Garry Kasparov HARDtalk

the scheme will boost the economy by £15 billion.

HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk.

Vladimir Putin appears to be Vladimir Putin appears to be

relishing his role as the centre of the diplomatic manoeuvring over

Syria. It reinforces his image as the diplomatic manoeuvring over

Syria. It reinforces his image as the strong man in the Kremlin. Just

how strong is he? A recent round of municipal elections gave the

anti—Putin movement a much—needed morale boost. My guest is the

chess champion, Garry Kasparov. Is chess champion, Garry Kasparov. Is

there any serious challenge to the supremacy of Putinism?

Garry Kasparov, welcome to HARDtalk. You see and icy Vladimir Putin all

over our TV screens. We see him at the centre of the diplomatic

manoeuvring over Syria. He looks like a man in control. Would he

accept that is the way that Russians see him today? He has been in

Russian television. Now he is trying We are used to seeing him at

to present... The reason that he looks a strong and in control,

because the opposition, the because

that dictators also grow with the leadership of the

week is there in Moscow for 40 weakness of the opposition.

week is there in Moscow for 40 years, not, not just by accident. He

is very good in placing his bets and recognising the strengths and the

weaknesses of his opponents. Do you think that President Obama and other

Western leaders consistently Western leaders consistently

comprehensively outmanoeuvred by Putin. He has been made to look

indecisive and weak. Let's not take things around. Oh Balmer acted in

decisively. He looked weak. Putin exploited that. We may suspect that

Bashar al—Assad's asset —— use of chemical weapons may be in car

reached. He may not be in such a desperate situation to use it now.

Probably, Putin wanted Probably, Putin wanted to see

Obama's reaction. But the way that he acted, or the way that he did not

act, definitely offered Putin great opportunity. How much does it make

you despair? You speak as a member of the Russian opposition. You have

been trying to change Russian politics and get rid of Vladimir

Putin. Right now the polls tell us that Russians approve of the way

that Putin handles Russia's place in the world. We do not know yet. The

only way to figure out whether Russian people approve or disapprove

is to run free and fair elections. We saw in Moscow in elections which

were not fair or free, but it was as close as we could get. Even without

access to television, which is totally state—controlled, Alexey had

a very formidable result. He got 27%. The other candidate got 51%.

You are an opposition member who refuses to accept a poll, and

always... I trust in mathematics. If you have polling stations with

observers you have polling stations with

first time that you and others have on the outskirts of

first time that you and others have cried foul when an election result

has not gone your way. You said did as well... After the result, and

after people like you said there was rigging in the election, someone

said, guys, you demand fairness, and said, guys, you demand fairness, and

accept it. It means you count accept it. It means you count

correctly. In any elections, if correctly. In any elections, if you

have their results, after 10% of votes are counted, 15 or 20, you can

see the change. When you look at the Moscow result, they were jumping all

the way around. The Moscow election committee refused to publish the

turnouts. During the entire night. Eight o'clock, the polling stations

closed, next morning, they do not give a turnout. Most international

pretty free and fair. Again, pretty free and fair. Again,

compared to what we have before. But it is far from being free and fair

by your standards. Even you would a knowledge the trend is to do a

somewhat better in election that the ones you saw in 20 election and

2012, if the trend is positive, does that not say something interesting

about how the Kremlin is regarding its own domestic politics? It feels

a bit freer. First of all, Moscow election, it is not the only

election in the country. Another major Russian city, its anti—

reason that he won, they accepted Kremlin candidate,

his victory, is because they had to deal with the other person. Until

three in the changing again. I think the Kremlin

sure. Then you saw the changing again. I think the Kremlin

decided to play this game. It was an experiment. Putin is desperate to

understand that Moscow rejected gain

understand that Moscow rejected Putin. We calculated 37. I was an

observer at one of the polling stations. I stayed on to a fall

the morning. He had 32.5%. I do not the morning. He had 32.5%. I do not

know about other polling stations. Moscow is not in love with him. They

try to find out whether they can afford free and fair elections. The

answer is no. Let's focus on this man, Alexey. He is becoming the

undisputed leader of the anti—Putin political movement. How do you feel

about that? I think it is a very good sign, he is young. I think the

future of younger —— Russia belongs to those people. I was matured in

the Soviet Union. Even for me, being open—minded, travelling, there are

still elements of the Soviet still elements of the Soviet

education. For the majority of people of my age, it is an

indispensable part of their culture. He belongs to a generation that was

born in the Soviet Union. That they've matured in the new Russia.

In political terms he is young. He In political terms he is young. He

is also a populist. His opponents accuse him of being afraid of Islam.

You can find all sorts of incidents of the rugged returns to what some

of Russia's minorities, support of Russia's minorities, support of

happens every year. Many people see happens every year. Many people see

it as it as an example of xenophobia. Is

this the right man to be the new figurehead of the Russian

opposition? We do not know what will opposition? We do not know what will

situation that is highly situation that is

unpredictable. Do you have serious reservations about him?

reservations but they are not serious. I think he had that... He

did a very good job. He has been convicted and his case is a laughing

stock. He has to spend five years in prison. It is a kangaroo court in

Putin's just before the election. He was

reaching people. Just because he is reaching people does not necessarily

mean that you and other Liberals in the opposition should shelve your

doubts about him. This used —— person used to be with Alexey in a

movement. She describes him as the most dangerous man. She has been on

Putin's payroll for ages. You can look at the Communist Party. They

are puppets in Putin's political theatre. They got the result in

Moscow. They had all opportunities. They had chances on television to

talk about his problems. That is a verdict. You need to

talk about his problems. That is a careful. Absolutely. Opposition is

based on certain principles. He careful. Absolutely. Opposition is

advocated principles of free and fair elections, free press, when we

reach this stage, I am sure a lot of people who voted for him will be

asking him questions. The Right asking him questions. The Right now,

we are not there. Now it is just about having one thing in common,

which is determination to get rid of Putin. Forget Putin for a second, I

about restoring the rules, play in about restoring the rules,

government and the opposition. by the rules, equal

government and the opposition. Alexey has been doing a great job by

pushing my country in the right direction. One thing that he has

well, is try to stir popular demonstrations, to get Muscovites

and other Russians out onto the streets, to say no to Boughton and

Putinism. —— no to Putin. But in the last few months, we have seen very

little of that. There was only a small gathering. And then he told

them to keep calm. Is it the end of them to keep calm. Is it the end of

people power? It is a realistic assessment. Putin will not seize

power through the ballot. In order to win elections, and to make

government except the result, you need more than that. You need more

than 100,000. In the end, we come back to polling evidence, the clear

majority of Russians still... I'm majority of Russians still... I'm

sure that Bashar al—Assad today, in Damascus, will have hundreds of

support if you do polling. We know there is a sizeable and steadily

growing, crowd of supporters of change. If you look at the young

generation, the numbers are generation, the numbers are

overwhelming. It takes time. Let's not forget, Putin is not going to

seize power through the ballot. If we owned the streets, he will use

force, brute force. We already have a lot of people on political trial,

behind bars, or doing than simply demonstrating.

You have been telling me a lot about how Russia feels but the truth is

you don't really know, as you don't live in Russia any more. You are a

very well educated, Moscow—based elite. I left my country seven

months ago. I still have a pretty good feel for what's going on there.

But, yes, if you look But, yes, if you look at the

minority. You may call minority. You may call

But it's not... When you read But it's not...

Russian internet, not only on the Russian internet, not only on the

Liberal side, if you look at Nationalists, left wing, it's more

reject Putin because it's a dead reject Putin because it's a

left—wing nationals. I don't want to end. It offers no future

left—wing nationals. I don't want to lecture you about the nature of

left—wing nationals. I don't want to strong evidence that there is a

strand of nationalism and strand of nationalism and

conservatism in Russia that Putin still manages to connect with. One

example that we have been looking at in the last few weeks and months,

the Russian decision to impose a new law which criminalises those who

disseminate information about what is regarded as non—traditional

sexual behaviour. Commentated explanation. A civil violation of

constitutional rights. And a brazen violation of... That's how you

characterise it. My point is, you may dismiss the polls, most Russians

particular piece of legislation. particular piece of legislation.

Look, I'm sure there are people in the United States where you can

gain support for similar gain support for similar

legislation. But, luckily the US is protected by the bill of Rights,

that will not let it happen. So, that will not let it happen. So,

it's easy to find enemies that belong to the minorities and,

naturally, if you control belong to the minorities and,

naturally, if you control television, and it's 100%

state—controlled, you can create all sorts of campaigns against

minorities. By the way, ten minutes ago, you spoke about how dangerous

he is but right now and you are correctly stating that it's a state

propaganda that has inspiring and inciting hatred. I didn't talk about

propaganda. I am just trying to opposition really represent anybody

diverse elements in opposition really represent anybody

other than yourself. We don't know. It's the only way to find out, is

just out there elections. Alexei Navalny demonstrated that even being

in such difficult conditions, with no access to television, he still

had a considerable result, which clearly forced the second round of

back to the beginning of our back to the beginning of

want a new Russian constitution. A conversation about the

want a new Russian constitution. A serious curtailment of the powers of

the presidency and you want to see much more power with devolved to the

regions. Two elected sheriffs. A very different vision. By the way,

when you look at the polls, the moment you start asking questions

not related to Putin and you ask about elite had sheriffs, it's a

majority everywhere. But if you ask majority everywhere. But if you ask

Russians, do you want a strong leader, do you want a strong man or

woman at the centre? They say yes because Russian history tells them

that when they don't have strong leadership, they have chaos. Now

it's very complicated and depends very much on the formula of the

question that you present. You can start asking them also about things

that matter to them. The regional stock. It will be very opposite. ——

regional staff. Psychologically regional staff. Psychologically they

may think strong leader. But when you think about psychological power

and negative effects on their lives, you will get different answers. One

other aspect of the message you have other aspect of the message you have

tried to get out about Putin and the current government is you think more

could be done and should be done. You tweeted the word cowardice

recently in relation to resident Obama. Absolutely. In general, the

West is not ready to stand. But, West is not ready to stand. But,

hang on, when you talk about the way in which you feel the West should

boycott Putin, what do you mean? You boycott Putin, what do you mean? You

say it's not symbolism of not going to the winter Olympics... No, it's

not stop dealing. It stopped not stop dealing. It stopped

providing him with credentials of a strong, democratic leader. That's

belongs to the G8 and... ages.

belongs to the G8 and... Industrialised democracy. —— rush

hour. Right now, Putin is the president of Russia. There's no

Russians. This is nonsense. The West West were to

Russians. This is nonsense. The West has been dealing with China and

China is ten times more important than Russia for trade and other

issues. But no one, at least I haven't heard, has called the

Chinese leaders democrats. Putin has been thriving with the climate of

recognition at him as a deck and a —— of him as a democratic leader. He

doesn't use tanks accuses banks doesn't use tanks accuses banks to

interval —— infiltrate western critical business and financial

circles, that makes him more dangerous. When you look

oligarchs, those are not free oligarchs, those are not free

agents. They are spreading Putin's impetus around. If President Obama

wants to stand against this infiltration, he doesn't even have

to send cruise missiles. He has to send cruise missiles. He has to

ask people in America, people in the UK, you have a lot of people in

Europe, the message to Putin should be clear. You have to play by the

rules. If you try to infiltrate our rules. If you try to infiltrate our

system or in danger owl way of life, we can go after you. —— owl way of

life. The most important element of his construction is his pocket. I

sensed the level of your passion and personal animus to Vladimir Putin. I

can understand it. For eight years, you have tried to rally Russians

around this message. That he is taking Russia in the wrong

direction. But the fact you have now chosen to make your life in the

United States, you have a wife and child in the United States and

you, is it, in delivering this there, that's hardly going to help

you, is it, in delivering this message to the ordinary Russian

people? Again, as I said, I trust people? Again, as I said,

Alexei Navalny's generation. But you Alexei Navalny's generation. But you

had a choice to make. You talk about President Obama... You want me to

my passport? And then you spend two my passport? And then you spend

interest... They say they don't minutes telling...

interest... They say they don't intend to charge you. Why not stay

in Russia? I was already invited to be a weakness for one of the cases,

critical cases, there. Although that you leave as a suspect. It is easy

for me to say this but let me be blunt, there are many Russians who

have continued opposition fight inside Russia and some of them have

accused you of" cowardice" , for walking away. I'm happy to accept

criticism from not exactly the names you mentioned but many Westerners

who are behind bars. I am happy who are behind bars. I am happy to

recognise that I have other choices. Why didn't you stay? Because I will

be useless there. You are talking about ten years. The moment you are

there, you are locked. I don't think I will be arrested but I could be

taken away, my passport could be taken away, and what can I do? Here,

I can argue and go around. Either way, the law passed in the US which

aims at Putin's oligarchs and aims at Putin's oligarchs and

criminals for violating in Russia, that's something I feel that I was

partially responsible for. Hang partially responsible for. Hang on,

you have changed your message. You just accused US administration of

cowardice. It was passed by the house against the will of the White

House. If you want to see the truth. Either way, now maybe this

value of these —— this law, the bill value of these —— this law, the bill

despite the fact that I have been despite the fact that I have

depth to curtail Putin's activities fighting hard against anybody who

abroad. I wonder if there is a truth abroad. I wonder if there is a truth

here that you can't bring yourself to admit, which is you have had to

give world's greatest chess player. You

back in 2005, to make it your But when you

back in 2005, to make it your life's work, you thought you could

feel you have lost it? As I said, I win

feel you have lost it? As I said, I believe that Putin's demise is not

far away at a recognised... With respect, you said that to me four

years ago when you were here. You are still here and you are still

losing. Look, from now on, you will recognise that Putin is not so much

power problem, it's your problem. Every dip take it grows up through

different stages. Now you know he can't do anything in Syria or

the place. Do you think that if the the place. Do you think that if the

West took a different stand towards Putin, one you have outlined, that

it would seriously weaken him? Can be West really do things which will

help opposition to Putin? It's not even opposition to Putin. If Putin

was so confident in 2008, he would throw away the Russian Constitution.

He totally ignored it. He would stay for the third or fifth term. But the

brilliance of Putin, he has now ensured with a cloak of

constitutionality, he can stay till 2024. Look, how about having a bad?

He will not be here in 2010. —— He will not be here in 2010. ——

2020. Western governments will have to recognise that Putin is their

problem. Putin's money is all over the place. The moment we

to do something, they will know how to do something, they will know

to stop his expansion and all the wrongdoings in the world that are

eventually covered by the KGB from Moscow. I can't take your bet but I

will shake your hand. Thank you for will shake your hand. Thank you for

being on HARDtalk Mac.