Hala Shukrallah - President - Constitution Party, Egypt HARDtalk


Hala Shukrallah - President - Constitution Party, Egypt

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Welcome to HARDtalk. More than 500 supporters of Mohammed Morsi were

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sentenced to death this week. It is the latest crackdown on the Muslim

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Brotherhood, banned under the country 's new constitution. My

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guest today is the newly elected leader of a party founded to save

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the revolution of three years ago. Hala Shukrallah is the first female

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leader of a political party in Egypt and the first question. But in a

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party polarised between the military and Islamist, the liberal secular

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opposition has struggled to get support. Does Egypt deserve a better

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position? Hala Shukrallah, President of the

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Constitution Party of Egypt, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much

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hundreds of people sentenced to death after a trial that lasted just

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two days. What are your thoughts on that judgement? It is pretty

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shocking. Regardless of whether it is being passed on a violent group

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that we know have been involved in the burning of churches and shops of

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Christians and so on. The whole death scene has been incredibly

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draining and pretty horrendous and daunting for any kind of democratic

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force or alternative. Who do you blame for the fact that we are in

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this situation where that many get the death penalty? Who do you blame

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for that? It is not one person. You cannot blame one institutional party

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or a group of people. It is a whole environment that feeds on each

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other. It is a violent, and that breeds more violence, and the way

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that the political scene is being led, continues to create that cycle.

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We know that the Muslim Brotherhood are a violent group, that they use

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violence as a force of change. They use it as a way of reaching their

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own objectives and their own projects of the country. But the way

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that they are also being addressed and is targeted, in a very sweeping

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way, I think broadens that kind of environment and continues to lead us

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into a cycle that is not look like it will end very soon. I will be

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blaming a lot of people. I will be blaming the institutions that

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exist, the security institutions that exist, the state institutions,

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and I would also blame the Muslim Brotherhood, regardless of the fact

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that they are incarcerated, many of them are incarcerated. They have put

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an extremely dangerous strategy forward and they have not been able

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to back down from it at all. They continue to wield the threat that

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they are going to lead Egypt into an inferno. This inflames people 's

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feelings more and more and pushes us, as democratic forces, into a

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corner. You told us this month that you would not sit at the same table

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to talk with the Muslim Brotherhood. You said that it would

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not happen until they are punished for their actions and that those

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implicated in the acts of violence are seriously punished. We are

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talking about this kind of thing? Definitely not. What we are talking

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about? I believe that everyone should be punished to the degree of

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the crime. Definitely 500 would not have been involved in the murder of

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one or two people. Punishment for the burning of shops of Christians,

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that has a specific sentence. I am sure that is the same in your

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country. The discourse of hate has its own punishment. Incitement to

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violence has its own punishment. There has to be some kind of

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graduation or progression of the kind of punishment that you meet out

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for different crimes. It is not a blanket sentence. I do think that

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they should be held accountable. Should they be banned? Any kind of

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organisation that uses religion and hate discourse as a way of behaving

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should definitely have a lot of regulations that they should be

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subject to. The new constitution, I support many things in it but others

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I do not. The fact that it treats the Muslim Brotherhood is a

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terrorist organisation, that is the right way to deal with them is its?

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I believe they are a terrorist organisation. Whether it is the

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right way to deal with them solely in a security fashion, that is

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something else. I think they should be dealt with in a specifically...

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Through discourse. That is what uncovered them. That was during

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their year of rule, they were totally uncovered, their whole

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discourse was very clear and very flagrant and that is what brought

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them down. That is the way any kind of political solution should be

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done. When you look at what has happened since the overthrow of

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Mohammed Morsi, who was in a critical elected, but that overthrow

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of which your party was part, and the founder of your party then took

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part in the government that took over from President Mohammed Morsi,

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when you have seen what has happened since have you not thought that it

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was a mistake? Should you not have gone about it in a different way?

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The 30th of June was not a mistake. What I would have hoped to have

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happened was that Mohammed Morsi would have stepped down. He should

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have conceded to the people 's will. It would have created a completely

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different path. Even if months before that he would have sat down,

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as the democratic forces asked him to do, and talk through the policies

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that he was acting and enforcing them that would have completely

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directed us in a different way. We would not have been where we are

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now. The head of the army is widely expected to stand in these

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elections. You are Coptic and your own Pope says that he has a national

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duty to stand because Egyptians see him as a saviour and a hero. It is

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expected he will stand and win. What you think about that, that your

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future president is likely to be the current head of the army? I do not

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follow my Pope, I do not follow anyone. My opinions are my own. What

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I feelings towards him winning the election? I have stated that opinion

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over and over again on Egyptian television and in newspapers. I am

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not supportive of military persons entering the political arena will

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stop I am for somebody from the democratic camp, definitely this

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would be my choice and it would be whom I party would support `` whom I

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party would support. We are fighting for democratic rule in Egypt. Can I

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be clear here. You are saying if he is elected, that is not the

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democratic process? I think it would endanger the democratic process and

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that is what I have been saying. Anyone who comes from a state

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institution with the weight of the army, with the level of power, there

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is a danger that he comes in supported by that institution and

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backed by its support. It does not mean that there is an equal chance

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for another nominee. You are speaking about a compromise of the

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democratic process. You talk about if the military when is it infringes

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the democratic process and then the Muslim Brotherhood, who you

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described as terrorists, but there is an opposition and people are not

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choosing to go with parties like yours. And that is why some analysts

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say that Egypt deserves a better position the new and you do not

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mobilise the people. There needs to be spine from parties like yours. I

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am sure that is correct in one way. It is a correct way of analysing the

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situation but you have to understand that we are a new party. We are one

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and a half years old and we have already been dealt with these

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incredible changes. From the minute that I have been in this position,

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these are the challenges that we are facing. You facing the challenge of

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becoming a party that is connected to the people, that engages with the

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issues that most concern the people, that mobilises them, that becomes

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part of these battles, the daily battles of people. You accept that.

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A charge levelled against you is that you do not represent the

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people, you lack a connection with Egypt's streets. Do you accept that?

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No. Our party is made up of thousands of the youth who were part

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of the 25th of January and 30th of June revolution. You do not have an

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elitist party that has made up of intellectuals and pseudo`

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intellectuals who sit and discuss nothing. You do not have the reach

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of the Muslim Brotherhood in how it can run schools and hospitals and

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shops. You do not `` we do not have 40 years under our belts or the

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support of the state that the Muslim Brotherhood has had. It is not a

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competition. What am saying is that what we do have is a clear vision of

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where we want to get, a determination that we will get

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there, and a base of young people who are part of a three`year

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revolution that have under their belts quite an incredible experience

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that they have seen and been through and they are determined to get to

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where their dreams have led them. Your vision of the future of your

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party, what is its? How would you define it? I would define it as a

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party that could become the party of the people. A majority party and the

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party that can actually mobilise around other democratic groups and

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parties and lead that process. This is what I hoped for and what am

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working for and I think this is what we can get to. As difficult as it is

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and is foggy as the picture is, the deepest hope that people are

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carrying in their hearts is that. Can I ask you about the difficulty?

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This is a tiny party. At its peak it had 25,000 members. 35% of Egyptians

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had not heard of the National salvation front. How do you reach

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people? How do you realise this vision? We have branches in 37 `` 28

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areas. We have something like 312 branches. We have a party that has

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an outreach to every major city and government in Egypt. That is not a

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tiny party in comparison to other parties. What you do have is

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potential. You have 20`25,000 members. You have a potential for

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growth that is enormous. What you have also decided those 25,000 is a

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very broad movement of people, organised in trade unions, groups,

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coalitions, different ways. And this coalition would have you at its head

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as Prime Minister or President? Why would it have me as Prime Minister

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or President? This is not what I am saying. I am asking what your

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personal ambitions. I have my basic ambition. To get this party on the

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ground and make it to become an alternative as a democratic force. A

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democratic alternative. We always have people who would want to get

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into the presidential elections, but that is not me. So you do not want

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to be president. It is not my personal choice. I have led this

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party and pushed and have been pressured by the use. You are a

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reluctant leader. I am a very reluctant leader. Can I ask you

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about that? You are the first woman to lead a political party in

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Egypt's history. I have not reluctant because I and a woman.

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Apparently Egypt is the worst Arab state to live in if you are a woman.

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That was out of 22 countries. This was a result of research into

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violence and harassment. It had become harder for women. Have you

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found that you have been attacked for being a woman faced more abuse

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than male colleagues? No. Definitely, I am not saying that

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because I am trying to paint the picture as Rosie, I have not had any

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attack from my party. Comments? Or vitriol? I have not had any kind of

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hate mail or negative media comments. And from other parties. It

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has been extremely positive, which is strange. I expected some kind of

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negative comments. And the women around you? Is that something you

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recognise as a picture of Egypt for women in Egypt? I think I do. What I

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said at one point is that I smell change. Definitely, that is what we

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are seeing. There are three years, three years of incredible momentum

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and changes and that has left its mark on the psyche of people, on

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consciousness and emotions. What we have seen over the changes that are

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sometimes big, sometimes minor, but change is happening. So when you

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look at the mouth genital mutilation, which is huge in Egypt.

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`` female. In theory, it is against the law. Will that be something that

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changes? Is that something that belongs to the past? These are

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probably the hardest to change. These are ingrained cultural

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traditions that happen in the deepest of the countryside. I would

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say that changes can happen in the cities. But these are the slowest to

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change. What you have are the faster changes, probably the political

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changes that can occur. Definitely the visibility of women in the

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political scene has had on the consciousness of people. ``

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reflected. Women have been in the front ranks of the revolution. They

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have been vocal. They have led movements. They are leading trade

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unions. This is translating into the demand for rights and realising

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those rights. We are definitely going to be seeing that more. But

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also a backlash over and over again. One thing the party said that

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the to re`evaluate the value of American assistance to make sure the

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costs do not outweigh the benefits. America is about to decide whether

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to resume its paid $1.5 billion. `` its aid of. Is your belief that

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Egypt can do without it? We need to re`evaluate our own economic

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situation. But not the relationship with America? You do not evaluate a

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nation `` relationship with a whole people without evaluating your own

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objectives. Is that objective counter to that relationship? And

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America should resume its $1.5 billion of aid? I am not to tell the

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US government what to do. But Egyptian society, as a country,

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should have its own strategy for economic development. It has not had

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that for a very long time. It has been dealing with hand to mouth,

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relying mostly on debt, which is ridiculous. This has to change. We

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have to have our own policies that reflect our own interest is and the

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interests of our people. The party was founded to save the revolution

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of the Arab uprising. The Coptic Pope described the uprising, it was

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neither a spring or an Autumn. It was an Arab winter brought by

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malicious forces in our region to break up countries into smaller

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states. Does he have something? Or was it something beneficial to your

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country? Definitely the latter. The Arab spring reflected a dream and

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they hope that this region can break through autocratic rule and actually

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achieve freedom and social justice and human dignity. Those are the

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slogans that people were charging and have been charging for three

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years. `` chanting. It is not something that you can discount in

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that way and it is very sad that someone say that. It is going to be

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realised. It will realise its calls if not now, definitely some years

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down the road. Hala Shukralla, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank

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you. All to the prospects over the next

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few days. There will be some showers around as well. Some brightness

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around first thing in the morning, but the showers will be feeding in

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from the east. It is a deteriorating picture. Go west. Joan. It will be a

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reasonable start. `` for

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