Emmanuel Jal - musician and former child soldier HARDtalk


Emmanuel Jal - musician and former child soldier

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Now it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to this special HARDtalk

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with me, Zeinab Badawi, recorded in front of an audience

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coming to you

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from the BBC Radio Theatre as part of our Freedom Season.

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The acclaimed South Sudanese singer and political activist

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Emmanuel Jal was just a boy during the Sudanese civil war

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when he was captured and forced to work as a child soldier

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in the 1980s.

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He escaped and went on to see his people gain independence

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in a referendum three years ago.

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But now, South Sudan is once again in conflict

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as rival tribes descend into ethnic violence that has killed

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thousands since December and left nearly a million displaced

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and at risk of starvation.

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When will the people of South Sudan enjoy peace and freedom at last

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and is Emmanuel Jal himself free from the traumas

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of being a child soldier?

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Audience, please welcome Emmanuel Jal t oHARDtalk.

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Emmanuel Jal, Sudan as it was then at war for five decades,

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nearly 2 million people died from starvation or disease.

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You yourself in your young life really only knew conflict.

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I was born in violence so peace was robbed from my childhood.

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In the beginning.

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You were not only robbed from peace, you were robbed

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of your mother, who died in the conflict.

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All my aunties died during the war, my mum too.

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Also all my uncles as well, except for two.

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And that is what I saw what war did, it robs people's souls.

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You are interesting because your father is from the Nuer

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tribe and your mother was a Dinka.

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Tell us the circumstances of the death of your mother.

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I know it was a very sad occasion, you were about six or seven.

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What actually happened, there were several village raids

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so we were running from one place to another.

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Because my mother was pregnant, I thought maybe she got shot.

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Recently my grandmother told me she died of exhaustion,

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giving birth because she ran and that is how she died.

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And your father joined what was then the Sudan People's

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Liberation Army, fighting for independence from Sudan.

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You really didn't see him because he was just off fighting

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the whole time.

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He was off fighting and he was in charge of the whole

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area at the time when we left the town.

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He was the one who collected hundreds of kids that

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were sent to school.

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He gave me up because the villagers were going to war.

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That is how I was taken to Ethiopia.

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So your father allowed you to be recruited as a child soldier

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when you are only about seven or eight?

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So I do not know if he knew if we were going to be soldiers

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because it was made attractive that we were going to go to school

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and learn how fly planes and make guns.

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All the things that people go to school for.

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So you thought you were going to get an education.

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You followed thousands of other South Sudanese children.

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You went in the border of South Sudan and Ethiopia then.

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What happened to you at this school that you thought

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you were going to get an education, what happened?

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A lot of things.

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First, when we took off, we were put on a boat and the boat

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capsized and 250 young people were put in a small boat.

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Only 50 people survived.

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My dad did not allow me to stay so they collected hundreds of young

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people and we had to walk to Ethiopia.

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Arriving there, we actually went to school for a while.

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What was really disturbing is seeing six,

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seven years old burying their own dead.

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We were not strong people, we were starving.

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Diseases are attacking us.

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Then we got trained.

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And you said the commander at the school said, from now on,

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the gun was going to be your mother and father.

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Yes.

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That is what everyone is told, the gun is your father

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and your mother.

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Even your dad, if he come along, you can put a bullet in their head.

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We are taught about the importance of because that.

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And you felt in a way, that you had a family again?

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It is like a big family because, the thing is, I did not know

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what the war was all about.

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I had my reasons why I wanted to be trained.

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My desire was to kill as many Muslims and Arabs as possible

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because that is what I thought the war was.

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I did not know what the war was about.

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In your book, you talk about one raid on a village

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where there was an old woman and you just raised your stick

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and you said, I started hitting the old woman again and again

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until my arm ached.

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This was in a place in Ethiopia, we had just finished training.

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What happened was we used to go to the rivers and steal

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their goats, their chickens.

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We were trained and then what happens, these people don't

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know where their animals disappeared to.

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We would raid their places where they make their maize

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and steal their mangoes and bananas.

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Their way to fight back is they would put spears

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on the riverbanks and so what happens is when the kids come

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and jump in the river, just to swim and have

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fun, they would stick down there.

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We used to think it was crocodiles but when somebody, one of the kids

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survived came out and they found the spears down there,

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it created anger and that is when we invaded their village

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and burned it down.

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And you told that old woman to lie down or you would cut off her head?

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Then you started hitting her.

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When you look back at that period, how does that make you feel?

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The fact that you actually, not only fought but killed?

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But what happens, I was not alone.

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There were many of us.

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When you are in a group, anything can happen.

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You can scream.

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Things like this, it is hard sometimes to digest.

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It is sometimes disturbing for me.

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But do you feel that you became dehumanised by these actions?

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You talk about how you just wanted to kill as many Arabs

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and Northern Sudanese as you could and there was a man

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wearing the jalabiya, the white kaftan, and you just

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raised your machete and smashed into him.

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And you said with one of your fellow child soldiers,

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you just were laughing.

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Well, the guys were not wearing the jalabiya.

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This was on the battlefield.

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In a situation where the soldiers were still killing us.

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This was in Juba.

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Sometimes when you capture people like that, you feel...

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You want them to feel the pain.

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So you don't want to shoot them easily.

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You called what they wear traditionally, the jalabiya,

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a reference to the Northern Sudanese.

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It is not the dress.

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Jalaba is the name of the Arab.

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To explain to us, why do you not see them as human beings

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when you are on the battlefield, fighting?

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You see them as being just the enemy, the oppressor.

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Because of experience.

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One time I saw my mother beaten in front of me and got humiliated

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and then my uncle tried to stop and then he was beaten as well.

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That time as a kid, I jumped to bite one of the soldier's foot.

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And then, he pressed my neck and then I blacked out.

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And so then, remembering that and seeing my mother beaten in front

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of me and our food got taken by force and one of the soldiers

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saying, it is God's will.

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That these people are going to be slaves and they have started a rebel

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movement, they will never win.

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These were seeds that were planted in my head.

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That these were terrible people.

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I did not have a word to put in now, but now I could say I was bitter

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and had a hatred for that time.

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So that is what went on in your head when you

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were killing the enemy?

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All these thoughts would come cascading back?

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You use these thoughts to justify situations.

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You use them to make yourself brave.

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For example, when you are scared, you remember how your village

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was burning and your mum was screaming.

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And you also remember how my auntie was raped as a kid.

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You use that anger to hold you to stand so that

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you do not get afraid.

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Did you feel better?

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Did the pain subside once you felt you had carried out these vengeance

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attacks, for what had happened to your family?

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Only for five minutes and then after that,

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the ghosts follow you for a long time.

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Human life is not easy.

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Maybe those who are used to it.

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If it is your first time, it is different when you have got

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somebody in cold blood.

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You are then one of the estimates, today there are still something

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like 250,000 to 300,000 child soldiers,

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somewhere in the world.

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You are now in your mid-30s.

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Do you still feel haunted by what happened to you when you

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were a child soldier?

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At the moment, I was very bitter so I managed to forgive myself

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and also forgive those who have harmed me and opened my mind.

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I came to the world and realised what was killing us was not Muslims

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and Arabs, it was a bigger than what I thought.

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I realised it is economical.

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And mostly activated by political situations.

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In that process, I had to let go.

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That is when my healing began.

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You managed to escape and you were 11 when you managed

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to fall into the hands of Emma McCune who was a young

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British woman, married to Riek Machar, from the same tribe

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as you, the Nuer, the vice president who has gone on the run

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in this recent conflict.

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Being with Emma McCune, she tragically died in a car

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accident in Nairobi soon after, how far was that as part

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of the healing process?

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Emma rescued over 150 child soldiers.

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I happen to be one of those.

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She smuggled me into Kenya and put me in school.

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I did not know if she even knew that I was related to Riek.

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That was her passion, helping a child.

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My thoughts, even when I was getting rescued, my reaction was different.

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I did not want to leave my gun, I wanted to come back to war.

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I am going to this white woman's country, I thought I will learn how

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to steal a plane and then come back to war.

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I became a different soldier.

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So, now we come to what is going on now.

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You say that you are related to Riek Machar, but you're not

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related,

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you are from the same part of South Sudan as he is.

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So three years ago, South Sudan votes for independence,

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it gets it and now look at it.

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In the midst of another conflict.

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10,000 killed since December, maybe more.

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Do you think everybody knows what is going on now

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in your country?

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Not everybody knows because it depends on who is putting

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the message out.

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The government has their own propaganda, speaking out.

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The people in the oppositions have their way of putting out

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but as I can put a perspective on what actually happened

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was a political situation.

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One party, party members asking the President

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to democratise our party.

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We have to make it accountable.

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We have to make things transparent and transform our country

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to be democratic.

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That is how the battle began.

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As you say, President Salva Kiir won the election and we are talking

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about President Salva Kiir from the Dinka tribe and Riek Machar

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broke away from the government and is now fighting his former allies.

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You have very clearly blamed Salva Kiir for this.

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You said on your Facebook in December last year,

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President Salva Kiir wants to pocket our freedom.

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I am not going to keep quiet.

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Yes, I actually said that.

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Because what is peace?

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Peace is when there is food on the table for children.

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When they have school, shelter, medical.

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It is when conflicts are managed in a mature manner

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and violence is prevented.

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The situation that happened, the political situation,

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it should not come and kill people.

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It should have been sorted in a political way.

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Now what is happening is that the people in jail

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are the founding fathers.

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You are talking about those who are put in jail early last year

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because Salva Kirr thought they were plotting against him.

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It is not tribal.

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It is used to cover up and get support.

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This is not a tribal war.

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It is a battle between one party not wanting to be democratic.

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The President wanting to stay in power.

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You say it is not tribal, but many say it is.

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A governor in the north-east part of South Sudan says that we see this

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as a tribal fight.

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If you look at it, you have the whole government,

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all the resources used to fight one tribe, bringing the Ugandans

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and the Congolese.

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But it is political.

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Who are the people in jail?

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The reason why they are fighting is because when the incident

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happened they killed civilians.

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The family members from the villages were angry at the government.

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But you are very much pointing the finger of blame at Salva Kirr.

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The UN Assistant Secretary General for human rights has said in January

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that we have received reports of mass killings,

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sexual violence, recruiting of child soldiers from both sides.

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The reason I point at the President, because when you are at the head

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you enjoy everything.

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Riek Machar was the vice president.

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He was running for his life.

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None of them picked up arms until they were forced.

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Civilians should not be targeted.

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Two of my brothers got killed.

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Some of my family members, I do not know where they are.

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They are civilians.

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What happens now could have been solved easily.

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You are influential.

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You have a high international profile.

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When you put the message on Facebook in December,

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it gets a negative response from this South Sudanese man.

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He says that you send out mixed messages.

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Please stay out of politics.

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Another one said, you are very disappointing, you should be a man

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of all people and not taking sides.

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My side is justice, equality and freedom for all.

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My side is justice, equality and freedom for all.

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That is the side I take.

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When I take that and say the truth, people who feel that the way

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of getting their bread is threatened, they fight back.

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I only fight for justice and equality.

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Riek Machar's fight is different.

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I cannot say, I am on your side, he is a politician.

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What if he gets power and starts doing it the same?

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I am against what Salva Kirr is doing, not him.

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I was beaten by police.

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You are talking about 2012.

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You are beaten by police because they knew that

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you were Nuer.

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Why do they have to target my family?

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What does my family have to do with this?

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5 million people do not have food.

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1 million people are displaced.

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Thousands of people have died.

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They need assistance.

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We have refugees in the camps who do not have proper assistance.

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The head of the United Nations Mission in South Africa has been

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sounding the alarm bells.

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He says that the clock is ticking.

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Do you think that the international community should be doing more?

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An appeal has been put out for $1.3 billion in help for South Sudan.

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Only 25% has been achieved.

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The international community can do a lot by pressuring both sides

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and making them accountable.

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We do not need to allow leaders to get away with murder.

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It should be referred to the ICC.

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They should be held accountable.

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Every person that has died does not have to die.

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I feel ashamed by being party to this.

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It is one party bringing the entire country to suffering.

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What about African solutions for African problems?

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As you mention, we have Ugandan forces supporting Salva Kirr.

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The East African community group is brokering the peace talks.

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Shouldn't it be better than going off to the ICC?

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Uganda saw two brothers fighting and picked one brother.

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That is not the way forward.

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That is not an African solution.

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That is an economical solution.

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Everybody is after their interests.

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The only thing I see that is better is the United Nations peacekeeping

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force.

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It should be strengthened and allowed to move freely

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so that the civilians can be protected.

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What about America?

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Very close to South Sudan, helped it to independence,

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provides it with $300 million of aid every year.

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There are people like Congressman Chris Smith

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of New Jersey who is urging Barack Obama to pick up the phone

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to Salva Kirr and say, look, this has got to stop.

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Could Obama be doing more?

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He could.

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When there is peace, a lot of people want to make money.

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People are making millions.

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Civilians are dying.

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Land is getting sold cheap.

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Deals are being signed.

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It is really difficult.

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We need a higher conscious awakening.

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We need to give people the peace they are looking for.

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It is tragic.

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Only 10 million people, and yet the country is still underdeveloped.

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Only 30% of the population can read or write.

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People do not have jobs.

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And suffering continues.

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I am very optimistic that things are going to change.

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South Sudan is going to pick it up.

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At the moment, things are changing slowly.

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The war is not tribal.

0:22:320:22:34

People in South Sudan are saving each other.

0:22:340:22:38

If you go now to any village, if there is no army,

0:22:380:22:42

nobody would be touched.

0:22:420:22:49

There is a lot of evidence of killing at communal levels

0:22:490:22:53

on the basis of ethnicity.

0:22:530:22:59

You have a charity that means "strength" in Arabic,

0:22:590:23:03

scholarships for children and trying to make sure

0:23:030:23:05

that they have an education that you feel that you never had.

0:23:050:23:12

Why are you doing that?

0:23:120:23:19

I was given a chance to go to school, education opens your mind

0:23:190:23:25

and makes you understand things differently.

0:23:250:23:30

When I was educated I was able to equip myself and see the world

0:23:300:23:33

in a different way.

0:23:330:23:35

Otherwise I would have been locked in my own world.

0:23:350:23:38

Because of education I am able to open my ears.

0:23:380:23:41

My ears are open.

0:23:410:23:45

I read and I get to learn.

0:23:450:23:49

Thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

0:23:490:23:57

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