Kenneth Kaunda - President of Zambia (1964-1991) HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am here in the Zambian capital, Lusaka. Today

I'll speak to Kenneth Kaunda. Leader of the struggle for independence, he

was sentenced to hard labour in prison by the British before he went

on to become Zambia's first president of the post`colonial era.

It is a landmark year for Zambia, the 50th anniversary of its

independence, and Kenneth Kaunda himself turns 90. What has 50 years

of freedom brought the people of Zambia and elsewhere on the

continent? Kenneth Kaunda, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you for having me. For those of us who don't remember, just give

us an idea of what it was really like to live under colonial rule in

Africa. It was a terrible experience. Because we are living

under apartheid. Separate schools, separate hospitals, separate

everything. In these schools, only a handful of whites and browns. They

had everything, many hospitals, while the black majority had little.

How did it make you feel? Did you feel humiliated? When you went to

the shop to buy something, and it was given to you through a

pigeonhole, and you've got it knowing that you are angry about

this, you don't like what's taking place. And yet you are quiet about

it. It was a really hard time. One day I remember I went to buy a

bicycle. I paid some money through a

pigeonhole and then this man said, come round now and get your bicycle.

I said, young man, I paid for this bicycle through this pigeonhole.

Please get me this bicycle out of that place through this pigeonhole.

LAUGHTER. And he said, what do you mean? I said, I mean what I am

saying. I paid through the pigeonhole. Get me the bicycle

outside the shop through this pigeonhole. We quarrelled for some

time. So, we quarrelled and quarrelled and in the end I got back

my money. You became very active in politics, eventually there was the

United National Independence Party created, you became one of the

foremost fighters for independence in what was to become Zambia. You

paid a price for your agitation against the British colonial

presence. You were sentenced at one time to hard labour in prison. Yes.

Did that stiffen your resolve? Several times I went to prison. I

went in, came out, continued fighting racism in every corner. You

say fighting racism. You think the British colonial system was based on

racism? Of course. What is the meaning of buying things through

pigeonholes? You think the British at the time were racist? Not all of

them were. Everything they were doing was racist. What was it like,

then, that moment, the official ceremony, when your country became

Zambia, independent, and you became the first president? It was a time

worth noting. When the British flag came down and ours went up, it was

quite a time. The Queen paid attention to the ceremony when it

became Zambia. You have spoken about your great love and respect for the

Queen. How do you reconcile that sentiment with the fact that she

presided over the government which was presiding over your people in

the manner in which you say you had to fight them? How do you reconcile

those two sentiments? Admiring the Queen on one hand and opposing the

government that acted in her name? She has been a great person from the

beginning of my time. I have no bad feelings about her. Even when

Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister and we quarrelled and quarrelled. I

still have a lot of respect for her. You see the Queen as being above

politics? No doubt about it. That's exactly how we saw her. When

Margaret Thatcher said, don't go to Lusaka, that man is hopeless. How do

you know she said that? The Queen said, look, I am head of the

Commonwealth. I am going to Lusaka. How do you know about this? I was

told about it. By who? But me tell you. I said I was going and I am

going to head the Commonwealth summit there. The Queen came. But I

was told about what Margaret Thatcher had done. My colleagues and

I organised a dancing evening. Because she tried to stop that

conference being held in Lusaka. I wanted to show her that we were not

against her, by not avoiding the Queen. So, when the music was

played, I got up, my then wife got up, I went to pick her up and

dancing nicely. Others followed us. So, a good beginning. So you were

dancing with Margaret Thatcher and your late wife was dancing with

Denis Thatcher? That must have been quite a sight. We mentioned your

role supporting the freedom movement in southern Africa. But you are the

last of that generation which was caught up in what was described as

the winds of change, where Africa was decolonised in that very intense

period in the 1950s and the 1960s. You knew all the characters then.

What was it like to be part of that period in history? The founding

fathers of independent African states? It was a wonderful time. We

were planning the future of Africa. We helped each other. Do you think

that those Africans, who led their countries into independence, that

somehow that great hope was lost? That the people did not enjoy the

benefits of decolonisation? Where is Ghana today? Where is Angola today?

Where is Mozambique today? There are some difficulties in South Africa.

But how far have some of them gone with that struggle? Why did you make

Zambia a one`party state in 1972? Why did you decide that party

democracy wasn't right? Look at this thing in the right way. When we go

towards the elections, I went to see my leader of the African Congress. I

said, look, let's come together and form a government of the people of

Zambia together. In the end, he agreed. So, we went for the

elections, we won, I made him minister of education, I made him

minister of lands. We came together. We knew that if we didn't do that,

some in South Africa would destroy us. The Boers would destroy us. I

knew South Africans were very keen to destroy Zambia. So, they were

keen to isolate me from other leaders in Zambia. Because of that,

I went ahead and spoke to personal leaders in Zambia. Don't do that,

don't listen to that, if you do that, this is a destroyed country.

You didn't want them to exploit different parties in Zambia and use

them to undermine you? That was your justification? Exactly. Why were you

then always the only candidate on the list to become president? Why

didn't you have a choice? I was elected by the people of Zambia. But

you were the only one on the list. Many other leaders were there. They

will all play a role in the running of Zambia. When you look at

independent Africa, do you feel that the people of Africa have enjoyed

freedom from poverty? Arguably, they haven't when we look at the

statistics over the past few decades. Sub Saharan Africa is still

the least developed part of the world and people, to this day, still

don't get their basic needs met in terms of shelter and healthcare,

even food. Are people in Zambia starving today? Not starving, but

there are huge poverty levels. People do not have access to basic

needs. You have a short life expectancy in Zambia. Around 50. It

is different from what you are saying. If you look at what the

government is doing in terms of agriculture today, it's a real

development. Real development. Looking at Zambia, you also see a

situation which has been discussed across the continent, ties with

China. You were probably the first African leader to bring the Chinese

into your country in a major project at the time, the railway linking

Zambia with a port in Tanzania. Fast forward, and what do you think of

the Chinese presence in Africa? It is fantastic. Today, Zambia is

building schools, hospitals, clinics. Zambia is building roads.

In many different parts of the country. Zambia is developing very

fast, because of China's assistance. But even the governor of the Central

Bank of Nigeria has talked about the trade links with China and Africa.

He says, they take our resources and sell us back cheap manufactured

goods. He says that is the essence of colonialism. He is implying that

the Chinese are practising a kind of neo`colonialism. Does he have a

point? No. China is not a colonial power. It isn't. They are good

friends of ours. When you, as the key member of the freedom fighters

who brought Africa to independence in the 1950s and 60s, look at the

continent today, you must be dismayed when you see some of the

ethnic tensions that we are seeing even today. The Central African

Republic, tensions between Christians, South Sudan, Nigeria and

the activities of Boko Haram against their own people. That must fill you

with dismay, when you see that conflict? Don't forget that in

Berlin, 1884... Yes, the conference. What happened there? You shared up

Africa. It has taken a long time to gain our independence. It took a

long time to get our independence. Are you saying that the ethnic

tensions we see now in several countries in Africa is because of

the colonial legacy? Of course. All those years later? How can you dodge

that? You can't. The impact of that conference in 1884. The carving up

of Africa. But you are a committed Christian. Your father was a man of

the church. Why do you think today we see African Muslims fighting

African Christians in the Central African Republic? We see the

activities of Boko Haram in Nigeria. This is a new phenomenon. It is

terrible, I agree. That we should be fighting, Islam and Christianity

should fight for the good of Africa. It is terrible. What the good lord

Almighty is telling us, do unto others as you would have done unto

you. But you see you preached that message of unity and fraternity as

Nelson Mandela, your close friends did, why is it that the message you

preached of unity, fraternity, the message of Nelson Mandela, is not

being received? It pains me to see Christians and Islam in Egypt, in

Syria, all these places, fighting each other. In the Central African

Republic. Why are we doing that? Why is it happening? Christianity and

the Islamic faith should find a way of working together. When you were

President Kenneth Kaunda of Zambia, who struck an unusual note. One of

your ten children died of HIV/Aids. You were still president then. You

brought him in his dying days, to state house. A lot of people

criticised you, asking why you are washing your dirty linen in public.

There was a stigma attached to HIV/Aids. `` AIDS. This disease, HIV

and AIDS, is a disease like any other. My wife and I... So, our son

suffered from a disease and because of the stigma that is put against

that disease, any child dying of it, the parents say it's malaria. We

thought it was right that we should fight this stigma. My child, his

wife was staying with him. We brought his family to come to state

house, to demonstrate to the people of Zambia that the stigma on this

disease is not right. That is how we began to fight stigma of AIDS. As a

family, as leaders of the nation. We did that. When my boy died, we

announced that he died of AIDS. You said at the time, my child has died,

he was a brilliant boy. He was only 30 but he had four children. You

will soon be celebrating your 90th birthday. When you look back on your

long life, how do you think you can describe your legacy? I thank God

that he guided me to help fight apartheid. To bring about a

situation where race was not a problem. Where we agreed to work

together as human beings and as God's children. I responded to God's

teaching. I would like to be remembered, in that I contributed to

that situation. Kenneth Kaunda, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

Thank you for coming. If you have been watching the

weather forecast, you will know we have been talking about the

south`easterly breeze. It's been responsible for the warmer feel for

most of us.