Izabella Teixeira - Minister of the Environment, Brazil HARDtalk

he fired through the bathroom door believing she was an intruder.

Welcome to a special edition of hard talks from Brazil with me, Stephen

Sackur. Today I have come to the very edge of Rio `` HARDtalk. If you

look beyond the vast buildings here you see a remnant of what was once

one of Brazil's greatest natural assets, the Atlantic Forest, which

once covered 15% of this country's landmass, but most of it has now

disappeared as a result of human settlement, industrialisation and

commercial agriculture, all of which has transformed Brazil. These small

pockets of woodland are all that's left of the Atlantic Forest. UNESCO

designated it a world biosphere reserve to be protected and

carefully managed. Campaigners for the protection of Brazil's Forest

and the indigenous life within them have been fighting a losing battle

for decades. Of the odds are stacked against them because economic and

political power in this country lies firmly in the hands of people whose

focus is on exploitation, not conservation. I was joined on my

hike by Professor Fernando Fernandez, a biologist at the

federal university of Rio and he has been studying the long`term effects

of deforestation. What has happened to the Atlantic Forest? The Atlantic

Forest was among the resident post where most of the European people

settled. If had the best agricultural land, the most fertile

land, so most of the population settled here. Then there was a lot

of deforestation and so on. It was destroyed massively. Now the part

that is most destroyed is not in the east where the settlement was before

in the beginning of the settlement, the north`east which produced a lot.

And the Forest has completely gone? The estate is nearly completely

gone. The south of Baihia is completely gone. Here, a short walk

literally from the city of Rio, it is a beautiful place, it is a

forest, but it isn't the forest that it used to be. We can hear a bird

but there's very little wildlife here. Yes. Many animals that were

here are not here any more. Like Jaguars and others. They are found

in the forest in very few places nowadays. The ecosystem has changed?

It has changed completely. And this is for two reasons. One is the

fragmentation of the forest, what is left the remnants get more isolated

from each other as the landscapes develop through agriculture and so

on. And the other is hunting. Hunting has been very common in the

past, it is still very common, it is illegal, of course, but there is

still lots of hunting. You have in the fragments this synergy between

two factors, small populations, small isolated populations, and

hunting pressure. And what you get is a very impoverished forest, an

empty Forest. Since European colonisation there's been constant

battle in Brazil between the desire to settle, develop, industrialise,

urbanised, and on the other hand the desire to protect this amazing,

unique natural environment. Do you think Brazil now has the balance

right between those two forces? No, I don't think so. In Brazil the

pressure to develop is still very big. Of course this is quite

understandable because we have pressing social and economic needs

in Brazil. So Brazil wants very much to develop, it looks to develop. But

we also want a good standard of living. And many social problems to

solve. In the future it is important to preserve natural resources for

everything, industry, agriculture, enjoyment, science and technology,

for many things, quality of life. The country that preserves natural

resources will be in a much better situation. If we don't take good

care of our resources now I think we will have very little to offer in

the future. The question is, do you see the political will in Brasilia,

in the Brazilian government, to prevent that happening? I don't

think there is the necessary amount of political will. I think of course

Brazil is a very big country with a very complicated political situation

and there are some very fierce people in private organisations

fighting for the environment. I think the dominant way of seeing

things is that the environment is a small priority compared to the

economic needs and the social needs. I think people don't realise that,

there is a large pressure to develop quickly. So the environment is

always a lower priority, it is always the thing that lags behind.

Brasilia... Brazil's extraordinary Modernist capital is the place to

come to test the will of the government here to protect this

country's unique biodiversity. Are the Brazilian leaders prepared to do

whatever it takes to ensure the Amazon rainforest does not go the

same way as the Atlantic forest. My guest today is Brazil's Environment

Minister, Izabella Teixeira. Is the rainforest safe in her hands?

Izabella Teixeira, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much.

Brazil has this unique global role, it is the custodian of the world's

greatest natural defence against climate change, the rainforest, the

Amazon rainforest, do you resent the pressure that comes with that role?

Lets see. I think first we have pressure from Brazilian society, not

only from the world. What we have today in Brazilian society,

everybody understands that we need to protect the Amazon forest. We

need to know what the Amazon forest means. You have the Amazon Bion,

that is not only in Brazil, it goes through five countries as well. But

the bulk of it is in Brazil. About 60% is in Brazil, OK? And the Amazon

represents around 49% of the total of the Territorian of Brazil. It's

interesting to note about this, about the challenges. It's huge,

absolutely huge `` territory of. Therefore it is a burden, and

frankly it seems your government finds it impossible to control, to

thoroughly controlled development within. That is the opposite today.

What we are doing in Brazil, we have changed... In 2004, it's important

to understand the historical data, in 2004 you had the deforestation

rate in the Amazon in Brazil at around 27,000 square kilometres. Per

year? Was being lost from the rainforest? In 2004. I understand

that and I know you're going to tell me you've improved the figures

dramatically and in recent years it's gone down to 4000 or 5000

square kilometres. But this is the big but. In the last year the

results have not been so good at all. What we saw between 2012 and

2013 was a very alarming rise in deforestation. I don't agree there

is a very alarming data. Excuse me, for a minister who said, " My goal

is to eliminate the pro` station... " the fact is you have failed. I

have not failed `` eliminate deforestation. You have the

Brazilian national plan to eliminate illegal deforestation, our goal is

to achieve it in 2020. OK, we have a process that we are aiming to reduce

illegal deforestation. By 2020? Yes. If that is your desire and that is

your commitment, why is it that just two years ago you relaxed the

so`called forest code which actually gave a new freedom to loggers to cut

down trees, and actually offered an amnesty to illegal loggers,

something which actually most Brazilians regarded as completely

unreasonable. Lets see. First of all, I didn't relax. Second it's not

true that the new forest code allows illegal logging, it is the opposite.

What message does it send when you offer an amnesty to illegal

loggers... Let's see, we have a law in Brazil, you have private land,

it's probably the same in your country, if your private land is in

the Amazon region you need to preserve 80% of this property

without managers. What do you think about this? You call this a legal

reserve. It was maintained. You have permanent areas to protect along the

rivers. You maintain this. All the requirements that the former forest

code established in the past to protect biodiversity and protect the

areas that are so important for the conservation. You said at the

beginning of the interview that you are watched very closely within

Brazil by the people, the NGOs, but Greenpeace, Paolo, one of the

leaders of Greenpeace in Brazil, said the government should not be

surprised by the scandalous increase in deforestation last year. Hay said

they shouldn't be surprised because their own actions caused it `` he.

Let's see, first of all the government didn't cause it. He was

very disappointed in you. He's not. It shows you have... It is the same

increase and the same rate you have in 2007/2008. If you compare the

data, 2000 and 72 2008, you have the same percentage increasing ``

2007/. What are the costs? At the rate today you are considering the

legal activities and the need to separate this. I invited the states

to identify the cause in a meeting. The states are responsible to

analyse the illegal deforestation in the Amazon reason. I need to

mobilise and co`ordinate all of them to understand what are the costs but

it is important to separate the economic divisions versus forest

code. You talk about the economic dynamics in the region, you mean the

fact new highways are being built into the Amazon region, which

encourages more economic development, the government is still

pushing Brazil and an agricultural superpower, all of these are

pressures `` as an. Let's make it clear. You have legal authorisation

to remove natural vegetation, not only forest. The Amazon is not only

tropical forest, you have all vegetarian pipes. You can remove

this legally. `` types. This is different when you have

environmental crime and illegal deforestation. Do you not accept,

and this is a fundamental question for the Brazilian government, do you

not accept the perception inside Brazil and outside Brazil that the

political leadership, particularly in Congress in this country, is

heavily influenced by the logging interest, by the commercial farming

industry, and by the extractive industries. And all of those groups

are very keen to get their hands on more territory inside the Amazon.

Let's see, first of all it is important to understand your

country's a democracy. You have a little force that want to spread

their interests and this is a natural part of democracy. ``

political forces. This is democracy. We need to face the problems, we are

a developing country, we need to face the problems and put

environmental agenda in the middle of the interests of developing

Brazil and to show that it is really important to protect the

environment. Those are very powerful words. What about actions? What

about defending environmentalists when they face real threats of

intimidation and violence? They are making a stand. You have lost in

Brazil hundreds of environmentalists who have been killed. We have social

and environmental complex. Why is the government allowing still in the

last two years some of your most prominent defenders of the

rainforest and indeed the Atlantic Forest to be murdered? What did the

government do about it? The government is working to try to

protect them. We are trying to avoid the conflict. I have been checking

the record. Most of these murders, and more than 360 Brazilian

environmentalists have been murdered in the last decade, most of these

crimes never produce a conviction. It is important to understand that

they have been many Brazilian governments to protect the people

that surfactant the forests. They're not being protected, there being

murdered. Surely you should be going after the people who are issuing

these things. Are you sure about this? Were the arrests? During the

deforestation, to Brazil we have around 4000 lawsuits against these

people. You have a lot of operations with Federal police in Brazil to put

and arrest these people. Can you sit here and say that environment of

activists fighting to preserve the rainforest in Brazil can feel truly

safe? If you consider all of the public thoughts, they can be safe.

What the minister of environment can do, we are doing. Would you can do

is a Federal government, we are doing. We are working hard to

protect not only the environment but Brazilian that wants to protect the

environment. Minister, let me ask you about Brazil's environmental

challenge in a different way. Let's think about the economic costs of

conservation, of doing what the international community want you to

do, particularly concerning the rainforests. Your former president

said this in a HARDtalk interview, I do not want any gringo asking us to

allow animus on resident to die of hunger under a tree. We want to

preserve the trees but the rich nations will have to pay the price

of this preservation. Is that still the strategy? That the rich world

must pay you to do the right thing by the rainforest. You have to

consider this in a different context. At the national level in

Brazil today we have huge public policies to eradicate poverty and to

promote debate and to propose new ways for developments to work. How

to predict production and the forests. I am getting is an element

of blackmail. Was listening to the rich world that unless you give us

and billions of dollars we will eventually cut down all of the

trees. No, it is not true. The law in Brazil allows us to use the

territory but that you need to protect the forests. You have to

maintain the forests to use your property, your private property.

This is the precondition of the forest code. You are not relying on

the support of Western nations any more? I have a second part. What you

expect from the rich world? This is part of the climate negotiations.

We'll talk later about a deal. Will have a responsibility and we have to

understand what it for developing countries. We expect that the

historical responsibilities acknowledged and how we can have a

global agreement on climate change that considers the data and to

understand what of the new economic measures that must adopt to protect

the forest and to promote development in our country. I am

today, this society pays for it. It is not your society that pays for

it. This is very important because we have the Amazon on Front, and in

their case you do not have a donation from the United Kingdom.

Just an example. You are doing this, paying for this in a voluntary

commitment, not a mandatory commitment. We are a developing

country and we are doing this because we believe that we need to

do this. When you have the international negotiations on

climate change, of course developing countries like Brazil will be part

of it in a strategic way to voluntarily reduce our emissions.

How can we have a balanced approach economically to manage this

considering the future? You personally are very involved in

international negotiations to try, over the next year, to reach a new

binding international treaty. A treaty on controlling emissions. The

world wants to know whether Brazil is prepared to sign up to binding

targets and cuts. If you have a global agreement with all of the

countries on board, why not? If you want a global agreement on climate

change, it is important that we can have the United States, not just

China but also India. India will play a strategic role for any

generation after 2020. If you are not able to manage all of the

political engagement from all the countries, including developing

countries, emerging economies, and understand what the challenges offer

economic growth and job generation. If you are not able to manage this,

it is impossible for a country like Brazil to do its part. We are

working hard on it without understanding what the consequences

after the world. Is it enough? No. But this we need the engagement

other countries and we believe that we can do this. You can do this, you

say. You have been involved in this process for many years. The idea is

to get the new post` Kyoto international treaty in Paris next

year, yes or no? Do you believe it will happen? I am working hard to do

this. You need a pragmatic approach considering that we have positions

from countries that do not want to pay at the same pace that the

negotiations require. We have a big challenge for the leaders, the

political leaders, not only for the governments but for the society as

well. I am working hard to do this. I can assure everyone that I'm very

hard. I hope that I can influence it, this year and the next. We have

two and there but Izabella Teixeira thank you for being on HARDtalk.

Most of us had a lovely day on Tuesday with a good deal of

sunshine. It looks pretty quiet across the United Kingdom over the

next few days. A lot of dry and bright weather to be found. It is

not dry