Ricardo Alarcon - President, Cuban National Assembly, 1993 - 2013 HARDtalk

concentrating on the features of these two people. Welcome to

HARDtalk. I'm Zainab Badawi. At the zenith of his career, he was

described as the third most powerful figure in Cuba after the Castro

brothers. Ricardo Alarcon is a veteran on the political and

diplomatic scene. He's a former Foreign Minister and long-time

ambassador for Cuba to the United Nations. He still wields a great

deal of influence and now spends most of his time campaigning for the

release of three Cubans jailed in the US for spying. Isn't it time the

US and Cuba buried the hatchet and normalised relations? What is Cuba

prepared to do to end a long stalemate with the US, which imposed

an economic embargo and broke off diplomatic relations in the 1960s?

We are prepared to sit down with them on an equal footing and talk

about our differences. I think that it is the West that has to listen to

the rest of the world, to the countries in the Western Hemisphere,

and to its own public opinion. The last survey in Washington showed

that the vast majority of Americans, especially and curiously

enough, those living in Florida and those living in southern Florida...

In other words, a big number of Cubans, 64% of the population in

Dade County, Miami, are against the embargo against Cuba and are in

favour of normalisation of relations. Barack Obama in 2009

after he became president said that he wanted to turn the page with Cuba

and wanted warmer ties with them. Do you see that happening?

Unfortunately, that is one of his promises that have not been

fulfilled. He shook hands with President Raul Castro at Nelson

Mandela's funeral. Everybody saw that. They are polite, well educated

human beings and they say hello to each other. That is the way it

should be. Isn't it more than that? Would George Bush have ever done

anything like that with Fidel Castro? It was an important symbol,

wasn't it? President Obama has changed the style of authority. He

is completely different from his predecessor. But if he had listened

to the people of Miami by facilitating travel for

Cuban-Americans to Cuba, still he continues to forbid that two

American Americans. President Raul Castro has been quoted in December

of last year that if we really want to move our bilateral relations

forward, we will have to learn to respect our differences, talking

about the US, if not, we are ready to take another 55 years in the same

situation. Really? Isn't that just bluster? Well, it's a metaphor to

reflect the feelings and strength of belief of the population. The fact

is that the Cuban people have resisted for 54 years. Not just the

first generation of the revolution but their children and their

grandchildren. The main point is that that policy has long been

defeated. It's a failed policy. That's the worst part of it. But you

just said the Cuban population was behind that sentiment, but President

Raul Castro said. Of course, it's difficult to gain public opinion in

Cuba, but I can give you one example. I won't name him, but one

retired state worker said that when he heard this, he is not ready for

more of the same situation. He is 72 and would like to see light at the

end of the tunnel before he dies. There must be many more like him who

want to see normalised relations and the end to the embargo. My dear

lady, I would love to live another 50 years even if it was under the

American embargo, but I don't think such a long time will be necessary.

It will be very difficult for the US to continue this social policy in

complete isolation. They are the ones who are completely isolated in

the Western Hemisphere regarding Cuba. Havana was the venue last

January of a head of state conference attended by everybody in

the Western Hemisphere. The community of Latin American and

Caribbean states does not include the US or Canada. It is a Latin

American and Caribbean group and it is presided over by Cuba. What

isolation are they talking about? Why'd you think the US takes this

position on Cuba? You have been to the US. I think that the main

problem is that for the US, Cuba is not a big problem. It's a minor

thing. It's a very little island close to their shores and the US can

resist being condemned every year at the UN. So what? Do you think that

there will be a normalisation in diplomatic relations between Cuba

and the US? I do believe that. I don't think that a policy that is

not rational and is not to the benefit of the world can last

forever. How soon until we might see real change, do you think? May

be... I cannot be sure because I don't know what will happen in the

US in the next few years. Let's look at one big change that has happened

in Cuba. Raul Castro succeeded his brother Fidel Castro as president in

2008 and in 2010, said, I want to introduce economic reforms. I want

to introduce some market principles to the command economy, state-run

enterprises in Cuba. Does that mean that the Cuban government is now

less antagonistic towards private business? Of course it's not

antagonistic at all. As a matter of fact, the Cuban revolution created

more private, small private entrepreneurs than any other regime

in the history of Cuba. We created the agrarian reform law that created

thousands of small farmers and gave them the titles to the property of

their land. That is going back to the revolution after a two step in

the late 1950s. We are not so antagonistic. But most people in

Cuba before these reforms were employed by the state. You could be

a hairdresser and be employed by the state. That's true. But now you have

these changes that Raul Castro has brought in. For instance, you can

now buy and sell property. You can lease land from the government and

you can farm that. There have been these reforms. Is the Cuban

socialist revolution going capitalist? No, but we are really

finding out our socialism. We do not believe... What was perhaps one of

the worst effects of the Cold War years... In those days, people on

the left assumed that there was one socialism, a so-called real

socialism, and that failed completely in Eastern Europe. The

fact is that the real socialist society should come from within,

from inside, from its own culture and traditions. In other words,

there is no such thing as a socialist model to be followed by

all. You have changed your model. That is the point. A report by the

Centre for democracy says that the reforms that have taken place in

Cuba highlight and acceptance that market forces can play a role in

economic policy, so these reforms are broader and more permanent than

the kind of changes you might have seen in the past. Do you accept

that? Entirely. Therefore, I ask you again, is the Cuban socialist

revolution adopting some capitalist principles? And if so, isn't that an

admission that the system as it has been practised in Cuba is partly

failed? It is recognition of certain realities. The world has changed.

You have to adjust to a changing world on the one hand. It is a

recognition also of some mistake, of some exaggeration of the hairdresser

example that you put. As an example of an exaggeration of the role of

the state. What mistakes? What mistakes did the revolution it

really does make? Having a lot of activities that could be performed

by individuals, by families, and that are not necessarily to be in

the hands of the state. We believe that what socialism means is the

state ownership or control over the main means of production. That's not

a hairdresser. That's not a small plot of land. That's not a small

trade business. The state will still be the key economic player in the

human economy. But when you CB Communist Party member of... Said in

2012, by 2017, 40 5% of Cuba's GDP will be from different forms of

non-state production, that is, in private hands, that sounds like a

big chunk. Nearly half of Cuba's GDP not controlled by the state? That's

an erosion of state power in the economy. Control does not

necessarily mean direct ownership and management. Control also

prefers... We believe that society should be organised in such a way to

guarantee so that everybody has free education, free healthcare. By the

way, our system is not far at all from the British system in

healthcare. What is that? Capitalist smack a socialist system? A

republican system? But you cannot guarantee jobs for life in the

public sector. You have issues. You say you want to give people what

they want. Let me give you one example. Look at consumer goods. The

authorities say that they will relax some of their restrictions on people

buying things. You can buy a basic, simple car in Cuba if you have

$260,000. And the average salary is $20 per month. You are not giving

the people what they want. Maria Rosas, a 42-year-old office worker

in Cuba, makes $12 per month. She says she sees things like a

blender, a sandwich maker or a steam iron that she would like to have,

but I cannot afford to. How does that make you feel? Cubans say they

want to buy basic household goods but they cannot afford them. People

in our country... All people in all countries have difficulties finding

a job. But not to that extent. Even in developing nations in Africa,

they own cellphone. I hope you don't go pursue that woman, now... But she

can go to the best hospital, she can have the best education. And she can

get that for her children as well without paying a cent. You said, in

the UK you have a health system, comedy have a similar thing in Cuba.

In the UK, you can go and buy something like a steam iron, as well

as having a healthcare. Some people are more equal than others. We have

more access to those goods than others. Who has access to those

goods, who is buying them? Obviously there is inequality. That is a

consequence of the market. Who is buying those goods, a sandwich maker

that may cost $20 in other countries, may cost three times

elsewhere. Basic consumer goods are released three times as much as they

are online in most countries. Who can afford to buy these things if

the basic salary is $20 a month? There are balances in our economy

that are precisely... The reforms are aimed, among other things, to

eliminate them, to make those imbalances disappear. 2012, 40 7000

Cubans left Cuba permanently, we think. A lot of people. Remember

that those are people who get an American Visa and the basis for

getting a US Visa is to have a relative in the US. But they are

leaving, in their thousands. More than they did since 1994. More

people are leaving Cuba than ever before. I am not prepared to

disclose publicly, the number of those who are doing the reverse

travel. Those Cubans who are going back to Cuba from the US. As it

happened with some Latin American countries. If that really so? A

Republican senator of Cuban parent said, how come I never hear about

boatloads of refugees going to Cuba? He does not want to hear. Why can't

you disclose these numbers? He is lying. We should be talking about

that person. You said there are a lot going back. Why can't you

disclose the number? You only need to go to the airport in Miami, which

is the airport that has more flights to Cuba. Daily flights. Only for

Cubans, and some of them, after their land in the country, basically

want to remain. We are not going to see the names and their figures,

because they have measures against those people to punish them. They

have families in Miami. You said, we have high literacy rate in Cuba, I

will not quit again, but he makes the point, what is the point of the

literacy rate when you do not have access to the Internet? Access to

the Internet in Cuba is the worst in the world. Gino any other country

that US companies are not permitted to operate in? Do you know any other

country... What does that have to do with your media within the country?

Newspapers, the state has a monopoly. You mentioned the

Internet. Every country in Latin America gets access to the Internet

through a cable that moves around the island of Cuba, except Cuba.

Cuba cannot use it because it is under US control. Then what do they

save? What about freedom of expression, you have human rights

organisations, a UN body on human rights saying that freedom of

expression is lacking. There are other trees the tensions still. --

arbitrary. Some journalists are in jail for months at a time without

trial. Is their freedom in the media in Cuba? There is not. It is not the

best media. Cubans have certain possibilities of expression that

they would not have around the world. Nations were they took about

reforms, every one of them, all of them, have been discussed with the

people. The people have the opportunity to express themselves

and to modify proposals. For 20 years I was president of the

National Assembly. I never voted on a law without having it discussed

with everybody. That does not exist in other societies. I want to ask

you about your campaign for Cubans who are held in US prisons.

Americans say they have been spying. Two of been released. That is a big

obstacle to better relations between Cuba and the US. E.g. That you have

-- incubate you have a US contractor who was trying to bring Internet

communications to the Jewish committee in Cuba. The US committee

had the right to say it, they deny that allegation. Would you swap the

remaining three Cubans being held in US prisons for spying for him? Happy

that they should be free. He should also have the opportunity to see his

family. We have said, time and again, the Foreign Ministry, our

representatives, have said time and again that Cuba is prepared to sit

down with the US to solve the issue, to find a humanitarian

solution to that. But, at the same time, we also have two address

legitimate Unitarian concerns related to the fibres are now three,

and their families. They have been separated for a long time. Just

quickly on that, will you see movement on that? I hope so. They

think that the US is getting the message. President Raul Castro says

he will not be running again in 2018 as president. His older brother has

already gone off the scene. You, in your mid- 70s, you were removed from

the commerce party's powerful Central committee. Do you think that

it is time to make way for a new generation of leaders, sooner,

rather than later? Of course. I agree. They behave following that

principle. I am retired. Imagine my success or. He is not a young boy,

but he is much younger than me. I think that that is the way it should

be. Should the president stepped down? At think that if it were up to

him, he would have done that. I think he will continue performing

his duties as president until the term of his mandate. Ricardo

Alarcon, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. It was a pleasure, it was

not that hard. It was a fairly glorious, springlike

weekend for some parts of the UK.