Browse content similar to Xiaolu Guo. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
argument in a bar. Now, it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:00. | :00:16. | |
Welcome to the programme. It is the 25th anniversary this year of the | :00:17. | :00:18. | |
Tiananmen Square massacre in Beijing, which saw hundreds killed | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
and many more detained. One award`winning British`Chinese writer | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
and filmmaker was a teenager at the time. Decades earlier, during the | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
Cultural Revolution, Xiaolu Guo 's fisherman father had spent more than | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
ten years in correctional labour camps for painting a picture that | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
had angered the Chinese authorities. What should the role of the artist | :00:48. | :01:12. | |
or writer be in China today? Welcome to HARDtalk. You say that | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
art should have social responsibility. What do you mean by | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
that? It is about the power of the public intellectual and the role of | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
the political artist, especially for a writer and filmmaker like me | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
coming from the East and living in Western Europe. I think our | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
education keeps returning me to the subject of how literature and cinema | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
should communicate. And in this discussion in the west, it is | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
something a bit ambiguous because an artist should remain sober and | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
independent from ontological discussion. But in my case, I was | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
always there on the front. If you look at Charles Dickens, for | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
instance, he wrote about the urban middle class in England. But his | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
writing also had a social message. He was part of the contemporary | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
debate then about social reforms. There is a long and venerable | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
tradition of that kind of writing. Is that how you see yourself in that | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
genre? Not entirely because I think Charles Dickens is really... The | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
traditional drama, the narrative, is very tense. You really follow his | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
narrative thread. But I guess that for a writer like me coming from the | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
East, perhaps the drama part is quite light. There is so much in the | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
political background and the cultural message that is not easy to | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
transfer to the West. And when you use double language, bilingual | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
writing, sometimes I write in English and sometimes in Chinese, | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
there is a certain interpretation and I have to bridge this cultural | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
difference. It is quite complex for me. One of your characters in your | :02:59. | 3:54:49 | |
new book, I am China, which was timed to coincide with the 25th | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
anniversary of Tiananmen Square, has the story of a punk musician who | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
protested Tiananmen Square and then seeks asylum in the West. Do you | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
believe that Chinese writers like yourself should be a voice of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
protest when you say there is no art without political commitment? And | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
very connected to this punk minuted character `` musician character. | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
There is another woman in the book who believes life should be beyond | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
political struggle in life is bigger than everything else. His character | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is inspired from a kind of Asian political fighter combined with a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
kind of ironic colour, like Johnny Rotten, and there is a kind of... I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
wanted to discuss the punk movement and how much power punk really had | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
in history and did it work in history? Looking at it in general | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
terms or through your book, do you believe that the role of the Chinese | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
writer should be a voice of protest, should be a voice of dissent? The | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
acclaimed Chinese artist I way way has said, and of course, he has had | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
trouble with the authorities, he says: Chinese artist must absolutely | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
see it as their duty to dissent. Do you agree? I think I do agree that | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
artists should not live like a political martyr. An artist should | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
not give up their life for an ideological struggle. What is more | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
important is if you can remain as a sober artist and keep a distance | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
from the heated political engagement, you have much more space | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
later on to defend certain ideas. If you die on the spot, you are gone | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
and there is no more voice. When Mo Yan, the Chinese writer, received | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
the Nobel Prize in literature in 2011 and people criticise that | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
because many felt he was too close to the Chinese state, you defended | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
him. Yes. It was a great discussion at the time, when Mo Yan received | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
the prize after Liu Xiaobo received the peace prize earlier that year, I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
love his work and sometimes a Chinese state artist might not be as | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
good as those from a Western... You do not agree when he says Chinese | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
artists have a duty to dissent. I think there is a difference between | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
his `` because Mo Yan 's work is different and subtle and he will go | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
on for a long time because he will not live as a political martyr on | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
the square. He does things in a more humanistic way. His works are crazy | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
and surreal. Maybe it does not work in the year when certain issues come | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
out, but it does work later on. If you look at the fact that Mo Yan is | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
lionised and celebrated in China today by the state, by the ruling | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
party, he has become a multimillionaire and he is on the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
record as saying censorship in China is something akin to airport | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
security checks, which is to say, necessary, are you sure you really | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
want to... Just in general, the kind of view he represents, you say that | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is OK? I think that the writer cannot be defined by this. This | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
thing, the fame, the wealth. It is a superficial thing. Because that | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
comes after what he really is. And I think the work itself is a much more | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
serious demonstration of his soul, his spirit. And in a way, I think | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
that we are on a long journey to understand what is real Chinese art, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
what is real China. In China itself over the last 20, 50 years, is such | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
a complicated system. I just want to get a clear idea of where you stand | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
on this debate of whether you should be somebody who is a voice of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
protest and events `` dissent, whatever the consequences are, as Ai | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
Weiwei has said. He has been detained for many months and | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
harassed by the authorities and so on. There are those who have | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
criticised people like the writer Mo Yan, for not signing a petition | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
signed by 130 Nobel laureates including Desmond Tutu, calling for | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
the release of Liu Xiaobo, and he says he does not want to sign this, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
he does not see why he should. I think certain people being cornered | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
into their position and identity... The question of identity as to what | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
kind of writer or artist you are. That is a dubious discussion because | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
how do people live beyond your corner or identity because life | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
becomes unliveable. I take the idea of the Soviet system and a great | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
artist working under the Stalinist regime. I believe he was one of the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
best composure is in the whole world. `` composers. But he managed | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
to create his own kind of individualistic, sober, pure | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
thoughts into his music despite being under state command. I do not | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
see why these two cannot coexist. There is very little freedom of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
expression in China. One statistic: Reporters Without Borders says that | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
there are something like 70 citizens imprisoned at the moment and 30 | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
journalists. The kind of myriad things that the state does to try to | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
control the internet. You cannot talk about Tiananmen Square, Taiwan | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
and Tibet without incurring the wrath of the senses. There is a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
great deal of self`censorship at play for artists and writers working | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
in China. That is the point, that you cannot really be free to express | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
yourself as an artist or writer in China, given those constraints. I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
think yes and no. If you require the official version, your work has to | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
go to the official channels to be published and distributed for the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
masses. That is a problem. How many people you can reach through the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
official channels. But then, the undercurrent culture, the subculture | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is so strong. If you meet young people in Beijing and Shanghai, you | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
will be impressed at the energy underground in China. I would say | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
yes and no because I would say that there are different levels of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
censorship and living in the West, I keep saying that there is even | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
stronger commercial censorship in the West than the political | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
censorship in the East and that becomes an invisible censorship, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
where we believe we are free and living in a democratic country, but | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
then... What do you mean by commercial censorship? Only things | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
that are going to appeal to a wide market are published? That what is | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
published in countries like the UK is market`driven? You equate that | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
with censorship of the political kind that we see in China? We | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
presume that the free market is a neutral market, that there is not a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
domination from certain kinds of powers. But the free market is very | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
much dominated by an elite or corporations these days. This market | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is deleterious to alternative culture. It puts the mass culture | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
that consumers need on the first level, so the subculture, the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
undercurrent culture, remains underground and a subculture. And I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
think that market, the so`called free market, becomes a market that | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is not free. People publish on the internet if they do not get deals | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
with major publishers. You cannot really equate that kind of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
commercial pressure to have a successful book... But I think we | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
are not immune from the publicity, the propaganda machine, and that is | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
so strong. Many artists in China publish great stuff that I have | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
never heard of but the commercial propaganda is only focused on a few | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
big products. Including yours? You have written many successful books | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
in English and Chinese and won many successful awards and your work does | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
get published. Is kind of a struggle, the situation. It is a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
difficult task for writers these days. Briefly, to finish off this | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
thing about the role of the writer in China, how do you see the role of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
the writer, the Chinese writer? Really, if a writer can live beyond | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
national identity. I can only take myself as an example. When I lived | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
in China, I saw myself absolutely 100% as a Chinese writer, writing in | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
Mandarin speaking Chinese. But in the last 12 years, coming to Britain | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
and living in Western Europe, that has really enlarge the possibility | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
that... You can live in a multi` identity. I'm an Anglo Oriental | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
writer. The last ten years I have lived in Britain, I have written in | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
English but the subject is mostly China. Then again, is it so | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
important to have this national identity? Because that is imposed on | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
you. You cannot change that. I think it would be great if a writer could | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
live beyond national constraints and talk about the things beyond... You | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
say that you write about China but in English for the most part now and | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
your books are not freely available, the ones who have written | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
in Chinese, in China. Who do you see yourself... Who your audience? What | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is your mission? To explain China to a Western audience writing in | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
English? Because there are people like Mo Yan who say, I don't care | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
about global audiences and I only write in Chinese for a Chinese | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
audience. Hoodie right Anyone, east or west, with a similar | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
experience. So for the first few years, you will live here, and then | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
in Japan. Or elsewhere. We share this global environment. So you | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
don't have a clear audience. I'll tell you what an acclaimed writer | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
told HARDtalk in July this year. I am published in the West, and there | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is something that makes me very uncomfortable about that. The people | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
among whom I live, and grew up, had no access to my products. Does she | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
but I think it is a process. It is but I think it is a process. It is | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
not a static phase, people will never read your novel in other | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
countries, I think the translation and reintroduction back to your | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
native country can be in five years' time, or seven years' time. I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
don't think that a big constraint on your work. And I think for me, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
writing in both languages mainly is a form of self`censorship. Example, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
if I write in Chinese in China, a certain subjects I would not want to | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
write, a great deal. Like what, for example? Like very hard`core | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
political subjects, sexuality for example. These are the things I love | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
to write, and I really... It was a great part of my life, and for my | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
family as well. So you self censor because of worries about what might | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
happen to you? Absolutely. You want to continue for your life and for | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
your family and friends around you. So that discussion on my other | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
novels, what is bigger. Life itself, as a huge universe. And I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
think expression is another layer of your life, your reality, it is an | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
extension of reality. But I wouldn't use that to kill this one reality. | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
And it is true, and I am not passing any judgement, that it is difficult | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
for people to be outspoken. The person who won the peace prize in | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
2010 is now in prison, a prison sentence. He is a literary critic | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
and a writer, a human rights campaigner, he has paid the price | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
for speaking out. Do you think that you are perhaps a bit reticent? | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
Because even when you were 15, you talked about Tiananmen Square, you | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
wanted to join your brother to go on the process, and you had | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
revolutionary ideas, you wanted to protest, but people were too | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
scared. Do you still feel that that 15`year`old girl is still speaking | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
today, when you say look, I have to self censor, because I don't want to | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
endanger myself or my family back in China? Not so much, but more like | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
because my family was quite hard`core Communist family, so I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
grew up a bit anarchic in a way, because my father was in a camp for | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
more than ten years. You should just explain why he was. Because he | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
wanted to paint landscapes like van Gogh, and he should have had lots of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
peasants in them, and the authorities thought this was a bit | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
subversive, and therefore he was in and out, wasn't he, of Labour camps, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
for the best part of two decades. Yes. And for my generation, in the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
70s and 80s in China, ideological education, less strong, than in the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
60s. So after the Cultural Revolution. So China, the door was | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
opening up. And I think I was a bit, really kind of having this anarchy | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
attitude towards political discussion, towards my father's | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
generation. And at that time, although I was young, 15 or 16, when | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
Tiananmen Square happened. I was also reading beat generation | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
columns. So that was a different path. So are very ideological | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
discussion, and opened the door to another layer of discussion, more | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
about individual freedom and self expression. You were quoted in a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
British newspaper in May this year about Ruutu, and you said believed | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
that China would change, or at least they would be democratic elections. | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
`` Tiananmen Square. That is what you said about China then. Has China | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
changed in this past quarter of a century, and if so, do you think it | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is for the better or for the worse? I think for that matter. I mean, in | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
a way now I live in the West, so people might they you don't know the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
reality going on in China stop at the Chinese revolution is part of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
the global abolition. From it used to be a feudal society to a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
communist society. And then going towards a certain kind of state | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
capitalism society. But the Chinese, the democracy in China | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
would not be changed, inside the political struggle. It would be | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
demand to change radically from an ideological point of view, from an | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
environmental point of view. Because what is going on, the pollution | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
level in China, people's illness, and the poor quality of life, they | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
will demand radical change, in terms of democracy and transparency of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
information. Food and the water we consume in the land. So that is not | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
only China's problem. I think it is a shared, global problem. But you | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
are also on the record as saying that you lament the fact that China | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
has lost what could be described as Chinese identity, Chinese values, in | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
that they have taken on what you call American values, and there is | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
this feeling in China now, for instance a very successful online | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
campaign recently to take Starbucks coffee shop out of the century is | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
`old forbidden city. So how far are you worried that there is an erosion | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
of Chinese values and identity in favour of a more global identity? It | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is very interesting. It is an interesting kind of discussion in | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
China, because the elite intellectual in Beijing suggest a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
certain democracy not in the western format, but we call it a Confucian | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
democracy. But it will not be entirely useful. It was the modern | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
society, the family concept also changed. And you can't just go back | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
to the past. So, then they suggest that because China is not really | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
using the Russian model, or American model, or European model. China is | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
creating its own model, because of the unique last 50 years Communist | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
regime, that is also based on 2000 years of fuel, Confucian society. So | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
I think that's quite interesting, how ideology is slowly changing by a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
pragmatic method in society, and from the leadership. But it's not | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
just globalisation that has dealt a blow to what you might describe as | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
traditional family values in China. We know historically the Chinese | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
family has been a very close`knit one, and great respect and deference | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
towards their elders. Because the one child policy introduced in 1979 | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
means that you have a younger generation of Chinese people, worn | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
after them, who are by single children, and so obviously they get | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
lavish attention put on them from their families. Which means they do | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
adopt a more kind of individualistic kind of, you know, value, of the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
kind we associate with the West rather than the east. So it is not | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
just globalisation, it is Chinese policy that is also responsible for | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
that. But again, I think that this great discussion about self, what is | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
self? And what is identity of self? Because in China it was a long time, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
thousands of years of autocracy, and then they become kind of socialist | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
country, but the individual value wasn't encouraged at all, for so | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
long. And I think some individualism has certain kinds of freedoms. The | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
individual has to invent themselves from this very heavy controlled | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
baggage from the past, and from the family. And this is an interesting | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
moment. How the young individual express themselves to the Internet, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
or art. And what do you think of the young in China today? Because you | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
have said that you have some questions about... I think in the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
beginning, I thought, as a young generation in China, vary in | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
different, cold, distant, to the political discussion. You know, it | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
is very close to American youth, and to Weston youth. It is really very | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
sensitive, but not to the discussion of depth of culture and the | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
political identity. But again, I think that is a percent, because a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
country has to go through that process in order to understand who | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
they are now and how they work. And give another five or ten years, we | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
will see. You know Chinese people now, by and large, are more sort of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
plugged into the global economy and global culture and so on as we have | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
been discussing. And Daniel Griswold from the think`tank, the Cato | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
Institute, said an expanding middle class is experiencing for the first | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
time the independence of home ownership, travel abroad, and | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
cooperation with others in economic enterprise, free of government | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
control. That can only be good news for individual freedom in China. So | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
do you think that that kind of prosperity in the end will make a | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
democracy out of what is essentially a dictatorship? Well first, I'm not | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
sure if dictatorship is the right word. OK, democracy out of what we | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
have now, 1`party rule, authoritarianism. That's right, yes. | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
I'm not sure. A democratic society will be constructive from that, as I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
said, early on, I think it will come out from the urgency of dealing with | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
environmental and pollution problems. Which is a large scale, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
going on in China. You could see it the other way round. Greater | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
material comfort happening in China, 680 million people lived out of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
poverty between 1981 and 2010, that as people become more prosperous it | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
will diminish their revolutionary fervour. Your brother protested in | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
Tiananmen Square, and is now an official painter for the government. | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
That's right. It interesting. It's a living museum. We couldn't pin down | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
what kind of political system going on in China, and what kind of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
society it is now. Because it is kind of been squeezed in the last 20 | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
years, all of this format of the political structure has been | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
squeezed in that very short time. So as I said, I think we should give | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
another ten years to see the model, how it evolves. Xiaolu Guo, thank | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you. | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
starting to look a little parched, I starting to look a little parched, I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
suspect there will be some welcome water in the forecast over the next | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
few days. Not great news though if you've got outdoor activities. We | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
could actually see some wet weather today. Some of it quite heavy. | 3:54:50 | 3:54:49 | |
Across the extreme south`east. With plenty of | 3:54:50 | 3:54:50 |