Hala Shukrallah - President - Constitution Party, Egypt HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. More than 500 supporters of Mohammed Morsi were

sentenced to death this week. It is the latest crackdown on the Muslim

Brotherhood, banned under the country 's new constitution. My

guest today is the newly elected leader of a party founded to save

the revolution of three years ago. Hala Shukrallah is the first female

leader of a political party in Egypt and the first question. But in a

party polarised between the military and Islamist, the liberal secular

opposition has struggled to get support. Does Egypt deserve a better

position? Hala Shukrallah, President of the

Constitution Party of Egypt, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much

hundreds of people sentenced to death after a trial that lasted just

two days. What are your thoughts on that judgement? It is pretty

shocking. Regardless of whether it is being passed on a violent group

that we know have been involved in the burning of churches and shops of

Christians and so on. The whole death scene has been incredibly

draining and pretty horrendous and daunting for any kind of democratic

force or alternative. Who do you blame for the fact that we are in

this situation where that many get the death penalty? Who do you blame

for that? It is not one person. You cannot blame one institutional party

or a group of people. It is a whole environment that feeds on each

other. It is a violent, and that breeds more violence, and the way

that the political scene is being led, continues to create that cycle.

We know that the Muslim Brotherhood are a violent group, that they use

violence as a force of change. They use it as a way of reaching their

own objectives and their own projects of the country. But the way

that they are also being addressed and is targeted, in a very sweeping

way, I think broadens that kind of environment and continues to lead us

into a cycle that is not look like it will end very soon. I will be

blaming a lot of people. I will be blaming the institutions that

exist, the security institutions that exist, the state institutions,

and I would also blame the Muslim Brotherhood, regardless of the fact

that they are incarcerated, many of them are incarcerated. They have put

an extremely dangerous strategy forward and they have not been able

to back down from it at all. They continue to wield the threat that

they are going to lead Egypt into an inferno. This inflames people 's

feelings more and more and pushes us, as democratic forces, into a

corner. You told us this month that you would not sit at the same table

to talk with the Muslim Brotherhood. You said that it would

not happen until they are punished for their actions and that those

implicated in the acts of violence are seriously punished. We are

talking about this kind of thing? Definitely not. What we are talking

about? I believe that everyone should be punished to the degree of

the crime. Definitely 500 would not have been involved in the murder of

one or two people. Punishment for the burning of shops of Christians,

that has a specific sentence. I am sure that is the same in your

country. The discourse of hate has its own punishment. Incitement to

violence has its own punishment. There has to be some kind of

graduation or progression of the kind of punishment that you meet out

for different crimes. It is not a blanket sentence. I do think that

they should be held accountable. Should they be banned? Any kind of

organisation that uses religion and hate discourse as a way of behaving

should definitely have a lot of regulations that they should be

subject to. The new constitution, I support many things in it but others

I do not. The fact that it treats the Muslim Brotherhood is a

terrorist organisation, that is the right way to deal with them is its?

I believe they are a terrorist organisation. Whether it is the

right way to deal with them solely in a security fashion, that is

something else. I think they should be dealt with in a specifically...

Through discourse. That is what uncovered them. That was during

their year of rule, they were totally uncovered, their whole

discourse was very clear and very flagrant and that is what brought

them down. That is the way any kind of political solution should be

done. When you look at what has happened since the overthrow of

Mohammed Morsi, who was in a critical elected, but that overthrow

of which your party was part, and the founder of your party then took

part in the government that took over from President Mohammed Morsi,

when you have seen what has happened since have you not thought that it

was a mistake? Should you not have gone about it in a different way?

The 30th of June was not a mistake. What I would have hoped to have

happened was that Mohammed Morsi would have stepped down. He should

have conceded to the people 's will. It would have created a completely

different path. Even if months before that he would have sat down,

as the democratic forces asked him to do, and talk through the policies

that he was acting and enforcing them that would have completely

directed us in a different way. We would not have been where we are

now. The head of the army is widely expected to stand in these

elections. You are Coptic and your own Pope says that he has a national

duty to stand because Egyptians see him as a saviour and a hero. It is

expected he will stand and win. What you think about that, that your

future president is likely to be the current head of the army? I do not

follow my Pope, I do not follow anyone. My opinions are my own. What

I feelings towards him winning the election? I have stated that opinion

over and over again on Egyptian television and in newspapers. I am

not supportive of military persons entering the political arena will

stop I am for somebody from the democratic camp, definitely this

would be my choice and it would be whom I party would support `` whom I

party would support. We are fighting for democratic rule in Egypt. Can I

be clear here. You are saying if he is elected, that is not the

democratic process? I think it would endanger the democratic process and

that is what I have been saying. Anyone who comes from a state

institution with the weight of the army, with the level of power, there

is a danger that he comes in supported by that institution and

backed by its support. It does not mean that there is an equal chance

for another nominee. You are speaking about a compromise of the

democratic process. You talk about if the military when is it infringes

the democratic process and then the Muslim Brotherhood, who you

described as terrorists, but there is an opposition and people are not

choosing to go with parties like yours. And that is why some analysts

say that Egypt deserves a better position the new and you do not

mobilise the people. There needs to be spine from parties like yours. I

am sure that is correct in one way. It is a correct way of analysing the

situation but you have to understand that we are a new party. We are one

and a half years old and we have already been dealt with these

incredible changes. From the minute that I have been in this position,

these are the challenges that we are facing. You facing the challenge of

becoming a party that is connected to the people, that engages with the

issues that most concern the people, that mobilises them, that becomes

part of these battles, the daily battles of people. You accept that.

A charge levelled against you is that you do not represent the

people, you lack a connection with Egypt's streets. Do you accept that?

No. Our party is made up of thousands of the youth who were part

of the 25th of January and 30th of June revolution. You do not have an

elitist party that has made up of intellectuals and pseudo`

intellectuals who sit and discuss nothing. You do not have the reach

of the Muslim Brotherhood in how it can run schools and hospitals and

shops. You do not `` we do not have 40 years under our belts or the

support of the state that the Muslim Brotherhood has had. It is not a

competition. What am saying is that what we do have is a clear vision of

where we want to get, a determination that we will get

there, and a base of young people who are part of a three`year

revolution that have under their belts quite an incredible experience

that they have seen and been through and they are determined to get to

where their dreams have led them. Your vision of the future of your

party, what is its? How would you define it? I would define it as a

party that could become the party of the people. A majority party and the

party that can actually mobilise around other democratic groups and

parties and lead that process. This is what I hoped for and what am

working for and I think this is what we can get to. As difficult as it is

and is foggy as the picture is, the deepest hope that people are

carrying in their hearts is that. Can I ask you about the difficulty?

This is a tiny party. At its peak it had 25,000 members. 35% of Egyptians

had not heard of the National salvation front. How do you reach

people? How do you realise this vision? We have branches in 37 `` 28

areas. We have something like 312 branches. We have a party that has

an outreach to every major city and government in Egypt. That is not a

tiny party in comparison to other parties. What you do have is

potential. You have 20`25,000 members. You have a potential for

growth that is enormous. What you have also decided those 25,000 is a

very broad movement of people, organised in trade unions, groups,

coalitions, different ways. And this coalition would have you at its head

as Prime Minister or President? Why would it have me as Prime Minister

or President? This is not what I am saying. I am asking what your

personal ambitions. I have my basic ambition. To get this party on the

ground and make it to become an alternative as a democratic force. A

democratic alternative. We always have people who would want to get

into the presidential elections, but that is not me. So you do not want

to be president. It is not my personal choice. I have led this

party and pushed and have been pressured by the use. You are a

reluctant leader. I am a very reluctant leader. Can I ask you

about that? You are the first woman to lead a political party in

Egypt's history. I have not reluctant because I and a woman.

Apparently Egypt is the worst Arab state to live in if you are a woman.

That was out of 22 countries. This was a result of research into

violence and harassment. It had become harder for women. Have you

found that you have been attacked for being a woman faced more abuse

than male colleagues? No. Definitely, I am not saying that

because I am trying to paint the picture as Rosie, I have not had any

attack from my party. Comments? Or vitriol? I have not had any kind of

hate mail or negative media comments. And from other parties. It

has been extremely positive, which is strange. I expected some kind of

negative comments. And the women around you? Is that something you

recognise as a picture of Egypt for women in Egypt? I think I do. What I

said at one point is that I smell change. Definitely, that is what we

are seeing. There are three years, three years of incredible momentum

and changes and that has left its mark on the psyche of people, on

consciousness and emotions. What we have seen over the changes that are

sometimes big, sometimes minor, but change is happening. So when you

look at the mouth genital mutilation, which is huge in Egypt.

`` female. In theory, it is against the law. Will that be something that

changes? Is that something that belongs to the past? These are

probably the hardest to change. These are ingrained cultural

traditions that happen in the deepest of the countryside. I would

say that changes can happen in the cities. But these are the slowest to

change. What you have are the faster changes, probably the political

changes that can occur. Definitely the visibility of women in the

political scene has had on the consciousness of people. ``

reflected. Women have been in the front ranks of the revolution. They

have been vocal. They have led movements. They are leading trade

unions. This is translating into the demand for rights and realising

those rights. We are definitely going to be seeing that more. But

also a backlash over and over again. One thing the party said that

the to re`evaluate the value of American assistance to make sure the

costs do not outweigh the benefits. America is about to decide whether

to resume its paid $1.5 billion. `` its aid of. Is your belief that

Egypt can do without it? We need to re`evaluate our own economic

situation. But not the relationship with America? You do not evaluate a

nation `` relationship with a whole people without evaluating your own

objectives. Is that objective counter to that relationship? And

America should resume its $1.5 billion of aid? I am not to tell the

US government what to do. But Egyptian society, as a country,

should have its own strategy for economic development. It has not had

that for a very long time. It has been dealing with hand to mouth,

relying mostly on debt, which is ridiculous. This has to change. We

have to have our own policies that reflect our own interest is and the

interests of our people. The party was founded to save the revolution

of the Arab uprising. The Coptic Pope described the uprising, it was

neither a spring or an Autumn. It was an Arab winter brought by

malicious forces in our region to break up countries into smaller

states. Does he have something? Or was it something beneficial to your

country? Definitely the latter. The Arab spring reflected a dream and

they hope that this region can break through autocratic rule and actually

achieve freedom and social justice and human dignity. Those are the

slogans that people were charging and have been charging for three

years. `` chanting. It is not something that you can discount in

that way and it is very sad that someone say that. It is going to be

realised. It will realise its calls if not now, definitely some years

down the road. Hala Shukralla, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank

you. All to the prospects over the next

few days. There will be some showers around as well. Some brightness

around first thing in the morning, but the showers will be feeding in

from the east. It is a deteriorating picture. Go west. Joan. It will be a

reasonable start. `` for