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What now for the Muslim Brotherhood in each of and its political wing | :00:00. | :00:20. | |
the Freedom and Justice Party? Rarely has the fall from power of a | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
party been so quick, dramatic and violent. On the first anniversary of | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
Mohamed Morsi's election, millions took the streets against them, | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
precipitating his removal by the army. Since then, thousands of | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
members and supporters have been arrested, including nearly all the | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, a member of Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, a member of | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
the now suspended parliament. What is the brotherhood's next move? | :00:49. | :01:08. | |
Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, welcome to HARDtalk. They keep having me. | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
Mohamed Morsi in power for a year, Mohamed Morsi in power for a year, | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
millions came out on Why did you think the Muslim | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
Brotherhood got it wrong? They not get it wrong. Millions were in | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
the streets against them, but there were millions on the streets in | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
was created in the revolution. was | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
People have the right to protest. People have the right to protest. | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
This is something good. When the rebellion came out in that massive | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
Morsi, there were 14 million on the Morsi, there were 14 million on the | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
million signatures gathered It is a | :01:45. | :02:00. | |
million signatures gathered against. The other group gathered 26 | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
million. If we play the number game, the Egyptian democracy is listless. | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
The ballot is the way to go. It was The ballot is the way to go. It was | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
a creation to justify the coup. a creation to justify the coup. It | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
cannot be justified. They came out in rebellion before Mohamed Morsi | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
was removed from power by the army. It attracted people from all parts | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
of society in Egypt. The point they were making is — look, there were | :02:28. | :02:39. | |
some people who backed him originally because one of the other | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
contenders were seen as a member of the former regime. They say they | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
were alienating. were alienating. When people | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
realised that the coup was behind it, people rejected it, even those | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
who took part are joining the it, people rejected it, even those | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
pro—democracy anti— coup Alliance. They ask you why you thought he got | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
it wrong, look at a poll by the addiction Centre for Public opinion | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
research, it is independent and nonpartisan. They said from a high | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
of 97% after 80 of 97% after 80 days in office, one | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
year later, only 32% of people approve of what the President was | :03:20. | :03:21. | |
doing. That is a fantastic drop. That is what democracy is all about. | :03:21. | :03:32. | |
The numbers go up sometimes, they go down sometimes. The head of the | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
system came down, but the rest of the system was that and was trying | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
to block President Morsi from delivering what the revolution | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
expected us to deliver. I will tell you one reason why there was a | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
dramatic drop in their popularity, dramatic drop in their popularity, | :03:44. | :03:52. | |
between April and May, most and the poll questions Egyptians | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
between April and May, most respondents were concerned that the | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
Muslim Brotherhood is trying to is the most the state and control | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
of Egypt, from 1923 when the British of Egypt, from 1923 when the British | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
presence was that, it is stated clearly that the majority of | :04:11. | :04:12. | |
Egyptians are Muslims. There is Egyptians are Muslims. There is no | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
need to is the mice. What we want to do was protect the people. It is the | :04:18. | :04:28. | |
will of the people that was sabotaged. That is the message it | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
had constantly given. It is the had constantly given. It is the real | :04:31. | :04:38. | |
reason. The fact is this, Mohamed Morsi got only 52% in that | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
election. It shouldn't be the tyranny of the majority that four | :04:43. | :04:53. | |
people out of five, sorry, 50% should tell Egyptian society what is | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
going on. It was democracy. He received 52%. He had the right to | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
run the country. Ignore the 48% run the country. Ignore the 48% that | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
didn't vote for him? It was didn't vote for him? It was | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
important to develop this culture that was absent during the previous | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
years. The President invited people for dialogue and said he would go to | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
them and have dialogue for the future of the ditch. It was an | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
invitation to all of Egyptians, not invitation to all of Egyptians, not | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
a military coup. But the military coup that imprison thousands of | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
people for nothing but their political actions. We are still just | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
looking at the event of up to this. The point and try to make is that | :05:38. | :05:45. | |
the Muslim Brotherhood used that 52% to not run an inclusive government. | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
David Cameron said after the removal, yes, he has a democratic | :05:47. | :05:55. | |
mandate, but democracy also means ensuring that everybody has Arab | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
leaders are responsive to concerns. boys —— has a voice and | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
leaders are responsive to concerns. The numbers of ministers in the | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
Egyptian government under President Morsi, the number of ministers is | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
38. How many of them were from the party? No more than 11. Look at the | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
governors in the country. How many were that? 27, no more than 13 were | :06:16. | :06:25. | |
members. You mention the governors, unit Mohamed Morsi created a great | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
deal of controversy when he deal of controversy when he | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
nominated the Minister of Luxor. He nominated the Minister of Luxor. He | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
was part of a party was part of a party that was | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
responsible for the killing of tourists in 1997. This is a man | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
appointed to run Luxor? He was not part of the crime. He was forced to | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
step down, is that the Kennett person's for Mohamed Morsi to | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
bring's there is to be violent groups, he brought them into the | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
process. He should be thanked for it. He wanted to prove that the | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
Islamic group is changing its Islamic group is changing its | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
ideology and is willing to welcome tourists. This is a city that is | :07:05. | :07:12. | |
dependent on tourism, and you bring in a man who was a member of a | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
party, I am not saying he party, I am not saying he was | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
responsible, but the party was responsible for killing tourists. | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
People change. He was under pressure and he steps down. The point a | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
making is, when Mohamed Morsi was removed, it did not provoke the | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
outcry that you might have hoped and expected, precisely because people | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
are not thinking was running an inclusive government. The UN foreign | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
policy chipset I hope the new inclusive government. The UN foreign | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
policy chipset I hope the new administration will be completely | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
inclusive and respect fundamental rights, freedoms and rule of law and | :07:49. | :07:58. | |
halt authorities to account. This is very unfortunate as a statesman. You | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
can not replace democracy through a coup. A coup is against democracy. | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
Show me a coup in the world that supported democracy. President Mossi | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
removed through democratic process. supported the people. If | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
removed through democratic process. Seeing that there were millions | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
against them, this is only one perspective. We need to look | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
day and every night protesting the other. There | :08:26. | :08:37. | |
day and every night protesting the crew. We will never go back to the | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
old regime, we will never accept a police state. It is a crime against | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
is, a crime against the will of the is, a crime against the will of the | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
Egyptian people. Mohamed Morsi and his people were polarising the | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
differences of the people. When differences of the people. When he | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
was alerted to this fact, he did not listen. He did not try to change | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
things. It is almost the opposite, the country was polarised. The | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
country came to be polarised right after the revolution. That is fine. | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
Healthy polarisation is fine so that Healthy polarisation is fine so that | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
democracy, which had not have the culture of democracy, now we have | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
it, we are polarised. We can move forward to democracy. The only way | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
is dialogue, not a coup. A queue is not an alternative. You have made | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
mistakes in the lead up to the removal of Mohamed Morsi. For | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
example, the former Egyptian Foreign Minister and former head of the Arab | :09:38. | :09:46. | |
league said he was going to have a meeting with a senior leader of the | :09:46. | :09:56. | |
Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo. He said, look, will have a conversation | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
of lessons, they disagreed on some of lessons, they disagreed on some | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
the impression that they were not in the impression | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
the mood for changing. That is his the mood for changing. That is his | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
perspective of what was said. the mood for changing. That is his | :10:13. | :10:23. | |
was a month before Mohamed Morsi was removed? We are talking about the | :10:23. | :10:23. | |
elected President. If people want to elected President. If people want to | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
talk to him, they should talk to the president. He is a powerful man in | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
the Muslim Brotherhood. He is not the President. He was speaking on | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
behalf of the movement. We make a behalf of the movement. We make | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
distinction... Why didn't you listen distinction... Why didn't you listen | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
to what was being said? The maker movement between the movement, the | :10:45. | :10:46. | |
presidency and the party. There are presidency and the party. There are | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
times for national dialogue. You talk to groups of people, he was | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
when to go to them, rather than them when to go to them, rather than them | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
coming to us. The importance of dialogue and the willingness to be | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
able to come to a compromise with other parties. He was called the new | :11:04. | :11:13. | |
pharaoh. We had dialogue is's influential people saying this was | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
the new Ferro. He left the country, look at what he did after. Because | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
of the coup. We have to look at from a comparative perspective. Let | :11:22. | :11:30. | |
us compare what happened in the first year. In the first year, we | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
feel the sense of belonging. We feel the sense of belonging. We have | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
the freedom to move around and discuss things were the people who | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
do not have the chance to discuss their political future before. We | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
had a great year. You squandered the year. It was the forces of the ex— | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
regime. Those remnants of the old regime, it was an alliance between | :11:51. | :12:01. | |
the military, the ex— regime... You could have brushed them away, you | :12:01. | :12:10. | |
work with them. We wanted to reform state bureaucracy, we had | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
corruption. That is why we had a revolution. He did not work with | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
them. The body charged with drying up a new constitution, or the non— | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
Islamist members left. They did not Islamist members left. They did not | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
want to stay with you because they thought you were monopolising the | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
working relations with them. We have working relations with them. We have | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
a six—month period. They only walked drafted the Constitution together. | :12:36. | :12:45. | |
Most of the articles came from the Liberal size and the other side. The | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
Constitution was presented to the Egyptian people. 60% of those voted | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
for the Constitution. Egyptian people. 60% of those voted | :12:53. | :13:02. | |
to come and get rid of it? What was the turnout? It was 30%. In a | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
democracy, he would invite people to vote. Those who come are welcome. It | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
had a mandate that 33% of the had a mandate that 33% of the | :13:12. | :13:19. | |
electorate gives you a mandate to radically change the Constitution? | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
There is a mechanism in the There is a mechanism in the | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
Constitution that it can be changed again and again. That is why wanted | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
the election to go forward, so that the will of the people can be | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
represented and Parliament can change any article in the | :13:34. | :13:42. | |
Morsi was accused of being Morsi was accused of being | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
authoritarian, allowing greater powers for himself, including in | :13:44. | :13:51. | |
unity from prosecution. And people said, look, this is a man who we | :13:51. | :14:00. | |
cannot trust. Who are those people? Those are his political opponents. | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
expected, —— respected, but let us expected, —— respected, but let us | :14:03. | :14:10. | |
not believe just what we are told. Mohamed Morsi did not do anything | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
for his own sake. He wanted to protect Egyptian democracy. We had | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
corrupt people and he wanted to protect the will of the people. The | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
committee writes the Egyptian committee | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
constitution. Look at what happens, constitution. Look at what happens, | :14:27. | :14:37. | |
who write the constitution. They are who write the constitution. They | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
not inclusive of... The Islamist not inclusive of... The Islamist | :14:41. | :14:49. | |
the Egyptian people to the respect the Egyptian people to the respect | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
that. I put it to you that you do say the will of the Egyptian | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
people, and yes, he did win the majority, and there was still a | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
large number of people who did not support him and the mandate... Did | :15:04. | :15:11. | |
we wait for another election? We did not only win that election, we've | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
won four more elections and two referenda. How many seats in the | :15:15. | :15:24. | |
parliament? 47%. That is not, again, a huge mandate. That is why it is | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
good enough for us to be able to compromise with other people in the | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
parliament to come up with parliament to come up with a | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
government that represents a large number of people. We really wanted | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
every Egyptian to participate in this process so it became | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
successful. This is an Egyptian revolution. This is not the | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
another, it's for all Egyptians. another, it's for all Egyptians. | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
They participate and they have the right to share the power and the | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
good results of the revolution. It was this issue of the Muslim | :15:59. | :16:08. | |
Brotherhood and people did not trust the Freedom and Justice Party or the | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
Muslim Brotherhood. For example, initially, they said they would not | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
field a candidate for president. And then they did field a candidate | :16:16. | :16:25. | |
under the FJ P, who then made way for Mohamed Morsi. They say you | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
misled the party wants —— misled the people once, why not again? We did | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
not mislead the people but the political situation change. We did | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
not want another prime minister not want another prime minister from | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
the mob are raging to come and control the country. —— Mubarak | :16:41. | :16:50. | |
the solution in this Parliament... contest the presidency and then | :16:50. | :17:00. | |
the solution in this Parliament... This told us that there was | :17:00. | :17:07. | |
collusion between the executive branch and the military against the | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
interest of the Egyptian people. Millions of people went to a free | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
and fair election for the first time and fair election for the first time | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
in their lives. The clue is not the in their lives. The clue is not the | :17:14. | :17:27. | |
answer. —— coup. The head of the Army is incredibly popular. | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
Bridesmaids wear dresses with his image on it. His face is on Kate 's. | :17:31. | :17:44. | |
—— cake. They are cooling for him to run in the next election. With the | :17:44. | :17:54. | |
Egyptian media as it is in place, I can guarantee that even if you went | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
to Egypt, you would have the to Egypt, you would have the | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
popularity to run for office. Hitler was very popular. I don't think you | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
can compare add of Hitler to abduct factor of CC in Egypt. This is about | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
the future of democracy in Egypt. Do we want another dictatorship? Do we | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
want another military? He does not say he is going to run. There are | :18:21. | :18:30. | |
people who are urging too. People in the media. Amr Moussa, those people, | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
Amr Moussa has said no one is Amr Moussa has said no one is | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
talking about the return of the old talking about the return of the old | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
regime. We cannot predict who will win, be that as it may. We should | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
look at the number of ministers look at the number of ministers from | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
the old regime. 19 governors are military generals. That is the old | :18:52. | :18:53. | |
regime. regime. It is his regime, his | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
policy, which is against the will of the Egyptian people. The prime | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
minister says the Muslim Brotherhood will not be banned. What do you | :19:05. | :19:17. | |
think is going to happen? The Muslim Brotherhood did not come from the | :19:17. | :19:18. | |
top down, it came from the bottom of society. It changes one person at | :19:18. | :19:27. | |
one time. We want this to continue, for the constitution that was voted | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
publish his own newspaper, for for by the | :19:28. | :19:37. | |
publish his own newspaper, for everyone to participate. This is | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
what we have done in the past, this is what we want to do in the future. | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
You have not heard if you will be banned? If the coup government does | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
this, that is not what this, that is not what we are | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
concerned about. Mohamed Morsi did not come to power by a tank, but by | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
a popular vote that was ruled as free and fair by international | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
observers. You are now being written out of the script. You are not part | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
of the body that is drawing up the constitution. The religious affairs | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
minister has drawn up new rules minister has drawn up new rules this | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
week saying week saying that Al—Azhar | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
University, which is the great thinking University of Sunni Islam, | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
that preachers have got to be that preachers have got to be | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
approved by Al—Azhar University, approved by Al—Azhar University, | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
that mosques across Egypt cannot get funds from individual donations, | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
that they will be funded centrally, that preachers will be rotated, the | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
idea that the government has this is an attempt by the state to dominate | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
and control mosques in order to prevent Islamist is from using them | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
for recruitment and mobilisation. Not Islamists but the Egyptian | :20:49. | :20:50. | |
people. Your movement.Not necessarily our movement. This is | :20:50. | :20:59. | |
freedom of speech. It has to be guaranteed. We should not allow any | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
form of theocracy. I am worried about theocracy and the use of the | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
military to control the movement, the freedom of expression in the | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
country and the freedom of movement. Millions of people go to mosques. If | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
you can control that, you have a you can control that, | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
control mentality. They want to make sure that the mosques do not become, | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
as this man and others have said, that Islamic thought in Egypt will | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
be unified behind Brotherhood. White —— no. That is | :21:28. | :21:38. | |
what they are doing without banning the Muslim Brotherhood, they are | :21:38. | :21:39. | |
trying to get control. The word unified is dangerous because it | :21:39. | :21:52. | |
means people think alike. This man says that this means radicalism and | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
mosques and the Islamic thought of mosques and the Islamic thought of | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
Egypt can be unified. There is no extremism. Mohammed Ibrahim, the | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
information minister, faced an assassination attempt. I wonder why | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
until now we have not talked about the 5000 people killed by the | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
military? That's a high figure because the figure is more like | :22:16. | :22:17. | |
2000. It was 2000 at the mosque, I 2000. It was 2000 at the mosque, I | :22:17. | :22:25. | |
am talking about the rest of the country. No one denies that Muslim | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
Brotherhood supporters have been killed. We condemn all forms of | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
violence, whether it is against violence, whether it is against the | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
information minister or anyone. That indicates, doesn't it, that | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
disgruntled members of Islamist movements might be pushed towards | :22:40. | :22:47. | |
extremism? Never. Not at all. We are a sociopolitical movement for 80 | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
years and we have never moved to violence. In July, members of the | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
Muslim Brotherhood broke away and they said they would join | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
brotherhood without violence, a new organisation, which would in life | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
that there is violence in the that there is violence in the | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
brotherhood. It is by default a non—violent organisation. Two | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
weeks, now, we have been in the streets without violence. But there | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
is not part of our ideology or our is not part of our ideology or our | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
pragmatism. We are is not part of our ideology or our | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
reinstated? Yellow mat not because you do? You | :23:23. | :23:33. | |
reinstated? Yellow mat not because of us but because he represents the | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
will of the Egyptian people. We will of the Egyptian people. We want | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
a parliament that was elected by the people of Egypt... You think you | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
will get all that? This is what we want. We will try to get it. We are | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
not the only ones in the streets full up there are 30 political | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
movements with us and they will continue to fight | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
Thank you for being on the Thank you for being on the | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
programme. Thank you. | :24:07. | :24:12. |