Jean Paul Gaultier -French Fashion Designer HARDtalk

It's just gone 4:30am,

which means it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

My guest today is the French

couture fashion designer,

Jean Paul Gaultier, who is known

as the enfant terrible

of the fashion world

for his witty and daring designs.

Now an exhibition of his best-known

works is opening here

at the Barbican in London.

But how far do his designs

like the cone-shaped bra and corset

dresses help contribute to

the sexual objectification of women?

Jean Paul Gaultier,

welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you.

What do you think of the label,

the 'enfant terrible of the fashion

world', about you, now

you are in your early 60s?

I should say that now you can't say

that, I am the ex-enfant terrible.

I am now the old man

terrible of French fashion!

Still, a little.

You don't mind it.

You were never actually

formally trained in design.

You sent some pictures...

Some sketches.

Exactly.

I didn't go to school.

To Cardin, on the day

I was 18 years old.

I sent the pictures on the day

of my 18 years old.

Pierre Cardin called my mother

and said, "I want to see him."

When I came back she said,

"You have to go to see Cardin."

I asked her to come with me

because I was so frightened

to go and meet him.

He said, "How many days can

you work?" I was still

finishing my studies.

I said three afternoons.

Say, OK, work.

An amazing break.

Laurent didn't get back to you.

You stayed for a short time

with Pierre Cardin and then

you joined Jacques Esterel.

A small couture house,

very different from Pierre Cardin.

This was all in the 1970s.

After, I went to Jean Patou,

a bigger, old house.

It was only the perfumes doing

things, but the collection...

Even representing a show,

but it was not selling.

There was only one customer.

We had to make special

sketches for her.

But a very famous name.

You said you were almost

chameleon-like when you were there,

trying to second-guess what kind

of designs they wanted.

When did you find your own style?

I appreciated the chance

to be an assistant,

because for Cardin,

it was easy because he has

a strong style.

So I have to work to his style.

It was the beginning of the '70s...

He was presenting his shows.

He was doing furniture.

He even asked me to do furniture,

which I never expected to sketch.

Anyway, after I left there...

After I came back to come again

working for Pierre Cardin,

I started my own collection in 1976.

Little by little,

I find what is my style.

I should say my obsession,

more than anything.

You quickly became known

for an edgy, street kind of fashion,

punk, that kind of thing.

Are you comfortable with being known

as the person who has these kinds

of designs as their signature?

Definitely, I am proud of it.

I must say that I have been

inspired more by the street,

the streets of London,

than by the jet set.

In the mid-'70s, the jet set

was wearing very boring clothes

which were not totally inspiring.

For me, I was preparing to go

to the street and see some people

who are dressing

in a more modern way.

Almost punk-like.

I was influenced by punk, of course.

It was something absolutely fabulous

and very, like, rebellious.

I was a little let's say rebellious

against French fashion.

It was very "this is chic,

this is not chic." There was no

sense of humour.

In London it was

completely the opposite.

Even not street people,

they were more...

With eccentricity, and more

like speaking through their clothes.

One thing you really

have become famous for,

and you started this

design on your teddy bear,

which features in this

exhibition, is the cone bra,

the very pointed bra.

A long time before

I did it for Madonna.

You did that for the Blonde Ambition

tour of Madonna in 1990.

The pointed bra, the corset,

the bodice - it is really...

You pioneered underwear

as outerwear.

A profile of you in the New Yorker

at the time said you unleashed a lot

of debate about whether this

was empowering or enslaving women.

Which was it for you?

For me it was empowering,

because I come from a generation

after the women's lib,

which means a woman,

they burn their bra.

OK, I think it's good,

because always me, I have in mind

the values that women

are stronger than men.

For me, it is more clever.

Do you think a lot of people

might have said, look,

the corset, it's very restrictive,

it is redolent of a past era?

Definitely it is.

So why bring it back?

The big difference is I proposed

the woman to choose if they want

to wear it themselves.

Not because they are obliged,

but because they like it.

But it's uncomfortable.

Some people do a lot of things

that are uncomfortable.

Would you wear a corset like that?

Definitely.

I should now, but not

especially at that time!

For example, I bleached my

hair during 20 years.

I have no more hair

almost because of that.

I suffered to have the blonde hair.

I appreciate that you say that

you see women as the stronger sex

and so on, but nevertheless,

you said once you saw a woman

wearing lacy bra under

a Chanel jacket and that's

all she was wearing.

Do you not think that might

contribute to the sexual

objectification of women?

Yes, apparently, but it's not

at all in the outfit

because the women are

changing around me.

I am a reflection

of what was changing.

It must be symbolised by Madonna,

which was a very strong woman.

Madonna shows it doesn't exist.

But she is a big superstar.

What if a young woman wears

the underwear as outerwear?

It might encourage predatory

male sexual attention.

First, when they wear the miniskirt,

people said it was a prostitute.

After, when they wear the trouser,

they said they were ridiculous

because they wanted

to be more like a man.

It was showing in some way the fact

if they wanted to have trousers,

they had to show that

they were like man.

It is showing they have

to pretend to be...

To make like a carnival, like a man.

The woman after, then...

Maybe because they dream

about photos of beautiful,

glamorous women who were sexy

and they want to be like that.

It doesn't mean that

I am a slut or whatever.

Do you think you are trying

to make a statement

about gender or sexuality?

You have men dressed

in a very feminine way,

women in masculine attire.

You've made the male pinstripe suit

very popular with women.

Nicolas Ghesquiere, the creative

director of Louis Vuitton said

Jean Paul Gaultier changed so many

things in the creative process,

sexuality and fashion.

Was that your aim?

I think I contributed to it.

To say that I changed

the view of the woman...

I should say that people

have done that before.

Yves Saint-Laurent,

he put women in suits.

Mixing masculinity and

femininity is what I did.

Power and subjection,

but as a choice.

For men, I think I did a little more

because my first collection for men

was called the Male Object.

Like the woman.

When I was an adolescent I was very

shocked because I was surrounded

by my mother, my grandmother,

they were very nice and clever.

Afterwards I had some girlfriends

who were clever as well.

They knew what they wanted.

But you are more than that.

You bring sexuality into fashion.

You use bondage, latex...

You've made that a part

of your style, and I suppose that's

what we mean by bringing

sexuality into fashion.

You've mentioned Madonna,

you say you were really

fascinated by her.

How important is a muse

to you as a designer?

It is super important.

I think I became a designer

because of a movie I saw on TV,

a movie from the '40s,

when I was not born,

but I saw it in black and white.

That movie was speaking

about when a designer became crazy

and in love with his muse.

When I looked at it again, I say,

"I want to do the same job

as was doing in the movie.

I want to be like him."

I think he has a muse.

He changed his collection.

It became beautiful

because he was in love with her.

For me, it was normal.

It was to make fashion,

a fashion show, because in the movie

there was a fashion show.

You were inspired by that.

I have to ask you this,

because in April 2012,

you had a show and you sent

in a parade of Amy Winehouse

lookalikes six months

after she died.

Her father said that

was in bad taste.

He said, we are still

grieving for her loss.

Why did you do that?

I don't think at all

it was bad taste.

My conviction, because I love

her, I adore her...

You never met her, did you?

I never did, I went to see the only

show she did in Paris.

I am shy, even if I don't look

that shy, I saw her,

she was such an enormous star that

I didn't go after her to say hello.

I love her voice, his style

of music but also her look.

She has a look a little...

She has a spirit.

I was influenced by the '50s.

My looks in the '80s

were inspired by the '50s.

The beehive hair and

the heavy eyeliner.

And also corsetry and

tight stilettos, etc.

It was a mix.

Make it more like a punk,

so it was exactly...

Exactly in the same spirit

of what I did in the '80s.

Also for me, she was a fashion icon.

She was the only one going

against fashion, copying nobody.

So I respected that.

You liked her style.

We talked about how you like street

fashion, and your exhibition

at the Barbican is called

From the Sidewalk to the Catwalk.

Yet you have worked with very

couture name, like Hermes.

How do you reconcile your edgy,

street fashion and yet work

in a very conventional

house like that?

Isn't it a bit of a contradiction?

Not at all.

It was a complete contradiction

at the beginning.

Maybe when I started my first

collection in '76, maybe Hermes

was the opposite of myself.

I am coming from a suburb of Paris

where, to be honest,

there were not very many women

wearing a Kelly bag.

So you went to Hermes

in the early 2000s.

So yes, I went there.

And I started to make

the collection before,

with was one ex of my assistants,

a very talented designer.

But how do you reconcile

being an enfant terrible and working

with a conventional house like that,

doing the haute couture?

It was very interesting,

like a challenge for me.

For example, I was the opposite.

Letter by letter,

I did haute couture.

But for me, I have to mix my style,

which means my Gaultier

style,

let's say, to Hermes.

But first I had to work for Hermes,

and make the little things

I could bring to it.

But in this day and age,

who can afford the real haute

couture, when one dress

can cost 50,000 euros?

You're talking about maybe a couple

of thousand women globally,

who might send a private

plane and say,

let me see your latest collection,

make me a dress like that.

But very few people can afford it.

When I started, I saw only

haute couture on TV,

again.

I saw the image of hate couture,

so it was a dream.

And at one moment, when I was not

doing Dior, I wanted a little

studio for myself.

I will put that money

to make my own haute couture.

I made it only one time.

But in reality, I sold one

outfit to Nicole Kidman,

and another one to

a woman with a dress.

That is just

behind you, the one

with the sailor stripes.

Another signature dress.

For a wedding.

But it does not make money, does it?

It doesn't make money,

that really high haute couture?

It does not make so much money.

But I should say that in some ways,

it is an incredible idea.

I made a collection a long time ago,

which was more open to more people.

In reality, to make couture,

it's interesting because you can be

experimental about

fabric and techniques.

But you need to sell to the masses

and your late partner,

Francis Menuge, who tragically died

in 1990 of an AIDS-related illness,

really encouraged you to build your

empire, and to make money,

to go into fragrance,

and that kind of thing.

You owe him a great deal.

Definitely, it was fabulous.

He was absolutely fabulous,

and very creative, and more

of a businessman than me.

He told me before he died,

because he was thinking about living

still, he said we should do haute

couture and I said, why?

And he said, yes, but you know,

it is good, because luxury

I didn't do it to create an empire,

but I made perfume,

which was good for

going on, and can help.

But I never wanted to create

an empire for myself.

Only to make my

collection of nice clothes

that people appreciate.

But profitability is important.

And yet there is a bit

of a contradiction,

because when you were advertising

for models for one show,

you said conventionally pretty

models need not apply.

And you are famous for using models

of all shapes, sizes,

colours, ages, older people,

and all that kind of thing.

And yet you also managed

to sell your product.

How do you manage to do that?

Most people, when they look

at magazines, they do not

want to see themselves.

They want to see something

that is desirable,

that is perfection.

But I think many people can

open their minds to see

that there is not only

one type of beauty.

When I started, there were only

Swedish models that were in fashion,

in the beginning of the '70s.

So I remember that one girl came,

she came from America

and she was black,

and she had bleached hair.

And I found her fabulous,

and wanted her make the show.

But the artistic director said, no,

no, you know the American people,

they are racist, they

will not appreciate it.

But I said, my God, I do not care.

And I said, there are no clients,

no American clients,

no French clients, so why not?

So I always try to show

different beauty.

And in my show, myself,

I always choose the models.

I once chose an Algerian model,

and she was completely,

completely...

She had a different

attitude and look.

Very modern.

For me, she was perfect.

In some ways, my only

pretension is to be sure

of what I like about

people that impressed me.

When I say what I find beautiful,

even if some people do not

like their beauty, for me

it's more interesting,

and I insist.

Sure, but you're not

changing things.

It has been said that what sells is,

broadly speaking, a middle

view of what beauty is.

And people say actually

the obsession with zero-size models

is worse than it was in the 1980s,

when you had supermodels

like Cindy Crawford and models

that weren't stick-thin.

And at that time in

the '80s, I said the same.

In fashion, things are

coming and going back.

It will come back.

I do not say that to be

with more shape is the best,

and to have no shape

is the worst, and vice versa.

I do not say that.

I think it is a different

type of beauty.

But your message is not

getting through.

Kirsty Clements, the

Australian Vogue editor,

says that we still have stylists

and editors who seem to prefer

models to be young, coltish,

six-foot-tall, and built

like a prepubescent boy.

To be honest, I must say

that is not what I think.

I think there is a taboo

about getting old.

Like there is no beauty to be old.

It is wrong, completely wrong.

How can I find that to be

fat and old is ugly,

in the fact that my grandmother

was absolutely fabulous,

and she loved me, and

she was fantastically

beautiful, for me?

So of course, now,

I want to represent that.

There are some people who can be

old and I always present,

not in every show, but some people

that are beautiful and are old.

And some fat people.

I used one model...

But why do you think

it is still like this?

I should say that Nathalie Bondil,

the director of the Montreal Museum

of Fine Arts,

who was responsible for persuading

you to have this exhibition,

she says that with globalisation

of aesthetic standards,

growing numbers are being exposed

to the tyrannical obsession

of retouched photos,

displaying unreal bodies.

Asian eyes,

Western eyes, skin whitened,

wrinkles smoothed away

as if they are

politically incorrect.

Why is the world

of fashion like this?

It has always been crazy.

I think what I should say

is that I have nothing

but criticism about it.

The only critique I have

about it is I think the notion

of only one kind of fashion

should not exist anymore.

I mean, like, now we are -

there is a different morphology

of people.

Now all the world is travelling,

and we see a different type

of beauty, ethnic,

and we can appreciate it.

I think it is changing

little by little.

I think if you look at the young,

they are more open-minded,

maybe,

than the ones that

are not that young.

I must put it to you,

because the daughter of the Italian

designer

Emilio Pucci has said that Italy

needs young designers

who are going to generate

excitement and create

new categories of product.

The problem in Italy is that

you have designers over the age

of 70 who are still holding

onto their position.

Is it time for an older generation

of designers to make way

for the younger generation?

Well, firstly, I am not 70!

But I must say that I'm sure

there is a place for the young.

Definitely.

Already, I must say that I feel

incredible that I am still here.

Honestly, when I see

the designers of my generation,

a lot of change of life.

Even my assistant,

who was a Belgian designer and came

out in the '90s, he quit,

and he is some years

younger than me.

So I think, of course,

it will come around.

I was not making you 70,

but finally and briefly,

you have this exhibition

of your work, this is the eighth

venue for it.

Are you a living designer,

changing all the time,

or do your pieces

belong in a museum?

I think that in some ways it does

not belong in a museum.

By the fact that, when I see young

that there are some young designers

that are very much inspired

by the old clothes that

I did, when I see that they are some

things that you could wear now,

I feel very comfortable in that.

I think that is a good thing,

but in reality, it is still going!

When I retire, maybe

I will still continue.

So that's excellent.

Jean-Paul Gaultier, thank you very

much for coming on the programme.