Tamara Rojo - Artistic Director/Lead Principal, English National Ballet HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. There is a new ballet under production about one of

the bloodiest conflicts in the 20th century. It is the idea of Tamara

Rojo. She grew up in Spain, made her dancing career in Britain and is now

Artistic Director and Lead Principal at the English National Ballet. This

performance at the Barbican is an attempt to do something different at

what is usually a conservative ballet. With some of the stars

arguing that ballet should be tough, and a new generation of dancers who

have gone through a demanding training in Japan and China

beginning to flourish, can Tamara Rojo triumph over tradition?

Tamara Rojo, welcome to the programme. Tell me about your

journey from a child Spain to becoming the Artistic Director and

Lead Principlal at the English Natonal Ballet. It has to do a lot

with luck. You have to be at the right place at the right time. In

Madrid, I did not know what a ballet performance looked like. They would

allow television to show ballet from a youth company and I decided that I

wanted to study with them. That was the beginning of my good luck, to

stumble into this amazing school. Then, when I was 19, I went to an

international ballet competition in Paris and from that I got my first

contract in Britain which was in Scotland, in Glasgow. When I was

doing Romeo and Juliet there the director of the English Natonal

Ballet saw me, and offered me a contract with the English Natonal

Ballet because he was about to create his own Romeo and Juliet.

Then I came to London and had three wonderful years and then moved to

the Ballet, were I was for 20 years and then I decided to go back to the

English Natonal Ballet. I took the directorship. This is a different

role to take on compared to your previous one. You are still dancing

as well. This production, lest we forget, the First World War that

scarred Europe is kind of everywhere at the moment. Was it just

topicality at the moment alone, or did you think it would be a good

subject for ballet for other reasons? It was very much to do with

what I have learned in my 17 years in Britain. It is about how

important this war is for the British psyche, how it is still

moving and disturbing in some ways, how many questions have been

unanswered. I was not just trying to do it because everybody else is

doing it. The fact that so many people are doing it is not a plus

really. I wish it was just us. It is such a big subject. We could look at

the politics of war but it is the emotional weight, the emotional

value of a war that is more difficult to convey. That is where

dance can really be at its best. We are incredible with emotions. We can

really convey the loss and be true sense of the personal drama. It is

sometimes forgotten, especially by a focus on the politics. What is the

cost for each individual? It is a story of a generation of men

perishing in the trenches. You have decided to increase the position of

women in ballet so people might find the subject matter rather a

difficult choice. World War I was very important for women, they took

the role of men in factories and they took over the agriculture and

all of the responsibilities and the jobs of men. A lot of what you will

see on the stage is about the change of the role of women. That was also

incredibly important. You have said in one interview that your message

to the audience is that I need you to see the choreographers of today.

There are four choreographers and they are all men. They are. I did

approach a couple of women, especially one for this project, but

she was expecting a baby so that was good news for her but bad news for

me. In this case, I also wanted to work with the men that I considered

to be the most important choreographers in Britain. I wanted

them all to be based here because I really wanted this angle of

approach. I wanted the British angle about the war. You said last summer

that there are some issues that you would like to see approached by

women on the stage. Very often we see relationships approach from a

male perspective. Like in pornography, it shifts were you look

at things and women and men have different sensibilities. Quite often

what you see in choreography in women is that the first thing they

discuss is the emotional context. What is the situation here? Who are

you in relationship to me emotionally? With men we tend to

focus on the language, their vocabulary and identity as

choreographers tends to come first. It is different. It is not better or

worse, but different. It would be good if we could see more often

other ways of working. Do you think that the lack of a female vision in

ballet and more obviously at the moment might be one of the factors

about why ballet schools are reporting plenty of boys wanting to

dance but they're struggling to find as many girls as they used to? It is

a strange thing. It also has to do with role models. Carlos Acosta had

a huge influence and Billy Elliot as well, both the movie and the

musical. This is a totally unlikely situation for a ballet star, a

mining town, and he becomes a dance star. Those models meant that little

boys were not embarrassed to say that they wanted to be a ballet

dancer and their perceived it as something that they were allowed to

dream about. Somehow, we have not had these kind of role models as

strongly in terms of female roles in ballet. I think that there are very

strong role models in the pop industry and in the fashion

industry, and girls tend to choose those jobs now. They want to be

singers and television personalities. Ballet does not have

its own Lady Gaga. We do not and it is a profession which is very about

much dedication, a profession where you cannot make it just of luck or

by saying something witty once in awhile. If what you want to pursue

celebrity fame and fortune, you will not find this through ballet. You'll

find something a lot more rewarding but it will also demand a lot more

from you. I think that maybe today we give a lot of value to celebrity

and wealth and that is where ballet cannot compete. If we went back to

more important values, about dedication and the amazing award

that comes from something you have fought for to gain, then ballet

wins. You talk about dedication. There has been a lot of debate about

the pressures that are on women dancers. About 6% of women in the

general population have eating disorders. According to a doctor who

works with dancers, it is three times that rate. Did you have to

struggle with it as a young dancer? Very much so. From a very early age,

as soon as I hit puberty, I was very much aware that these changes were

not welcome and that I had to try and control my body and make it stay

in a prepubescent shape. That was an incredible struggle for me. The

worst thing that happens ` at least it used to happen and I was young `

this was done with no tools or information. I am very hopeful that

it is not the case any more. It made me miserable. It took away so much

of the joy of dancing that it was not really worth it. I have seen

people lose the joy of dancing because of this pressure. This

fashion for ultra`thin ballerinas was very much something in the 1980s

and 1990s. This is not the case now. The schools are more aware of giving

nutritional advice and in the English Natonal Ballet we have

professionals to help those who have any problem. I have always made very

clear that it is not for me an issue that makes or breaks a ballerina.

I'm not interested, I just want people with talent. You talk about

professional advice and you're saying that you're trying to bring

that approach to the English Natonal Ballet. An expert employed by you

and other dance companies has said that in ballet there are problems

with eating disorders and people get scared and they say they do not want

it has been kept very quiet. Part of it has been kept very quiet. Part of

the reason for that fear is that they are afraid if they reveal

things in that kind of situation, they will somehow go back to the

people in charge and suddenly they will not get good roles any more. Is

that a real fear? It is a reasonable fear. I am hoping that it has a lot

to do with the culture of an organisation. I'm hoping that in the

English Natonal Ballet we have an open culture so that there is no

fear about that. They know that they can talk to these professionals

completely anonymously and that it will never get back to me or to the

sport psychologist. It is something that you need to give time for

dancers to realise that there is no consequence about having a problem,

whether it is drugs or alcohol, stage fear, food. You talk about

culture. It is quite an important point. We had a series of stories

such as the attack at the Bolshoi such as the attack at the Bolshoi

Ballet, acid being thrown in people's eyes, which exposed a

culture of fear, rivalry, and aggression. We had the criticism

from a ballerina at La Scala and the pressure she said that people were

under and experiencing anorexia. She was sacked but then there was a

backlash accusing people of a campaign against the dance world in

general. Is this a profession where people feel that they have to keep

things within themselves, that it is disloyal somehow to ballet to talk

about this? I am not sure. I am aware that very often when

ballerinas retire the focus is so much on what they had to sacrifice `

the pain and the blisters, the injuries, and it becomes so

horrendous that you question about why you did it in the first place.

We never spend any time talking about the joy and the huge

satisfaction that being a ballet dancer gives you. However, if there

are serious issues, then it is only right that the dancers should speak

up. Do you think that ballet dancers work too hard? It depends. Some

companies never have time to rehearse. The dancers get injured

all the time. Others plan it better. It is a question of, where do you

choose to work? You work six days a week until after nine o'clock. Maybe

that is a good example. That is true. I am a workaholic. I am doing

two jobs. I am doing something that I was very aware was going to happen

and is for a limited amount of time. That is interesting. As part of your

working day break off from the office even when not involved in a

production and you go and rehearse an exercise with the dancers. I do

class every day with the dancers. I have meetings and even if I have to

come back to the theatre, I come back to the theatre. I understand

that my work is very broad. But I think it works for us. I am so much

in touch with what they are going through. That is important when you

are changing an organisation. I am making some changes in terms of the

repertoire. I need to understand how they are feeling and how it is

translating into their bodies. How they are coping. Can I go up another

gear or do they have to stop there? Let them do just what they are doing

and wait to push them. You say you know it will only be for a certain

amount of time that you will be juggling two jobs. Have you met a

decision when you will retire? I have. Can you tell us? No. I do not

want to do a big farewell. I just want to allow other ballerinas in my

company to have the spotlight. Once I think they are in that place where

they do not need my name to sell tickets, I will move into the

office. We talked a bit about taking some of the pressure off dancers.

But some people think that maybe this generation is getting easier

than it should. One newspaper was told, kids are always distracted

nowadays and the new generation, the passion and commitment has

diminished. Things have to be easy and ballet

Should it be? It is not easy. He has a point on concentrating on one

thing and only one thing at a time. Today, not only the kids, but

because they have borne with technology, they are used to doing

so many things. Sometimes the people that joined the company have

difficulty concentrating on one task and finishing. That is true. But

that is something we will find everywhere. It is going to be more

difficult to achieve that level of perfection in one particular skill

if you are not able to dedicate the hours and interest. He mentioned the

repertoire, choreographers. This approach of bringing in

choreographers who have not got a ballet background. You said in one

interview that for you performing in this has been a sense of dancing and

then suddenly having to push my centre of gravity into my pelvis. Is

it that different? It is very different. His language is

contemporary. The centre of gravity is so much lower. The placement of

your whole body and a skeleton is so different. Everything is about

projecting. With them it is more intimate and about the inside. There

is a huge shift physically and technically. But it is interesting.

The fact that he comes from a classical tradition as well means

that in ways that are unexpected we have so much in common. That

approach to protectionism. One head is only one way. There is no two

ways about it. I was not expecting that level of detail. He certainly

has it. Is it ballet? I do not see the limitations. It is dance. And

that is what interests me. Ballet has always progressed when it has

absorbed other ways of dancing. The only reason why Paris Opera became

more interesting is that when they moved to Russia they absorbed the

traditional dancers. When they moved to Denmark, the absorbed. The fact

that ballet is able to absorb the dancers and refine it to the

absolute maximum of what you can do and enriches the art form. I do not

see the limitations. You were talking about coming in with new

traditions. Some of the contemporaries are frustrated by the

old schedules. I would like to retire the classical version of Swan

Lake so companies have more room for new work. I would not. I can

understand why he feels that we need to maybe balance more the level of

classical ballet and other repertoire. The one thing that I

keep remembering is that those classical ballet performances are

the first step into the art form for most people. 85% of the people who

come to see the Nutcracker is the first time they have come to see

ballet. That makes me think that what my job is that once they come

for the first time, is to be able to get them interested in coming again

to something different and then something else different. If I

retire those they would not come at all. That is why I am not confident

happy with the concept of retiring them. Also because there is still

Mozart, still the classic. They are still the main way that ballerinas

and ballet dancers can achieve those steps that make you become a dancer.

You are not worried that they crowd out the other potential of new work?

In a company like yours, it is not wealthy, it relies people on pain to

come and see shows. That almost forces you to keep people coming

again and again. It forces people, but it also allows me to spend money

on something interesting. Nutcracker funds the rest of the season. It is

give and take. I have to live with the fact that I would prefer not to

do 40 Nutcrackers, but 20. But the extra 20 allow me to do Lest We

Forget. One person said classical dancers always spend years with the

company. And artistic director imagined that long years of training

would allow them to tread their current narrow treadmill. That is

not the case anymore. All of the choreographers, that is not a narrow

treadmill. It is really wide. Let us not forget that it is the repetitive

number of shows is what gives me the opportunity to take chances with

younger dancers. In companies where you only have 12 Nutcracker

performances, you only see the principal dancers. When you have 40,

you will see the principles and be able to give opportunities to young

dancers. That means dancers that come from the school are very

capable to be a principal dancer rather than within a decade. ``

within four years. Believe me, it makes a huge amount of difference.

And you know from your own experience. I do. Thank you for

joining us on HARDtalk. . This year, we were just coming to

the end of the might on record. This time