Benjamin Chavis - Civil Rights Activist HARDtalk

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talk. Welcome to HARDtalk. We are broadcasting from the radio Theatre

in London. Benjamin Chavis was one of the Wilmington ten who were

wrongfully convicted in the 1970s for firebombing a supermarket during

racial unrest in North Carolina. Amnesty International called

America's first political prisoners. They were only granted a part in

just over one year ago. Benjamin Chavis has campaigned his whole life

for black people to have the same freedoms as white people. Working

for Martin Luther King when he was just 14, many years later he

organised the million man March. America is called the land of the

free, does that apply if you are black? Ladies and gentlemen please

welcome Benjamin Chavis. Does a black child, born in America

in 2014 have just as many opportunities as a white child? I

believe that a black child born this year in the US has more

opportunities than ever before but still not equal opportunities. We

still have racial prejudice, bias, racism is still a factor in our

society. But I can give you a long`term answer. In the last 50

years, I have seen tremendous progress. The fact that we have an

African`American as the president of the US is testimony to the dream of

Martin Luther King Jr.. Freedom is a constant struggle so you do not take

for granted the progress until there is a full integrated society. So

there is still a need for the civil rights movement? Absolutely. Let's

take it back to the 1970s in Carolina. That was a time when the

schools had just ended segregation. But lack the there felt they were

getting a raw deal. You were sent there as a young man. You are a

minister in the church and you were sent there to do what? I was 24

years old. Even though I was 24, I was a veteran of the civil rights

movement. The United Church of Christ sent me to Wellington to help

with the desegregation progress. We had to go to a Federal Court.

Wilmington was under court order to make black student and white

students who do school together a riot took place. Even though we were

victims of the right, we were the target of white supremacist

organisations. One year later, in 1972, we were undyed and were

charged. Ten of us were such to `` charged to 282 years in prison.

Those few days, perhaps we should explain what it was like for a young

black guy growing up in the US at that time. In the early 1970s, it

was three years since Martin Luther King Jr. 's assassination. Ronald

Reagan was president. There was a law and order campaign to suppress

the civil rights movement after the assassination. I was one of the

young student militants. I must admit. That was a rousing the black

consciousness of our community. My church sent me to Wilmington to help

provide an opportunity for young people to express themselves. How?

You used the word militant which is just you are prepared to go pretty

far to get what you wanted. I was pushing the envelope. Basic freedom

is the freedom of expression. The right to say no to racism. The right

to say no to in justice. A lot of times in many places, not just the

US, People's rights to even say no to injustice has been suppressed.

And that was the case in Wilmington in 1971. You had come from, you are

the first black child to have a library card. I grew up in Oxford,

North Carolina. It was not that simple to get a library card. I wish

it was that simple to just ask. We had to organise protests. In case of

the segregating the library, my parents were still with me. I was so

proud that they stood with me as I demanded the right to simply check a

book out of the library. Racism is very devastating to any group, any

racial group that denies you basic opportunity, basic assets. Even

though I was very young, I understood that something needed to

change. So you were angry, justifiably, given what you are not

able to do but what does that mean that you did in Wilmington. You say

that you are the victims. One thing that I learnt from Martin Luther

King was how to channel anger into protest. That is what we did. I

believe in standing up, but you have to stand up in the right way. With

freedom comes responsibility so we organised nonviolent protest. A Mac

there was a white owned grocery store which was firebombed that

night. Somebody firebombed, not the Wilmington ten. Nobody really knows

what happened. And two people died. Here is the thing. It took 40 years.

The first female governor of North Carolina. We were sentenced in 1972

will stop it took 40 years for the Governor, not just issue a part in

to issue a pardon of innocence. That was very important. They did their

research and realised that we should not have been arrested. We should

not have been imprisoned or prosecuted in the first place. I am

very thankful that the governor of North Carolina had the courage to

issue asked a pardon. But why was it courageous because actually, your

conviction had been overturned years before back in 1980. There were

various things that happened, your sentence was reduced, the testimony

was retracted. A court overturned the conviction and yet it was 40

years and you say it was courageous, why? Because sometimes it is

difficult for people in a dominant role in society to confess to

racism. That is difficult. The Governor in issuing the pardon said,

this is a case of naked racism. That is difficult for the officials. Even

in 2012. Even now. And given the fact of the case. Sometimes it is

not about the fact. And it was not because, actually, it wasn't so

clear cut that there were some people who think, whatever happens

then that you may have had some role in it. I definitely had a role in

mobilising. I had a role in standing up and speaking out we were totally

innocent of the false charges. Conspiracy to sell emergency

personnel. You served for a half years. What was that like? I would

not encourage anyone to go to prison to strengthen their faith. Prison

was difficult. It was hard and life`threatening. I decided to keep

my faith in God. I decided not to serve time but make time served the

cause of the liberation movement of our people. What do you mean by it

life`threatening? There was one report that you did not dare go to

the shower rooms for six months. The first six months, I could not go to

the shower because there was a plot to stab me in the showers that I did

not want to get stabbed so I stayed in my cell. You say that you used

the time to get a masters degree in theology. I was a minister and I

wanted to sharpen my skills. Anyone have to decide how you use your

time. Whether you are free or in prison, he is how you use your time

to make your own self better, to make your community better and to

make the world better. And you read in the bathroom at night could you

could not use lights out in the cell. That is correct. You

eventually, when you come out, you continue, at this stage the

conviction has been overturned but you have not been pardoned. When you

are in your 40s, you elected to lead what is a hugely important

organisation. Important to you because you are given membership for

your 12 birthday. It is America's worst, largest civil rights

organisation with half a million members. It is the world 's oldest

civil rights association. I was so pleased having joined it at 12 years

old. To be elected in 1993. One of my proudest moments was inviting

Nelson Mandela in 1993 to speak at the convention. But it did not go

well because within a short time, someone threatened to bring a case

against you for sexual harassment, discrimination, wrongful dismissal.

You are ranged a settlement with the groups of funds and you did not tell

the board. It came out and they sacked you. Let go back to the

facts. When you are a civil rights movement leader, people will make

false allegations against you. At the time, there was an employee who

made false allegations. Why did you agree to pay her? I wanted to reach

an out of court settlement to protect the organisation. I want to

correct one thing, some members of the board did know about it. The

chairman knew about it as well as the general council. Do you regret,

was it a mistake to use money to try and settle... You say the

allegations... The mistake was not to inform the full board. Do you

think the whole board would have agreed? Absolutely. To spend

?300,000. That amount was not spent. One of the reasons it came to light

was that you gave her less than and you did not settle the full term. I

read that personally. I just want to correct the record. You were sacked

one year later. Was there a sense of betrayal that led you then to go

from there to accept a senior position in the Nation of Islam? I

don't think it was a betrayal. I am still a life member of the NAACP, I

still support the NAACP. You said you felt it was a crucifixion at the

time. I am a veteran of people making false allegations, so I know

how to withstand it. Not a victim feeling? It is not about feeling

like a victim, I think it is important, if you are victimised by

any kind of injustice, to have the freedom to speak out against it, and

also to call the facts as they are. The facts as they are, you joined

the Nation of Islam, took a senior position in a separatist movement, a

controversial separatist movement, calling for its own... That

African`Americans should have their own nation. Was that a wise thing to

do? Absolutely. First of all, let's get the chronology straight. After

the NAACP, I was the national director of the Million Man March,

still as a Christian minister. That was in 1995, I did not join the

Nation of Islam until 1997. I am very proud of the work that I did

while I was in the Nation, we helped reduce black on black crime in many

communities, helped to stop some of the self`destruction that was going

on in many neighbourhoods. That is why I joined, because I wanted to

get more hands`on on improving the lives of young African`Americans.

That was the whole purpose of the Million Man March, which was very

successful, transformative. Sure, but after the Million Man March, you

changed your name to Benjamin Chavis Mohamed, and there were criticisms

of the Nation of Islam, that it still existed, but that they were

anti`Semitic, antiwhite, prejudiced against gays, is that how you came

to see them? No, absolutely. Even though I work very closely with

ministers, and I did have a senior position in Nation of Islam, and no

time did I ever witness or hear any anti`Semitism. On one occasion,

there was one person, a former collective of the Nation of Islam,

who made some anti`Semitic remarks, and I denounce that person for doing

it. There are several comments of one person referring to the Jews as

satanic. The work that I did with the Nation, I am very proud of. We

helped save lives and transform lives, the Million Man March... It

is almost the 20th anniversary of the Million Man March, and I think

it will be a moment that people celebrate. It is the largest

gathering on October 16, 1995 in American history. I understand. But

your association with the Nation of Islam that your former... I

associate with a lot of people. Thank God for my associations. I

associated with Martin Luther King, I associate it with Nelson Mandela.

Why did you fall out with them? I didn't fall out with them, I just

went back to the church. Why didn't the Nation of Islam get rid of you?

It is not about getting rid of, it is about evolving. Why life is about

evolving. We are celebrating freedom in 2014. Love and good times?

Absolutely. You returned to your church, who decided to terminate

your ministry. A didn't feel that a Christian minister should try to be

a Muslim minister, that is their right. Can you see their point? It

is a little contradictory to say that with God all love is possible,

and then we try to do all things that are possible, and people

criticise you. I am very proud of my evolution, and I think that you

learn as you go in life, and I thank the world in which we live in

today, is a much better place because people sacrifice, people

stand up, people speak out. No mistakes their weekly Nation of

Islam? Not at all. You said at the outset that huge progress has been

made, but there is still a lot. A black child born today does not have

the same opportunities as a white child. When you look muddy are

staggering. In the 70s, in 1967, they basically earned half of what a

white household debt. That has hardly changed. Black unemployment

rate, home ownership, black unemployment is still double the

rate of white people as it was in the 50s. Why have those economic

possibilities not changed for black people? There is a problem of income

inequality, institutionalisation of economic injustice, and it takes

time. You do not solve a problem, a social problem, a racial problem, in

two or three decades. It takes a long time. We are talking about 50

or 60 years, and these are hardly shifting, these figures. There is a

serious contradiction about the disproportionate impact of the

criminal justice system in the US has had on black people, no question

about it. I want to make sure you are understanding what I am saying.

The figures that you have said are accurate. Those figures expose the

problem of racial injustice, and that it is very deep`seated in in

the US. Even though we have an African American as president, that

doesn't mean that we don't still have problems. The fact that we have

a black President in the White House is itself a very serious step

forward, to not only shedding light on these contradictions, some people

say that the glass is half empty. I don't, I say it is half full. All

the progress we have made is worth continuing to keep pushing.

have healthcare. We don't have that in the US. It takes time. When

President Obama was elected, the economy was wrecked. George W Bush

wrecked the economy. There were two wars that we should never have been

in, in Iraq and Afghanistan. He has entered those wars. The NAACP says

of him that since he took office, white people in this country are

doing better, and black people are doing a full point worse. The

responsibility of the NAACP is to call it where it is... And that is

the way it is? That is the way it is. The income gap for blacks and

whites has widened. Since President Obama came in? No, it was widened

before he came in. That is what they are saying. That is not accurate. I

am reading". Since President Obama first took office. I believe the gap

between blacks and whites in the US is too wide. The question is, how

can it be bridged? I believe that President Obama is doing a good

job, I think that they have just had a report that the housing statistics

and the foreclosure rates, blacks had the highest foreclosure rates,

which started before Obama became president, but now it is coming down

a bit. Black unemployment is still one of the highest, but it is coming

down a little bit. All of these things you have to calibrate, and I

think that taking a broad stroke analysis of whether or not Obama is

a good president or not, it is sort of unfair. Perhaps it comes down to,

your whole life... If you compare Barack Obama to President Bush,

hands down, he is a better president. Hands down. The American

philosopher and academic, Cornell west, said that if you keep folks

intimidated and scared, you give them access, but they are still

scared, and as long as they are scared you are on the plantation.

Here is a close friend of mine, we are colleagues. Certainly, he is one

of the great intellectual giants of our society. His criticisms have

some validity, but my point is that we tend to be overly critical, we

tend not to see the progress that is being made, and particularly for the

young people who are coming up today, my job is to keep them in,

not to discourage. This is not a hopeless situation, we have made

progress, is there more progress to be made, yes. Are we headed in the

right direction, yes. Should it be in the hands of the people? It is

always in the hands of the people. This militant, do you still feel

militant? It depends on what you mean by militant. You used the word

at the outset. I am still a seasoned militant freedom fighter. Today.

But, I fight for freedom in ways that can really help change the

quality of life of people. Not just for black people, but for all

people. I just want to make sure that you understand that I am here

on this programme not only to fight for the rights of black people, but

for the rights of all people. What you find out, it you can't stand up

for freedom for yourself, you have to stand up for freedom for people.

Lax, whites, Latinos, Asians, people from all over the world. `` blacks.

That is why I have worked all over the world to make sure that

people's writes are improved. Martin Luther King said it best, and

injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. You would still

be asking for people to rise up at injustice? Absolutely. Keep

marching, keep standing up, is keep speaking out. We had a bigger

worldwide freedom movement than we did 50 years ago,

Good morning. When Nissan came out on Tuesday it was