Abdul Mawgoud Dardery - Freedom and Justice Party MP, Egypt HARDtalk

What now for the Muslim Brotherhood in each of and its political wing

the Freedom and Justice Party? Rarely has the fall from power of a

party been so quick, dramatic and violent. On the first anniversary of

Mohamed Morsi's election, millions took the streets against them,

precipitating his removal by the army. Since then, thousands of

members and supporters have been arrested, including nearly all the

Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, a member of Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, a member of

the now suspended parliament. What is the brotherhood's next move?

Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, welcome to HARDtalk. They keep having me.

Mohamed Morsi in power for a year, Mohamed Morsi in power for a year,

millions came out on Why did you think the Muslim

Brotherhood got it wrong? They not get it wrong. Millions were in

the streets against them, but there were millions on the streets in

was created in the revolution. was

People have the right to protest. People have the right to protest.

This is something good. When the rebellion came out in that massive

Morsi, there were 14 million on the Morsi, there were 14 million on the

million signatures gathered It is a

million signatures gathered against. The other group gathered 26

million. If we play the number game, the Egyptian democracy is listless.

The ballot is the way to go. It was The ballot is the way to go. It was

a creation to justify the coup. a creation to justify the coup. It

cannot be justified. They came out in rebellion before Mohamed Morsi

was removed from power by the army. It attracted people from all parts

of society in Egypt. The point they were making is — look, there were

some people who backed him originally because one of the other

contenders were seen as a member of the former regime. They say they

were alienating. were alienating. When people

realised that the coup was behind it, people rejected it, even those

who took part are joining the it, people rejected it, even those

pro—democracy anti— coup Alliance. They ask you why you thought he got

it wrong, look at a poll by the addiction Centre for Public opinion

research, it is independent and nonpartisan. They said from a high

of 97% after 80 of 97% after 80 days in office, one

year later, only 32% of people approve of what the President was

doing. That is a fantastic drop. That is what democracy is all about.

The numbers go up sometimes, they go down sometimes. The head of the

system came down, but the rest of the system was that and was trying

to block President Morsi from delivering what the revolution

expected us to deliver. I will tell you one reason why there was a

dramatic drop in their popularity, dramatic drop in their popularity,

between April and May, most and the poll questions Egyptians

between April and May, most respondents were concerned that the

Muslim Brotherhood is trying to is the most the state and control

of Egypt, from 1923 when the British of Egypt, from 1923 when the British

presence was that, it is stated clearly that the majority of

Egyptians are Muslims. There is Egyptians are Muslims. There is no

need to is the mice. What we want to do was protect the people. It is the

will of the people that was sabotaged. That is the message it

had constantly given. It is the had constantly given. It is the real

reason. The fact is this, Mohamed Morsi got only 52% in that

election. It shouldn't be the tyranny of the majority that four

people out of five, sorry, 50% should tell Egyptian society what is

going on. It was democracy. He received 52%. He had the right to

run the country. Ignore the 48% run the country. Ignore the 48% that

didn't vote for him? It was didn't vote for him? It was

important to develop this culture that was absent during the previous

years. The President invited people for dialogue and said he would go to

them and have dialogue for the future of the ditch. It was an

invitation to all of Egyptians, not invitation to all of Egyptians, not

a military coup. But the military coup that imprison thousands of

people for nothing but their political actions. We are still just

looking at the event of up to this. The point and try to make is that

the Muslim Brotherhood used that 52% to not run an inclusive government.

David Cameron said after the removal, yes, he has a democratic

mandate, but democracy also means ensuring that everybody has Arab

leaders are responsive to concerns. boys —— has a voice and

leaders are responsive to concerns. The numbers of ministers in the

Egyptian government under President Morsi, the number of ministers is

38. How many of them were from the party? No more than 11. Look at the

governors in the country. How many were that? 27, no more than 13 were

members. You mention the governors, unit Mohamed Morsi created a great

deal of controversy when he deal of controversy when he

nominated the Minister of Luxor. He nominated the Minister of Luxor. He

was part of a party was part of a party that was

responsible for the killing of tourists in 1997. This is a man

appointed to run Luxor? He was not part of the crime. He was forced to

step down, is that the Kennett person's for Mohamed Morsi to

bring's there is to be violent groups, he brought them into the

process. He should be thanked for it. He wanted to prove that the

Islamic group is changing its Islamic group is changing its

ideology and is willing to welcome tourists. This is a city that is

dependent on tourism, and you bring in a man who was a member of a

party, I am not saying he party, I am not saying he was

responsible, but the party was responsible for killing tourists.

People change. He was under pressure and he steps down. The point a

making is, when Mohamed Morsi was removed, it did not provoke the

outcry that you might have hoped and expected, precisely because people

are not thinking was running an inclusive government. The UN foreign

policy chipset I hope the new inclusive government. The UN foreign

policy chipset I hope the new administration will be completely

inclusive and respect fundamental rights, freedoms and rule of law and

halt authorities to account. This is very unfortunate as a statesman. You

can not replace democracy through a coup. A coup is against democracy.

Show me a coup in the world that supported democracy. President Mossi

removed through democratic process. supported the people. If

removed through democratic process. Seeing that there were millions

against them, this is only one perspective. We need to look

day and every night protesting the other. There

day and every night protesting the crew. We will never go back to the

old regime, we will never accept a police state. It is a crime against

is, a crime against the will of the is, a crime against the will of the

Egyptian people. Mohamed Morsi and his people were polarising the

differences of the people. When differences of the people. When he

was alerted to this fact, he did not listen. He did not try to change

things. It is almost the opposite, the country was polarised. The

country came to be polarised right after the revolution. That is fine.

Healthy polarisation is fine so that Healthy polarisation is fine so that

democracy, which had not have the culture of democracy, now we have

it, we are polarised. We can move forward to democracy. The only way

is dialogue, not a coup. A queue is not an alternative. You have made

mistakes in the lead up to the removal of Mohamed Morsi. For

example, the former Egyptian Foreign Minister and former head of the Arab

league said he was going to have a meeting with a senior leader of the

Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo. He said, look, will have a conversation

of lessons, they disagreed on some of lessons, they disagreed on some

the impression that they were not in the impression

the mood for changing. That is his the mood for changing. That is his

perspective of what was said. the mood for changing. That is his

was a month before Mohamed Morsi was removed? We are talking about the

elected President. If people want to elected President. If people want to

talk to him, they should talk to the president. He is a powerful man in

the Muslim Brotherhood. He is not the President. He was speaking on

behalf of the movement. We make a behalf of the movement. We make

distinction... Why didn't you listen distinction... Why didn't you listen

to what was being said? The maker movement between the movement, the

presidency and the party. There are presidency and the party. There are

times for national dialogue. You talk to groups of people, he was

when to go to them, rather than them when to go to them, rather than them

coming to us. The importance of dialogue and the willingness to be

able to come to a compromise with other parties. He was called the new

pharaoh. We had dialogue is's influential people saying this was

the new Ferro. He left the country, look at what he did after. Because

of the coup. We have to look at from a comparative perspective. Let

us compare what happened in the first year. In the first year, we

feel the sense of belonging. We feel the sense of belonging. We have

the freedom to move around and discuss things were the people who

do not have the chance to discuss their political future before. We

had a great year. You squandered the year. It was the forces of the ex—

regime. Those remnants of the old regime, it was an alliance between

the military, the ex— regime... You could have brushed them away, you

work with them. We wanted to reform state bureaucracy, we had

corruption. That is why we had a revolution. He did not work with

them. The body charged with drying up a new constitution, or the non—

Islamist members left. They did not Islamist members left. They did not

want to stay with you because they thought you were monopolising the

working relations with them. We have working relations with them. We have

a six—month period. They only walked drafted the Constitution together.

Most of the articles came from the Liberal size and the other side. The

Constitution was presented to the Egyptian people. 60% of those voted

for the Constitution. Egyptian people. 60% of those voted

to come and get rid of it? What was the turnout? It was 30%. In a

democracy, he would invite people to vote. Those who come are welcome. It

had a mandate that 33% of the had a mandate that 33% of the

electorate gives you a mandate to radically change the Constitution?

There is a mechanism in the There is a mechanism in the

Constitution that it can be changed again and again. That is why wanted

the election to go forward, so that the will of the people can be

represented and Parliament can change any article in the

Morsi was accused of being Morsi was accused of being

authoritarian, allowing greater powers for himself, including in

unity from prosecution. And people said, look, this is a man who we

cannot trust. Who are those people? Those are his political opponents.

expected, —— respected, but let us expected, —— respected, but let us

not believe just what we are told. Mohamed Morsi did not do anything

for his own sake. He wanted to protect Egyptian democracy. We had

corrupt people and he wanted to protect the will of the people. The

committee writes the Egyptian committee

constitution. Look at what happens, constitution. Look at what happens,

who write the constitution. They are who write the constitution. They

not inclusive of... The Islamist not inclusive of... The Islamist

the Egyptian people to the respect the Egyptian people to the respect

that. I put it to you that you do say the will of the Egyptian

people, and yes, he did win the majority, and there was still a

large number of people who did not support him and the mandate... Did

we wait for another election? We did not only win that election, we've

won four more elections and two referenda. How many seats in the

parliament? 47%. That is not, again, a huge mandate. That is why it is

good enough for us to be able to compromise with other people in the

parliament to come up with parliament to come up with a

government that represents a large number of people. We really wanted

every Egyptian to participate in this process so it became

successful. This is an Egyptian revolution. This is not the

another, it's for all Egyptians. another, it's for all Egyptians.

They participate and they have the right to share the power and the

good results of the revolution. It was this issue of the Muslim

Brotherhood and people did not trust the Freedom and Justice Party or the

Muslim Brotherhood. For example, initially, they said they would not

field a candidate for president. And then they did field a candidate

under the FJ P, who then made way for Mohamed Morsi. They say you

misled the party wants —— misled the people once, why not again? We did

not mislead the people but the political situation change. We did

not want another prime minister not want another prime minister from

the mob are raging to come and control the country. —— Mubarak

the solution in this Parliament... contest the presidency and then

the solution in this Parliament... This told us that there was

collusion between the executive branch and the military against the

interest of the Egyptian people. Millions of people went to a free

and fair election for the first time and fair election for the first time

in their lives. The clue is not the in their lives. The clue is not the

answer. —— coup. The head of the Army is incredibly popular.

Bridesmaids wear dresses with his image on it. His face is on Kate 's.

—— cake. They are cooling for him to run in the next election. With the

Egyptian media as it is in place, I can guarantee that even if you went

to Egypt, you would have the to Egypt, you would have the

popularity to run for office. Hitler was very popular. I don't think you

can compare add of Hitler to abduct factor of CC in Egypt. This is about

the future of democracy in Egypt. Do we want another dictatorship? Do we

want another military? He does not say he is going to run. There are

people who are urging too. People in the media. Amr Moussa, those people,

Amr Moussa has said no one is Amr Moussa has said no one is

talking about the return of the old talking about the return of the old

regime. We cannot predict who will win, be that as it may. We should

look at the number of ministers look at the number of ministers from

the old regime. 19 governors are military generals. That is the old

regime. regime. It is his regime, his

policy, which is against the will of the Egyptian people. The prime

minister says the Muslim Brotherhood will not be banned. What do you

think is going to happen? The Muslim Brotherhood did not come from the

top down, it came from the bottom of society. It changes one person at

one time. We want this to continue, for the constitution that was voted

publish his own newspaper, for for by the

publish his own newspaper, for everyone to participate. This is

what we have done in the past, this is what we want to do in the future.

You have not heard if you will be banned? If the coup government does

this, that is not what this, that is not what we are

concerned about. Mohamed Morsi did not come to power by a tank, but by

a popular vote that was ruled as free and fair by international

observers. You are now being written out of the script. You are not part

of the body that is drawing up the constitution. The religious affairs

minister has drawn up new rules minister has drawn up new rules this

week saying week saying that Al—Azhar

University, which is the great thinking University of Sunni Islam,

that preachers have got to be that preachers have got to be

approved by Al—Azhar University, approved by Al—Azhar University,

that mosques across Egypt cannot get funds from individual donations,

that they will be funded centrally, that preachers will be rotated, the

idea that the government has this is an attempt by the state to dominate

and control mosques in order to prevent Islamist is from using them

for recruitment and mobilisation. Not Islamists but the Egyptian

people. Your movement.Not necessarily our movement. This is

freedom of speech. It has to be guaranteed. We should not allow any

form of theocracy. I am worried about theocracy and the use of the

military to control the movement, the freedom of expression in the

country and the freedom of movement. Millions of people go to mosques. If

you can control that, you have a you can control that,

control mentality. They want to make sure that the mosques do not become,

as this man and others have said, that Islamic thought in Egypt will

be unified behind Brotherhood. White —— no. That is

what they are doing without banning the Muslim Brotherhood, they are

trying to get control. The word unified is dangerous because it

means people think alike. This man says that this means radicalism and

mosques and the Islamic thought of mosques and the Islamic thought of

Egypt can be unified. There is no extremism. Mohammed Ibrahim, the

information minister, faced an assassination attempt. I wonder why

until now we have not talked about the 5000 people killed by the

military? That's a high figure because the figure is more like

2000. It was 2000 at the mosque, I 2000. It was 2000 at the mosque, I

am talking about the rest of the country. No one denies that Muslim

Brotherhood supporters have been killed. We condemn all forms of

violence, whether it is against violence, whether it is against the

information minister or anyone. That indicates, doesn't it, that

disgruntled members of Islamist movements might be pushed towards

extremism? Never. Not at all. We are a sociopolitical movement for 80

years and we have never moved to violence. In July, members of the

Muslim Brotherhood broke away and they said they would join

brotherhood without violence, a new organisation, which would in life

that there is violence in the that there is violence in the

brotherhood. It is by default a non—violent organisation. Two

weeks, now, we have been in the streets without violence. But there

is not part of our ideology or our is not part of our ideology or our

pragmatism. We are is not part of our ideology or our

reinstated? Yellow mat not because you do? You

reinstated? Yellow mat not because of us but because he represents the

will of the Egyptian people. We will of the Egyptian people. We want

a parliament that was elected by the people of Egypt... You think you

will get all that? This is what we want. We will try to get it. We are

not the only ones in the streets full up there are 30 political

movements with us and they will continue to fight

Thank you for being on the Thank you for being on the

programme. Thank you.