Binyavanga Wainaina - Kenyan Author HARDtalk

from Kiev on the front of the Independent. Time now for HARDtalk.

Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk which forms part of the

BBC's Freedom season. In a host of African countries from sexuality is

a crime. From Nigeria to Uganda, politicians seem to believe that

persecuting gays is a vote winning strategy. M yesterday, the Kenyan

writer Binyavanga Wainaina, knew it would be big news when he publicly

revealed his homosexuality earlier this year. He is now the centre of

the debate around Freedom, identity, and culture that is raging

across the African continent. Is his stand changing minds?

Binyavanga Wainaina, welcomed the HARDtalk. Thank you. You recently to

the momentous decision to come out as gay. Why? It was my birthday, I

was turning 43. It must have been more than your birthday. She knew it

would change alone. So? I came back home couple of years ago to settle

permanently. I have been fascinated in the rate of change of things on

the continent. A caller to retain. A lot of freedoms, threats, violence,

economic growth. And for me a lot of creativity. I have worked with

writers across the continent in Nigeria, in Kenyan, Zimbabwe, South

Africa. I work with talent. As an editor, a publisher, a general noise

maker, and rally of things, and I have seen exchange. I feel like the

generation of a father, it is time to go for broke for what we want. It

is that simple. Going for broke, but you must have known that it would

cause a huge stir and it would cause to you personally a degree of

trouble. Not yet. My gamble was that the younger generation of Africans,

the vast majority, in the digital generation, are different. I have

lived and travelled around this continent for the last eight years

and I know many of them pretty intimately. I was confident in an

embrace of support and a lot of good bracing conversations. Did you feel

different because of it? You have just announced the world what you

are and what you have pretty much always been. Do you feel different?

I was struck by something you said a few weeks ago. My whole queer life I

have avoided the present tense, and now the implication is that you are

living in the present in a way that you have never able to before. My

dad died two years ago. She was the CEO of a public company. She was 26,

and he grew it. She retired with money and a good house. All of my

life I have been saying that I am waiting to grow up to decide to be

what I want to be, country and my continent. That is my present tense.

You speak of your father, even in a short burst, with real affection and

respect. Why could you not tell your father and, indeed, your mother that

you were gay? You kept putting it in the future tense. I did not trust

their love in me. Each time they had to die before I had to say I will

ask them. I could not even say that they would not accept it because

they have never given me the slightest indication. And day may

bohemian who has given them trouble in my life. You not think that they

probably did no? My mother, for sure. I father, it is hard to guess.

You are now very open. You say that you are sure that even as a child of

56 years old you knew that you were different. Telegraph yes. I did not

do with sex was until I was 14 but he knew that there was this thing,

this Paul 2-man that I had to hide from everybody. You have to hide it

yourself? I had to hide it separately and have a separate place

in my imagination to deal with it and not act on it outside of that.

Is it true that you could not really use the word gay in connection with

yourself until you in late 30s. You are a prominent Kenyan writer and

creative and get it seems as we talk about this you have been unable to

be true to yourself. Maybe your writing is missed out something

essential about you pretty much all of your life? Yes. Is that bid to

look back on your until now and say that there is something missing in

all of this? A body of work itself evolves with you. I do not see it as

a hindsight thing taking out all of these lost chapters. What was there

was true to something, and it will survive on its own in the ecosystem

of writing, the book. People get annoyed and say that they are

returning the book, you lied. You have written a memoir which now we

can all say misses out the most essential thing about who you are.

The memoir was also about language, developing language as a child. I

like to play with a lot of stuff. I don't know. You do not sign up to

this kind of truth telling as a writer. I am a literary writer. You

do not sign up for it unless you know that it could be completely

inconsequential and you move on. I will not be crying tears because

people wonder if they should put the book in the dustbin. I still think

it is a great book and I was reading it three days ago and I was

thinking, everything that is gay. Without being explicit. Let's move

from their personal to the public and political. You have become a

very significant public figure in Kenya and across Africa as well

because you're one of the most prominent Africans who has come out.

Do you embrace that public role? There are going to be some

inconveniences clearly, but yes. I did it. I was going to write a book

about being gay, even three years ago. The timing of this chapter was

a political act. I was sick and tired of what is going on. The new

law in Nigeria really got to be in a very personal way. A friend of mine

died a year ago AIDS. He was too ashamed to tell doctors to test him.

He would have to explain. That stuff is mediaeval and I'm sick of it. I

am sick of having 15th century conversations. You say you are sick

of it, but it raises questions about your insecurity. You are based in

Kenya, where the Constitution is a grey area as to whether

homosexuality is legal or not. You could read a Constitution either way

but in a jury of the laws have been toughened up again. Very long prison

terms await back to see homosexuals. In parts of Nigeria, under Sharia

law, you could face lashing or stoning. What about your own

personal security? There are many things that could get you stoned in

some African countries. Would you go to Nigeria today? I will wait and

see. I will deflect this to you, we are experiencing the most exciting

and the most dangerous time in recent history of this continent. I

want to be here for it. The risks to everybody, growth, huge buildings,

in the opening up of the territory, are risks that are going to happen.

Willoughby all the flappy about it and say no? I was at the airport in

Nairobi and for the first time was a bit nervous. I signed for autographs

with airport security staff and had a long chat with one of the

policeman they are. It is not to say that there is no homophobia, but he

did not do these things unless you know what your environment is ready

for. So far the response has been incredible. You talk about the

extremes and the pressures that come from groups like book around and

others, but the point is that it is not the extremes that are pursuing

an anti-gay agenda. Uganda or Nigeria, for example, mainstream

politicians are making political hay with an anti-gay agenda. Why do you

think that is the case in today's African nations? I have been very

vocal in the last few weeks about the Pentecostal church. I am talking

about the movement that arrived in the 80s. I call them the Alabama.

You mean a bunch of Protestant missionaries from the US? They are

responsible, we are responsible for our own continent. But you have had

a fever of a very specific brand of Pentecostalism. That one came in the

80s and 90s. I was part of it, it was what killed my mother. As the

continent 's economy started dropping, people came under the

umbrella of the dictators in Africa. The president was sitting

there with them telling people to remove the Demon of homosexuality,

cancer, everything. Those churches to control of themselves and are now

in every street corner, ten of them, 50 of them. As economies have

stabilised, as you have got a growing middle class in this

continent, it is time to be confident enough to start to speak

out about the oxygen that these people take from larger freedoms.

There is something odd about that argument. That in essence, the surge

of anti-gay legislation and sentiment is somehow the product of

an external influence from a US -based church. It does not seem to

reflect reality. Look at the president of Uganda. He did not talk

to me about the influence on him of American missionaries. He told

specifically about African values, African culture and tradition, which

in his view told him and his people that homosexuality comedies he --

homosexuality is abnormal. American missionaries influence many people

in this continent. We do not want to talk about blaming America. Are you

really taking responsibility? You are a writer and cultural figure and

a proud African. There are elements of Pan African is to your cultural

view. Maybe, you are seeking to blame the anti-gay agenda on

outsiders because it allows you to go easy on internal African factors.

My personal concerns are how as we as a continent have allowed

ourselves to import certain kinds of ideas. Not even domesticate them for

our own good. My grandparents on both sides were founder members of

Catholic and Anglican churches. I am a product of that system of great

schools, I am proud of that. We are also a product of an extremely

conservative Anglican movement that are still stranded in 1920. You can

not blame the coloniser anymore, you have to put the bullet points that

the British debut and pound up again, you people have become very

hard and brittle centre of establishment at the time this

continent needs change. As you speak to me, I cannot help reflect on the

words of one evangelical American pastor who has done a lot of work in

Uganda, the kind of person you would be blaming for this anti-gay

climate. He has responded to words such as your saying, I do not have

any special powers to influence, it is racist to suggest that Africans

have no will of their own to produce public policies to suit their own

values. But put it like this, the Anglicans, the Catholics especially

in Uganda and Nigeria more the conservative elements that are

dominant are so powerful right now for those churches, they are

imposing their will on the Anglican Church in the UK. They have the

parishioners and they can pursue conservative agenda. What you have

on the continent is a battle between a younger generation and an older

generation that wants to keep the establishment power in play. This is

the way Jonathan good luck can partner with the crazy Pentecostals

and the arms to create fear at a time and he could not deliver

electricity to his own people. He is a desperate president. You seem to

think you can take the conservatism of a man like arch ship in Nigeria

and the Imam 's who claim to speak for poco Rahman, you can also take

people like politicians who talk about specifically African

values.... We all went to school. These movements have been counting

on about homosexuality in Africa for ever. What you people have been

doing is pounding out these bullet points. To long time. What we can

seize your churches been increasingly anti- diversity, in the

most diverse society on the earth. Final thought on this cultural

argument, when the catholic cardinal from Ghana when he said African

traditional systems protect or have protected the population against the

tendency that is homosexuality, any affair between two of the same sex,

these are not countenanced in Africa. That cultural taboos has

always been there. Are you saying that is wrong? That is why talk

about the Anglican Church and Catholic Church are the most

conservative in the world. He is talking about traditional African

systems, putting a taboos on homosexuality. Is that right or

wrong? It is wrong. It is wrong. The church is more interested in damping

down on perversity. When homosexually tea comes up abortion

they go crazy. When the subject comes up how have you Protestants

allowed people from crazy churches to come across as continent, I was

there when the Catholic Church was saying, in my hometown, to allow

their parishioner to go to this giant rallies where people were told

to vote antidemocracy. I was in Kenya win the churches united to

have a constitution not passed. Because of these foreign forces.

These are rich aggressive forces on this continent. You have certainly

said that clearly. Let me flip the argument about outside interventions

in this particular issue around. Let me talk now about the words of

British Prime Minister David Cameron in 2011 and he looked at the trend

towards anti-gay legislation in countries like Nigeria, he said from

now on we will tie the aid and assistance we give to Africa to

respect for human rights, including respect for the rights of gay

Africans. Do you welcome that will not? Let me say, I am very tolerant,

I would set -- tend to the no. Even though you've told me about the

surge of anti-gay feeling and how it is riding the rights of peoples

archers yourself when outsiders, in the West come and say we have a view

here and we want to defend human rights. You do not like that? Is

Africans we had to start having these conversations in a bold way

between ourselves. I do not think the results have been very good over

the last five years in the prism of a halfway conversation between

England and Africa. People I know at this point. .doc. This question is

about human rights. Does the West, or do international outsiders have a

right to tell Africans when they think Africans are infringing basic

human rights? Traditional Africans should be able to interact, the

example me as a gay man interact with any organisations to advance

common interest. My problem with this, our experience on the

continent as if you open a little window, people who want to control

you come back. It is not about control, but respect for universal

values. This is a similar issue to you philosophically to your approach

to the International Criminal Court. As a king and you have thought about

whether the Hague court has the right to try your current president

and vice president for alleged crimes. Committed in the OC of an

election were terrible ethnic violence. You decided the

international court has no right? I said it had a right. I did not want

to have a right. I did not want further entry of people over our own

sublimity. I'm not the only person. Many people talk about this idea.

Something, it is for me, the preference of this being fought in

the place that is called the political is more important. People

have written about it in the New York Times recently. What is the

preference? To some degree, Kenya is a growing concern. It is not the

Congo. How far do we allow our own systems to collapse or implode

because of the ICC. How far do you say..., you said at the beginning of

this interview there was a new Africa, a hurricane ain't passed on

to the continent. We are proud of where we are going. If you are proud

and confident, why did not welcome these universal values. Whether they

be applied by outsiders or insiders. Why do you not recognise these are

values that you aspire to? We are talking about universal values,

David Blair would be at the ICC as we speak. The questions are

tentative, one part of me wants to see the Kenyan President in court. I

want to see the facts unfold. There is no doubt about it. But she

blinked like this, and the French are back on side like this. They are

running everything. Mali and so forth. We have to watch these

things. We do have these relationships. Between the Western

Africa, that relationship is well documented. And it continues. This

gets to the nub of the conversation, it seems to me on one hand you say

we are a new Africa not the generation that for the liberation

wars anymore. We are post- postcolonial. On another level you

are forced into suspicion and mistrust and resentment that filled

the generation of McGarvey and others. We are not a new Africa. We

are beginning to be a new Africa. We have not arrived. We are setting off

on a tentative, dangerous, thrilling journey. Which I want to be part of.

The want to make it on your own? The moment the think you know something,

you have two shift around. Those are good adventures. The only thing I do

not want is to be sitting there and watching the water drop. That is all

we did for 20 years. If I may in this way, do you want to make this

journey on your own as Africans on your own. Is that what you want? We

would like to make it with better partnerships. Put like that. We have

to end there. Thank you so much for being on HARDtalk.

It's fairly quiet overnight. There will be some frost and some rain to

be found as