10/01/2017 Daily Politics


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10/01/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Times columnist Phil Collins to discuss the latest from Westminster, including Jeremy Corbyn's speech on Brexit and the resignation of Martin McGuinness.


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Jeremy Corbyn has been giving us his new year's resolutions ahead

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of his big speech on Brexit today - the Labour leader says he's "not

:00:46.:00:58.

-- wants a cap on maximum earnings and wedded" to EU

:00:59.:01:00.

But he also tells the BBC he stands by his view that immigration

:01:01.:01:04.

The Health Secretary admits NHS services in some parts of England

:01:05.:01:09.

were in an 'extemely fragile' state over Christmas.

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to relax the four-hour target for accident and emergency?

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We'll speak to his predecessor Andrew Lansley.

:01:15.:01:17.

The power-sharing government at Stormont is on the brink

:01:18.:01:20.

of collapse after Martin McGuinness quits as Deputy First Minister over

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Is Northern Ireland heading for a snap election,

:01:23.:01:27.

And we'll be saying farewell to Lord Biro, leader

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of the Bus Pass Elvis Party, as he hangs up his jumpsuit -

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and his bus pass - and says he's stood in his last

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With us for the whole of the programme today, it's Phil

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He's a columnist for the Times and he also used to be speech

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although probably not one Phil was asked to help with -

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Jeremy Corbyn is going to be talking about Labour's approach to Brexit

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But he's already given us plenty to chew over in a series

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he said he would like to see a cap on maximum income to address

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inequality. On immigration it was suggested he would back the idea on

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restrictions of EU nationals' rights to live a work in UK. This is what

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he said BBC political editor. The freedom of movement is being

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exploited by unscrupulous employers. That is what I want

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to put an end to. But do you or do you

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not want to end...? I want us to have market access

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in Europe, I want us And that means continuing

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with freedom of movement? Let's see what comes out of the

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negotiations. Also the way the government approaches this ought to

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be more open and reporting to Parliament about what they are doing

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and we are working with Socialist parties in government and opposition

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across Europe to build a good relationship with them for the good

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of this country and those future negotiations. Barry Gardner is the

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Shadow Secretary of State for international trade. Do you support

:03:26.:03:31.

curbing freedom of movement in the EU. We have said we are not wedded

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to the principle of free movement. We are wedded to jobs and economic

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prosperity, which has to be any government's topline in the UK. We

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want the continuation of jobs here and that means foreign companies

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have to be able to invest in this country, and it means the

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continuation of jobs in Europe. We have 2 million living and working in

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Europe and these negotiations have to secure those jobs and that

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prosperity which is what we depend on. The briefing overnight from the

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Labour Party was that Jeremy Corbyn would signal a change in direction.

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We know he has been wedded to EU freedom of movement, and he was

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going to say today that was not going to continue. Why did he go on

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to say he's still feels the levels of immigration are not too high,

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from the EU, and he said the EU says access to the single market requires

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freedom of movement, I would say economically we've got to be able to

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trade in Europe, in other words he would cave in to Brussels demands.

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It is not about caving in. Let's separate things that are distinct.

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One is the negotiating we have to do with partners in Europe about a new

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relationship and how we protect jobs and the British economy. They have

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stated clearly the four freedoms, one of which is freedom of movement,

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is a critical element of having unfettered access into the single

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market. He said if that is the price, so be it. We will sign up to

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freedom of movement. What we have said equally is we are not wedded to

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free movement as a principle, we are wedded to getting the best access

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that secures jobs and economic prosperity. There is a shift here.

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It is semantics, I think. Most people will say, Jeremy Corbyn is

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saying exactly what he has said before, he said he had not changed

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his mind about levels of immigration, maybe rightly so, but

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that is not what we were told he would say this afternoon. It is

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unravelling in his interviews when he says, although I am not wedded to

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free movement I will support it if that's the price for each economic

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jobs and prosperity. You are bundling together immigration

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controls with specifics in negotiation about freedom of

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movement as a principle and price in negotiations one has to pay to

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secure economic prosperity. Is it a price you are paired to pay for

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access to the single market? We have said we are not wedded to that and

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when it comes to immigration controls, we have said we believe in

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fair immigration rules and controls and properly managed migration. What

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does that mean for viewers, they want to know what Barry Gardner is

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saying, is he saying, in his fair managed migration policies that the

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Labour Party will support that numbers will come down. Is

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immigration to high? Let me answer both questions because there are

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two. The first question is answered by saying we want to ensure

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immigration policy works for the advantage of the people who are

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currently living in this country, and not only for the advantage of

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people who want to come here and the perception that the public have had

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in the past is it works too much in favour of people who want to come

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here and not in favour of people already here. That is the first

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point, the second part of your question, it relates to the

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management of migration. That is about ensuring instead of simply

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applying as the Conservatives try to do under Theresa May at the Home

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Office, an artificial number. And yet we now have record migration

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into this country, we are saying, let's look at the real problem, what

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is attracting people to come to this country? That is what Ed Miliband

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said, he wanted curbs on the way... Let me completely answer. You have

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not said if you want levels to come down. The way of ensuring levels

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come down to reasonable levels is to ensure employers are not able to

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attract people here, the workers directive that enables people to

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come as agency workers undercutting wage levels and jobs in the UK, that

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is what we want to stop and why Jeremy was setting out in the speech

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today, setting out a positive view of how we can be better off even

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outside the European Union. In your mind, has Jeremy Corbyn said

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anything different, has he stuck to the script briefed to everybody to

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say there is a shift in policy? My initial impression was there was a

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shift to managed migration, I thought it was significant and I

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take Barry's word it is. I think he is muffling the message, Jeremy

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Corbyn, to put it mildly. When a Labour leader gets to the question

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of immigration, they end up talking about exploitation of immigrants,

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which I agree is a question, it is not the question posed by most

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people, that is not what they are worrying about, particularly when

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they talk about immigration and that question, do do you want immigration

:09:15.:09:19.

to come down? It is difficult and hard for the Labour Party and this

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is not a criticism of Jeremy Corbyn because the Labour Party is in a

:09:25.:09:29.

strategic dilemma. Many Labour MPs, particularly in northern

:09:30.:09:30.

constituencies, Hussein numbers have to come down. It is easy to give a

:09:31.:09:37.

yes or no answer and Jeremy Corbyn on other occasions has said

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immigration is not too high but the problem is the top 25 Remain

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constituencies in the country are Labour and so are the top 25 Brexit

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constituencies, which is a serious problem and the degree in model in

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policy is probably to be expected given back to you are contending

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with that. Do you accept he modelled the policy? That Jeremy Corbyn has

:10:01.:10:05.

unravelled what was supposed to be the new policy? I don't and I do not

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think it is muddled. The model is the government failure to articulate

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a policy about how it will negotiate the new relationship with Europe. I

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wanted to pick up on something Phil said. He said that Labour

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politicians always retreat into talking about the exploitation of

:10:27.:10:31.

immigrants. It is about the exploitation of workers in this

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country who are being undercut by those coming in by the workers

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directive, the agencies bringing them in and exploiting them and

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using that to drive down standards and wages for British workers, which

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is what we object to. Arguably Ed Miliband had these policies. And we

:10:52.:10:57.

are with the current levels of net migration way beyond tens of

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thousands, which is the government level and Jeremy Corbyn suggested he

:11:01.:11:03.

would set a maximum earnings cap. Either you do a cap,

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or you look at the levels Other countries have got some

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policies developing this, and I think we need to consult

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with them and learn Because it can't be right that those

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who are actually doing the work are often living in work in poverty,

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whilst the chief executive Barry Gardner, do you support a

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maximum earnings cap? David Cameron first started talking about it. I

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think you look at the public sector and you have to ask yourself the

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question, why in the public sector you have chief executives of

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hospitals and other public sector bodies that are earning not just

:11:46.:11:49.

more than the Prime Minister but many times more than the Prime

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Minister. This is public money going to subsidise huge levels of wages

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and income, which I feel cannot be justified. You are talking about the

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public sector. Jeremy Corbyn seemed to be talking in general. Do you not

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supported in the private sector? The Labour Party is not against

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people'saspirations. It is an important distinction, do you want

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to see it in the private sector? We need to look at ways in which we can

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make society more equal and a cap might be one way of looking at that

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but it is not the way I would favour. I believe the way to address

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issues of inequality are do as the Labour Party has said, increase the

:12:36.:12:40.

national minimum wage to a reasonable level, ensure within the

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public sector you have ratios of earnings. But what was Jeremy Corbyn

:12:46.:12:51.

saying? In the private sector you address that through taxation and in

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particular... You would like higher taxation in the private sector but

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not a maximum earnings cap? Jeremy Corbyn did not make that clear. You

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think he was talking about the public sector, not about the private

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sector? Is that something you discussed with him in Shadow

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Cabinet? He made these remarks in the interview this morning and I

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have not been able to discuss it with him. This was something he has

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felt for some time. What is your response to the idea? One Labour

:13:27.:13:30.

Party source thought it was a bonkers idea and that Jeremy Corbyn

:13:31.:13:36.

had come up with that off the top of his head. Even in the interview he

:13:37.:13:42.

left himself plenty of room, saying an earnings cap all looking at

:13:43.:13:47.

ratios so I do not think we can take it as Labour Party policy. I largely

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agree with what Barry said but in defence of high wages in the public

:13:53.:13:56.

sector, bomb way we can improve the public sector in the past 20 years,

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and we have, is that people are paid a better wage than they used to be

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and in large measure that is defensible. I am sure there are

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cases we can pull out but as a rule I am pleased people can do public

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service jobs and be paid well. I have to end it there. Thanks.

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Yesterday, Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness resigned as Northern

:14:19.:14:20.

Ireland's Deputy First Minister in protest against how

:14:21.:14:22.

a renewable energy scheme was set up and funded -

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what has become known as the "cash for ash" scandal.

:14:26.:14:28.

Under Northern Ireland's power sharing arrangement,

:14:29.:14:31.

his decision to quit forces the resignation of the Democratic

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Unionist Party's First Minister, Arlene Foster.

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This in turn makes a snap election more likely.

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But how did a green energy policy lead to the collapse

:14:42.:14:44.

Martin McGuinness said the DUP's conduct over

:14:45.:14:50.

the Renewable Heat Incentive scheme was the main reason

:14:51.:14:52.

DUP leader Arlene Foster set up the scheme in 2012,

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But flaws left it open to abuse as claimants could earn more cash

:14:59.:15:05.

the more fuel they used, with the overspend estimated

:15:06.:15:08.

Mr McGuinness accused the DUP of refusing to recognise public

:15:09.:15:16.

anger and damaging trust in the Northern Ireland executive,

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adding that his resignation was designed to "call a halt

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Mrs Foster had resisted repeat calls to step aside,

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but Mr McGuinness's resignation means she automatically

:15:30.:15:31.

Northern Ireland's power-sharing agreement is designed in such a way

:15:32.:15:38.

that both nationalist and unionist communities must be

:15:39.:15:39.

If Sinn Fein doesn't nominate a replacement

:15:40.:15:46.

as Deputy First Minister - which Mr McGuinness says

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it won't do - then it becomes the responsibility

:15:50.:15:51.

of Northern Ireland Secretary James Brokenshire to call an election.

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The usual time period for an election campaign is six

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weeks, although the law allows some flexibility.

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But if a fresh election returns a similar result -

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and Sinn Fein and the DUP can't reach a power-sharing agreement -

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Mr Brokenshire has the power to suspend the devolved government

:16:09.:16:13.

and effectively restore direct rule - last in place in 2007.

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And within the next half hour the Northern Ireland Secretary

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is expected to make a statement to the House of Commons

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I'm joined now from Stormont by Sinn Fein Assembly

:16:25.:16:38.

Why did Mr McGuinness choose yesterday to resign? This context

:16:39.:16:52.

comes in the context of a number of serious financial scandals which

:16:53.:16:55.

have taken place in the north of Ireland over a period of years,

:16:56.:17:01.

known variously as red sky and under other revelations which have taken

:17:02.:17:07.

us to the heart of corruption within the Northern business and political

:17:08.:17:14.

class. RHI has been badly mishandled by the Democratic Unionist Party and

:17:15.:17:18.

as a result of their reckless approach to this issue and many

:17:19.:17:20.

other financial scandals which have beset the institutions, they have

:17:21.:17:26.

dragged us recklessly to a tipping point. And all of this comes in the

:17:27.:17:30.

context of a situation where the DUP have demonstrated utter contempt and

:17:31.:17:34.

arrogance towards all sections of the community here in the north of

:17:35.:17:41.

Ireland. In particular, the Republican and nationalist

:17:42.:17:43.

constituency in the north, but this also extends to people who are gay,

:17:44.:17:48.

people from the Lesbian and Gay community, towards women. We have a

:17:49.:17:54.

situation now where the basis of the Good Friday agreement, that

:17:55.:17:58.

principles and process have now been subject to absolute corruption. So

:17:59.:18:01.

there has been a complete breakdown in trust as far as you are

:18:02.:18:05.

concerned, and you have said that in the end, the financial scandal has

:18:06.:18:09.

acted as a tipping point. But why was the DUP's offer of a public

:18:10.:18:13.

inquiry into that scheme not sufficient for you? Because we

:18:14.:18:22.

invited the DUP leader to reflect on this over Christmas and we said she

:18:23.:18:28.

should step aside temporarily from her position as First Minister in

:18:29.:18:33.

order to allow for a robust, comprehensive, judge led

:18:34.:18:36.

investigation to get to the root of this scandal and ensure full

:18:37.:18:42.

discovery of all of the facts and the evidence that has led to a

:18:43.:18:47.

situation where the Northern executive faces the prospect of a

:18:48.:18:51.

half ?1 billion being taken from our block grant from our public

:18:52.:18:54.

expenditure settlement at a point in time when the British Conservative

:18:55.:18:58.

government continues with unremitting austerity policies. And

:18:59.:19:00.

the reckless decision to proceed with Brexit in relation to the

:19:01.:19:06.

Northern economy. But as far as you are concerned, was that not a

:19:07.:19:10.

counter-productive move for Martin McGuinness to resign? Now there will

:19:11.:19:13.

be no chance of agreeing an independent investigation of the

:19:14.:19:17.

type you have outlined, or recouping some of the scheme's losses, because

:19:18.:19:21.

all the parties are likely to be in election mode. That is entirely to

:19:22.:19:27.

miss the point. There is a huge and unprecedented public outrage in the

:19:28.:19:31.

north of Ireland in relation to this scandal. But you can't do anything

:19:32.:19:36.

now if you are in election mode. And there was a deepening angry about

:19:37.:19:41.

the abusive, arrogant and contemptuous treatment that the DUP

:19:42.:19:48.

have dished out to other parties and wider society. So now we are facing

:19:49.:19:52.

an election, and that will provide an opportunity for the people to

:19:53.:19:57.

speak and cast their verdict on this and tolerable and unacceptable

:19:58.:20:02.

political situation. I hear your anger, and you say that that also

:20:03.:20:07.

reflects great public anger, but the reality could be that once an

:20:08.:20:10.

election is over, we are likely to be in exactly the same position,

:20:11.:20:16.

because the two main parties will be yours and the DUP, and the terms you

:20:17.:20:19.

have used to describe your partners in power-sharing have been pretty

:20:20.:20:23.

forceful. How will you work together? It will change nothing.

:20:24.:20:29.

What needs to happen on the other side of an election is a process

:20:30.:20:35.

that ensures that we get back to an adherence to the faithful and full

:20:36.:20:38.

implementation of the Good Friday agreement. But if it is you and the

:20:39.:20:44.

DUP back together again, how would you do that? We need to have a

:20:45.:20:49.

situation where the Democratic Unionist Party and political

:20:50.:20:53.

unionism commit to equality, mutual respect and parity of esteem and

:20:54.:20:59.

decent treatment of all citizens and propriety in government in the

:21:00.:21:02.

aftermath of this election. Under circumstances where the DUP cannot

:21:03.:21:07.

sign up to that modest agenda, we will not have institutions, mad

:21:08.:21:10.

because Sinn Fein is not going back into a situation where the political

:21:11.:21:13.

institutions of our peace process continue to be abused. Declan

:21:14.:21:18.

kidney, thank you for joining us. We are joined now from the Central

:21:19.:21:22.

Lobby of the Houses of Parliament by the DUP's Chief Whip Jeffrey

:21:23.:21:26.

Donaldson. I am presuming you could hear the previous interview. You can

:21:27.:21:30.

hear the strength of the anger. Why did Arlene Foster not resign before

:21:31.:21:35.

she was pushed? Well, why would Arlene Foster resigned when there is

:21:36.:21:37.

no evidence that she has done anything wrong? Why would she resign

:21:38.:21:43.

at the behest of Sinn Fein when Martin McGuinness, the Deputy First

:21:44.:21:50.

Minister, was under scrutiny in the inquiry into bloody Sunday? Did he

:21:51.:21:52.

step aside during that inquiry, when it involved matters not about some

:21:53.:21:58.

heat incentive, but people who have lost our minds on the streets of

:21:59.:22:02.

Londonderry? He didn't step aside. So Sinn Fein and their double

:22:03.:22:06.

standards are breathtaking. That sounds like double standards being

:22:07.:22:10.

used as an excuse for her not to do what was the right thing to do as

:22:11.:22:15.

far as Sinn Fein are concerned. If she had stood aside, you could have

:22:16.:22:19.

avoided the resignation of Martin McGuinness and the bringing down of

:22:20.:22:24.

power-sharing. It is Sinn Fein who brought power-sharing down. They

:22:25.:22:27.

have torn up the Good Friday agreement and put the peace process

:22:28.:22:31.

at risk. It is Sinn Fein who have abandoned people today in Northern

:22:32.:22:35.

Ireland who faced welfare reform. It is Sinn Fein who have made it

:22:36.:22:40.

impossible to have an independent investigation into the RHI

:22:41.:22:43.

situation. All of these things have happened because Sinn Fein have

:22:44.:22:47.

walked away from the table. When you're in government, you have to

:22:48.:22:51.

take responsibility. You have to face the challenges. You don't run

:22:52.:22:56.

away from them. The DUP wants an independent investigation. Arlene

:22:57.:22:58.

Foster will cooperate fully with that investigation, but Sinn Fein

:22:59.:23:07.

have blocked it. But that is because trust had completely broken down

:23:08.:23:10.

according to Declan kidney. Do you accept his allegations that the DUP

:23:11.:23:14.

are no longer committed to the principles and values of the Good

:23:15.:23:18.

Friday agreement? You are not committed to equality and treating

:23:19.:23:21.

your power-sharing partners equally, and that is what has led to this

:23:22.:23:27.

state of affairs. That is absolute bunkum. Martin McGuinness, the

:23:28.:23:30.

Deputy First Minister, is the former chief of staff of a terrorist

:23:31.:23:33.

organisation that was responsible for the murder of thousands of

:23:34.:23:38.

citizens of Northern Ireland. The attempted murder of the father of

:23:39.:23:42.

the First Minister, Arlene Foster, they tried to kill Arlene Foster's

:23:43.:23:47.

father, the IRA, at his farm in co Fermanagh. And despite all of that,

:23:48.:23:53.

the DUP was prepared to move forward, to go into government with

:23:54.:23:59.

Martin McGuinness. But have you treated them equally? Please don't

:24:00.:24:04.

talk about trust. I am talking about what Declan Kearney said in the

:24:05.:24:08.

interview. I understand the pain for historical context that you have

:24:09.:24:11.

outlined. In power-sharing government, have you treated your

:24:12.:24:15.

power-sharing partner, Sinn Fein, in the sort of way that was outlined in

:24:16.:24:20.

the agreement? Of course we have. We share power. Sinn Fein have

:24:21.:24:25.

ministerial office in that government. But they are the ones

:24:26.:24:32.

who walked away from power-sharing. They are the ones who took about a

:24:33.:24:35.

Conservative government imposing austerity, but they have just handed

:24:36.:24:40.

power back to the very Conservative government that they despise. It

:24:41.:24:43.

will now be direct rule from Westminster. And you think that will

:24:44.:24:48.

now be necessary to break this impasse? I think we are in for a

:24:49.:24:52.

long period of direct rule now, and big decisions are going to be taken

:24:53.:24:56.

here at Westminster about Brexit, about the future of Northern

:24:57.:24:59.

Ireland, about the likelihood of every citizen, and Sinn Fein have

:25:00.:25:02.

just cut Northern Ireland out of that debate. They have removed

:25:03.:25:06.

Northern Ireland's voice from the table.

:25:07.:25:22.

There will be no devolved ministers at the table to speak for Northern

:25:23.:25:25.

Ireland. The DUP will be at Westminster. Unlike Sinn Fein, we

:25:26.:25:28.

take our seats here and we will use our influence at Westminster for the

:25:29.:25:30.

good of every citizen in Northern Ireland. But the people that Sinn

:25:31.:25:32.

Fein represent, whose livelihoods depend on the decisions that will be

:25:33.:25:35.

taken about Brexit, they will have no voice because Sinn Fein have

:25:36.:25:37.

abandoned them. They have walked away from power-sharing. They handed

:25:38.:25:39.

the reins of power back to the director or ministers, so let's not

:25:40.:25:42.

hear any crocodile tears from Sinn Fein about austerity or about

:25:43.:25:46.

Brexit. They have given up on power-sharing and abandoned the Good

:25:47.:25:50.

Friday agreement, not us. We will no doubt hear more from the Secretary

:25:51.:25:56.

of State later today. What is your reaction to what has happened, the

:25:57.:26:00.

crumbling of power-sharing? It really is a crumbling. It is a good

:26:01.:26:04.

principle in disputes like this that both sides are right. There is

:26:05.:26:08.

always something to be set on either side. Clearly, the DUP have not

:26:09.:26:12.

managed this well. One thing you can do early on with a dispute in

:26:13.:26:16.

politics is to concede a little bit and then try and move on. Clearly,

:26:17.:26:21.

something has escalated, so we have the pretext of an energy initiative,

:26:22.:26:26.

but it is a proxy for a series of other things. Do you think if Arlene

:26:27.:26:31.

Foster had moved aside earlier, it would have prevented Martin

:26:32.:26:35.

McGuinness from walking? It may have done. It is about trust. There is

:26:36.:26:41.

also a domestic situation, because the dish government now has to play

:26:42.:26:45.

an honest broker in the election, but the British government is

:26:46.:26:48.

heavily reliant on members of the DUP in British government affairs

:26:49.:26:53.

with its very small majority, so the trust in the British government to

:26:54.:26:56.

play that role is not as good as it needs to be. Let's leave it there.

:26:57.:26:59.

Let's turn now to the pressures on the NHS in England,

:27:00.:27:01.

and accident and emergency departments in particular.

:27:02.:27:03.

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt acknowledged yesterday that in some

:27:04.:27:05.

trusts the situation was "extremely fragile".

:27:06.:27:07.

He also seemed to indicate that the target of seeing 95%

:27:08.:27:10.

of patients in A within four hours may have to be

:27:11.:27:13.

changed to exclude those not in need of urgent care.

:27:14.:27:15.

Let's have a listen to Mr Hunt in the Commons.

:27:16.:27:22.

This Government is committed to maintaining and delivering

:27:23.:27:24.

that vital four-hour commitment to patients.

:27:25.:27:29.

But since it was announced in 2000, there are nearly nine million

:27:30.:27:32.

more visits to our A, up to 30% of whom NHS England

:27:33.:27:38.

estimate do not need to be there, and the tide is continuing to rise.

:27:39.:27:44.

So if we are going to protect our four-hour standard,

:27:45.:27:53.

we need to be clear it is a promise to sort out all urgent health

:27:54.:27:57.

problems within four hours, but not all health

:27:58.:27:59.

Is he now really telling patients that rather than trying to hit

:28:00.:28:02.

that four-hour target, the Government is now in fact

:28:03.:28:05.

If so, does NHS England support this move, and what guidance has he taken

:28:06.:28:11.

from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine that this

:28:12.:28:14.

is an appropriate change to the waiting time standard?

:28:15.:28:18.

In Scotland, we face the same problem of increased demand

:28:19.:28:22.

and shortage of doctors, yet 93.5% of our patients

:28:23.:28:25.

were seen within four hours in Christmas week,

:28:26.:28:29.

and the president of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine

:28:30.:28:33.

estimates that in areas of England it's between 50 and 60%.

:28:34.:28:36.

That difference is how it's organised.

:28:37.:28:38.

It's the fragmentation, it's the lack of integration.

:28:39.:28:40.

Will he confirm that he's just announced another significant

:28:41.:28:45.

watering down of the four-hour A target following a watering down

:28:46.:28:52.

by the coalition in their first year in office back in 2010?

:28:53.:28:56.

I've today recommitted the Government to that four-hour target.

:28:57.:28:58.

In just the answer before he spoke - maybe he wasn't listening -

:28:59.:29:02.

but I actually said that I thought it was one of the best things

:29:03.:29:05.

about the NHS that we have this four-hour promise.

:29:06.:29:07.

But the public will go to the place where it is easier to get in front

:29:08.:29:11.

of a doctor quickly, and if we don't recognise

:29:12.:29:17.

that there is an issue with the fact that a number of people who don't

:29:18.:29:20.

need to go to A are using those A, if we don't recognise that

:29:21.:29:24.

problem and try and address it, then we won't make A better

:29:25.:29:27.

We did ask to speak to a health minister, but none was forthcoming.

:29:28.:29:43.

We're joined now by the Conservative peer Andrew Lansley,

:29:44.:29:45.

Jeremy Hunt's predecessor as Health Secretary.

:29:46.:29:49.

In 2010, the NHS had record levels of patient satisfaction and low

:29:50.:29:55.

waiting lists. How have we gone from that to a health system being

:29:56.:29:58.

described by the Red Cross as being in a humanitarian crisis?

:29:59.:30:04.

Waiting times came down after 2010 but now, six, seven years in from

:30:05.:30:13.

the NHS living with cash increases in resources nearer to 2.5%, where

:30:14.:30:18.

previously they got cash increases year on year in the order of 9%.

:30:19.:30:25.

It is a money issue? There is a resources issue and organisation and

:30:26.:30:29.

efficiency issue. The NHS was required in the last parliament to

:30:30.:30:35.

deliver efficiencies and did so. It is being asked in this Parliament to

:30:36.:30:41.

deliver 22 billion. That is too ambitious. -- 22 million. When you

:30:42.:30:49.

look at accident and emergency in particular, money is being directed

:30:50.:30:52.

towards improving community services and hospitals are being left to live

:30:53.:30:57.

with what resources are available to them, which are inadequate. The

:30:58.:31:02.

resources in the community are not producing demand of hospitals. You

:31:03.:31:07.

have to reduce demand on hospitals. You conceded money is an issue and

:31:08.:31:11.

they are not getting increases in the way they used to get and there

:31:12.:31:17.

is less money around. To be fair, they are not asking for increases on

:31:18.:31:22.

that scale. They are asking for increases on what is being given and

:31:23.:31:27.

you have Tory MPs saying there is a sleight of hand on funding claims

:31:28.:31:31.

being made by the government, that's not as much money is going into the

:31:32.:31:37.

NHS is claimed. I understand that. In that sense, when I agreed the

:31:38.:31:44.

ring-fence with George Osborne several years ago, it included

:31:45.:31:48.

things like public health and education and training. So, I do

:31:49.:31:53.

agree to that extent, but we are talking about A and the issue is

:31:54.:31:59.

there was good information in the statement yesterday but I don't

:32:00.:32:02.

think it addressed the three things that matter, one is we have been

:32:03.:32:07.

looking... I can remember trying to do it for more consultants, senior

:32:08.:32:13.

doctors in A We should put senior decision makers at the front door of

:32:14.:32:20.

A A consultants, GPs, who can see patients quickly and determine

:32:21.:32:23.

what the nature of the response should be. Secondly, we need to

:32:24.:32:29.

improve social care, the ability for people to be discharged from

:32:30.:32:33.

hospital and that is where the NHS is asking for more money, to go into

:32:34.:32:38.

the social care system so patients can be discharged and looked after

:32:39.:32:43.

better in the community. Thirdly, in the community, the 111 system in

:32:44.:32:50.

particular, and there are other specs, is already receiving

:32:51.:32:56.

three-time as many calls as the old NHS Direct -- other aspects. Is

:32:57.:33:06.

Jeremy Hunt considering relaxing the four-hour target? I don't think he

:33:07.:33:12.

is. I think he is trying to get across people constantly talk about

:33:13.:33:15.

it as four hours to be seen, but it isn't. To be discharged? Treated and

:33:16.:33:21.

discharged. Do you think you should relax it? I relaxed it to 95%. It is

:33:22.:33:28.

missing the point to talk about moving the goalposts. More relevant

:33:29.:33:35.

is let's say there are 30% who should not be in A The point is

:33:36.:33:40.

to create a system at the front door, preferably outside it, where

:33:41.:33:45.

people do not feel the need to arrive at A, or if they do, they

:33:46.:33:51.

are handled in a GP setting, primary care setting, not become part of the

:33:52.:33:56.

statistics. Jeremy Hunt has called people who use A drug selfish and

:33:57.:34:01.

the crisis one of public responsibility. Is this the public's

:34:02.:34:05.

fault? Where else can they go if they do not go to A at night? One

:34:06.:34:11.

reason the demand for A has risen over 15 years is because they can

:34:12.:34:16.

rely on it to be open and be looked after there and in 2004, the last

:34:17.:34:21.

Labour government, through the GP contract removed the requirement. We

:34:22.:34:27.

are in 2017. Isn't that the point, the reason A is for with people

:34:28.:34:32.

coming is because there is nowhere else to go because social care is

:34:33.:34:36.

not dealing with elderly people with chronic conditions, but is it just

:34:37.:34:39.

about money? It is not just about money at it is about money. Andrew

:34:40.:34:45.

is right to say social care is crucial in the health service and it

:34:46.:34:50.

is fair to say the GP contract took away a service that meant people

:34:51.:34:56.

when they are worried go to A It is understandable they do. Plenty of

:34:57.:35:01.

us have done it. At a system level it makes no sense. The NHS is going

:35:02.:35:05.

through its busiest days it ever has. It needs money but to get near

:35:06.:35:16.

the 22 billion of efficiency savings, it needs reform. The

:35:17.:35:22.

appetite for reform is not great. Sometimes it feels in the NHS there

:35:23.:35:26.

is no money and they say we cannot reform or there is money and they

:35:27.:35:31.

say they don't need to. What is the solution? Did Jeremy Hunt offer up a

:35:32.:35:38.

solution in Parliament? He didn't. Inside the NHS and with its many

:35:39.:35:43.

stakeholders, there has been a substantial consultation on urgent

:35:44.:35:47.

and emergency care and I think the results will be published shortly

:35:48.:35:50.

and on things like the 111 system and how it could deploy a response

:35:51.:35:55.

in the community and provide clinical support may well have an

:35:56.:36:01.

impact. We need to get, like with the major trauma centres, more

:36:02.:36:08.

high-quality doctors into A Is Theresa May taking this issue

:36:09.:36:14.

seriously enough? I think she has taken it seriously, but, when you

:36:15.:36:18.

look at yesterday, she took seriously the mental health issues.

:36:19.:36:22.

But did not put much money behind it. But there was a considerable

:36:23.:36:29.

additional... The wider issue? Generally with the NHS, she and

:36:30.:36:33.

Philip Hammond are in the position where they have been responsible for

:36:34.:36:37.

large public services, who circumstances are different but

:36:38.:36:43.

actually delivered large reductions in spending and maintained service

:36:44.:36:48.

levels and improve satisfaction. For the NHS, it has never been that

:36:49.:36:53.

simple. Theresa May will have to move from thinking about it in those

:36:54.:36:56.

terms to thinking about the NHS in its proper terms. You are not

:36:57.:37:02.

surprised to see nothing for social care in the Autumn Statement? I was

:37:03.:37:06.

surprised because I cannot imagine any MP in any constituency is not

:37:07.:37:13.

aware of the fact a significant proportion, in some places as many

:37:14.:37:17.

as half of the people who used to rely on local authority support, not

:37:18.:37:24.

accessing it any more. What happens? Those people have a crisis and end

:37:25.:37:28.

up in A and in the past with social care support from the local

:37:29.:37:31.

authority they might have been looked after in the community.

:37:32.:37:33.

Now, whatever happened to the Blairites

:37:34.:37:34.

is a cry you're unlikely to hear at many local Labour Party

:37:35.:37:37.

But at one point, Tony Blair, who you may remember led the party

:37:38.:37:41.

to three general election victories, was all the rage - referred

:37:42.:37:44.

to as the Master even by political opponents like David Cameron

:37:45.:37:46.

So why did Tony Blair and his third way fall out of fashion

:37:47.:37:52.

There's some flash photography now as Mark Lobel looks back

:37:53.:37:55.

to when we were told things could only get better.

:37:56.:37:58.

But now many big names from Tony Blair's former inner

:37:59.:38:09.

circle are in the Lords or out of party politics altogether.

:38:10.:38:17.

At this restaurant in Westminster last month, that Blairite anthem

:38:18.:38:20.

was resurrected for karaoke by nostalgic Labour MPs

:38:21.:38:22.

Jeremy Corbyn had already left by the time his colleagues took

:38:23.:38:30.

centre stage to hark back to election-winning days.

:38:31.:38:33.

Tony Blair's former flatmate Lord Falconer was at the party,

:38:34.:38:38.

but assures me he didn't choose the song or sing along.

:38:39.:38:42.

He once sat in Tony Blair's Cabinet and, until recently,

:38:43.:38:56.

Hilary Benn, Rosie Winterton, Andy Burnham, Charlie Falconer,

:38:57.:39:01.

Now, we've all gone, because we all left in the June

:39:02.:39:05.

We're also all getting old, so it's time now for younger

:39:06.:39:09.

Looking back, Lord Falconer thinks the beginning of the end

:39:10.:39:12.

of New Labour came in 2008, when the financial crash

:39:13.:39:19.

suddenly changed voters' priorities from jobs,

:39:20.:39:21.

fair wages and better public services.

:39:22.:39:23.

People believing that the Government is not just not delivering for them,

:39:24.:39:27.

it's delivering distinctly worse than it was before,

:39:28.:39:32.

that's the landscape in which the Labour Party has now

:39:33.:39:35.

Things also got worse for Blairites when David Miliband lost

:39:36.:39:40.

to his brother in the battle to lead Labour following Gordon Brown,

:39:41.:39:44.

after which first Ed Miliband and then Jeremy Corbyn distanced

:39:45.:39:47.

The whole Jeremy Corbyn phenomenon is just a reaction

:39:48.:39:53.

against Tony Blair and everything he stood for and is built

:39:54.:39:58.

on the assumption that everything New Labour did is some kind

:39:59.:40:03.

of compromise with the Tories, it was in effect a Conservative

:40:04.:40:06.

government for 13 years, and needs to be rejected,

:40:07.:40:08.

And as if being a Blairite wasn't getting hard enough

:40:09.:40:15.

as Labour drifted left, after Britain voted to leave the EU

:40:16.:40:18.

in June, divisions emerged between Tony Blair and some

:40:19.:40:20.

The split in the Blairites over immigration is completely

:40:21.:40:26.

I think it has ended the idea that there is a sort

:40:27.:40:32.

As for Tony Blair himself, he is now preparing for what he insists is not

:40:33.:40:40.

a return to frontline politics with a ?9 million personal war chest

:40:41.:40:43.

frustrated by where Jeremy Corbyn has taken the party.

:40:44.:40:53.

Mr Blair wrote in his autobiography of another adversary, Gordon Brown,

:40:54.:40:56.

saying it was far better he was kept inside the tent and constrained,

:40:57.:41:04.

than outside and let loose, or, worse, becoming a figurehead

:41:05.:41:07.

for a far more damaging force well to the left.

:41:08.:41:10.

Now, it seems, it's Mr Blair and his supporters that find

:41:11.:41:12.

Our guest of the day Phil Collins is lucky enough to be one of that hardy

:41:13.:41:29.

band, the Blairites. A diminishing number, why? This is your answer to

:41:30.:41:36.

what became of us, we are on the Daily Politics. A good endeavour.

:41:37.:41:41.

Where did it all go wrong? Why did it fall so spectacularly out of

:41:42.:41:46.

fashion? It always does, nothing ever lasts for ever. Anyway I would

:41:47.:41:52.

like to question the idea they did disappear. Simon Stephens 's chief

:41:53.:41:56.

executive of the NHS and Andrey Vdovin this, government

:41:57.:42:04.

infrastructures are. Alain -- James Purnell. They have gone into what

:42:05.:42:10.

you might call organisations connected to politics but in terms

:42:11.:42:15.

of Blairites, what happened? Two things happened and one is

:42:16.:42:19.

political, a party tires of it. The Blair mission in the Labour Party

:42:20.:42:24.

was hardly ever welcomed by the Labour Party, it was doing something

:42:25.:42:28.

difficult and over time the mission got stale and the party tired of it,

:42:29.:42:34.

but also intellectually, things shift, questions change, things that

:42:35.:42:37.

brought you into power different and the combination, the way people got

:42:38.:42:44.

tired of it and of course Iraq was important in fostering that mood,

:42:45.:42:49.

but also the fact things change. If Blair or the other Blairites were in

:42:50.:42:55.

politics now and some still are, things they will be talking about

:42:56.:42:59.

will be different from 1994. Would it be different on the issue of

:43:00.:43:03.

immigration, which you said at the beginning there is no coherent group

:43:04.:43:07.

in labour who believe the same thing on immigration? I think it would be

:43:08.:43:12.

different. The Labour Party is in a difficult place on immigration

:43:13.:43:15.

because it has a split in the vote and does not know what to do

:43:16.:43:22.

politically and intellectually. I do not think the category of Blairite

:43:23.:43:25.

is useful for thinking about immigration within the party. Do you

:43:26.:43:31.

blame anyone for the disappearance of that political movement, the

:43:32.:43:34.

social Democratic movement? It depends whether you talk about the

:43:35.:43:39.

Labour Party's predicament, or the absence of a wink after Tony Blair.

:43:40.:43:45.

Wider, there are a series of guilty people and it has to be shared. The

:43:46.:43:49.

party moved from a winning position on to Gordon Brown and again under

:43:50.:43:54.

Ed Miliband, and has ended up in a place of catastrophic defeat under

:43:55.:43:58.

Jeremy Corbyn. He denies that and says he will stick as leader

:43:59.:44:03.

whatever the polls say because of his two successful leadership

:44:04.:44:07.

campaign wins. He is at 28% in opinion polls with a government that

:44:08.:44:11.

has problems, a precedent for a catastrophic defeat. What do you

:44:12.:44:16.

think of his campaign announcement that they are going to campaign war

:44:17.:44:22.

in the style of Donald Trump, much more aggressive against mainstream

:44:23.:44:26.

media, along the lines of antiestablishment, a more populist

:44:27.:44:30.

style? Will it help in? I don't know. It probably cannot get worse.

:44:31.:44:37.

There are always two aspects to a successful movement and one is the

:44:38.:44:41.

message you have got. I did not notice him trying mainstream

:44:42.:44:45.

proestablishment politics so far but you have the question of the

:44:46.:44:50.

messenger. Can he carried that idea? I am not sure. The interesting

:44:51.:44:55.

question is if the left found a charismatic brilliant leader who

:44:56.:45:00.

tried that kind of politics. You think one of the problems for Tony

:45:01.:45:05.

Blair and Gordon Brown, in good times, we can afford to be social

:45:06.:45:10.

Democrats and you can spend more on health and education. It becomes

:45:11.:45:13.

tougher and less popular as a political brand when things are

:45:14.:45:17.

tight, hence the crash. Without question. The Labour parter never

:45:18.:45:22.

really got to grips with the question of what social democracy

:45:23.:45:27.

means when they haven't got any money. -- the Labour Party. That is

:45:28.:45:32.

why the movement, a good times movement, and to some extent you

:45:33.:45:35.

have to give credit to Gordon Brown, to them for those good times, you

:45:36.:45:40.

cannot detach them, they were running the economy, but it was

:45:41.:45:43.

something easier to be in government with a lot of money around, without

:45:44.:45:45.

doubt. Now, let's talk about

:45:46.:45:47.

the centuries-old English It's a tradition that's

:45:48.:45:52.

still going strong, but it seems not More than a dozen Morris groups,

:45:53.:45:57.

or sides, as they're known, were dancing in Birmingham this

:45:58.:46:00.

weekend to mark the start But the Alvechurch group,

:46:01.:46:03.

which features dancers with black painted faces,

:46:04.:46:05.

was forced to abandon its performance after onlookers

:46:06.:46:07.

accused them of being racist. Here's some mobile phone

:46:08.:46:09.

footage posted to YouTube. We're joined now by Conservative

:46:10.:46:46.

MP Michael Fabricant, And by Lester Holloway, a campaigner

:46:47.:46:49.

with the race-equality think-tank, Lester Holloway, you spent some time

:46:50.:47:05.

researching the art of vacuuming faces when dancing. Do you believe

:47:06.:47:11.

it has racial connotations? -- blackening faces. Yes, I do. There

:47:12.:47:17.

has been enough research to show that there has been overlapped with

:47:18.:47:22.

the minstrels from the United States and has connotations with

:47:23.:47:26.

representation of and characterisation of black people.

:47:27.:47:30.

Having said that, not all Morris dancers do black up, only a section

:47:31.:47:35.

of them do. There are a lot of different theories as to how the

:47:36.:47:38.

tradition came about. But I think if you are going into the centre of one

:47:39.:47:41.

of the most multicultural cities in the case of Birmingham, they need to

:47:42.:47:47.

understand how people feel about the whole concept of black facing, that

:47:48.:47:52.

it is offensive to black people, because it comes

:47:53.:48:02.

it is offensive to black people, going through history. So it may be

:48:03.:48:04.

traditional and part of the heritage of some Morris dancing, but you can

:48:05.:48:08.

see how it could be offensive. I could understand it if we were

:48:09.:48:12.

talking about the Black minstrels, who were deliberately making

:48:13.:48:15.

themselves out to be slaves and Afro-Caribbean is, but these are

:48:16.:48:20.

not. These are guys who don't paint their hands. They wear blonde hair,

:48:21.:48:27.

a bit like me, really. There is no intention to dress as a black

:48:28.:48:32.

person. But they are still blackening their faces. Only their

:48:33.:48:37.

faces. I am a Morris dance. I do it in Litchfield, and there is no

:48:38.:48:41.

intention to make out that you are a black person. When people black up

:48:42.:48:47.

their faces, do they know what the purpose is? I know what it is. It

:48:48.:48:53.

was set up in the 15 50s, when people went begging, and they did it

:48:54.:48:57.

to disguise their faces, because it could mean death if you were

:48:58.:49:00.

begging. What is happening now is nonsense. There was a case about

:49:01.:49:05.

three months ago where the MoD pulled a photograph they were going

:49:06.:49:09.

to use in an advert of a Royal Marine with his black camouflage

:49:10.:49:11.

paint on, and they thought that would be offensive. Let's get real

:49:12.:49:17.

about this. This is not entirely correct. There are different

:49:18.:49:20.

theories as to how black facing came about, but if you take the example

:49:21.:49:25.

of Padstow in Cornwall, they don Afro wigs and are used to sing songs

:49:26.:49:29.

which have the M word in it and are used to teach them in school in the

:49:30.:49:35.

1980s. They have changed the name of the day, but the traditions of the

:49:36.:49:39.

same. As a country, we are becoming more multicultural. The whole

:49:40.:49:43.

concept of blackfacing is offensive, so I think there has to be a

:49:44.:49:47.

recognition that this is something which is out of step. For example,

:49:48.:49:52.

if you take the depiction of Jewish people in the character Shylock, or

:49:53.:49:59.

indeed Fagin in Oliver Twist, the negative portrayal of Jewish people

:50:00.:50:04.

has been downplayed, as a result of our changing society. But that is a

:50:05.:50:09.

stereotype, which is slightly different. Are you saying the Morris

:50:10.:50:14.

dancers are intentionally upholding a negative stereotype of black

:50:15.:50:19.

people? I am not saying that, because many of the Morris dancers

:50:20.:50:22.

themselves do not believe that that is what they are doing. Is that what

:50:23.:50:27.

this is about? I think the authors such as Jill Buckland and Patricia

:50:28.:50:32.

Baker have chronicled the link between portrayals of African people

:50:33.:50:43.

and Morris dancing. Michael Fabricant, in 2017, should we really

:50:44.:50:47.

expect people blacking their faces for whatever reason, even if there

:50:48.:50:50.

is no racist intent, and it seems from what you're saying, there

:50:51.:50:53.

isn't, but they should still be able to come out at in public and dance

:50:54.:50:59.

in this way? If they are trying to make out that they are black people,

:51:00.:51:03.

that is wrong and offensive and I would find it offensive. But no one

:51:04.:51:08.

knows the history. But the Alvechurch lot, whom I know well,

:51:09.:51:12.

they don't look remotely as if they are being Afro-Caribbean is all

:51:13.:51:16.

black people. They do it roughly in the streets. As I said earlier, they

:51:17.:51:20.

don't cover their hands or legs, because part of their legs are

:51:21.:51:25.

showing as well. There is no intention by them... At the end of

:51:26.:51:29.

the day, we got some traditions. We shouldn't be racist in any way. We

:51:30.:51:33.

are multicultural and we should rejoice in that fact. But come on,

:51:34.:51:37.

we have got to be realistic. England is England and we should allow for

:51:38.:51:42.

that. Why can't we have historical traditions in the way the Morris

:51:43.:51:46.

dancers are portraying it? I don't think people are arguing that it

:51:47.:51:50.

should not carry on. So you are not calling for it to be banned?

:51:51.:51:58.

Absolutely not. But when you are coming into the centre of Birmingham

:51:59.:52:03.

and blacking up, it is not surprising that there will be a

:52:04.:52:08.

negative reaction. So you want it banned in big metropolitan areas

:52:09.:52:12.

where it could cause offence if there is a diverse population? We

:52:13.:52:17.

know it causes offence and any blackfacing that takes place in a

:52:18.:52:20.

multicultural area will do that. I am not in favour of banning it, but

:52:21.:52:26.

am in favour of Michael think you'd think it is ridiculous. What is the

:52:27.:52:31.

point? I could live without this tradition, if I am honest. If it

:52:32.:52:35.

causes offence, why not voluntarily think, I may not do this? We have in

:52:36.:52:46.

Lichfield the green man Barrett, and it is led by a man with a green

:52:47.:52:53.

face. He is a pagan. Then we have Lichfield Cathedral, and I could

:52:54.:52:55.

imagine if we go by your argument that the Bishop of Lichfield and the

:52:56.:53:00.

Dean of Lichfield Cathedral might say, I am offended. Anyone can be

:53:01.:53:05.

offended about anything if they choose to be. We have got to be

:53:06.:53:10.

sensible about some of these things. Which is what I am asking you to be.

:53:11.:53:14.

It should be done by a voluntary transaction, I don't want to ban

:53:15.:53:18.

anything, but why not just not do it? Because it is a tradition and

:53:19.:53:25.

they are not blacking up fully. And I agree with Lester Holloway with

:53:26.:53:28.

what he was saying about the Padstow people, who do try and make out that

:53:29.:53:35.

they are back people. But the Alvechurch lot don't even remotely

:53:36.:53:40.

looked like black people. Now, you do Morris dancing. Do you black up

:53:41.:53:45.

your face? No, I belong to a different group and I am afraid I am

:53:46.:53:50.

a whitey. Thank you both for coming in.

:53:51.:53:52.

Now, I have bad news for fans of the more

:53:53.:53:55.

found standing at parliamentary elections and by-elections,

:53:56.:53:58.

often with little hope of winning, but high hopes of wearing silly

:53:59.:54:01.

Yes, Bus Pass Elvis, otherwise known as Lord Biro,

:54:02.:54:05.

leader of the Bus-pass Elvis Party, the Elvis Defence League,

:54:06.:54:08.

the Militant Elvis Anti-Tesco Popular Front

:54:09.:54:13.

and the Militant Elvis Anti-HS2 party - amongst others -

:54:14.:54:16.

is planning to hang up his bus pass and his jumpsuit

:54:17.:54:19.

Let's have a look at a few of the elections where he has tried

:54:20.:54:24.

Bishop, David Lawrence, Bus Pass Elvis Party, 67. Bishop, David

:54:25.:55:00.

Lawrence, Bus Pass Elvis Party, 87. Bishop, David Lawrence, Elvis loves

:55:01.:55:10.

pets party, 72 votes. Bishop, David Lawrence, Bus Pass Elvis Party, 61.

:55:11.:55:17.

Bishop, David Lawrence, Bus Pass Elvis Party, 85.

:55:18.:55:29.

And David Bishop - or should I call him Lord Biro -

:55:30.:55:32.

of the Bus Pass Elvis Party joins us now from Nottingham.

:55:33.:55:40.

Why did you decide to stand for the first time back in pattern in 1997?

:55:41.:55:47.

I was fed up with sitting in the pub, moaning about what was going on

:55:48.:55:51.

in the outside world and all the sleaze in cash for questions. So you

:55:52.:55:56.

put your money where your mouth was, literally. What was it like? That

:55:57.:56:01.

was an exciting election. It opened my eyes up to what was going on and

:56:02.:56:04.

it was probably the most exciting election I have ever stood in. I met

:56:05.:56:10.

Neil Hamilton not long ago, a couple of years back in Eastleigh, and he

:56:11.:56:14.

said to me, you look more respectable now. And I said, so do

:56:15.:56:20.

you! Somebody said to me, you should have said, don't go by what you see.

:56:21.:56:29.

But it was nice to see him again. For old times sake. Did you buy him

:56:30.:56:34.

a drink? No, he ought to have bought me one! He has more money than I

:56:35.:56:40.

have got. He is an MEP, isn't he? Or in the Welsh assembly. He is the

:56:41.:56:44.

leader of Ukip in the wash assembly. Have any of your policies been

:56:45.:56:49.

picked up or used by the main political parties? I think it has

:56:50.:56:56.

made people think about saving public lavatories from extinction. I

:56:57.:57:00.

think it has made people think, but I don't think the major parties have

:57:01.:57:04.

picked up on the things I stood for and I still think they are

:57:05.:57:10.

important. Which once? Well, saving public lavatories from extinction,

:57:11.:57:14.

saving rural buses from extinction, banning airguns, because pets get

:57:15.:57:19.

shot every day. I have been shot by an airgun where I live in

:57:20.:57:22.

Nottingham. Obviously, some of them are more frivolous, like banning the

:57:23.:57:27.

builder's bomb because it upsets old ladies. That made people laugh in

:57:28.:57:32.

Newark. Why are you giving it up? It all sounds like too much fun. Well,

:57:33.:57:37.

I am getting old, plus I don't want to become part of the electoral

:57:38.:57:41.

wallpaper, not him again and the rest of it. But I am still

:57:42.:57:44.

registered with the electoral commission. I am still going to

:57:45.:57:48.

campaign on issues that I believe in, like when I stood in Sleaford

:57:49.:57:54.

recently. I found all the red telephone boxes were going to be

:57:55.:57:57.

closed. One council so that everybody has got a MOBO and I

:57:58.:58:00.

thought that wasn't true, so I will still aim to go out to Skegness and

:58:01.:58:06.

a bit of campaigning. So you are not giving up. What was your highest

:58:07.:58:11.

voting tally? I got 320 votes when I stood for the militant Elvis

:58:12.:58:16.

anti-Tesco popular front in the local elections. That was the high

:58:17.:58:22.

point. Tesco were going to open the second biggest Tesco in the East

:58:23.:58:24.

Midlands, and there was an outcry from the local traders, so I decided

:58:25.:58:30.

to have a go with the slogan, Alvis wouldn't be seen dead in Tesco. And

:58:31.:58:34.

I got the most votes I have ever got. David Bishop, would you be

:58:35.:58:42.

sorry to see him go? Absolutely. The public lavatories policy is an

:58:43.:58:46.

absolute winner. David Bishop, enjoy your retirement and thanks for

:58:47.:58:47.

coming on. The One O'Clock News is starting

:58:48.:58:49.

over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow

:58:50.:58:53.

with Andrew for live coverage told through recordings

:58:54.:58:56.

he made over decades. Troubled, tragic,

:58:57.:59:08.

utterly compelling. Everybody's got a story to tell,

:59:09.:59:14.

something they're hiding.

:59:15.:59:18.

Jo Coburn is joined by Times columnist Phil Collins to discuss the latest news from Westminster, including Jeremy Corbyn's speech on Brexit and the fallout from Martin McGuinness' resignation as deputy first minister of Northern Ireland. Plus she speaks to former health secretary Lord Lansley to about the NHS.