Kizza Besigye - Ugandan opposition leader HARDtalk


Kizza Besigye - Ugandan opposition leader

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arrested on murder charges. Now it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to Hyde Park. Today, a former ally of Uganda's president

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was of any who have become his biggest critic, Kizza Besigye is

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Uganda's best known opposition figure. As the former leader of the

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main opposition party, the Forum for Democratic Change, he has run three

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times against President Museveni in elections and lost each time. He has

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called for popular protests in Uganda like the ones that lead to

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the uprisings of the Arab Spring. So why has he failed to mobilise public

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opinion behind him? Doctor Kizza Besigye, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Thank you very much. You have been in opposition for several

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decades now. What have you got to show for it? A lot I think has

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changed in Uganda over the last three decades that we have been

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active in politics there. And that is because of you? Certainly not. It

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is because of very many people. I would not discount my own personal

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contribution. What has that been? I think it has been at several

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leathers. I was involved in the struggle in the. Military struggle.

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It was a protracted struggle that brought the National Resistance

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Movement into office. That is the NRM led by President Museveni. We

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are looking at times when you are an ally of President Museveni. In 2001,

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2006, two double that you stood in elections against it and lost each

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time the badly. Is not fair to say I lost cause you only lose if there is

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a fair contest. Certainly, none of those contest were fair and is not

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just my opinion. It is the opinion of the Supreme Court of Uganda. They

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say that the elections were not free or fair and in such a context, you

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cannot talk about loses. Is that really the case? Buchenwald as are

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the group and the EU both observe the elections in 2011, the ones in

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feathery. They said there was some concern about the lack of a level

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playing field, the use of money and abuse of incumbency in the process

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but the key thing that Acer is that the question of the legitimacy of

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the outcome that should not be under question. President Museveni still

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would have won. The figures were 60% and he won for the forum to do that

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because it change. Of course, that is not a reasonable conclusion. Once

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you have said there is a problem with the playing field, it was not

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level. There was an abuse of incumbency by bringing in so much

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money. Once you have outlined as things, you can't go ahead and make

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a conclusion. But they did. That is a diplomatic conclusion. That is

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partly the problem with these with external observers. You still insist

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that you might have won the elections. I know that we won those

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elections. Incidentally, apart from what has been said by the courts of

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law which investigated because the courts of law had evidence that was

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presented. The case that were presented to court which was in 2001

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and 2006, court judges, unanimously agreed that the elections were not

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fair. I will tell you what was told by the observers in 2011. Now that

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you have failed for whatever reason at the ballot box, you are shifting

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your protest to the streets. Trying to get regime change that way? Well,

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first of all, we proved that the elections were not free or fair. We

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proved that we had popular support and we now want a fair election. Our

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protests are not primarily for regime change as they are for a free

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and fair election. That is not till 2016. That is not how a lot of

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people see it. A man from the independent magazine said in June

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2012 after you step down as leader of the FDC in 2012, leading the

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street protest. He said this radicalised group, largely led by

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doctor Kizza Besigye has now opted for civil protest to promote regime

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change. You let regime change we want. You don't necessarily look for

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routine change without elections. We think there will be elections that

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must be free and fair. We should have a regime change outweigh. Is

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that case is that if there was a free and fair election in Uganda...

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We cannot be judged what will happen in 2016. I want to explore what you

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said. You say you want protests to make sure the elections are free and

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fair use it more than that on CNN. You said in 2011 you would not be

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surprised if what was happening in North Africa, spread in the rest of

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Africa. Talk of a sub Saharan, African spring. It has not

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happened. It did not happen even in the Arab countries I was talking

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about. It doesn't have to happen the moment you say it will happen. All

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the ingredients that caused the Arab Spring are there in most of Africa.

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The fact that there is gross marginalisation of large sections of

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the population, the fact that there is unbelievable corruption and

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monopoly of power of small cliques of people. And gross violation of

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rights. All of these things... So you think the ingredients of a?

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Definitely. Someone wrote that he sensed an Arab Spring is it less

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likely in Africa because gigabyte of their 1,000,001 imperfections, the

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political systems in our region are sufficiently participatory, a factor

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that mitigate against revolution he disagrees with you. He is just

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expressing an opinion. 65% of all MPs and local council officials

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don't get re`elected in every election in Uganda. The NRM led by

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President Museveni holds 254 out of 379 seat in Parliament. The others

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are held by five opposition parties. There is some democratic space in

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Uganda. Murder isn't. You must understand the structure of the

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state. Power is not controlled by President Museveni. It is controlled

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by him as a person. It is in the interest of President Museveni that

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MPs and other leaders are not re`elected. Because if they become

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powerful within the end`around, they undermine his control over the

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organisation and the state. He wants fresh and informs people to perform

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the team around him each time. I put it to you that that is some

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democratic space. Just look at Freedom of the press. Reporters

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without Borders has looked at lots of countries and it has put Uganda

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104 out of 179, relatively free press. It than Brazil, Nigeria,

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Israel and also a whole load of African countries. In terms of free

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press you have chosen a wrong area because more than anybody else... I

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moved on to reporters without Borders. Get but in this case he

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would know that his organisation, the one that groomed him has been

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closed twice by the military invading it and keeping it closed

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for weeks. Because of publishing something that was perfectly

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factual. I am putting it to you that it is relatively... I am not saying

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it is clearly free press but it is moderately free. You do not have the

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legal... I would not even categorise Uganda as totally authoritarian. It

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is a liberal regime, it is controlled, don't forget that

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President Museveni and all of the leaders that have led Uganda, none

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of them came to office through an election. All of them came to office

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through bombing. Their bond they wear into office. At you with him in

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the beginning, when she? You are his personal physician and you backed

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him as leader. Yes I did. Were you involved in a bombing campaign is

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yellow absolutely. The point here is that all our history, there is

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no... There is no change of government peacefully and all the

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leaders who have stayed in office have done so with the use of the

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military. Unless you don't take into the fact that the military brings

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leaders into office, the fact that they are not chosen by the

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population, they are not removed by the population means that the

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population does not have any control over their leaders. The fact is, if

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you look at Uganda's neighbourhood, you have a lot of instability around

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you. South Sudan, the problems with Somalia and Al`Shabaab, the terror

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attacks in Kenya. I put it to you that actually, as is being observed

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in Egypt sometimes people want rule by a strong person. Of the

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laboratory is removed and now in elections in Egypt, a lot of people

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are backing Abdul Fattah al`Sisi. Another strongman. Abdul Fattah

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al`Sisi is the candidate of national necessity rather than the public

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desire. There is no choice but to make a military officer and head of

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government. Because similar things about President Museveni. You have

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to be very careful about this whole debate of stability and democracy.

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There is no doubt about the fact that strong leaders can momentarily

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create some semblance of stability. And a semblance of peace. Is not a

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semblance of stability. It is real. You have bombs in July 2010 in

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Kampala when people were watching the football. Healy 80 people died.

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You have had raids against militant extremists on an island in Lake

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Victoria in August 2013, a couple of dozen people arrested. You have got

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a problem in your own country with some Islamist rebels who want to set

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up an independent Islamic State in Uganda. About 12% of your population

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is Muslim. Without strong institutions, you can create some

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zealots of stability and peace. Through coercion and use of diffused

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state power of people. It is not sustainable. Actually, the ultimate

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effect is worse. Because they have amassed later the institutions of

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the state. You have just a strong individual. Once the individual

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collapses, the state collapses. This is partly what we have in Somalia

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are quite so it is all right if President Museveni stayed in power

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indefinitely as long as he is fit and capable to run the country? No.

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The point I am putting to you is that first of all, that stability is

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not sustainable. It is sustainable at the moment. The US Defence

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Secretary at Chuck Hagel in September 2013 thanked President

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Museveni for Uganda's leadership in the region. He praised Ugandan

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forces for their efforts to defeat Al`Shabaab for which progress

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recently approved $14 million extra in aid. If you remove the name of

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President Museveni, the US forces could be saying the same about Hosni

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Ma Barak. created the impression that he was

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the centre... (CROSSTALK) I told you what happened in Egypt. Look what is

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happening now. People say another strongman will be voted in. I would

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like to attract you to understand that what is happening now is,

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things to Mubarak, which undermine state institutions and to strengthen

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military and which has led to the situation we are having now ``

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thanks. Museveni said in 2011, I am not Idi Amin. He used to murder his

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opponents, throw them in the River Nile to the crocodiles. I haven't

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heard of bodies being thrown to the crocodiles to eat. Idi Ami and

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managed to get himself notorious worldwide. Museveni isn't Idi Amin.

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Are you saying that Museveni isn't different from Idi Amin? Absolutely.

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Would you have been able to walk around the streets if he was in

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power? Unlikely. The difference is simply in the extent. Not in the

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direction. They are moving in the same direction. What is your agenda?

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You have some support. A political commentator in the daily monitor in

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2014 said this about you. The opposition thinks getting to the

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people through demonstrations is the best way forward because crowds are

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exciting and it makes it great when they can chart anti`government

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rhetoric. This doesn't always turn into votes. As a key figure, what

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are you saying to people is your agenda? Why should they vote for you

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if you were to run? What we are fundamentally trying to deal with

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this injustice. Injustice of marginalising large sections of our

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people. Our agenda is in three areas. One, to ensure we have an

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informed, involved, active citizenry. One that can demand and

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ensure that they are well governed. Also, we want institutional

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governance, rather than rule, which we are talking about. Institutional

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governance is underpinned by their respect for rights, the rule of law,

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and, the effective control of corruption. Corruption, which has

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devastated all of our services. Three, we want an economy, we want

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to build an economy that is inclusive. That is broad`based. We

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have been talking about growth in the economy. 6%, 5%, 7%. Very narrow

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`based. Is that the case? You have got forecast of 6% growth. The World

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Bank, in a 2014 report, said this, Uganda has established a record of

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prudent management and structural reform between 1990 and the 2000s.

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Strong economic growth enables the substantial reduction in poverty.

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They have surpassed the millennium development goal of halving poverty.

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It is on track to meet the others. Museveni has a good track record on

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tackling poverty. The starting point of the NRM in 1986 was extremely

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wrong because the state had collapsed. That wasn't Museveni's

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fault. Pardon? He took over a country that was in a bad way. Do

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you dispute what the World Bank said, that Museveni... (CROSSTALK)

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when you are talking about halving, in statistics, it appears

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impressive. If you have been getting $1 a day, if you get $1 50 each day,

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you have increased the income by almost 100%. The reality is that the

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level of poverty, this is part of the problem of the World Bank, is

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that they just used figures and not real conditions of people. The human

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development. The conditions of people. I have to say to you, I gave

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you the UN millennium development goal, approved by all nations and

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Uganda, as I said, surpassed the goal on halving poverty and is on

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track to empowering women and reducing child mortality. On track

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for strategies for sustainable access to drinking water and basic

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sanitation. I am saying, under Museveni, the economy is helping

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deliver. No. Over the last 30 years, first of all, Uganda still has the

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highest, one of the highest birth rates, the youngest population in

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the world with more than half the people in Uganda being less than 15

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years. When you are talking about the improvements, you are talking

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about improvements against these extraordinary expansion of the

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population in a short time. If you are looking at... Why the wait,

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mortality has increased from 16 women dying perday to 19. This is

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the latest report. It has actually increased. `` maternal mortality. We

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have reduced the instances of HIV/Aids. It has gone back up again

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so what if you look at other African countries, in some cases they aren't

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doing as well as Uganda. What are you going to do now? You are a focal

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point for protesting against the government. As I say, you are

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involved in walk to work protests against the cost of living in that

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kind of thing. You were shot in the hand, partly blinded by the police

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when they used pepper spray on you in April 2011. Will you continue to

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be the thorn in the side of the government? I am not the problem.

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The problem are the contradictions which are there. They cause popular

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anger. Myself as an individual, I wouldn't be able to be a problem to

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the government. If what I was doing wasn't massively supported by the

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people of Uganda and indeed, which poses a threat. I don't know how

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many are attending these rallies of yours? We don't see tens of

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thousands, do we masse they aren't protesting. If they were not

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thousands and thousands of people that support what we are doing, we

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wouldn't be a threat to the regime. We don't see tens of thousands

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rallying behind you. You failed to rally public opinion. Why would a

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live as a prisoner in Uganda. I can't live freely. My home is

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surrounded by soldiers. What would cause that? If whatever I do isn't

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perceived as a threat regime. I would like to assure you that this

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is... The reason it is a threat is indeed that 84% of youth in Uganda

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are unemployed. Don't have work. What is it like to work closely with

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someone many years ago, admiring them, thinking they are a great

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leader, then falling out with them so dramatically? What is it like on

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a personal level? Do you talk to him? I haven't spoken with him

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directly in 15 years. This was someone you looked after as his

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personal physician? Not just looking after him as a physician, also as a

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friend. As a colleague in a struggle. And, as someone I was also

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professionally related to. And, someone I believe in, someone I

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thought was indeed committed to the ideals we are struggling for. You

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can imagine the kind of... Blow that... And even trauma that one

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feels when you realise that you have invested so much of your time and

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effort and you have been conned. What will happen now? Will you run

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for elections in 2016, have another go? Our into a focus, not only me,

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but the entire leadership of the opposition, including other

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organisations, is to demand fundamental political reforms.

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Without them, any election is a fast. Yes or no? I won't run unless

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there are fundamental reforms which we are investing our time and effort

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to achieve. Dr Kizza Besigye, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Most

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welcome. Thank you very much. For the middle part of the week, we

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are expecting more rain but I'm sure sooner or later we will

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