it might be the only one. But the idea that --

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it won't be the only one. But the idea that a million people come from

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a dangerous war-torn area, you're bound to think that you might have

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more violence in that a million people than you might in any other

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area. We can have a legitimate and academic discussion about it. If I

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am the mother and father, or I am any kind of family relatives of

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those people who are being killed by a truck driving at 40 mph into them,

:14:29.:14:34.

I don't think it would be quite so sophisticated. Calvin, on that basis

:14:35.:14:43.

all refugees come from a war-torn area, otherwise they're not proper

:14:44.:14:48.

refugees. Are they proper refugees, that is the question? Let me talk.

:14:49.:14:52.

I'm just answering your question. Do you know the answer? Let her talk. A

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minute ago you said they'd come from a war-torn area and are bound to be

:14:59.:15:01.

violent. Now you're saying they haven't. Some have and some haven't.

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You can't have it both ways. The point is some are second generation.

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They waited necessarily come from war-torn areas. This particular

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killer, allegedly, the Germans, have you noticed how clever the German

:15:18.:15:20.

politicians are - it was the same about trying to dampen down the

:15:21.:15:26.

whole thing in Kalou. This particular guy appears to have come

:15:27.:15:31.

here to kill and he has succeeded. If I'm a family member, I hate this

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whole thing. We will find out no doubt as developments unfold.

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Now, last Friday saw what has been described as one of the worst riots

:15:38.:15:41.

in a British prison for more than 25 years.

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Yesterday Justice Secretary Liz Truss was summoned to the Commons

:15:45.:15:47.

to explain what happened in the Category B prison

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in Birmingham, and how violence then spilled over to Hull after some

:15:50.:15:52.

inmates were moved to the jail there that evening.

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She told MPs that staff shortages and the drug and violence problems

:15:56.:15:58.

gripping prisons in England and Wales would last for months.

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Here's a flavour from yesterday's statement to parliament.

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Levels of violence are too high in our prisons.

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We also have very concerning levels of self harm and deaths in custody.

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That's why we are reforming our prisons to be safe

:16:20.:16:22.

and purposeful places, and taking swift action to deal

:16:23.:16:24.

The Secretary of State has a prison crisis on her hands,

:16:25.:16:33.

and it would be helpful if she finally admitted this

:16:34.:16:35.

The riots at the privately-run Birmingham prison on Friday has been

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described as probably the most serious riots in a Category B

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Nothing that happened in my constituency

:16:46.:16:51.

The Independent monitoring board report on HMP Birmingham found that

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staff we sourcing constraints gave cause for concern and there

:17:00.:17:01.

was a lack of capacity to run the full prison regime.

:17:02.:17:04.

We've already heard about the dramatic rise

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in psychoactive drug use, mobile phone use and indeed

:17:07.:17:08.

I'm told by my local prison officers this is because the levels of prison

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Robert Nicholson, the Prison Officers' Association representative

:17:14.:17:21.

in Hull described the situation at the weekend as a powder

:17:22.:17:23.

It was said to be on the brink of riot.

:17:24.:17:32.

Prison officers tell me they were afraid to go to work.

:17:33.:17:38.

Two thirds of our prisons are overcrowded.

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We've seen disturbances that many prisons, not just Birmingham,

:17:41.:17:42.

And the level of suicide in our prisons is the highest that

:17:43.:17:48.

And we've seen very little remorse from the Secretary of State today.

:17:49.:17:57.

Well, I have been very clear about the issues we have

:17:58.:18:03.

Since I secured this role in July I've been focused

:18:04.:18:09.

on dealing with them, making sure that we make our prisons

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safer, making sure that we invest in those staff, making sure

:18:14.:18:16.

we invest in mental health facilities in our prisons to deal

:18:17.:18:19.

We asked the Ministry of Justice if a minister

:18:20.:18:28.

However, we are joined by the Shadow Secretary of State

:18:29.:18:34.

Good afternoon. You told parliament yesterday there was now a crisis in

:18:35.:18:46.

the prison system. What you think has caused the crisis? This is a

:18:47.:18:51.

crisis that has brewed in the last few weeks or months. This has been a

:18:52.:18:56.

long time coming. How many years? If you look in 2010, since then, the

:18:57.:19:05.

government cut front line prison staff by 6000 that plays a big part

:19:06.:19:09.

what is a crisis. There are a record number of assaults on prison staff

:19:10.:19:13.

and violence is out of control in prisons. As you said earlier, in the

:19:14.:19:18.

package, it's the most serious category B prison riot for more than

:19:19.:19:22.

a quarter of a century if we think back to the Strangeways riots. You

:19:23.:19:28.

are blaming conservatives for cutting officers and the coalition

:19:29.:19:32.

government since 2010, and that is the sole cause of the problems we

:19:33.:19:36.

are seeing? It's not the sole cause, but it is significant that 6000

:19:37.:19:42.

fewer front line prison staff are present. We have a crisis in terms

:19:43.:19:45.

of understaffed prisons, overcrowded prisons. There are a number of

:19:46.:19:52.

factors involved. But this has been decades in the making. Some of the

:19:53.:19:56.

blame must go back to the Labour governments before 2010. If you talk

:19:57.:20:01.

about issues of overcrowding, sentencing, mental health, drugs

:20:02.:20:04.

problems and cutting officers, this has been a long time coming. We have

:20:05.:20:09.

to have an open mind about how to solve this prison crisis going

:20:10.:20:14.

forward. That means questioning lots of the ways that prisons are run,

:20:15.:20:19.

both in relation to people with mental health problems, in relation

:20:20.:20:22.

to the weight that prisoners on short sentences are treated in

:20:23.:20:27.

relation to staffing levels and in relation to rehabilitation. To

:20:28.:20:31.

protect society we need rehabilitation to work.

:20:32.:20:33.

Rehabilitation costs less than reoffending. The prisoners deserve

:20:34.:20:39.

some of the blame for rioting. They are in jail to be punished. It isn't

:20:40.:20:44.

meant to be a pleasant experience, in that sense. Are they entitled to

:20:45.:20:50.

much better conditions? Can I had something? There's a salient point

:20:51.:20:54.

is that this is a private jail. This was outsourced to G4S. As I made

:20:55.:21:04.

clear in Parliament. Please ignore the reactions from Kelvin. When a

:21:05.:21:09.

private contractor comes in to undercut the private sector is

:21:10.:21:12.

because they pay the staff less, and that is because they are less

:21:13.:21:16.

well-trained and there is a huge body of evidence that the public

:21:17.:21:18.

sector might not be good at anything but they are good at staff

:21:19.:21:22.

management and managing the prisoners they have got.

:21:23.:21:25.

Undertrained prison officers are not so good at it. What happens then is

:21:26.:21:29.

that the prisoners feel under threat from one another and I heard

:21:30.:21:33.

anecdotally in Birmingham that the staff are frightened of the

:21:34.:21:36.

prisoners which is a woeful situation. Hardly a surprise. It is

:21:37.:21:46.

a surprise. Is it in those situations? The prison system

:21:47.:21:48.

private -- prides itself on good management and no member of staff

:21:49.:21:51.

should be frightened. I wondered how long it would be before we'd go on

:21:52.:21:54.

to the private sector. The truth of the matter is that these are vile

:21:55.:22:00.

pigs who are being allowed to get drugs and the like flown in or

:22:01.:22:06.

brought in by their family. How are they managing to do it? I am

:22:07.:22:12.

absolutely in favour of hiring more staff, and if it can be proved...

:22:13.:22:17.

And if the cuts turn out to be the reason, but let's not worry about

:22:18.:22:21.

whose fault it is, these are the vile pigs who are in there in the

:22:22.:22:25.

first place. So in the end it doesn't matter who is running it? Do

:22:26.:22:30.

you agree? That it wouldn't make any difference ending the privatisation

:22:31.:22:34.

of jails? I raised the point yesterday in Parliament and not

:22:35.:22:37.

everyone was pleased, but I think the government needs to consider the

:22:38.:22:41.

issue of whether it is correct for profit-making companies to be making

:22:42.:22:48.

money out of society 's ills and the incarceration of human beings. The

:22:49.:22:52.

prison in Birmingham had the most assaults on staff of any prison in

:22:53.:22:57.

the whole of the UK. So that's an ideological point you are making

:22:58.:23:00.

about privatisation or nationalising or putting it into the public

:23:01.:23:04.

sector. Is that really the critical point? You can take a sideswipe at

:23:05.:23:08.

the general policy of the Conservative government, but is it

:23:09.:23:12.

the root cause of what is going on in Birmingham jail? It needs to be

:23:13.:23:16.

considered. But different rules apply to private prisons. I was

:23:17.:23:20.

pleased yesterday when Liz Truss said in response about whether she

:23:21.:23:24.

was happy with the fact that private prisons don't have to disclose

:23:25.:23:29.

staffing levels, she said she would do something about it and I hope she

:23:30.:23:33.

does. What would you do differently? You are against Private prisons and

:23:34.:23:39.

G4S, what would you do differently to reduce overcrowding? We need to

:23:40.:23:43.

have an open mind. An open mind is fine, but it's not a significant

:23:44.:23:48.

policy. This is a situation that will not be solved easily. So you

:23:49.:23:55.

haven't got any solutions? Well we wouldn't have cut 6000 front line

:23:56.:23:59.

prison staff. We wouldn't have started sticking the boot into the

:24:00.:24:03.

prison officers Association. Perhaps the government can learn from the

:24:04.:24:08.

people going to work every day in fear of being punched, spat at and

:24:09.:24:13.

attacked. Absolutely, but let's come to some of the other potential

:24:14.:24:18.

policies. Would you like to see less overcrowding? Fewer people going to

:24:19.:24:23.

jail? Will we certainly want to see less overcrowding. The point I want

:24:24.:24:28.

to make is that people on shorter sentences are going into prison

:24:29.:24:32.

without drug addictions and coming out of prison with drug addictions.

:24:33.:24:35.

They are coming out of prison more likely to commit serious crimes and

:24:36.:24:39.

when they went in. That's not good for the individual prisoners or

:24:40.:24:43.

society. We need to look at the way shorter sentences work. It is true

:24:44.:24:48.

about the drugs but politicians are obsessed with short sentences. The

:24:49.:24:51.

problem is long sentences and this has been going on since the Labour

:24:52.:24:56.

government. Sentences have crept up and judges are under pressure to

:24:57.:25:00.

make sentences harsher and you get a huge number of prisoners. We have

:25:01.:25:03.

the highest number of prisoners than we have had in my career. I think

:25:04.:25:08.

it's good news and we should staff up prisons so these people who are

:25:09.:25:14.

beating up our prison officers, which is an absolute disgrace,

:25:15.:25:18.

should be protected, and if they won't be protected, there can be

:25:19.:25:24.

jails where these pigs are locked up 24 hours a day. One of the problems

:25:25.:25:29.

is liberal politicians believing they are being nice and giving them

:25:30.:25:33.

short sentences. But repeat offences are the big problems and you won't

:25:34.:25:36.

stop repeat offences if you lock people up in those conditions. There

:25:37.:25:42.

is a percentage of society who wants them to have a bad time all day and

:25:43.:25:46.

all night. Rehabilitation does not work for most of these people. I am

:25:47.:25:51.

calling time on this. Thank you very much, Richard.

:25:52.:25:52.

The Scottish Government has today published its plan to keep that part

:25:53.:25:54.

of the United Kingdom inside the single market,

:25:55.:25:56.

even if England, Wales and Northern Ireland end up outside.

:25:57.:25:59.

It would mean that Scots could still work throughout the EU,

:26:00.:26:01.

other European citizens could live and work in Scotland

:26:02.:26:04.

and there would be no restrictions on trade between Scotland

:26:05.:26:06.

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has been outlining

:26:07.:26:09.

There are already a range of asymmetric

:26:10.:26:21.

in operation within the EU and single market framework.

:26:22.:26:24.

The solution we seek for Scotland would be different in detail

:26:25.:26:26.

and scale to many of these arrangements, but not

:26:27.:26:29.

Second, the UK Government already appears open to a flexible Brexit

:26:30.:26:32.

approach in relation to different sectors of the economy.

:26:33.:26:34.

It would also be necessary to take a flexible approach in relation

:26:35.:26:37.

There is no good reason whatsoever why such flexibility should not

:26:38.:26:47.

Lastly, and perhaps most fundamentally, everything

:26:48.:26:49.

about Brexit would be difficult and unprecedented.

:26:50.:26:54.

The negotiations ahead would be characterised by a need to find

:26:55.:26:57.

practical solutions to a range of complex issues.

:26:58.:27:02.

I'm joined now from Holyrood by our correspondent, Glenn Campbell.

:27:03.:27:09.

Under quite fierce questioning, Nicola Sturgeon said it was

:27:10.:27:15.

achievable if political will was there, but is the political will

:27:16.:27:20.

there? Is there any evidence in Westminster or EU member states that

:27:21.:27:23.

the will is there to give Scotland a special arrangement? Nicola Sturgeon

:27:24.:27:28.

spoke on the phone with Theresa May yesterday and Mrs May confirmed that

:27:29.:27:33.

she would take seriously the proposals that the Scottish

:27:34.:27:36.

Government have published, although Gap contrasts -- that contrast with

:27:37.:27:42.

comments made by Philip Hammond in Edinburgh when he said it was not a

:27:43.:27:46.

realistic prospect for Scotland to have a special deal to stay in the

:27:47.:27:52.

single market of the rest of the UK was coming out. So the prospect of

:27:53.:27:57.

the UK adopting these proposals, I think, are slim. That does not mean

:27:58.:28:03.

they are not prepared to have a discussion about, for instance,

:28:04.:28:06.

further devolution to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government

:28:07.:28:11.

because, of course, as the UK leaves the European Union, powers will be

:28:12.:28:15.

repatriated and it might be that some of those come here to Holyrood

:28:16.:28:19.

rather than Westminster. If Scotland is in the single market and the rest

:28:20.:28:25.

of the UK is not and is outside of the customs union, won't that mean a

:28:26.:28:29.

hard border between England and Scotland and customs posts? The

:28:30.:28:34.

border arrangements between England and Scotland would be one of the big

:28:35.:28:37.

questions to be addressed. Nicola Sturgeon believes that the

:28:38.:28:41.

difficulties that might be presented can be overcome if there is the

:28:42.:28:49.

political will to do so. On the question of immigration, she thinks

:28:50.:28:52.

the Common travel area through the UK and Ireland could be maintained

:28:53.:28:57.

and it would be for the rest of the UK to make their checks on EU

:28:58.:29:03.

citizens who have come to the UK through Scotland at the point where

:29:04.:29:09.

they seek employment or benefits or seek access to housing. She thinks

:29:10.:29:13.

that a solution can be found between Scotland and England on because the

:29:14.:29:17.

UK Government and the Irish government have made clear their

:29:18.:29:20.

intention to find a solution for the border in Ireland. But doesn't it

:29:21.:29:25.

make it more likely there will be another independence referendum if

:29:26.:29:28.

she pursues this separate deal? I think there are two ways of looking

:29:29.:29:34.

at what Nicola Sturgeon put forward. Today she wouldn't -- presents it as

:29:35.:29:38.

a serious attempt to find a compromise on Brexit because 62% of

:29:39.:29:43.

Scots voted to remain. Some of her rivals say in essence what she's

:29:44.:29:46.

doing is making impossible demands of the UK Government, knowing in the

:29:47.:29:52.

end they will be rejected to justify that second referendum on

:29:53.:29:54.

independence. When Nicola Sturgeon started today she did remind people

:29:55.:30:00.

that her view is that the best option for Scotland is independence

:30:01.:30:03.

within the EU, and that remains ultimately the SNP goal. Thank you

:30:04.:30:05.

very much. Now to the latest part in our series

:30:06.:30:10.

looking at the issues faced by key government departments

:30:11.:30:14.

in the run-up to Brexit. We've already covered

:30:15.:30:15.

the Home Office, the environment, For today's tracker we've

:30:16.:30:17.

turned our attention to another key government department facing some

:30:18.:30:21.

big questions over its role in the post Brexit landscape,

:30:22.:30:23.

the Department for Health. With around 130,000 EU nationals

:30:24.:30:31.

working in the health and social care sector,

:30:32.:30:34.

politicians and their civil servants in the Department of Health will be

:30:35.:30:37.

heavily involved in negotiations over immigration policy,

:30:38.:30:41.

and particularly what system of work permits will be available for health

:30:42.:30:43.

workers post Brexit. The EU forces each member to accept

:30:44.:30:48.

each other's medics and nurses Will Brexit allow Britain to demand

:30:49.:30:51.

higher standards of qualification Or will reciprocal

:30:52.:30:59.

recognition continue? The UK already has its own

:31:00.:31:04.

regulatory body for licensing new drugs, although many companies

:31:05.:31:07.

prefer to go through the European Medicines Agency that

:31:08.:31:10.

covers all EU markets. If we leave that, some campaigners

:31:11.:31:13.

believe drugs could be made One of the more visible benefits

:31:14.:31:17.

to be due membership is the European Health Insurance Card

:31:18.:31:26.

which guarantees free health care when abroad,

:31:27.:31:27.

and brings down the cost Will a new deal being negotiated,

:31:28.:31:31.

or will the UK form a series of bilateral agreements

:31:32.:31:35.

with major destinations? The EU currently coordinates

:31:36.:31:38.

responses to pandemics through its European Centre

:31:39.:31:42.

for Disease Control and Prevention. Will we continue to work

:31:43.:31:44.

with the agency after Brexit? And, if so, what we have

:31:45.:31:48.

more access than Norway and Switzerland, which work

:31:49.:31:51.

with it but do not make decisions? Currently NHS procurement has

:31:52.:31:54.

to follow EU mandated standards, which many believe

:31:55.:32:00.

leaves it uncompetitive. Will the new legislation

:32:01.:32:03.

after Brexit allow for greater efficiencies, freeing up money

:32:04.:32:09.

for patient treatment? These are just some of the issues

:32:10.:32:13.

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and his team have on their plates

:32:14.:32:15.

as the government moves ever closer to trigger an Article 50,

:32:16.:32:19.

and firing the starting gun on our exit from

:32:20.:32:21.

the EU by next March. To discuss all that,

:32:22.:32:29.

we're joined by Andrew Lansley, the Health Secretary

:32:30.:32:31.

from 2010 to 2012. The NHS relies heavily on EU

:32:32.:32:43.

nationals, and there's been a lot of discussion about it. Surely not even

:32:44.:32:47.

the most hardened Lever would begrudge those who come here to look

:32:48.:32:52.

after our sick when it comes to freedom of movement and immigration

:32:53.:32:55.

controls? This is one of the central issues for the health service and

:32:56.:32:59.

life science companies. The first thing they say is we want access to

:33:00.:33:03.

the best people, and the number of people we need. Because we're

:33:04.:33:08.

talking about 10,000 doctors, 20,000 nurses, 90,000 people in the care

:33:09.:33:11.

sector from elsewhere in the European Union. And Brexit I was a

:33:12.:33:17.

Remainder, but the Brexiteers are pretty clear about this. They say

:33:18.:33:21.

it's not necessarily about numbers, it's about taking back control. If

:33:22.:33:25.

we want doctors and nurses from abroad, if we want Filipino nurses,

:33:26.:33:32.

that they can save nurses are on the shortage list for the migration

:33:33.:33:37.

committee so we can recruit nurses from all over the world. They would

:33:38.:33:42.

say it's possible to do this thing, it just doesn't mean necessarily

:33:43.:33:45.

that immigration numbers go down. And if immigration numbers don't go

:33:46.:33:48.

down, that may cause another row amongst the people who did support

:33:49.:33:53.

the idea of leaving. They did want to see fewer immigrants coming.

:33:54.:33:56.

Let's take those numbers in the care industry and in terms of doctors and

:33:57.:34:00.

nurses. Would it not be better if we trained British workers to do the

:34:01.:34:04.

same job? Clearly, that would take some time. Of course. It does take a

:34:05.:34:09.

long time. When I was secretary of state I wanted more emergency

:34:10.:34:12.

doctors. They just weren't in this country. We had to go abroad. How

:34:13.:34:16.

long do you think you can take to build up the numbers? We are talking

:34:17.:34:22.

a 10-year timeline for doctors. For nurses, five years. I'm puzzled

:34:23.:34:26.

about this. Why is it we can't train at our own doctors? It's troubling,

:34:27.:34:32.

isn't it? This has been an issue for 25 years. Why is it? The issue, you

:34:33.:34:38.

understand, is about the role of the BMA in particular. We have

:34:39.:34:43.

constraints on the number of British doctors, but we have the most

:34:44.:34:47.

expensive doctors in Europe. For a German doctor to come and work the

:34:48.:34:51.

weekend in Britain, it is highly attractive. When you say

:34:52.:34:56.

constraints... What about agency fees? We do pay doctors more, as it

:34:57.:35:02.

happens. Why do we explode... The main problem is the issue. We could

:35:03.:35:10.

train more doctors. Don't talk over each other. The Labour government

:35:11.:35:18.

just before 2010 set up new medical schools, so we were in the process

:35:19.:35:21.

of increasing the number of doctors in training. But the constraint was

:35:22.:35:24.

that the number of training places available in hospitals. That was a

:35:25.:35:30.

key problem. There would be a big gap if we lost a significant number

:35:31.:35:34.

of doctors and nurses and care staff I'm hopeful that we went. Were

:35:35.:35:38.

hopeful that the UK won't lose them. What kind of permit system, let's

:35:39.:35:43.

say there was a permit system that came into play for EU nationals,

:35:44.:35:47.

what would you like to see so that we can still have this doctors and

:35:48.:35:49.

nurses that the country needs? It's going to look like BT to visas.

:35:50.:35:55.

Something of that order. -- it's going to look likely tier two visas.

:35:56.:36:01.

I worked in America and you had to go through some hoops and jumps, but

:36:02.:36:06.

it was in the end of the world. It could make it more difficult. It is

:36:07.:36:11.

more difficult relative to working elsewhere in Europe. The catheter is

:36:12.:36:14.

different in the sense that the care workers have been actively

:36:15.:36:18.

recruited. -- the care sector is different. The fact is that people

:36:19.:36:22.

who live here and have families he cannot afford to work as care

:36:23.:36:27.

workers, least of all in London. 80% of London workers have been

:36:28.:36:30.

recruited from the Philippines or from Kenya, or somewhere other than

:36:31.:36:35.

the UK. The point is, that is just creating a low-wage economy within a

:36:36.:36:39.

particular sector. To say we need to protect that as a Visa requirement,

:36:40.:36:43.

will put you had to have everybody who ever said immigration is

:36:44.:36:47.

bringing down wages. If we move onto the reciprocal arrangement at the

:36:48.:36:51.

moment that means professional qualifications are recognised here

:36:52.:36:54.

and between the European Union states, so you can have a nurse one

:36:55.:36:59.

EU member state, her qualifications are recognised here and vice versa,

:37:00.:37:04.

should we remain part of the scheme? Most of the things we've been

:37:05.:37:08.

talking about here, including the reciprocal health care arrangements,

:37:09.:37:11.

I think actually varies, on the face of it, a good reason on both sides

:37:12.:37:16.

to come to an agreement on it. But it's never going to be quite that

:37:17.:37:20.

straightforward because health, like some of the other issues you've been

:37:21.:37:27.

discussing in this series is going to get complicated by the point at

:37:28.:37:31.

which the Europeans say, hang on a minute, you can't have all the

:37:32.:37:34.

benefits of being in the European Union without meeting the

:37:35.:37:39.

obligations. Is not the problem, Kelvin MacKenzie, that if we are

:37:40.:37:41.

trying to opt back in or maintain reciprocal arrangements, not just in

:37:42.:37:47.

health, but in other areas, on the one side there will be people who

:37:48.:37:49.

say we're not leaving the EU, and others will save you can't have

:37:50.:37:53.

everything the way it was because you've left. I don't know. The UK

:37:54.:38:00.

economy is a fantastic economy. It's creating loads of jobs. But it's not

:38:01.:38:05.

that simple, is it? The demand to come here is far outstripping the

:38:06.:38:10.

number of drops we've got to supply. I'm not worried for a single second

:38:11.:38:14.

that we aren't going to be able to fill the jobs required. There may be

:38:15.:38:18.

difficulty on the management side. I couldn't care less. I'm going to let

:38:19.:38:22.

Zoe Williams finished. That doesn't answer the question at all because

:38:23.:38:25.

what we're talking about its reciprocal arrangements which cover

:38:26.:38:29.

a huge amount, including legislation and the regulatory framework that

:38:30.:38:33.

allows us to cooperate with Europe. We've got a massive job of work to

:38:34.:38:37.

do here to either establish our own framework or buy back into the EU.

:38:38.:38:41.

We've got to stop talking about this as though it were only an

:38:42.:38:45.

immigration issue. I think very is right. Let me give you an example.

:38:46.:38:51.

We've just finished the process of negotiating the medical devices

:38:52.:38:54.

regulations across Europe. The best people for doing this are the

:38:55.:38:57.

medicines and health care regulatory agency in Britain, their leaders.

:38:58.:39:00.

We've got the best regulators in Europe. So there is an obvious

:39:01.:39:06.

negotiable arrangement that says we're still in this thing. Wearing

:39:07.:39:10.

clinical trials because we want to have European clinical trials. We

:39:11.:39:15.

are willing to be part of the regulatory system, and they would

:39:16.:39:18.

want us to be part of the regulatory system. Why wouldn't other European

:39:19.:39:23.

countries want us to continue? Because at some point politics will

:39:24.:39:28.

interfere. That's my worry. You don't know that, though. Let's talk

:39:29.:39:34.

about European health insurance cards. When you go abroad you take

:39:35.:39:37.

them with you and it gives you access to the health abroad in other

:39:38.:39:42.

EU member states. And the government pays. You would still want to be

:39:43.:39:47.

part of a scheme? From the public's point of view, we would. Of course.

:39:48.:39:50.

But first we need to know whether the government wants to be a good it

:39:51.:39:54.

will cost than 600 million per year to be part of this thing. Secondly,

:39:55.:40:01.

how does that work? If you travel to Spain, you can have this card that

:40:02.:40:04.

means we will pay for your health care. If you travel to Morocco,

:40:05.:40:09.

we're not paying for you. On what basis is the British government

:40:10.:40:14.

going to discriminate? On the basis of maybe a reciprocal arrangement.

:40:15.:40:18.

If a Moroccan comes to Britain, we'll pay for his health care. The

:40:19.:40:24.

newspapers today so we 30 million light on what is being paid for four

:40:25.:40:28.

people coming here. We're not that great. We need to get better at

:40:29.:40:31.

making sure that people whose governments do pay for them to be

:40:32.:40:35.

here to pay. In that sense, do you think that these details, then

:40:36.:40:39.

details to a lot of people vote, that this may get lost in what will

:40:40.:40:46.

be a very big negotiation on Brexit? Dialogue going to be 1,000,001

:40:47.:40:53.

problems that face us exiting. -- there are going to be one problems.

:40:54.:40:59.

They were all created by humans and will be solved by humans. When

:41:00.:41:04.

people come over here they get free health. The politics of going to be

:41:05.:41:09.

dreadful. Andrew, thank you for coming in. I will have two and this

:41:10.:41:12.

discussion because I have some important breaking news following on

:41:13.:41:16.

from the attack of the truck being driven and killing 12 people in

:41:17.:41:18.

Berlin. The German police believe they have

:41:19.:41:22.

arrested the wrong man after the attack. This German police think the

:41:23.:41:30.

man arrested as a suspect in the attack on the Burling Christmas

:41:31.:41:33.

market was not the actual perpetrator. That is from a German

:41:34.:41:42.

newspaper. "We Have the wrong man", said a senior police chief, and

:41:43.:41:47.

therefore a new situation. Presumably that means the true

:41:48.:41:51.

perpetrator is still armed and at large and can cause fresh damage.

:41:52.:41:55.

Let me tell you again this is from a German newspaper. This is from Die

:41:56.:42:07.

Welt newspaper. For us political hacks it's often

:42:08.:42:09.

been hard to know where to look. In a moment we'll be

:42:10.:42:17.

pondering whether 2017 has But, first, let's look back

:42:18.:42:19.

at a remarkable year in politics. If we can get a good deal,

:42:20.:42:23.

I'll take that deal. With good will, with

:42:24.:42:29.

hard work we can get I will go to Parliament and

:42:30.:42:31.

propose that the British people The Work and Pensions Secretary,

:42:32.:42:35.

Iain Duncan Smith, I don't want to resign,

:42:36.:42:46.

but I'm resigning because I think Rewriting history!

:42:47.:42:53.

Rewriting history! All I wanted to do today was get out

:42:54.:42:58.

and do some gardening. Do you accept that this could become

:42:59.:43:02.

something of a crisis? We were getting prediction that

:43:03.:43:04.

Labour was going to lose councils. Sadiq Khan is elected

:43:05.:43:18.

as the new Mayor of London. And the UK is going to be

:43:19.:43:25.

in the back of the queue. Britain would be permanently poorer

:43:26.:43:37.

if we left the European Union. The material slowdown in growth,

:43:38.:43:41.

the notable increase in inflation. I think the people in this country

:43:42.:43:44.

have had enough of experts. Good evening, and welcome to Wembley

:43:45.:43:49.

and the Great Debate. But the benefits far

:43:50.:43:58.

outweigh any costs. And if we vote Leave

:43:59.:44:05.

and take back control, I believe that this Thursday

:44:06.:44:08.

could be our country's The Labour MP Jo Cox is killed

:44:09.:44:11.

and her West Yorkshire constituency. On that day, our lives

:44:12.:44:18.

changed forever. She was an amazing woman

:44:19.:44:24.

who was very widely She fought for her values and her

:44:25.:44:27.

beliefs, and she died for them. The British people have spoken

:44:28.:44:44.

and the answer is we're out. I think the country requires

:44:45.:44:48.

British leadership to take You brought down David Cameron,

:44:49.:45:00.

then you brought down Boris Johnson. Some people are saying

:45:01.:45:16.

that you are a kind I am therefore withdrawing from the

:45:17.:45:24.

leadership election. But I wish Theresa May the very greatest

:45:25.:45:30.

success. The government I lead will be driven not by the interests of

:45:31.:45:38.

the privileged few, but by yours. We know she is a difficult woman, but

:45:39.:45:41.

you and I used to work for Margaret Thatcher. I had no confidence in his

:45:42.:45:47.

leadership and he dismissed me from the Shadow Cabinet. I believe I have

:45:48.:45:51.

served in the best way I can, and today I have to go. Jeremy Corbyn is

:45:52.:45:58.

elected as leader of the Labour Party. I express more sorrow, regret

:45:59.:46:10.

and apology than you may ever know. After just 18 days in charge, it's

:46:11.:46:14.

reported that Diane James has quit as leader of Ukip. I will be

:46:15.:46:19.

withdrawing my application to become leader of Ukip and I am withdrawing

:46:20.:46:24.

myself from Ukip. I've made my decision but I will put my name

:46:25.:46:34.

forward to be leader of Ukip. There's never been a US presidential

:46:35.:46:38.

campaign quite like it. We will make America great again! They have just

:46:39.:46:46.

called Florida for Donald Trump. I'm sorry that we did not win this

:46:47.:46:52.

election. I've just received a call from Secretary Clinton.

:46:53.:47:02.

Brexit means Brexit. Brexit means Brexit. We will make Brexit as it

:47:03.:47:15.

stands. Guardians of our constitutions, or enemies of the

:47:16.:47:24.

people? It is a good morning. With a calm and measured approach, this

:47:25.:47:28.

government will honour the will of the British people and secure the

:47:29.:47:31.

right deal that will make a success of Brexit, the EU and for the world.

:47:32.:47:35.

So, that was a snapshot of some of the remarkable stories

:47:36.:47:38.

In January, all eyes will be on the Supreme Court.

:47:39.:47:47.

Its verdict on who has the right to trigger Article 50 -

:47:48.:47:52.

parliament or the government - is expected to be announced

:47:53.:47:55.

And at the end of the month Donald Trump will be sworn

:47:56.:48:00.

in as the 45th President of the United States.

:48:01.:48:02.

We'll also have a new President of the European

:48:03.:48:04.

Martin Schultz has already announced he won't serve a third term.

:48:05.:48:12.

In February, the other 27 members of the EU will meet

:48:13.:48:15.

at an informal Summit to discuss their negotiation

:48:16.:48:17.

Theresa May has promised to trigger Article 50

:48:18.:48:23.

by the end of the month, which will officially

:48:24.:48:25.

start the process of Britain's exit from the EU.

:48:26.:48:28.

In April, it's the first round of the French

:48:29.:48:31.

If no candidate wins an outright majority here

:48:32.:48:34.

there will be a run-off between the top two

:48:35.:48:37.

Also in May, there will be local elections

:48:38.:48:42.

in England, Scotland and Wales and the Queen's Speech

:48:43.:48:44.

will introduce the Great Repeal Bill which ends the jurisdiction

:48:45.:48:47.

of the European Court of Justice in the UK.

:48:48.:48:54.

Finally, in September, it's the German Federal Elections

:48:55.:48:56.

where Chancellor Angela Merkel will be vying for a fourth

:48:57.:48:58.

Well, to discuss this further I'm joined by Parliament's two newest

:48:59.:49:06.

members, Sarah Olney is the new Liberal Democrat

:49:07.:49:08.

MP for Richmond Park, and Caroline Johnson

:49:09.:49:09.

is the new Conservative MP for Sleaford and North Hykeham -

:49:10.:49:12.

Welcome to both of you in what looks like another busy year in 2017.

:49:13.:49:22.

Caroline Johnson, you voted in favour of Brexit, so what are your

:49:23.:49:26.

priorities for next year? My priorities for next year are working

:49:27.:49:30.

as a constituency MP and representing the people of Sleaford,

:49:31.:49:35.

as well as strengthening the government majority in parliament so

:49:36.:49:39.

we can deliver on Brexit and also the rest of the Conservative

:49:40.:49:42.

manifesto commitments. You said you were completely behind the

:49:43.:49:45.

government plan for Brexit. Do you know what the plan is for Brexit

:49:46.:49:50.

then? The plan is to trigger Article 50 by the end of March. That much we

:49:51.:49:56.

know. And then to concentrate on negotiating the best deal we can

:49:57.:50:01.

both with the European Union, so we can trade freely with them, while

:50:02.:50:06.

having control of borders and laws, but using the opportunity to also

:50:07.:50:10.

get good trade deals with other countries around the world. Well

:50:11.:50:14.

done, you have read the memo from Theresa May. Sarah, what are your

:50:15.:50:18.

New Year 's resolutions in terms of your political agenda? Like

:50:19.:50:24.

Caroline, I have some settling in to do and get round my constituency and

:50:25.:50:29.

start to meet people and make sure I'm representing them properly. In

:50:30.:50:34.

terms of politics, in the Liberal Democrats we are still very keen to

:50:35.:50:38.

see a much wider and bigger discussion about the terms of the X

:50:39.:50:41.

it from the EU, and that is something we will push for in

:50:42.:50:45.

parliament. -- the X it. Will you vote against the triggering of

:50:46.:50:51.

Article 50? Yes. Come what May? We have to see what is put before

:50:52.:50:56.

Parliament. Hopefully we will get a vote of Article 50 in parliament and

:50:57.:50:59.

I think that is what the Supreme Court will give us in January, but

:51:00.:51:02.

that was my commitment in my by-election campaign. But she will

:51:03.:51:08.

vote against it whatever plan is laid before Parliament? Even your

:51:09.:51:10.

Liberal Democrat colleagues are saying they wouldn't necessarily

:51:11.:51:14.

voting -- vote against it if they got a second referendum, for

:51:15.:51:19.

example? I have my own personal mandate from the voters. What we

:51:20.:51:23.

really want is to see a second referendum and we think it's really

:51:24.:51:29.

important. The leave vote did not give a clear mandate for the terms

:51:30.:51:33.

in which we leave the EU and we need to have a bigger discussion about

:51:34.:51:38.

what that looks like. On that, Caroline Johnson, your predecessor

:51:39.:51:42.

also voted for Brexit, but he resigned saying that ministers had

:51:43.:51:45.

ignored parliament since the referendum. Was he right? You would

:51:46.:51:50.

need to talk to Steven about why he resigned. Yes, but do you agree with

:51:51.:51:54.

him? That ministers have ignored Parliament since the referendum? I

:51:55.:52:01.

don't agree with him. The point that is being made is a key one, that we

:52:02.:52:05.

need to negotiate the best deal with the EU and whilst Theresa May has

:52:06.:52:10.

been clear that we will leave the European Union and that hurt

:52:11.:52:16.

priorities in doing so is to ensure we have control of borders,

:52:17.:52:20.

sovereignty and laws. Would you like asked to leave the single market and

:52:21.:52:26.

Customs union? We need to get the best deal without discussing every

:52:27.:52:29.

nuance of the negotiations while we are doing it. That is more than a

:52:30.:52:35.

nuance. OK. If that is the case and you say you have a personal mandate

:52:36.:52:40.

to vote against the triggering of Article 50, going further than some

:52:41.:52:43.

of your colleagues, as there are only three other people who will

:52:44.:52:47.

join you in that, Kenneth Clarke, David Lambie and Catherine West, so

:52:48.:52:53.

is there any point? It's about sending a clear message to Theresa

:52:54.:52:56.

May, whichever way we can, that Parliament want a greater say in the

:52:57.:53:00.

terms in which we leave the European Union, if that is to happen. Let's

:53:01.:53:05.

talk about other things on going. The strikes for example. Talk of a

:53:06.:53:11.

Christmas of discontent. One of your Conservative colleagues once more

:53:12.:53:14.

action to prevent unreasonable strikes. Would you back those sorts

:53:15.:53:21.

of proposals? I've not seen the detail of the proposals at this

:53:22.:53:26.

stage. Clearly the strikes are very upsetting and disruptive for those

:53:27.:53:30.

people who are trying to get the trains on time and other things. But

:53:31.:53:39.

hopefully the unions will be able to come to some negotiated settlement.

:53:40.:53:42.

There is no sign of that at the moment. My question is, if there

:53:43.:53:46.

were moves to further strengthen the laws, because you just have the

:53:47.:53:51.

trade union act passed to strengthen the threshold at which strike action

:53:52.:53:55.

can take place. The strike action by rail drivers met the threshold.

:53:56.:53:59.

Would you like to see stronger anti-trade union legislation? I

:54:00.:54:04.

think there has to be a balance between ensuring that the public can

:54:05.:54:08.

go about their daily life without strike action and a person's ability

:54:09.:54:16.

to make some sort of protest. Depending on the type of job they

:54:17.:54:19.

do, in some jobs, that is already not allowed, already banned, as it

:54:20.:54:25.

were. I think the devil is in the detail. It always is in the detail.

:54:26.:54:33.

In your case, do you think, when it comes to strikes that there should

:54:34.:54:39.

be firmer action? Would the Liberal Democrats support action to make it

:54:40.:54:42.

more difficult for people to go on strike, bearing in mind the

:54:43.:54:46.

disruption that has occurred? I think the right to strike is a

:54:47.:54:48.

fundamental freedom that is something would always defend. But

:54:49.:54:53.

do you see the rail drivers strike as an essential service? There is no

:54:54.:54:58.

doubt that the rail drivers strike has created enormous difficulties

:54:59.:55:02.

for people, particularly on Southern rail and across the south-east.

:55:03.:55:05.

People have had to leave their jobs because they cannot get to work. I'm

:55:06.:55:09.

disappointed we haven't had a firmer intervention by the government with

:55:10.:55:15.

the Southern Railway franchise because there have been problems on

:55:16.:55:18.

Southern Railway over two years. Not like this. It's a combination of

:55:19.:55:26.

factors. I think the government... It's not a combination of factors,

:55:27.:55:29.

it's an outrage. They are destroying people's lives and jobs, and it's a

:55:30.:55:34.

monopoly and monopolies should not be getting in the way of stopping

:55:35.:55:37.

ordinary hard-working people getting to work. Can I just say this

:55:38.:55:44.

argument, is front backwards. We will ignore that. There have been

:55:45.:55:49.

problems on Southern rail for longer than the industrial action on the

:55:50.:55:55.

problems are caused by underfunding and price gauging. It's absolutely

:55:56.:55:58.

straightforward. We shouldn't be talking about this is a trade union

:55:59.:56:02.

problem, it's a problem with privatising the railways. On that,

:56:03.:56:06.

will we see a Liberal Democrat surge? Are you the start of the

:56:07.:56:12.

surge? I hope so. Very much in the vanguard. Good luck to both of you.

:56:13.:56:14.

Have a good 2017. Now it wouldn't be a Daily

:56:15.:56:16.

Politics Christmas special without a Daily Politics Mystery

:56:17.:56:18.

Santa. He's been getting ready backstage

:56:19.:56:22.

but will Kelvin and Zoe be able to work out who's behind

:56:23.:56:25.

the beard this year? # They know that Santa is on his

:56:26.:56:48.

way. # He is loading lots of goodies on his sleigh. # Every mother's

:56:49.:57:01.

child is going to spy Tousiq reindeer -- to see if reindeer

:57:02.:57:02.

really how to fly. # two kids from one to 92. #

:57:03.:57:22.

Although it has been said many times, many ways, Merry Christmas to

:57:23.:57:29.

you. # Let's see if Kelvin and Zoe can work

:57:30.:57:37.

out who's behind the beard. You may have an idea anyway. Can we

:57:38.:57:54.

ask them questions? No, the voice gives it away. It's David Cameron,

:57:55.:57:58.

the only voice he can get going. I would be delighted if we had David

:57:59.:58:01.

Cameron, but I'm delighted we have this person. Any guesses? I have no

:58:02.:58:07.

idea. He was elected to the House of Commons in the 2005 general election

:58:08.:58:11.

which narrows it down by about nothing. He is one of seven MPs

:58:12.:58:14.

representing the county of Northamptonshire. Any guesses? He

:58:15.:58:19.

campaigned to leave in the EU referendum. He's a good guy. Right.

:58:20.:58:29.

Get the politics in there. No, Zoe? Is he still an MP? Who do you think

:58:30.:58:37.

he is then? What's he doing here? This is a very prestigious

:58:38.:58:40.

programme. Last week he got into trouble with the Commons Speaker for

:58:41.:58:44.

wearing a silly hat in support of a breast cancer charity in his

:58:45.:58:49.

constituency. I like him. You both like him. He is conservative. He is

:58:50.:58:57.

in his late 50s? Let's reveal. You've done very well at actually

:58:58.:59:01.

keeping your identity away. Yes, reveal. Who is it? Well done. You

:59:02.:59:13.

could see his face. The fact I knew his name is a great credit to him.

:59:14.:59:19.

He has a present. Very quickly. I think Kelvin will want this. The BBC

:59:20.:59:25.

definitely will not want this. Thank you very much. I can see it as a

:59:26.:59:33.

mug. That's it. Open your presence at your leisure.

:59:34.:59:34.

That's all for today and indeed that's all for 2016.

:59:35.:59:37.

I will be back with the Daily Politics on the 9th of January.

:59:38.:59:40.

Until then, from all of the team here, have a very Merry Christmas

:59:41.:59:43.

Show up your mugs here. That was very predictable. Peter Bone, thank

:59:44.:59:55.

you for being our mystery Santa. From all of us, thank you and have a

:59:56.:59:56.

very good festive season. Hello, I'm Charlie Brooker.

:59:57.:00:00.

Please join me for 2016 Wipe, looking back at a year containing

:00:01.:00:03.

nothing but hard Brexit, echo chambers, Lineker's knickers,

:00:04.:00:05.

the fall of Cameron,

:00:06.:00:08.

Jo Coburn is joined by Sun columnist Kelvin Mackenzie and Guardian columnist Zoe Williams to discuss the attack on a Christmas market in Berlin and the shooting of the Russian ambassador to Turkey.

Plus Jo interviews shadow justice minister Richard Burgon about staff shortages in prisons and former health secretary Lord Lansley about the implications of Brexit for health policy.


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