Benjamin Chavis - Civil Rights Activist HARDtalk


Benjamin Chavis - Civil Rights Activist

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between the plane and eight traffic control shows nothing abnormal. That

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is it. You are up`to`date with all the stories. Now a BBC News, it had

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talk. Welcome to HARDtalk. We are broadcasting from the radio Theatre

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in London. Benjamin Chavis was one of the Wilmington ten who were

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wrongfully convicted in the 1970s for firebombing a supermarket during

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racial unrest in North Carolina. Amnesty International called

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America's first political prisoners. They were only granted a part in

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just over one year ago. Benjamin Chavis has campaigned his whole life

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for black people to have the same freedoms as white people. Working

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for Martin Luther King when he was just 14, many years later he

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organised the million man March. America is called the land of the

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free, does that apply if you are black? Ladies and gentlemen please

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welcome Benjamin Chavis. Does a black child, born in America

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in 2014 have just as many opportunities as a white child? I

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believe that a black child born this year in the US has more

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opportunities than ever before but still not equal opportunities. We

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still have racial prejudice, bias, racism is still a factor in our

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society. But I can give you a long`term answer. In the last 50

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years, I have seen tremendous progress. The fact that we have an

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African`American as the president of the US is testimony to the dream of

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Martin Luther King Jr.. Freedom is a constant struggle so you do not take

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for granted the progress until there is a full integrated society. So

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there is still a need for the civil rights movement? Absolutely. Let's

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take it back to the 1970s in Carolina. That was a time when the

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schools had just ended segregation. But lack the there felt they were

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getting a raw deal. You were sent there as a young man. You are a

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minister in the church and you were sent there to do what? I was 24

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years old. Even though I was 24, I was a veteran of the civil rights

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movement. The United Church of Christ sent me to Wellington to help

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with the desegregation progress. We had to go to a Federal Court.

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Wilmington was under court order to make black student and white

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students who do school together a riot took place. Even though we were

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victims of the right, we were the target of white supremacist

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organisations. One year later, in 1972, we were undyed and were

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charged. Ten of us were such to `` charged to 282 years in prison.

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Those few days, perhaps we should explain what it was like for a young

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black guy growing up in the US at that time. In the early 1970s, it

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was three years since Martin Luther King Jr. 's assassination. Ronald

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Reagan was president. There was a law and order campaign to suppress

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the civil rights movement after the assassination. I was one of the

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young student militants. I must admit. That was a rousing the black

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consciousness of our community. My church sent me to Wilmington to help

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provide an opportunity for young people to express themselves. How?

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You used the word militant which is just you are prepared to go pretty

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far to get what you wanted. I was pushing the envelope. Basic freedom

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is the freedom of expression. The right to say no to racism. The right

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to say no to in justice. A lot of times in many places, not just the

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US, People's rights to even say no to injustice has been suppressed.

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And that was the case in Wilmington in 1971. You had come from, you are

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the first black child to have a library card. I grew up in Oxford,

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North Carolina. It was not that simple to get a library card. I wish

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it was that simple to just ask. We had to organise protests. In case of

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the segregating the library, my parents were still with me. I was so

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proud that they stood with me as I demanded the right to simply check a

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book out of the library. Racism is very devastating to any group, any

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racial group that denies you basic opportunity, basic assets. Even

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though I was very young, I understood that something needed to

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change. So you were angry, justifiably, given what you are not

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able to do but what does that mean that you did in Wilmington. You say

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that you are the victims. One thing that I learnt from Martin Luther

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King was how to channel anger into protest. That is what we did. I

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believe in standing up, but you have to stand up in the right way. With

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freedom comes responsibility so we organised nonviolent protest. A Mac

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there was a white owned grocery store which was firebombed that

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night. Somebody firebombed, not the Wilmington ten. Nobody really knows

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what happened. And two people died. Here is the thing. It took 40 years.

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The first female governor of North Carolina. We were sentenced in 1972

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will stop it took 40 years for the Governor, not just issue a part in

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to issue a pardon of innocence. That was very important. They did their

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research and realised that we should not have been arrested. We should

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not have been imprisoned or prosecuted in the first place. I am

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very thankful that the governor of North Carolina had the courage to

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issue asked a pardon. But why was it courageous because actually, your

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conviction had been overturned years before back in 1980. There were

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various things that happened, your sentence was reduced, the testimony

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was retracted. A court overturned the conviction and yet it was 40

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years and you say it was courageous, why? Because sometimes it is

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difficult for people in a dominant role in society to confess to

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racism. That is difficult. The Governor in issuing the pardon said,

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this is a case of naked racism. That is difficult for the officials. Even

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in 2012. Even now. And given the fact of the case. Sometimes it is

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not about the fact. And it was not because, actually, it wasn't so

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clear cut that there were some people who think, whatever happens

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then that you may have had some role in it. I definitely had a role in

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mobilising. I had a role in standing up and speaking out we were totally

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innocent of the false charges. Conspiracy to sell emergency

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personnel. You served for a half years. What was that like? I would

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not encourage anyone to go to prison to strengthen their faith. Prison

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was difficult. It was hard and life`threatening. I decided to keep

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my faith in God. I decided not to serve time but make time served the

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cause of the liberation movement of our people. What do you mean by it

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life`threatening? There was one report that you did not dare go to

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the shower rooms for six months. The first six months, I could not go to

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the shower because there was a plot to stab me in the showers that I did

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not want to get stabbed so I stayed in my cell. You say that you used

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the time to get a masters degree in theology. I was a minister and I

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wanted to sharpen my skills. Anyone have to decide how you use your

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time. Whether you are free or in prison, he is how you use your time

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to make your own self better, to make your community better and to

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make the world better. And you read in the bathroom at night could you

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could not use lights out in the cell. That is correct. You

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eventually, when you come out, you continue, at this stage the

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conviction has been overturned but you have not been pardoned. When you

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are in your 40s, you elected to lead what is a hugely important

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organisation. Important to you because you are given membership for

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your 12 birthday. It is America's worst, largest civil rights

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organisation with half a million members. It is the world 's oldest

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civil rights association. I was so pleased having joined it at 12 years

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old. To be elected in 1993. One of my proudest moments was inviting

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Nelson Mandela in 1993 to speak at the convention. But it did not go

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well because within a short time, someone threatened to bring a case

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against you for sexual harassment, discrimination, wrongful dismissal.

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You are ranged a settlement with the groups of funds and you did not tell

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the board. It came out and they sacked you. Let go back to the

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facts. When you are a civil rights movement leader, people will make

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false allegations against you. At the time, there was an employee who

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made false allegations. Why did you agree to pay her? I wanted to reach

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an out of court settlement to protect the organisation. I want to

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correct one thing, some members of the board did know about it. The

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chairman knew about it as well as the general council. Do you regret,

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was it a mistake to use money to try and settle... You say the

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allegations... The mistake was not to inform the full board. Do you

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think the whole board would have agreed? Absolutely. To spend

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?300,000. That amount was not spent. One of the reasons it came to light

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was that you gave her less than and you did not settle the full term. I

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read that personally. I just want to correct the record. You were sacked

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one year later. Was there a sense of betrayal that led you then to go

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from there to accept a senior position in the Nation of Islam? I

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don't think it was a betrayal. I am still a life member of the NAACP, I

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still support the NAACP. You said you felt it was a crucifixion at the

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time. I am a veteran of people making false allegations, so I know

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how to withstand it. Not a victim feeling? It is not about feeling

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like a victim, I think it is important, if you are victimised by

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any kind of injustice, to have the freedom to speak out against it, and

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also to call the facts as they are. The facts as they are, you joined

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the Nation of Islam, took a senior position in a separatist movement, a

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controversial separatist movement, calling for its own... That

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African`Americans should have their own nation. Was that a wise thing to

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do? Absolutely. First of all, let's get the chronology straight. After

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the NAACP, I was the national director of the Million Man March,

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still as a Christian minister. That was in 1995, I did not join the

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Nation of Islam until 1997. I am very proud of the work that I did

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while I was in the Nation, we helped reduce black on black crime in many

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communities, helped to stop some of the self`destruction that was going

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on in many neighbourhoods. That is why I joined, because I wanted to

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get more hands`on on improving the lives of young African`Americans.

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That was the whole purpose of the Million Man March, which was very

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successful, transformative. Sure, but after the Million Man March, you

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changed your name to Benjamin Chavis Mohamed, and there were criticisms

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of the Nation of Islam, that it still existed, but that they were

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anti`Semitic, antiwhite, prejudiced against gays, is that how you came

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to see them? No, absolutely. Even though I work very closely with

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ministers, and I did have a senior position in Nation of Islam, and no

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time did I ever witness or hear any anti`Semitism. On one occasion,

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there was one person, a former collective of the Nation of Islam,

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who made some anti`Semitic remarks, and I denounce that person for doing

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it. There are several comments of one person referring to the Jews as

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satanic. The work that I did with the Nation, I am very proud of. We

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helped save lives and transform lives, the Million Man March... It

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is almost the 20th anniversary of the Million Man March, and I think

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it will be a moment that people celebrate. It is the largest

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gathering on October 16, 1995 in American history. I understand. But

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your association with the Nation of Islam that your former... I

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associate with a lot of people. Thank God for my associations. I

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associated with Martin Luther King, I associate it with Nelson Mandela.

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Why did you fall out with them? I didn't fall out with them, I just

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went back to the church. Why didn't the Nation of Islam get rid of you?

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It is not about getting rid of, it is about evolving. Why life is about

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evolving. We are celebrating freedom in 2014. Love and good times?

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Absolutely. You returned to your church, who decided to terminate

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your ministry. A didn't feel that a Christian minister should try to be

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a Muslim minister, that is their right. Can you see their point? It

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is a little contradictory to say that with God all love is possible,

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and then we try to do all things that are possible, and people

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criticise you. I am very proud of my evolution, and I think that you

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learn as you go in life, and I thank the world in which we live in

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today, is a much better place because people sacrifice, people

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stand up, people speak out. No mistakes their weekly Nation of

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Islam? Not at all. You said at the outset that huge progress has been

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made, but there is still a lot. A black child born today does not have

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the same opportunities as a white child. When you look muddy are

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staggering. In the 70s, in 1967, they basically earned half of what a

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white household debt. That has hardly changed. Black unemployment

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rate, home ownership, black unemployment is still double the

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rate of white people as it was in the 50s. Why have those economic

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possibilities not changed for black people? There is a problem of income

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inequality, institutionalisation of economic injustice, and it takes

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time. You do not solve a problem, a social problem, a racial problem, in

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two or three decades. It takes a long time. We are talking about 50

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or 60 years, and these are hardly shifting, these figures. There is a

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serious contradiction about the disproportionate impact of the

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criminal justice system in the US has had on black people, no question

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about it. I want to make sure you are understanding what I am saying.

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The figures that you have said are accurate. Those figures expose the

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problem of racial injustice, and that it is very deep`seated in in

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the US. Even though we have an African American as president, that

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doesn't mean that we don't still have problems. The fact that we have

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a black President in the White House is itself a very serious step

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forward, to not only shedding light on these contradictions, some people

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say that the glass is half empty. I don't, I say it is half full. All

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the progress we have made is worth continuing to keep pushing.

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have healthcare. We don't have that in the US. It takes time. When

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President Obama was elected, the economy was wrecked. George W Bush

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wrecked the economy. There were two wars that we should never have been

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in, in Iraq and Afghanistan. He has entered those wars. The NAACP says

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of him that since he took office, white people in this country are

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doing better, and black people are doing a full point worse. The

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responsibility of the NAACP is to call it where it is... And that is

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the way it is? That is the way it is. The income gap for blacks and

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whites has widened. Since President Obama came in? No, it was widened

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before he came in. That is what they are saying. That is not accurate. I

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am reading". Since President Obama first took office. I believe the gap

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between blacks and whites in the US is too wide. The question is, how

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can it be bridged? I believe that President Obama is doing a good

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job, I think that they have just had a report that the housing statistics

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and the foreclosure rates, blacks had the highest foreclosure rates,

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which started before Obama became president, but now it is coming down

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a bit. Black unemployment is still one of the highest, but it is coming

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down a little bit. All of these things you have to calibrate, and I

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think that taking a broad stroke analysis of whether or not Obama is

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a good president or not, it is sort of unfair. Perhaps it comes down to,

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your whole life... If you compare Barack Obama to President Bush,

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hands down, he is a better president. Hands down. The American

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philosopher and academic, Cornell west, said that if you keep folks

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intimidated and scared, you give them access, but they are still

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scared, and as long as they are scared you are on the plantation.

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Here is a close friend of mine, we are colleagues. Certainly, he is one

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of the great intellectual giants of our society. His criticisms have

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some validity, but my point is that we tend to be overly critical, we

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tend not to see the progress that is being made, and particularly for the

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young people who are coming up today, my job is to keep them in,

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not to discourage. This is not a hopeless situation, we have made

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progress, is there more progress to be made, yes. Are we headed in the

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right direction, yes. Should it be in the hands of the people? It is

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always in the hands of the people. This militant, do you still feel

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militant? It depends on what you mean by militant. You used the word

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at the outset. I am still a seasoned militant freedom fighter. Today.

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But, I fight for freedom in ways that can really help change the

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quality of life of people. Not just for black people, but for all

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people. I just want to make sure that you understand that I am here

1:23:261:23:25

on this programme not only to fight for the rights of black people, but

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for the rights of all people. What you find out, it you can't stand up

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for freedom for yourself, you have to stand up for freedom for people.

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Lax, whites, Latinos, Asians, people from all over the world. `` blacks.

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That is why I have worked all over the world to make sure that

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people's writes are improved. Martin Luther King said it best, and

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injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. You would still

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be asking for people to rise up at injustice? Absolutely. Keep

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marching, keep standing up, is keep speaking out. We had a bigger

1:23:261:23:25

worldwide freedom movement than we did 50 years ago,

1:23:261:23:25

Good morning. When Nissan came out on Tuesday it was

1:23:261:23:26

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