Tamara Rojo - Artistic Director/Lead Principal, English National Ballet HARDtalk


Tamara Rojo - Artistic Director/Lead Principal, English National Ballet

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Welcome to HARDtalk. There is a new ballet under production about one of

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the bloodiest conflicts in the 20th century. It is the idea of Tamara

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Rojo. She grew up in Spain, made her dancing career in Britain and is now

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Artistic Director and Lead Principal at the English National Ballet. This

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performance at the Barbican is an attempt to do something different at

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what is usually a conservative ballet. With some of the stars

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arguing that ballet should be tough, and a new generation of dancers who

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have gone through a demanding training in Japan and China

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beginning to flourish, can Tamara Rojo triumph over tradition?

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Tamara Rojo, welcome to the programme. Tell me about your

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journey from a child Spain to becoming the Artistic Director and

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Lead Principlal at the English Natonal Ballet. It has to do a lot

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with luck. You have to be at the right place at the right time. In

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Madrid, I did not know what a ballet performance looked like. They would

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allow television to show ballet from a youth company and I decided that I

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wanted to study with them. That was the beginning of my good luck, to

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stumble into this amazing school. Then, when I was 19, I went to an

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international ballet competition in Paris and from that I got my first

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contract in Britain which was in Scotland, in Glasgow. When I was

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doing Romeo and Juliet there the director of the English Natonal

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Ballet saw me, and offered me a contract with the English Natonal

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Ballet because he was about to create his own Romeo and Juliet.

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Then I came to London and had three wonderful years and then moved to

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the Ballet, were I was for 20 years and then I decided to go back to the

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English Natonal Ballet. I took the directorship. This is a different

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role to take on compared to your previous one. You are still dancing

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as well. This production, lest we forget, the First World War that

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scarred Europe is kind of everywhere at the moment. Was it just

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topicality at the moment alone, or did you think it would be a good

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subject for ballet for other reasons? It was very much to do with

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what I have learned in my 17 years in Britain. It is about how

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important this war is for the British psyche, how it is still

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moving and disturbing in some ways, how many questions have been

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unanswered. I was not just trying to do it because everybody else is

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doing it. The fact that so many people are doing it is not a plus

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really. I wish it was just us. It is such a big subject. We could look at

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the politics of war but it is the emotional weight, the emotional

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value of a war that is more difficult to convey. That is where

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dance can really be at its best. We are incredible with emotions. We can

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really convey the loss and be true sense of the personal drama. It is

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sometimes forgotten, especially by a focus on the politics. What is the

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cost for each individual? It is a story of a generation of men

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perishing in the trenches. You have decided to increase the position of

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women in ballet so people might find the subject matter rather a

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difficult choice. World War I was very important for women, they took

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the role of men in factories and they took over the agriculture and

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all of the responsibilities and the jobs of men. A lot of what you will

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see on the stage is about the change of the role of women. That was also

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incredibly important. You have said in one interview that your message

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to the audience is that I need you to see the choreographers of today.

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There are four choreographers and they are all men. They are. I did

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approach a couple of women, especially one for this project, but

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she was expecting a baby so that was good news for her but bad news for

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me. In this case, I also wanted to work with the men that I considered

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to be the most important choreographers in Britain. I wanted

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them all to be based here because I really wanted this angle of

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approach. I wanted the British angle about the war. You said last summer

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that there are some issues that you would like to see approached by

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women on the stage. Very often we see relationships approach from a

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male perspective. Like in pornography, it shifts were you look

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at things and women and men have different sensibilities. Quite often

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what you see in choreography in women is that the first thing they

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discuss is the emotional context. What is the situation here? Who are

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you in relationship to me emotionally? With men we tend to

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focus on the language, their vocabulary and identity as

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choreographers tends to come first. It is different. It is not better or

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worse, but different. It would be good if we could see more often

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other ways of working. Do you think that the lack of a female vision in

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ballet and more obviously at the moment might be one of the factors

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about why ballet schools are reporting plenty of boys wanting to

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dance but they're struggling to find as many girls as they used to? It is

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a strange thing. It also has to do with role models. Carlos Acosta had

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a huge influence and Billy Elliot as well, both the movie and the

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musical. This is a totally unlikely situation for a ballet star, a

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mining town, and he becomes a dance star. Those models meant that little

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boys were not embarrassed to say that they wanted to be a ballet

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dancer and their perceived it as something that they were allowed to

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dream about. Somehow, we have not had these kind of role models as

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strongly in terms of female roles in ballet. I think that there are very

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strong role models in the pop industry and in the fashion

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industry, and girls tend to choose those jobs now. They want to be

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singers and television personalities. Ballet does not have

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its own Lady Gaga. We do not and it is a profession which is very about

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much dedication, a profession where you cannot make it just of luck or

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by saying something witty once in awhile. If what you want to pursue

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celebrity fame and fortune, you will not find this through ballet. You'll

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find something a lot more rewarding but it will also demand a lot more

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from you. I think that maybe today we give a lot of value to celebrity

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and wealth and that is where ballet cannot compete. If we went back to

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more important values, about dedication and the amazing award

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that comes from something you have fought for to gain, then ballet

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wins. You talk about dedication. There has been a lot of debate about

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the pressures that are on women dancers. About 6% of women in the

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general population have eating disorders. According to a doctor who

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works with dancers, it is three times that rate. Did you have to

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struggle with it as a young dancer? Very much so. From a very early age,

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as soon as I hit puberty, I was very much aware that these changes were

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not welcome and that I had to try and control my body and make it stay

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in a prepubescent shape. That was an incredible struggle for me. The

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worst thing that happens ` at least it used to happen and I was young `

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this was done with no tools or information. I am very hopeful that

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it is not the case any more. It made me miserable. It took away so much

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of the joy of dancing that it was not really worth it. I have seen

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people lose the joy of dancing because of this pressure. This

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fashion for ultra`thin ballerinas was very much something in the 1980s

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and 1990s. This is not the case now. The schools are more aware of giving

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nutritional advice and in the English Natonal Ballet we have

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professionals to help those who have any problem. I have always made very

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clear that it is not for me an issue that makes or breaks a ballerina.

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I'm not interested, I just want people with talent. You talk about

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professional advice and you're saying that you're trying to bring

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that approach to the English Natonal Ballet. An expert employed by you

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and other dance companies has said that in ballet there are problems

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with eating disorders and people get scared and they say they do not want

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it has been kept very quiet. Part of it has been kept very quiet. Part of

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the reason for that fear is that they are afraid if they reveal

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things in that kind of situation, they will somehow go back to the

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people in charge and suddenly they will not get good roles any more. Is

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that a real fear? It is a reasonable fear. I am hoping that it has a lot

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to do with the culture of an organisation. I'm hoping that in the

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English Natonal Ballet we have an open culture so that there is no

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fear about that. They know that they can talk to these professionals

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completely anonymously and that it will never get back to me or to the

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sport psychologist. It is something that you need to give time for

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dancers to realise that there is no consequence about having a problem,

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whether it is drugs or alcohol, stage fear, food. You talk about

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culture. It is quite an important point. We had a series of stories

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such as the attack at the Bolshoi such as the attack at the Bolshoi

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Ballet, acid being thrown in people's eyes, which exposed a

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culture of fear, rivalry, and aggression. We had the criticism

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from a ballerina at La Scala and the pressure she said that people were

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under and experiencing anorexia. She was sacked but then there was a

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backlash accusing people of a campaign against the dance world in

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general. Is this a profession where people feel that they have to keep

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things within themselves, that it is disloyal somehow to ballet to talk

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about this? I am not sure. I am aware that very often when

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ballerinas retire the focus is so much on what they had to sacrifice `

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the pain and the blisters, the injuries, and it becomes so

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horrendous that you question about why you did it in the first place.

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We never spend any time talking about the joy and the huge

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satisfaction that being a ballet dancer gives you. However, if there

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are serious issues, then it is only right that the dancers should speak

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up. Do you think that ballet dancers work too hard? It depends. Some

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companies never have time to rehearse. The dancers get injured

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all the time. Others plan it better. It is a question of, where do you

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choose to work? You work six days a week until after nine o'clock. Maybe

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that is a good example. That is true. I am a workaholic. I am doing

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two jobs. I am doing something that I was very aware was going to happen

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and is for a limited amount of time. That is interesting. As part of your

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working day break off from the office even when not involved in a

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production and you go and rehearse an exercise with the dancers. I do

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class every day with the dancers. I have meetings and even if I have to

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come back to the theatre, I come back to the theatre. I understand

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that my work is very broad. But I think it works for us. I am so much

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in touch with what they are going through. That is important when you

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are changing an organisation. I am making some changes in terms of the

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repertoire. I need to understand how they are feeling and how it is

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translating into their bodies. How they are coping. Can I go up another

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gear or do they have to stop there? Let them do just what they are doing

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and wait to push them. You say you know it will only be for a certain

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amount of time that you will be juggling two jobs. Have you met a

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decision when you will retire? I have. Can you tell us? No. I do not

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want to do a big farewell. I just want to allow other ballerinas in my

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company to have the spotlight. Once I think they are in that place where

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they do not need my name to sell tickets, I will move into the

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office. We talked a bit about taking some of the pressure off dancers.

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But some people think that maybe this generation is getting easier

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than it should. One newspaper was told, kids are always distracted

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nowadays and the new generation, the passion and commitment has

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diminished. Things have to be easy and ballet

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Should it be? It is not easy. He has a point on concentrating on one

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thing and only one thing at a time. Today, not only the kids, but

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because they have borne with technology, they are used to doing

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so many things. Sometimes the people that joined the company have

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difficulty concentrating on one task and finishing. That is true. But

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that is something we will find everywhere. It is going to be more

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difficult to achieve that level of perfection in one particular skill

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if you are not able to dedicate the hours and interest. He mentioned the

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repertoire, choreographers. This approach of bringing in

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choreographers who have not got a ballet background. You said in one

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interview that for you performing in this has been a sense of dancing and

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then suddenly having to push my centre of gravity into my pelvis. Is

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it that different? It is very different. His language is

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contemporary. The centre of gravity is so much lower. The placement of

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your whole body and a skeleton is so different. Everything is about

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projecting. With them it is more intimate and about the inside. There

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is a huge shift physically and technically. But it is interesting.

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The fact that he comes from a classical tradition as well means

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that in ways that are unexpected we have so much in common. That

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approach to protectionism. One head is only one way. There is no two

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ways about it. I was not expecting that level of detail. He certainly

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has it. Is it ballet? I do not see the limitations. It is dance. And

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that is what interests me. Ballet has always progressed when it has

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absorbed other ways of dancing. The only reason why Paris Opera became

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more interesting is that when they moved to Russia they absorbed the

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traditional dancers. When they moved to Denmark, the absorbed. The fact

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that ballet is able to absorb the dancers and refine it to the

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absolute maximum of what you can do and enriches the art form. I do not

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see the limitations. You were talking about coming in with new

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traditions. Some of the contemporaries are frustrated by the

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old schedules. I would like to retire the classical version of Swan

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Lake so companies have more room for new work. I would not. I can

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understand why he feels that we need to maybe balance more the level of

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classical ballet and other repertoire. The one thing that I

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keep remembering is that those classical ballet performances are

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the first step into the art form for most people. 85% of the people who

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come to see the Nutcracker is the first time they have come to see

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ballet. That makes me think that what my job is that once they come

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for the first time, is to be able to get them interested in coming again

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to something different and then something else different. If I

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retire those they would not come at all. That is why I am not confident

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happy with the concept of retiring them. Also because there is still

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Mozart, still the classic. They are still the main way that ballerinas

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and ballet dancers can achieve those steps that make you become a dancer.

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You are not worried that they crowd out the other potential of new work?

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In a company like yours, it is not wealthy, it relies people on pain to

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come and see shows. That almost forces you to keep people coming

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again and again. It forces people, but it also allows me to spend money

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on something interesting. Nutcracker funds the rest of the season. It is

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give and take. I have to live with the fact that I would prefer not to

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do 40 Nutcrackers, but 20. But the extra 20 allow me to do Lest We

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Forget. One person said classical dancers always spend years with the

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company. And artistic director imagined that long years of training

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would allow them to tread their current narrow treadmill. That is

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not the case anymore. All of the choreographers, that is not a narrow

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treadmill. It is really wide. Let us not forget that it is the repetitive

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number of shows is what gives me the opportunity to take chances with

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younger dancers. In companies where you only have 12 Nutcracker

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performances, you only see the principal dancers. When you have 40,

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you will see the principles and be able to give opportunities to young

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dancers. That means dancers that come from the school are very

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capable to be a principal dancer rather than within a decade. ``

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within four years. Believe me, it makes a huge amount of difference.

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And you know from your own experience. I do. Thank you for

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joining us on HARDtalk. . This year, we were just coming to

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the end of the might on record. This time

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