Ahmed Kathrada - Anti-Apartheid activist HARDtalk


Ahmed Kathrada - Anti-Apartheid activist

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Welcome to HARDtalk I'm Sarah Montague.

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My guest today is one of the big names of the apartheid struggle

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in South Africa.

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Ahmed Kathrada was sentenced to life imprisonment alongside

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Nelson Mandela on Robben Island, spending 26 years of his

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life in prison.

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On their release, Nelson Mandela persuaded him to join him

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in government, an experience he did not like, but he has never

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stopped campaigning for the ideals of freedom

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on which the anti-apartheid movement was based.

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Has South Africa lived up to those ideals?

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Ahmed Kathrada, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you for having me.

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When you think back 50 years ago, what were the ideals

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for which you are fighting?

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In one sentence?

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It was for a non-racial, non-sexist, democratic South Africa.

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That sums up the whole struggle.

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That sums up the whole struggle?

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But, for you, there were years of what became

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an incredibly difficult life?

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You were arrested more than 18 times?

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You spent 26 years of your life in prison?

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There must have been times when you thought that this

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wasn't for you.

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There was no such thought at all.

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The activities for which we were arrested, we already knew

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what the consequences could be.

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Many of our colleagues were hanged.

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Others were tortured to death, some were assassinated.

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We had an idea of what it could be.

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Prison was a bonus because many of our colleagues didn't live

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to see it.

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You knew the price that you would have to pay.

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Was there a moment when you were young which you felt was such

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an outrage that you committed your life to it?

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Was it just a way of living?

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It was an afterthought because I was born in a little

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country town about 200 miles from Johannesburg.

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When the time came to go to school, I was not admitted into the white

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school nor into the black school.

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There was no Indian school.

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So at the age of eight, I had to be sent to Johannesburg

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which was 200 miles away, the school.

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At that age, it is not politics.

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One starts to wonder why I was not admitted into the schools

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of my friends because, as children, we played and we didn't know colour.

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You are playing alongside black and white...?

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Black and white.

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Our immediate neighbours were white.

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As children, children don't know colour.

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You become friends, you quarrel and become friends again.

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It wasn't politics.

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It was a young man questioning why couldn't go to school

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with my friends.

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But coming into Johannesburg, of course, I came face-to-face

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with apartheid, raw apartheid, which was not noticeable

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in the little country town in which I was born.

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Raw apartheid: In what way?

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How did it manifest?

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The first time, I saw boards in front of restaurants,

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hotels, libraries, trams, parks, saying "Europeans only,

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non- Europeans not allowed." There were even board that said

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"Non- Europeans and dogs are not allowed." That,

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I saw, for the first time in Johannesburg,

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not in the rural areas.

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When living with that, I wonder how often you are angry.

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Is there a constant sense of rage at the injustice?

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There was not much room for anger.

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As I said, the expectation was worse.

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Before we were brought up for trial in the Rivonia trial,

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there was a law that allowed the police to detain political

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suspects for three months at a time in complete isolation.

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No visitors allowed, no lawyers, no newspapers, no books.

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The only visitor one gets are the police and they come

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from time to time with one message only: Give us this bit

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of information or you are going to die, you are going to hang.

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So you are by yourself.

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You are incommunicado.

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All the thoughts in your mind are death.

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They come in and tell you that you are going to die unless you give

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us this information.

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One has to steel oneself not to talk.

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Not to answer questions.

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And, fortunately, I managed that.

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The other fortunate thing is that I was not tortured physically

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unlike many of my friends and colleagues.

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Some were tortured to death.

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Others survived.

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Some went into parliament, others stuck around.

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Initially, it was non-violent but around 1960, a number

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of things happened.

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There was the Sharpeville Massacre in which 69 people were killed.

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The ANC were banned and there was a decision that violence should

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begin in the east.

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How did you feel about that?

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About...?

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About the ANC decision to begin using violence?

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To make it an armed struggle?

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I accepted that.

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Especially after the banning of the ANC and the other

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organisations, the avenues of peaceful protest came to a halt.

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There was no other way out.

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That is when the ANC set up a wing for the armed struggle.

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It was never envisaged that there would be a military victory.

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Because the first phase of the armed struggle was recruiting,

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training recruits in the manufacture and planting of bombs.

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These were to be planted - the targets, rather,

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where these places which had the sign saying that non-

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Europeans were not allowed.

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But every recruit, and there were cells of three,

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they had to take an oath that when the bombs were planted,

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there would be no injury to human beings.

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But their work...

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The original intention...

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There were a couple of instances...

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And there were numerous bombings and at least 63 people died

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as a result.

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And there were a few and if I'm correct, they were done

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by what we called MK units, some of them in violation

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of their discipline.

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You mentioned the Rivonia Trial which was significant for a number

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of reasons, the trial in which you and Nelson Mandela

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and others were sent to Robben Island.

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It was also significant because of what was said

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at the trial, not least by Nelson Mandela himself.

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He said that it was not a criminal case, but a political one.

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It was deliberate policy on your part, the group

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of you standing trial, wasn't it?

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We had four of the most senior leaders of the ANC among the eight

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of us who were tried.

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Right from the beginning, under their leadership,

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it was decided that this should be a political trial.

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We the accused, together with our lawyers, turned it

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into a political trial, not a criminal trial.

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Mandela, in his four-hour speech, I think, to the court,

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set the tone of what the defence case would be.

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It was a turn you had all agreed to in advance?

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Yes.

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This is where he said what he fought for and if need be,

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he hoped to die?

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That was how he ended his address.

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Not all of us gave evidence.

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Those of us who did took the cue from what Mr Mandela said

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in beginning the defence case.

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In other words, when he went into the witness box,

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you proclaim your political beliefs.

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You do not apologise.

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You do not ask for mercy.

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And when there is a death sentence which was factored into it

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until the last day, there can be no appeal to a higher court.

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That was how the whole case was conducted.

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As I said, Mandela set the lead and those of us who gave evidence

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followed in that example.

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That trial about which you wrote afterwards, you wrote a letter

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from Robben Island in which you said that it was sad to see former

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comrades who you loved and respected coming one by one into the witness

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box to give evidence and it hurts when these people tell lies,

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some of them unashamedly.

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There were a couple who were in fairly senior positions

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who gave evidence.

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There were others who gave evidence whose role was very minor.

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In fact, some of them did not even know that they were carrying

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on political work.

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For instance, there were owners of vehicles who were used to smuggle

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people out of the country.

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They were told that these were football team is going to Botswana.

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Eventually, they discovered this but they played ball.

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People betrayed you?

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I would not call it betrayal.

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They were severely tortured.

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I do not know if I would have held out under that torture.

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There is a very tight group of you who were standing trial.

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Later, you said about Nelson Mandela's death

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that you were...

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"Now I have lost a brother.

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My life is a void and I do know to whom to turn." This

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is as a result of your shared experiences.

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He played a very special role in my life.

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As I said, I had come to Johannesburg at the age of eight

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but as the years went by, and I got involved

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with the Young Communist League and the Indian Youth Congress

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and so forth, in that capacity, I met Walter Sisulu and the others.

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My biological father had died when I was 14.

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Gradually, I regarded Sisulu as my father in fact.

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I could turn to him for the most personal advice.

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You mentioned Silvia Hill.

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She was white.

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And when I started the relationship with her, I consulted with Sisulu -

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I told him about the association.

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If we get caught, it can have a negative impact

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on our struggle, our organisation - that was what I thought.

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His response was: We are against all racial laws,

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including the Immorality Act and Mixed Marriages Act.

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Just be careful.

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But if you get caught, we will stand by you.

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Just be careful.

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One of the members of your family, Nelson Mandela, not just

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on Robben Island but Pollsmoore, where you shared a cell with him.

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But earlier, what was that like?

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That was the first time, after 18 years on Robben Island,

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when there were transfers.

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It was the first time we were in one cell.

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On Robben Island, in the 18 years we spent there,

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we were in single cells.

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The only time we met and talked was at work when we did the pick

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and shovel work in the quarry.

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That was when we could work together and talk.

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Once we were locked up, we were not allowed to talk.

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So because there were only five political prisoners there,

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things were more relaxed.

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So to be sharing a cell, that was...

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We were sharing a cell until we were transferred in 1982.

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For three years we were together in one cell, and then Mr Mandela

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was separated from us.

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He was kept at the prison, but away from us.

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That is when he started talking to the other side.

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When you did eventually get out, he persuaded

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you to go into government.

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He offered you a seat, you turned down a Cabinet seat.

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He offered you an ANC position as adviser and you didn't like it.

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I wonder why?

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You had struggled your whole life to change Africa and now you had

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an opportunity to do so.

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What did you dislike about it?

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Not all of us were aiming to go into Parliament.

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I was working in his office of course, for the five years.

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I was elected a Member of Parliament.

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For some reason, I just did not like that kind of life.

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What you did was to set up a foundation.

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Much later.

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One of its aims was to campaign for the Freedom Charter.

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That was a document from 1955.

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That was a document from 1955.

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It talked about freedom, all people having rights.

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People sharing the country's wealth.

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The land being shared among those who worked it.

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A very radical redistribution of wealth within South Africa.

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South Africa is a long way from achieving that.

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Do you think it can?

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Do you still want it to?

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Unlike other colonial countries, our oppressors were not foreigners.

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They were South Africans.

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So our policy took that into account, that these

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are fellow countrypersons.

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Not a few thousand, but a few million.

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Our policy had to take that into account.

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So that if you tried to implement everything we have said on that

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platform and so forth, when you come into government,

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you are dealing with reality.

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In terms of what the government set out to achieve, at the end

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of apartheid almost 90% of the land was owned by whites,

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who made up 10% of the population.

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The aim was to transfer about 30% of that land to blacks.

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So far only about 7.5% has been.

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It is 20 years since apartheid.

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Is that enough progress?

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Again, when we say that most of the land that can be used

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for agriculture was in white hands.

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But again, you face the reality.

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You are not dealing with enemies any more.

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And we are not going to do anything foolish by turning these

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people against us.

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We have to work with them.

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The policy was in practice.

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We didn't know how to run huge farms.

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We didn't know how to run industry.

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We didn't have engineers.

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We, on every ministry, we relied on the white society.

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When you look at what senior politicians have done and been

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criticised for, for example the Public Protector,

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Thuli Madonsela, who told Parliament, all I can tell

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the committee is that corruption has

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reached crisis proportions.

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There are no two ways about it.

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As I say, as a member of the ANC, I have admiration for the Public

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Protector.

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The Public Protector, the public itself, these

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are all institutions to protect our democracy.

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Let's talk about another campaign.

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Another campaign in another country.

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You see you visualise your fellow freedom fighter, Marwan Barghouti,

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and other Palestinian prisoners, and you have campaigned vociferously

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for his release.

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You say he is in a similar situation, and arguably a worse

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situation, than Nelson Mandela.

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The ANC policy has always regarded the PLO as a sister organisation.

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An ally organisation.

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That is the policy of our government as well.

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We have close ties with the PLO.

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Although western countries were not happy with that.

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When Mr Mandela came out of prison he was advised to break ties

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with Castro and with the PLO.

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His response was very simple.

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To the western leaders, when we came to you for assistance,

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you condemned us as terrorists.

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It would be ungrateful and immoral of us now to turn our backs on those

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who supported us.

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Is it solely because they supported you?

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You will know that Alan Butler, whose son was injured,

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and he was injured, when a bus was bombed in Jerusalem.

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He said the media had attempted to portray Marwan Barghouti

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as a kind of Nelson Mandela.

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The truth is quite the opposite.

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He has shown no remorse for his activities.

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Mandela showed no remorse for what we had done.

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In fact we have been proud of what we have done.

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We can't prescribe to another country how they should

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run their struggle.

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My own view is that I continue to support the Palestinian struggle,

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once the leaders have decided this is

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the road we will take.

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Is their use of violence justified?

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If so, that is not for me to say.

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But if they in their wisdom resort to violence as the only method,

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I will support them.

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I have been to Palestine.

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I have seen what it is like.

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It is the only colony in the world today, colony of Islam.

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I have seen in Palestine what didn't exist under the worst

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days of apartheid.

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So your support is unconditional?

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My support is wholehearted.

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I take my cue from what they do.

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I don't prescribe to them.

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So far there is no reason for me to criticise

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the Palestinian leadership.

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The African Zionist foundation has accused

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Marwan Barghouti of being a terrorist guilty

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of multiple crimes against humanity.

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I am not surprised at that.

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They have tried to turn...

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Let me take this as an individual, because I have been

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outspoken on Palestine.

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They have been trying to misinterpret us

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as being anti-Jewish.

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Anti-semitic.

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We are not.

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We are critical of Israel.

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That does not make us anti-Jewish.

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Some of our leaders are Jewish.

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So many...

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Ruth Slovo.

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I grew up with her.

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She was killed by a bomb.

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She is Jewish.

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So I can never be anti-Jewish.

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Our struggle can never be anti-Jewish.

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When you at times think about what has happened,

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do you summon rage?

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Do you ever feel anger?

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I never did.

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I never felt angry.

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We came out of prison, and before our policy was reconciliation.

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Following from that policy of reconciliation,

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is lack of bitterness.

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No revenge.

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No hatred.

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Policy-wise, and in practice, that is the only way forward.

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These are negative emotions, revenge, bitterness.

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In the end, people who harbour those emotions suffer more.

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So we don't want to spend our lives with negative emotions.

0:24:010:24:04

We have to face the reality of this day.

0:24:040:24:06

Ahmed Kathrada, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

0:24:060:24:15

Most welcome.

0:24:150:24:17

Hello there.

0:24:300:24:31

The next few days are looking more unsettled, more cloud and outbreaks

0:24:310:24:34

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