Romario and Luis Fernandes HARDtalk

since she died. It's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. In a couple of months time, the World Cup will kick

off in Brazil. It will be the culmination of years of preparation

and millions of dollars of investment. In arenas like this one,

the brand`new national stadium in Brasilia. In this country, they love

their football and they love to party, so there is a huge sense of

anticipation. But there's another feeling in the air dash trepidation.

Because some of the World Cup steadier are not yet ready.

Allegations of corruption are swirling around and there is a fear

that this World Cup might not be remembered for the goals scored on

the pitch but for the protests off it.

My guest today is one of Brazil's in during football heroes. Known

universally as Romario. This is probably the most beautiful spot in

all of Brazil. He was a World Cup winner in 1994,

scorer of 1000 rolls, a football in rebel with a millionaire lifestyle,

who is now an outspoken socialist MP. It's funny because it's a very

calm, very clean city, a very dirty politics.

You might think he would be one of the World Cup's most enthusiastic

actors. In fact, he is one of its harshest critics. Why? Romario,

welcome to HARDtalk. The World Cup is little more than two months away

and is one of Brazil's greatest footballing stars we might expect

you to be feeling excited. `` as one of. Are you feeling excited?

And yet you have been one of the leading voices, very critical of the

way the organisation of the World Cup has gone. How are you feeling

about that organisation write`down? `` right now?

Kit looks as though the World Cup will cost billions of dollars. `` it

looks. Many of the stadiums that have been built have cost hundreds

of millions of dollars and some of it will get barely used after the

World Cup has finished. If you have been in charge of organising this

tournament, how would you do it? You said not so long ago that when

you see in this country schools where kids get no lunch, classrooms

don't have air`conditioning and where hospitals are short of beds,

if we had spent 30% less on the World Cup we would have money for

things that really matter. It sounds like you are very angry with the

decisions made by the football authorities and the central

government? Who is getting rich off this World

Cup? You seem to have declared war on a

number of different targets. You called the Brazilian football bosses

cancer, you accused the president of fever Sepp Blatter of being a thief,

the director`general of FIFA you called a blackmailer. Is that the

right kind of language to be using when Brazil is under the spotlight

across the world? But in saying the things you have

said in such an outspoken way, you have fallen out with quite a few of

Brazil's registered footballers. For example, Pele says Brazil's own

people are in danger of spoiling this World Cup party. The bull

should understand that football brings in money and benefits to the

people of our country. `` people. Ronaldo, a great striker like

yourself, says new stadiums have to be built as part of the World Cup

aberration. `` preparation. You say only two voices but after all Pele

is Brazil's greatest footballer. When you called him an imbecile, it

seemed to show a certain lack of respect.

Let's talk about the protests. In the last year we've seen serious

street protest in Brazil and there is much talk of more protests being

targeted at the World Cup itself. Let me be clear with you. Do you

believe people should be out on the streets, protesting and

demonstrating at the World Cup? Is there not a danger that you are

staring things up, by saying people have the right and should protest,

using the World Cup as a focus for their anger? You at creating a

situation which could lead to violence, could lead to real danger.

`` you are creating. You have been very critical during

this interview of the football authorities in Brazil and FIFA. Do

you see anything positive coming out of the World Cup for Brazil?

In Rio, the legendary and now completely revamped Marek Khanna

Stadium, where the World Cup final will be held, is already staging

Brazilian clubfoot all. The organisers have been stunned by

Romario's criticism. I've come to meet the deputy sports minister who

is responsible for the World Cup, Luis Fernandes. Does he see Brazil

hosting the tournament as a blessing or a curse?

Luis Fernandez, welcome to a HARDtalk. Thank you very much. Do

you feel you have the most high`pressure job in the zeal? It is

a lot of pressure but I am very proud of the job that I have because

I think we will deliver a great World Cup. That is very positive, at

your boss said, it is true, everything could have been done

better. In life, everything can be done better. We have to see that it

will be a fantastic cup. Brazil is the nation of football. We are going

to have a huge party here. We hope that will culminate with our winning

the World Cup. Let's be honest, what could have been done better? Now

that you look at the use of preparation with just a couple of

months let, what did you get wrong? I think we should have been part of

the organising committee earlier. We were brought into the local

organising committee only to use ago. You as the government?

Exactly. Initially, it was private and I don't think that is the best

arrangement for a World Cup because you have to have public authorities

involved because of what of the work depends on involvement of the

authorities. When you talk about a lot of work, the truth is that some

important work still needs doing. There are three stadiums which are

not yet completed. There are questions about whether at least one

of them will be completed on time. We are pretty sure that all will be

completed on time. And with the quality needed to host World Cup

games. One of the stadiums is practically ready, we are just

waiting for the President agenda to ignore credit. It and then we will

have till the end of April. We have got to talk money because it is

clear this is a very expensive projects for Brazil. The total of

expenditure is expected to be maybe $13 billion. On the stadia

themselves, 3 billion or more. Is that value for money? Yarmouk first

of all, thank you for your question because you have to separate

investment that R4 locations of the World Cup. The other investments

associated which are not World Cup investments, we have invested in

airports, public transport, Port modernisation, Telecom indications

infrastructure which is all infrastructure that the country

needed to promote its development and which would have to be done

independent of the World Cup. I understand your point but I

carefully said at least 3 billion order the stadia themselves. Some of

them built in cities where the local teams attract just a couple of,000

supporters for their average games. Romario, one of the most influential

players in Brazil says it is a criminal waste of money. Romario is

my idol but I do not agree with him on that respect. First of all,

besides the fact, if we break that down Pirtek Stadium, it is on the

average a cost of stadiums for example, what you spent in Wembley

or what is being spent for the Euro cup. The point about Wembley is it

is well used throughout the year, filled with 80,000 spectators. Some

of the stadiums will be white elephant which will local football

teams will not be able to fill, even close. I do not agree with that

assessment. It is completely wrong. The stadium in Brasilia had in the

second semester of 2013, after the Confederation cup, twice as much

public in its various events than the entire public United in the

years before the cup. All of the stadiums are designed as

multipurpose arenas. They host not only football games but they host

shows, conference centres, convention centres and have been

effective. It is a concrete example. When Romario says there is something

rotten, something corrupt at the heart of this World Cup operation in

Brazil, he says, frankly, people have been taking a cut, construction

companies have done well. The people of Rosell who need hospitals and

schools are bitterly disappointed. What do you say? Ella TRANSLATION:

That is a false contradiction because there is no contradiction

between investing in stadiums, in airport modernisation and health and

education. Over the preparation period, I will give you a figure. We

have invested 400 and 50 billion in education and 320 billion in health.

The total amount of the stadiums is a pillion. There is no conflict

between investing in the stadiums, growing investment in health and

education. You are full of figures. How much money has been lost to kick

back deals and corruption? We have a rigourous control system in place in

Brazil. We have it systems at the federal, state and city level. They

ordered very closely every single Euro that is invested in these

stadiums. How much? How much has been lost to corruption and

kickbacks? I do not think anything has been lost to corruption. And if

it is, if something is discovered it will be effectively punished and

reversed. Why do you think, according to the opinion polls I

have read in the resilient press, that the support for the World Cup

has dipped from 80% just a year or so ago to 50% now. Why is that

happening? Ella TRANSLATION: In any major sporting event, you face that

in the Olympics in London. You have a curve with very initial strong

support that it is down and it starts to recover when the event

starts to happen. That happened in London in 2012. We are sure that

will happen and is starting to happen now in Brazil. We are a

country passionate for football in interest football will motivate and

engage our population in support of the World Cup. You are being very

positive. What many people in Rozelle, maybe it yourself

privately, are concerned about is the real possibility of protests,

mass demonstrations targeting the World Cup. Romario says he is

absolutely supportive of people who want to use the World Cup to make

social protest. Argue? We are a democratic country and recognise the

right to freedom of expression. You are happy to see Brazilians marching

on some of the stadia, making a big noise, of political protest at the

time of the World Cup? I will repeat. We are a democratic country

and recognise everyone's rights to freedom of expression including

demonstrations. We lived under a dictatorship and the generation in

government today was brought up in resistant to the dictatorship,

fighting for freedom. We recognise that freedom. What we cannot accept

as a state are acts of violence, riots, vandalism because protesters

themselves do not support that type of action. We started out by talking

about pressure. We have discussed the feelings of the Brazilian

public, may be somewhat mixed at the tournament approaches. You ever

think to yourself that maybe, boosting the World Cup here has

become more of a curse than a blessing? Ella TRANSLATION: I think

it is a historic opportunity for Brazil. We are in a different Jewish

and the England with the Olympic Games. England is a rich country. It

set up infrastructure which sustained its development. And that

were used during the Olympic Games at the YouTube transport systems. I

take your point. Maybe we are discovering that Brazil is not

ready. We will prove the world we are ready and proved that developing

countries should host major event because they have a growing voice in

the world. If you see what is happening in the world, who is

growing more, what are the new political polls saying. Developing

countries have to be brought into the picture. So making major will

global sporting events rich man's parties is not a good alternative.

Luis Fernandez I thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.

Thank you. It was a wet start to the week for

many parts of the UK but things are