Xiaolu Guo HARDtalk


Xiaolu Guo

Similar Content

Browse content similar to Xiaolu Guo. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

argument in a bar. Now, it is time for HARDtalk.

:00:00.:00:16.

Welcome to the programme. It is the 25th anniversary this year of the

:00:17.:00:18.

Tiananmen Square massacre in Beijing, which saw hundreds killed

:00:19.:00:26.

and many more detained. One award`winning British`Chinese writer

:00:27.:00:31.

and filmmaker was a teenager at the time. Decades earlier, during the

:00:32.:00:38.

Cultural Revolution, Xiaolu Guo 's fisherman father had spent more than

:00:39.:00:42.

ten years in correctional labour camps for painting a picture that

:00:43.:00:47.

had angered the Chinese authorities. What should the role of the artist

:00:48.:01:12.

or writer be in China today? Welcome to HARDtalk. You say that

:01:13.:01:19.

art should have social responsibility. What do you mean by

:01:20.:01:25.

that? It is about the power of the public intellectual and the role of

:01:26.:01:29.

the political artist, especially for a writer and filmmaker like me

:01:30.:01:34.

coming from the East and living in Western Europe. I think our

:01:35.:01:42.

education keeps returning me to the subject of how literature and cinema

:01:43.:01:45.

should communicate. And in this discussion in the west, it is

:01:46.:01:50.

something a bit ambiguous because an artist should remain sober and

:01:51.:01:52.

independent from ontological discussion. But in my case, I was

:01:53.:01:59.

always there on the front. If you look at Charles Dickens, for

:02:00.:02:02.

instance, he wrote about the urban middle class in England. But his

:02:03.:02:08.

writing also had a social message. He was part of the contemporary

:02:09.:02:13.

debate then about social reforms. There is a long and venerable

:02:14.:02:16.

tradition of that kind of writing. Is that how you see yourself in that

:02:17.:02:22.

genre? Not entirely because I think Charles Dickens is really... The

:02:23.:02:26.

traditional drama, the narrative, is very tense. You really follow his

:02:27.:02:32.

narrative thread. But I guess that for a writer like me coming from the

:02:33.:02:37.

East, perhaps the drama part is quite light. There is so much in the

:02:38.:02:43.

political background and the cultural message that is not easy to

:02:44.:02:47.

transfer to the West. And when you use double language, bilingual

:02:48.:02:50.

writing, sometimes I write in English and sometimes in Chinese,

:02:51.:02:54.

there is a certain interpretation and I have to bridge this cultural

:02:55.:02:58.

difference. It is quite complex for me. One of your characters in your

:02:59.3:54:49

new book, I am China, which was timed to coincide with the 25th

3:54:503:54:49

anniversary of Tiananmen Square, has the story of a punk musician who

3:54:503:54:49

protested Tiananmen Square and then seeks asylum in the West. Do you

3:54:503:54:49

believe that Chinese writers like yourself should be a voice of

3:54:503:54:49

protest when you say there is no art without political commitment? And

3:54:503:54:49

very connected to this punk minuted character `` musician character.

3:54:503:54:49

There is another woman in the book who believes life should be beyond

3:54:503:54:49

political struggle in life is bigger than everything else. His character

3:54:503:54:49

is inspired from a kind of Asian political fighter combined with a

3:54:503:54:49

kind of ironic colour, like Johnny Rotten, and there is a kind of... I

3:54:503:54:49

wanted to discuss the punk movement and how much power punk really had

3:54:503:54:49

in history and did it work in history? Looking at it in general

3:54:503:54:49

terms or through your book, do you believe that the role of the Chinese

3:54:503:54:49

writer should be a voice of protest, should be a voice of dissent? The

3:54:503:54:49

acclaimed Chinese artist I way way has said, and of course, he has had

3:54:503:54:49

trouble with the authorities, he says: Chinese artist must absolutely

3:54:503:54:49

see it as their duty to dissent. Do you agree? I think I do agree that

3:54:503:54:49

artists should not live like a political martyr. An artist should

3:54:503:54:49

not give up their life for an ideological struggle. What is more

3:54:503:54:49

important is if you can remain as a sober artist and keep a distance

3:54:503:54:49

from the heated political engagement, you have much more space

3:54:503:54:49

later on to defend certain ideas. If you die on the spot, you are gone

3:54:503:54:49

and there is no more voice. When Mo Yan, the Chinese writer, received

3:54:503:54:49

the Nobel Prize in literature in 2011 and people criticise that

3:54:503:54:49

because many felt he was too close to the Chinese state, you defended

3:54:503:54:49

him. Yes. It was a great discussion at the time, when Mo Yan received

3:54:503:54:49

the prize after Liu Xiaobo received the peace prize earlier that year, I

3:54:503:54:49

love his work and sometimes a Chinese state artist might not be as

3:54:503:54:49

good as those from a Western... You do not agree when he says Chinese

3:54:503:54:49

artists have a duty to dissent. I think there is a difference between

3:54:503:54:49

his `` because Mo Yan 's work is different and subtle and he will go

3:54:503:54:49

on for a long time because he will not live as a political martyr on

3:54:503:54:49

the square. He does things in a more humanistic way. His works are crazy

3:54:503:54:49

and surreal. Maybe it does not work in the year when certain issues come

3:54:503:54:49

out, but it does work later on. If you look at the fact that Mo Yan is

3:54:503:54:49

lionised and celebrated in China today by the state, by the ruling

3:54:503:54:49

party, he has become a multimillionaire and he is on the

3:54:503:54:49

record as saying censorship in China is something akin to airport

3:54:503:54:49

security checks, which is to say, necessary, are you sure you really

3:54:503:54:49

want to... Just in general, the kind of view he represents, you say that

3:54:503:54:49

is OK? I think that the writer cannot be defined by this. This

3:54:503:54:49

thing, the fame, the wealth. It is a superficial thing. Because that

3:54:503:54:49

comes after what he really is. And I think the work itself is a much more

3:54:503:54:49

serious demonstration of his soul, his spirit. And in a way, I think

3:54:503:54:49

that we are on a long journey to understand what is real Chinese art,

3:54:503:54:49

what is real China. In China itself over the last 20, 50 years, is such

3:54:503:54:49

a complicated system. I just want to get a clear idea of where you stand

3:54:503:54:49

on this debate of whether you should be somebody who is a voice of

3:54:503:54:49

protest and events `` dissent, whatever the consequences are, as Ai

3:54:503:54:49

Weiwei has said. He has been detained for many months and

3:54:503:54:49

harassed by the authorities and so on. There are those who have

3:54:503:54:49

criticised people like the writer Mo Yan, for not signing a petition

3:54:503:54:49

signed by 130 Nobel laureates including Desmond Tutu, calling for

3:54:503:54:49

the release of Liu Xiaobo, and he says he does not want to sign this,

3:54:503:54:49

he does not see why he should. I think certain people being cornered

3:54:503:54:49

into their position and identity... The question of identity as to what

3:54:503:54:49

kind of writer or artist you are. That is a dubious discussion because

3:54:503:54:49

how do people live beyond your corner or identity because life

3:54:503:54:49

becomes unliveable. I take the idea of the Soviet system and a great

3:54:503:54:49

artist working under the Stalinist regime. I believe he was one of the

3:54:503:54:49

best composure is in the whole world. `` composers. But he managed

3:54:503:54:49

to create his own kind of individualistic, sober, pure

3:54:503:54:49

thoughts into his music despite being under state command. I do not

3:54:503:54:49

see why these two cannot coexist. There is very little freedom of

3:54:503:54:49

expression in China. One statistic: Reporters Without Borders says that

3:54:503:54:49

there are something like 70 citizens imprisoned at the moment and 30

3:54:503:54:49

journalists. The kind of myriad things that the state does to try to

3:54:503:54:49

control the internet. You cannot talk about Tiananmen Square, Taiwan

3:54:503:54:49

and Tibet without incurring the wrath of the senses. There is a

3:54:503:54:49

great deal of self`censorship at play for artists and writers working

3:54:503:54:49

in China. That is the point, that you cannot really be free to express

3:54:503:54:49

yourself as an artist or writer in China, given those constraints. I

3:54:503:54:49

think yes and no. If you require the official version, your work has to

3:54:503:54:49

go to the official channels to be published and distributed for the

3:54:503:54:49

masses. That is a problem. How many people you can reach through the

3:54:503:54:49

official channels. But then, the undercurrent culture, the subculture

3:54:503:54:49

is so strong. If you meet young people in Beijing and Shanghai, you

3:54:503:54:49

will be impressed at the energy underground in China. I would say

3:54:503:54:49

yes and no because I would say that there are different levels of

3:54:503:54:49

censorship and living in the West, I keep saying that there is even

3:54:503:54:49

stronger commercial censorship in the West than the political

3:54:503:54:49

censorship in the East and that becomes an invisible censorship,

3:54:503:54:49

where we believe we are free and living in a democratic country, but

3:54:503:54:49

then... What do you mean by commercial censorship? Only things

3:54:503:54:49

that are going to appeal to a wide market are published? That what is

3:54:503:54:49

published in countries like the UK is market`driven? You equate that

3:54:503:54:49

with censorship of the political kind that we see in China? We

3:54:503:54:49

presume that the free market is a neutral market, that there is not a

3:54:503:54:49

domination from certain kinds of powers. But the free market is very

3:54:503:54:49

much dominated by an elite or corporations these days. This market

3:54:503:54:49

is deleterious to alternative culture. It puts the mass culture

3:54:503:54:49

that consumers need on the first level, so the subculture, the

3:54:503:54:49

undercurrent culture, remains underground and a subculture. And I

3:54:503:54:49

think that market, the so`called free market, becomes a market that

3:54:503:54:49

is not free. People publish on the internet if they do not get deals

3:54:503:54:49

with major publishers. You cannot really equate that kind of

3:54:503:54:49

commercial pressure to have a successful book... But I think we

3:54:503:54:49

are not immune from the publicity, the propaganda machine, and that is

3:54:503:54:49

so strong. Many artists in China publish great stuff that I have

3:54:503:54:49

never heard of but the commercial propaganda is only focused on a few

3:54:503:54:49

big products. Including yours? You have written many successful books

3:54:503:54:49

in English and Chinese and won many successful awards and your work does

3:54:503:54:49

get published. Is kind of a struggle, the situation. It is a

3:54:503:54:49

difficult task for writers these days. Briefly, to finish off this

3:54:503:54:49

thing about the role of the writer in China, how do you see the role of

3:54:503:54:49

the writer, the Chinese writer? Really, if a writer can live beyond

3:54:503:54:49

national identity. I can only take myself as an example. When I lived

3:54:503:54:49

in China, I saw myself absolutely 100% as a Chinese writer, writing in

3:54:503:54:49

Mandarin speaking Chinese. But in the last 12 years, coming to Britain

3:54:503:54:49

and living in Western Europe, that has really enlarge the possibility

3:54:503:54:49

that... You can live in a multi` identity. I'm an Anglo Oriental

3:54:503:54:49

writer. The last ten years I have lived in Britain, I have written in

3:54:503:54:49

English but the subject is mostly China. Then again, is it so

3:54:503:54:49

important to have this national identity? Because that is imposed on

3:54:503:54:49

you. You cannot change that. I think it would be great if a writer could

3:54:503:54:49

live beyond national constraints and talk about the things beyond... You

3:54:503:54:49

say that you write about China but in English for the most part now and

3:54:503:54:49

your books are not freely available, the ones who have written

3:54:503:54:49

in Chinese, in China. Who do you see yourself... Who your audience? What

3:54:503:54:49

is your mission? To explain China to a Western audience writing in

3:54:503:54:49

English? Because there are people like Mo Yan who say, I don't care

3:54:503:54:49

about global audiences and I only write in Chinese for a Chinese

3:54:503:54:49

audience. Hoodie right Anyone, east or west, with a similar

3:54:503:54:49

experience. So for the first few years, you will live here, and then

3:54:503:54:49

in Japan. Or elsewhere. We share this global environment. So you

3:54:503:54:49

don't have a clear audience. I'll tell you what an acclaimed writer

3:54:503:54:49

told HARDtalk in July this year. I am published in the West, and there

3:54:503:54:49

is something that makes me very uncomfortable about that. The people

3:54:503:54:49

among whom I live, and grew up, had no access to my products. Does she

3:54:503:54:49

but I think it is a process. It is but I think it is a process. It is

3:54:503:54:49

not a static phase, people will never read your novel in other

3:54:503:54:49

countries, I think the translation and reintroduction back to your

3:54:503:54:49

native country can be in five years' time, or seven years' time. I

3:54:503:54:49

don't think that a big constraint on your work. And I think for me,

3:54:503:54:49

writing in both languages mainly is a form of self`censorship. Example,

3:54:503:54:49

if I write in Chinese in China, a certain subjects I would not want to

3:54:503:54:49

write, a great deal. Like what, for example? Like very hard`core

3:54:503:54:49

political subjects, sexuality for example. These are the things I love

3:54:503:54:49

to write, and I really... It was a great part of my life, and for my

3:54:503:54:49

family as well. So you self censor because of worries about what might

3:54:503:54:49

happen to you? Absolutely. You want to continue for your life and for

3:54:503:54:49

your family and friends around you. So that discussion on my other

3:54:503:54:49

novels, what is bigger. Life itself, as a huge universe. And I

3:54:503:54:49

think expression is another layer of your life, your reality, it is an

3:54:503:54:49

extension of reality. But I wouldn't use that to kill this one reality.

3:54:503:54:49

And it is true, and I am not passing any judgement, that it is difficult

3:54:503:54:49

for people to be outspoken. The person who won the peace prize in

3:54:503:54:49

2010 is now in prison, a prison sentence. He is a literary critic

3:54:503:54:49

and a writer, a human rights campaigner, he has paid the price

3:54:503:54:49

for speaking out. Do you think that you are perhaps a bit reticent?

3:54:503:54:49

Because even when you were 15, you talked about Tiananmen Square, you

3:54:503:54:49

wanted to join your brother to go on the process, and you had

3:54:503:54:49

revolutionary ideas, you wanted to protest, but people were too

3:54:503:54:49

scared. Do you still feel that that 15`year`old girl is still speaking

3:54:503:54:49

today, when you say look, I have to self censor, because I don't want to

3:54:503:54:49

endanger myself or my family back in China? Not so much, but more like

3:54:503:54:49

because my family was quite hard`core Communist family, so I

3:54:503:54:49

grew up a bit anarchic in a way, because my father was in a camp for

3:54:503:54:49

more than ten years. You should just explain why he was. Because he

3:54:503:54:49

wanted to paint landscapes like van Gogh, and he should have had lots of

3:54:503:54:49

peasants in them, and the authorities thought this was a bit

3:54:503:54:49

subversive, and therefore he was in and out, wasn't he, of Labour camps,

3:54:503:54:49

for the best part of two decades. Yes. And for my generation, in the

3:54:503:54:49

70s and 80s in China, ideological education, less strong, than in the

3:54:503:54:49

60s. So after the Cultural Revolution. So China, the door was

3:54:503:54:49

opening up. And I think I was a bit, really kind of having this anarchy

3:54:503:54:49

attitude towards political discussion, towards my father's

3:54:503:54:49

generation. And at that time, although I was young, 15 or 16, when

3:54:503:54:49

Tiananmen Square happened. I was also reading beat generation

3:54:503:54:49

columns. So that was a different path. So are very ideological

3:54:503:54:49

discussion, and opened the door to another layer of discussion, more

3:54:503:54:49

about individual freedom and self expression. You were quoted in a

3:54:503:54:49

British newspaper in May this year about Ruutu, and you said believed

3:54:503:54:49

that China would change, or at least they would be democratic elections.

3:54:503:54:49

`` Tiananmen Square. That is what you said about China then. Has China

3:54:503:54:49

changed in this past quarter of a century, and if so, do you think it

3:54:503:54:49

is for the better or for the worse? I think for that matter. I mean, in

3:54:503:54:49

a way now I live in the West, so people might they you don't know the

3:54:503:54:49

reality going on in China stop at the Chinese revolution is part of

3:54:503:54:49

the global abolition. From it used to be a feudal society to a

3:54:503:54:49

communist society. And then going towards a certain kind of state

3:54:503:54:49

capitalism society. But the Chinese, the democracy in China

3:54:503:54:49

would not be changed, inside the political struggle. It would be

3:54:503:54:49

demand to change radically from an ideological point of view, from an

3:54:503:54:49

environmental point of view. Because what is going on, the pollution

3:54:503:54:49

level in China, people's illness, and the poor quality of life, they

3:54:503:54:49

will demand radical change, in terms of democracy and transparency of

3:54:503:54:49

information. Food and the water we consume in the land. So that is not

3:54:503:54:49

only China's problem. I think it is a shared, global problem. But you

3:54:503:54:49

are also on the record as saying that you lament the fact that China

3:54:503:54:49

has lost what could be described as Chinese identity, Chinese values, in

3:54:503:54:49

that they have taken on what you call American values, and there is

3:54:503:54:49

this feeling in China now, for instance a very successful online

3:54:503:54:49

campaign recently to take Starbucks coffee shop out of the century is

3:54:503:54:49

`old forbidden city. So how far are you worried that there is an erosion

3:54:503:54:49

of Chinese values and identity in favour of a more global identity? It

3:54:503:54:49

is very interesting. It is an interesting kind of discussion in

3:54:503:54:49

China, because the elite intellectual in Beijing suggest a

3:54:503:54:49

certain democracy not in the western format, but we call it a Confucian

3:54:503:54:49

democracy. But it will not be entirely useful. It was the modern

3:54:503:54:49

society, the family concept also changed. And you can't just go back

3:54:503:54:49

to the past. So, then they suggest that because China is not really

3:54:503:54:49

using the Russian model, or American model, or European model. China is

3:54:503:54:49

creating its own model, because of the unique last 50 years Communist

3:54:503:54:49

regime, that is also based on 2000 years of fuel, Confucian society. So

3:54:503:54:49

I think that's quite interesting, how ideology is slowly changing by a

3:54:503:54:49

pragmatic method in society, and from the leadership. But it's not

3:54:503:54:49

just globalisation that has dealt a blow to what you might describe as

3:54:503:54:49

traditional family values in China. We know historically the Chinese

3:54:503:54:49

family has been a very close`knit one, and great respect and deference

3:54:503:54:49

towards their elders. Because the one child policy introduced in 1979

3:54:503:54:49

means that you have a younger generation of Chinese people, worn

3:54:503:54:49

after them, who are by single children, and so obviously they get

3:54:503:54:49

lavish attention put on them from their families. Which means they do

3:54:503:54:49

adopt a more kind of individualistic kind of, you know, value, of the

3:54:503:54:49

kind we associate with the West rather than the east. So it is not

3:54:503:54:49

just globalisation, it is Chinese policy that is also responsible for

3:54:503:54:49

that. But again, I think that this great discussion about self, what is

3:54:503:54:49

self? And what is identity of self? Because in China it was a long time,

3:54:503:54:49

thousands of years of autocracy, and then they become kind of socialist

3:54:503:54:49

country, but the individual value wasn't encouraged at all, for so

3:54:503:54:49

long. And I think some individualism has certain kinds of freedoms. The

3:54:503:54:49

individual has to invent themselves from this very heavy controlled

3:54:503:54:49

baggage from the past, and from the family. And this is an interesting

3:54:503:54:49

moment. How the young individual express themselves to the Internet,

3:54:503:54:49

or art. And what do you think of the young in China today? Because you

3:54:503:54:49

have said that you have some questions about... I think in the

3:54:503:54:49

beginning, I thought, as a young generation in China, vary in

3:54:503:54:49

different, cold, distant, to the political discussion. You know, it

3:54:503:54:49

is very close to American youth, and to Weston youth. It is really very

3:54:503:54:49

sensitive, but not to the discussion of depth of culture and the

3:54:503:54:49

political identity. But again, I think that is a percent, because a

3:54:503:54:49

country has to go through that process in order to understand who

3:54:503:54:49

they are now and how they work. And give another five or ten years, we

3:54:503:54:49

will see. You know Chinese people now, by and large, are more sort of

3:54:503:54:49

plugged into the global economy and global culture and so on as we have

3:54:503:54:49

been discussing. And Daniel Griswold from the think`tank, the Cato

3:54:503:54:49

Institute, said an expanding middle class is experiencing for the first

3:54:503:54:49

time the independence of home ownership, travel abroad, and

3:54:503:54:49

cooperation with others in economic enterprise, free of government

3:54:503:54:49

control. That can only be good news for individual freedom in China. So

3:54:503:54:49

do you think that that kind of prosperity in the end will make a

3:54:503:54:49

democracy out of what is essentially a dictatorship? Well first, I'm not

3:54:503:54:49

sure if dictatorship is the right word. OK, democracy out of what we

3:54:503:54:49

have now, 1`party rule, authoritarianism. That's right, yes.

3:54:503:54:49

I'm not sure. A democratic society will be constructive from that, as I

3:54:503:54:49

said, early on, I think it will come out from the urgency of dealing with

3:54:503:54:49

environmental and pollution problems. Which is a large scale,

3:54:503:54:49

going on in China. You could see it the other way round. Greater

3:54:503:54:49

material comfort happening in China, 680 million people lived out of

3:54:503:54:49

poverty between 1981 and 2010, that as people become more prosperous it

3:54:503:54:49

will diminish their revolutionary fervour. Your brother protested in

3:54:503:54:49

Tiananmen Square, and is now an official painter for the government.

3:54:503:54:49

That's right. It interesting. It's a living museum. We couldn't pin down

3:54:503:54:49

what kind of political system going on in China, and what kind of

3:54:503:54:49

society it is now. Because it is kind of been squeezed in the last 20

3:54:503:54:49

years, all of this format of the political structure has been

3:54:503:54:49

squeezed in that very short time. So as I said, I think we should give

3:54:503:54:49

another ten years to see the model, how it evolves. Xiaolu Guo, thank

3:54:503:54:49

you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.

3:54:503:54:49

starting to look a little parched, I starting to look a little parched, I

3:54:503:54:49

suspect there will be some welcome water in the forecast over the next

3:54:503:54:49

few days. Not great news though if you've got outdoor activities. We

3:54:503:54:49

could actually see some wet weather today. Some of it quite heavy.

3:54:503:54:49

Across the extreme south`east. With plenty of

3:54:503:54:50

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS