Zwelinzima Vavi - Suspended Head of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) HARDtalk


Zwelinzima Vavi - Suspended Head of South African Trade Unions (COSATU)

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European security in a generation. Time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. South Africa hold elections in May, and

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complaints from workers are getting louder. Unofficial figures show that

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nearly half of the working population doesn't have a proper

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job, so what happened to the post` apartheid dream of work and

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education for all? My guest today it is Zwelinzima Vavi, the now

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suspended head of the site to, the powerful trade unions Alliance. Is

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it holding back South Africa's progress? `` COSATU.

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Zwelinzima Vavi, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for having me.

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Is it not the case that it is the trade unions in South Africa that is

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stopping the country's progress? I don't think so. I don't think you

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can say that the poverty and growing inequalities in South Africa are as

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a result of the unions. That would be a very incorrect answer to give.

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Let these plain what they mean unemployment, terrible in South

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Africa. Unofficially it is 35%. For young people in South Africa, as

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high as 50%. Your policies are not helping to get people working. We

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are not in government. The ANC is in government, we have been shouting

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from the rooftops, arguing that the current bonuses do not help us to

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resolve the crises. A knee`jerk reaction based on emotions and

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blackmail by the big business in South Africa, we haven't been

:02:01.:02:06.

listening to that. We think that the main source of the challenges, the

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triple crisis of inequalities in poverty, are as a result of

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structural deficiencies we inherited from the apartheid past, and we

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believe that those structural deficiencies had not been properly

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addressed so far. Let me put this to you, you are making a bad situation

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worse. One example, teachers in South Africa. A recent report by a

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think tank in the country, said that think tank in the country, said that

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maths teachers in primary schools in South Africa are amongst the worst

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in Africa. Worse than Uganda or Tanzania. It has been said,

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unionised teachers are not being held accountable for their

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underperformance. That is one example. The unions are getting in

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the way of basically allowing bad teachers to be sacked. If I had my

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way, do you know what I would propose for South Africa today? A

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deal on accountability. Accountability, not only of the

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teachers in the public sector workers, and the hospitals and

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municipalities, but also that we need a broader debate on

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accountability of leadership. The day in the public or the private

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institutions. Be a responsible for... You are talking about the

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scandal over the Homestead for President Jacob Zuma that has cost

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the public purse something like $20 million. I will raise your links

:03:47.:03:53.

with the ANC in a moment. But to continue this issue that the unions

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are not allowing for teachers to be sacked. What do you say to that?

:03:58.:04:04.

That is wrong. The Labour relations act in South Africa allows any

:04:05.:04:08.

employer to sack any underperforming employees, including teachers. That

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is not the case, though. Official statistics show that half of South

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Africa's children from the working poor leave school after 12 years

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with few skills and no hope of jobs, because they are basically not

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getting the right skills and training in schools to do their jobs

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that the country needs. You can't blame that on trade unions. It is,

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by the way, the very trade unions that have insisted that over the

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past five years, one of the priorities ought to be addressing

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the issue of education. You have mentioned already, we are

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cooperating with the countries in our region who have far less

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resources than South Africa has. If you don't address that functioning

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of the system, you may give up on ever finding a solution to the

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crisis is of unemployment. This is one where the unions can exacerbate

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the situation. You demand a decent living wage for all the workers who

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come under the COSATU umbrella. COSATU is the national Federation

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and Alliance of many unions, who represent workers in many unions. On

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this insistence on a minimum wage, even for unskilled workers, it means

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that there is a huge pool of unskilled labour can't get jobs

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because they have been priced out of the market. If you were to speak to

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any South African employer, the least you the most important... I

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bet it would not mention the wages. It would not say, we can't employ

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more people, we can't expand our companies because labour is priced

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out of the market. Nobody would say so. They would raise important

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issues. They will raise the electricity prices, they will raise

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the availability of water resources, they will raise the... Economics

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tells you that you need lower wage jobs to keep people employed

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formally. I put to you what the minister for national economic

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planning has said. He said, there are too many forces who want to

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thump their chests, and what this country needs is a labour market

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that operates efficiently. I agree with that. That means that we must

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fix the education system, they shall be workers have the skills that are

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demanded by firms, particularly in the manufacturing sector. Make sure

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that our manufacturing system is functioning, our schools are

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functioning, and it means that every school must have a laboratory, it

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must have all the instruments that you need to ensure that they are

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empowered to give the skills that are into demand. Mining accounts for

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50% of South Africa's exports. The strikes that we have seen in recent

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years are costing the South African economy $36 million per day. That is

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just one figure. What are you doing as a recognised trade union leader,

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to try to get control of this. Do you accept that there is a problem

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with strikes just running amok in some parts of the mining sector? Of

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course, that has been a problem. Of course, I have participated

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personally in processors to try to stabilise the mining industry.

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Including signing an argument with all of the government and business

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to ensure that there are greater levels of stability. I think that we

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have done well in stabilising the issue of strikes. What we see now is

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a legal strike, a protector strike, putting the demand through the

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union... For a higher minimum wage? For a higher minimum wage. That is

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naturally in any democracy. There are times when employers are unable

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to find a solution in negotiations, but what is more important in the

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context of the South African labour legislation is that most of the

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disputes between workers and their employers are concluded without the

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need to exercise power through strikes or lockouts. You do accept

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that some of the strikes have scared off investors. Gill Marcus, the

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governor of the South African central bank, said last year that an

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increasingly fraught labour relations environment and high wage

:09:14.:09:15.

reforms in the mining sector is likely to affect South Africa's

:09:16.:09:20.

credit ratings. Investors are being put off coming to South Africa. I

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don't think it is a crisis of people not wanting to invest in the mining

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industry as a result of the strike in the platinum sector, but I do

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accept that the strikes could have been resolved. I don't think any

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strike should last more than three weeks, because if you exercise

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power, it should be at a time when you know that the gap between what

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is on the table is such that you need power in the form of a strike

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to shift parties around. It is unfortunate that the strike has gone

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two months. This has been going offer a while, and it has cost South

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Africa hundreds of millions of dollars, and it is not that easy to

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just turn up the production again. A long time ago, if the parties

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involved in the negotiations were having a relationship, you must

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remember this is the new union that is organising the strike. This is

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its first national strike ever. That is in its ten years of existence.

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You are talking about the National Association of Mineworkers and

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construction union, which is not affiliated to COSATU. I am raising

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that issue in the context that before the strike happened this

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year, there had been many other worker strikes that would have

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damaged the relationship between the parties. I feel that at a broader

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political level, they should have been interventions `` there should

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have been interventions from eight broader level of government and a

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broader private sector, to force a settlement between those two

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parties. One of the biggest regret about the COSATU divisions, for

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example, is that COSATU was unable to jump into that opportunity and

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play a strategic role to ensure that the strike doesn't go on for so

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long. There have been grovelling is of discontent between members of

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COSATU and the ruling ANC. Take the metal workers union. That says it

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wants to sever the connections with the ANC. Is the ANC becoming a

:11:31.:11:37.

liability for? COSATUFrom their perspective, they have come to that

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conclusion, that the ANC is no longer a reliable friend. They can

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no longer be biased towards the interests of them. The society has

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been hijacked by the elites, and so the union has come to that

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conclusion. That is that particular metalworkers union we are talking

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about. What do you think? The only force that has the interests of our

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people at heart, a disciplined force of the left, with a bias towards the

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working class and the poor, it is the ANC. That is what Jacob Zuma

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said. I agreed with him fully when he said that. The ANC was pursuing

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restructuring education, healthcare, fighting rural poverty, ensuring

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that there is rural development, and fighting corruption. With the

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adoption of the new development plan by the ANC conference in September,

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which is now a mainstay policy of the ANC for the next five years, I

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will question that statement wholeheartedly. I will say, the

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economic policies that the government have chosen now,

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unfortunately it doesn't put them in the camp of a Labour friendly pro`

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worker proposition. You are posted at national development. The idea of

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that is to create new jobs. What is wrong with that? Do you disagree

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with the national development plan? The people will accept it. The issue

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is whether it is feasible using the instruments that have been chosen by

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the government, that that 11 million jobs will be created in 2013. This

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is where I come from. You disagreed with the national development plan.

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It says, let's have a private and public partnership to get South

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Africa working again. The key architect is Trevor Manuel, he was a

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highly acclaimed Finance Minister in South Africa from 1996 until 2009.

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This is a man with huge experience. Are you saying he has got it wrong?

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The diagnosis and the identification of the programme, the objectives,

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they are things that we will share, we will say they are spot`on in

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identifying the programmes. The enjoyment is chosen to address those

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programmes, we will disagree with them. `` instrument. Give me one

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brief example. The policies that they have chosen. I do not agree

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that this unemployment rate should preoccupy itself with an inflation

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targeting policy, setting that inflation between three and 6%. You

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can only achieve that if you lose the planned instrument, with high

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interest rates, to drive the inflation down. I think the

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preoccupation must be to set targets for employment, for poverty

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reduction, for inequality reductions. I do not agree that in

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the case of the public, which would be privatising everything, I think

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we should be building a developmental state which will use

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the instruments. Use the instruments by the apartheid government. You

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disagree with the president 's comment that the ANC best represents

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the interests of the working class. Let me put a point to you by a

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member of south Africa's workers and socialist party. He says our

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impression from COSATU workers, is disillusionment. Their

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disgruntlement is shifting to an active search for all eternity. Is

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this going to render COSATU irrelevant? They are going to look

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for the more radical answers. Those, who say, nationalise our

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resources. I have warned that. The leadership sadly finds comfort with

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the status. I am not part of a movement to challenge the

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fundamental foundations. Then, workers will start looking forward

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to relatives. If COSATU leaders defend what is happening, which is

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clearly wrong in the highs of the overwhelming members of its own

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unions, then it will find itself completely in no man's land. The

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founding secretary general of COSATU said in an article on the south

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Africa Sunday Times, on March the 23rd, that" like ghosts, they hang

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lifeless in COSATU bedrooms, for the first time in the history of

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COSATU, we have no one to turn to in our leadership". They have come to

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recognise in its last Congress that unless we address worrying

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organisational trends internally, unless we begin to address the

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social gap, that is developing between them and the leaders, and

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the members on the ground, you are going to have to content with things

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coming all over. Your days could be numbered? It depends on what we do

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about this. What are you doing? We are in a terrible situation. I come

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from the school of thought that says we have two be putting programmes

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together to address it. How can you? There is nothing wrong with that.

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But how can you do that? When you have been suspended since August

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2013 as Secretary general of COSATU? Because of an affair you had with a

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COSATU employee which violates rules. And there have also been

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questions about financial impropriety. You deny the

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allegations completely, and you are taking COSATU... You are selling

:18:34.:18:36.

them in the courts, and the cases going through. I do not want to go

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into the nitty`gritty, but there are two points: Would you be vindicated,

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and are due to busy involved in this infighting in COSATU to lead the

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workers? One of the main issues of discussions in south Africa today

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among trade unions is whether there should be a Congress. A federation

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that is a reliable friend of all the marginalised and oppressed people

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all over the world. A federation that is regarded to be holding the

:19:14.:19:17.

moral composts of south Africa today. A friend that speaks truth to

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power `` compass. How can you do that with infighting? And you are

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suspended? I think people were uncomfortable with the trade union

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movement that is truly independent, that is mobile. Around sound values

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of our people, we put people first. They said that the organisation is

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divided. It is weakened. You believe that you have been set up in a trap?

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And that has led to your suspension? The mistake I committed in having an

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affair was blown out of proportion. For political reasons. If that was

:20:01.:20:08.

people acting on the basis of a sound moral basis, people will have

:20:09.:20:15.

no issues whatsoever with the same things happening everywhere else.

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You think it was a trap? The fact that COSATU headquarters was sold

:20:20.:20:23.

for less than half market value, is this a trap for you again? Again,

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that is absolutely nonsense. It trap by who? It is wrong that one person

:20:30.:20:37.

alone is acting outside of the collective is the leadership, and

:20:38.:20:41.

can determine the price of anything. Who is setting the trap? Is it

:20:42.:20:45.

because you are seen as a critic of ANC, and the President? Is that what

:20:46.:20:51.

the reason is? When you speak to power, you make many friends but

:20:52.:20:56.

also a few enemies. When a political analyst at the electoral bill for

:20:57.:21:04.

democracy said last year that your suspension strengthens the

:21:05.:21:08.

President's faction in ANC, was he right? I would not put it that way,

:21:09.:21:15.

but surely those who find comfort in the leadership would say about the

:21:16.:21:18.

current status call of where the country is drifting too would be

:21:19.:21:24.

very happy with the applied federation, and they will not raise

:21:25.:21:28.

a single finger about the bigger standards that are unfolding in

:21:29.:21:32.

south Africa today. A respected political labour analyst, Terry

:21:33.:21:39.

Bell, says that the supposedly controlled shields of the workers

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were merely stepping stones for world and privilege for the few.

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These talks of the expense accounts of union bureaucrats. I have raise

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that issue. We raised it before, and we have said that we should be

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setting ourselves up to ensure that we are transparent. When you said at

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that last COSATU congress, you said that" I have access to luxuries that

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many in our constituency do not, workers feel that the unions and the

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leaders fail them by not prioritising their bread and butter

:22:23.:22:26.

issues" . Absolutely, if the union does not do anything, they had to

:22:27.:22:32.

speak about them and not us, they will not be hitting the problem. The

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problem in south Africa, partly, is that there is social distance. The

:22:38.:22:43.

reason why we ended up with these unions is that the workers could not

:22:44.:22:48.

identify with leaders, any more, because they seem preoccupied with

:22:49.:22:51.

some of the issues leading to political office, being a member of

:22:52.:22:58.

legislation, while they were feeling that the issues of their bread, and

:22:59.:23:03.

butter, were completely being sidelines. Briefly and finally, what

:23:04.:23:07.

is the future for you? Will you set up a new party? There have been

:23:08.:23:12.

rumours. No, I have two say this, I am committed to saying this, I am a

:23:13.:23:19.

loyal member of the ANC, but I know they have values of traditions,

:23:20.:23:29.

which are not compared to trade for anything for the position of General

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Secretary. That is the ANC that I know that liberated South Africa on

:23:35.:23:40.

the basis of its principal of our people first, selflessness, and our

:23:41.:23:46.

people first, and not asked first. That is the ANC that I am committed

:23:47.:23:50.

to serve as a member. Zwelinzima Vavi, thank you very much for coming

:23:51.:23:52.

on HARDtalk. Good morning, we may be in the early

:23:53.:24:25.

throes of spring, but temperatures have not dropped away too much in

:24:26.:24:28.

the night, and today starts in

:24:29.:24:29.

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