Dr Mads Gilbert - Doctor and Activist HARDtalk

person was found dead and many others were severely dehydrated when

they were discovered on Saturday. Now on BBC News, it's time for

Hardtalk. The Hamas`Israel ceasefire has allowed the cost of the

offensive to be evaluated, both in terms of lives lost and to

facilities. Almost 2,000 people died, most of them civilians. My

guest today is Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor who has returned

from Gaza, where he works as a volunteer at Gaza's main hospital,

the Al`Shifa Hospital. He is also an outspoken activist at the heart of

the Palestinian cause. Does this interfere with his work as a medic

and a humanitarian? Welcome to the programme. Give us a

brief portrait of a typical 24`hour day at the hospital in Gaza over the

last few weeks? That should be given by one of the Palestinian doctors,

nurses or volunteers, not me. I will try to give you an impression. They

have been there the whole time. We could hear the bombs falling, we

could see more or less the direction of them, we could hear the

ambulances and the cars come running in, and then there would be a huge

caseload of mass casualties every time, coming in. 40 to 400 people.

Children, adults, women ` civilians all of them. Bleeding. Some of them

are seriously injured. Some of them are dying, actually. Some of them

only have small wounds. You have to sort them between injured and

critically injured. And then the senior surgeons have to find out

which patients need life`saving immediate surgery and this is

extremely demanding. You are literally trying to decide who to

help, who might live and who might die? Yes, because we do not have the

capacity to treat everybody and you have to choose those who have a

chance of surviving. And this hospital, along with the rest of the

healthcare system in Gaza, is suffering severely from the seven

years of siege and blockade. They block everything from drugs,

equipment, modern machinery, even trolleys and respirators to treat a

patient with. It is an extremely demanding situation. In a disaster

situation, you expect the hospitals to take care of this but in Gaza,

the hospitals are also disaster zones. You have just returned from

Gaza. You were preparing a report from the UNWRA. You talk about the

almost inhuman workload on the staff, the doctors, the nurses, the

ambulance drivers. Can you give us an idea of the pressure they are

under? They are in a double role because they are inhabitants of Gaza

and their homes are being bombed, their families are being injured and

killed and on top of that, they have not been paid for the last year due

to the dispute between the Israeli politics of... Not allowing the

Palestinians to pay these so`called Hamas` employed staff in the

healthcare system from 2006. So, they are working for nothing. For

the last three months, they have not had their salaries. And this is

extremely demanding. They are running triple shifts. They are

exhausted but they stand tall. They are extremely courageous, I would

say. They stand tall and they do not leave. And some of them, painfully

enough, have their own family members coming in. Brothers or

children, God forbid, dead or dying in some instances. All the time,

they are listening to the local radio to monitor where the bombs are

falling. A very high professional level. The Palestinians are known to

be well educated. So is the healthcare system. But what could

have been a state`of`the`art university hospital in Al`Shifa is a

very worn out and exhausted hospital today. Talking about

state`of`the`art, you are from Norway, the world's richest country.

You have worked there. How do you feel when you operate in these

depleted and difficult circumstances in Gaza when you know exactly what

you could do to help patients if you had the means? First of all, I feel

this dismay that I share with the Palestinians and many people that

all of this could have been avoided if the bombing had stopped and the

siege had been lifted. All of this is unnecessary suffering. The

killing, the death, the injuries. And I feel that this is not a

natural disaster, this is not an earthquake or a tsunami. This is all

planned and man`made, which makes it extremely difficult on an emotional

and moral level and also on a professional medical level to accept

all of the suffering. So many of them are children. One third of the

injured and killed are children. I have never seen so many injured and

dying children in my life and that alone is a huge emotional toll on

any medical system, let alone a system that is so drained of

resources. You have made a direct appeal to President Obama. You have

said: "Mr Obama, do you have a heart? I invite you to spend just

one night, one night with us in Al`Shifa Hospital and I'm convinced

100% that this would change history." What do you mean by that?

Of course Mr Obama has a heart. I think the distance between the sharp

end of the military solution of conflicts, the suffering on the

ground among civilian people like you and me, that distance has become

so far that politicians are never confronted with that amount of

suffering. But they are aware of what is going on. Mr Obama has said

he is deeply concerned about the risk of further escalation and the

loss of more innocent life. A US State Department spokesman Jen Psaki

has said of one Israeli shelling of the UN facility that they were

appalled by this disgraceful shelling. She said the suspicion

that militants were operating nearby does not justify strikes that put at

risk the lives of so many innocent civilians. Why do you feel that the

suffering you have described is not sufficiently acknowledged by

international leaders? That statement was from only one part of

the mouth. The other part was that we will support Israel with more

weapons and more money and the military support from the US to

Israel with weapons and money is at the base of this situation. It is a

very double`tongued statement. It is correct that these are gross

violations of international law and they should be stopped by the

international community and I think that as a doctor and as a humid

being, the Israeli impunity is a huge moral problem for the US in

particular. `` human. It is not just the US but the EU and the UN all say

that Israel has a right to self`defence and that if there are

rockets fired from Gaza into Israel, which terrorises the population

there and indeed a handful of civilians have died... The vast

majority of the 70, of course, were Israeli soldiers, but what the

Israelis say when civilian infrastructure

"Look, the militants operate from these civilian buildings." Can

be certain, for example, having worked at Al`Shifa Hospital, that

there were not militants operating from there? I have not been in every

corner of the hospital, but I have been there for many years and I have

not seen any militants in the hospital. I know that the

Palestinians know the rules of the war quite well. All this rhetoric

about Israel having the right to protect itself... When you are an

occupant and you are shooting at the occupied people, the occupied people

have a right to defend themselves. It is taking language hostage, also.

The core principles of international law are being turned around. I think

that the Palestinians, and I do not support Hamas or Fatah or any

faction, I support the Palestinian people and their right resist

occupation, like we did... `` right to resist. By firing rockets? They

have to use the weapons they see fit. By firing rockets? You think

that is OK for them to resist occupation in that way? I condemn

any targeting of civilian targets be it in Gaza or in Israel. There have

so far been killed almost 1,900 Palestinians and three civilian

Israelis. That says everything about the disproportionality of the use of

weapons. It is not the Palestinians who are killing the Israelis. It is

actually the Israelis who are killing Palestinians by the

thousands. The Israeli point is always, "We regret the loss of

civilian life but we have to target these militants who fire rockets at

us and they do use civilian infrastructure." The UN has itself

confirmed that UN schools were used by militants. Which I have

condemned, which everybody condemns. But that is not the big picture,

that is not the overall picture. One Israeli official says that

downstairs in your hospital, there is a Hamas command and control

centre, and that Hamas leaders are hiding there. No reporter is allowed

to go anywhere downstairs. They are only allowed to work upstairs, take

pictures of casualties, the pictures that Hamas wants them to take. We

heard that in 2009. It was used as a threat to get us out of the

hospital. We heard it in 2012 and now in 2014. If they have proof, why

do they not show the proof? These are only allegations and Israeli

intelligence is very efficient in showing photos and proof. So far, it

has not been shown. I have not seen with my own eyes armed militia in

the hospital where I work or any other hospital. The point is that

when you are living in Gaza and you are going to exercise your right to

resist occupation, from where will you do it? If Israel wants a pure

military fight, why don't they lift the siege and let the civilians flee

or leave Gaza? The point about Gaza is that nobody is allowed to leave

and it's such a condensed place. And during the last attack, 44% of the

territory was taken and declared as a security zone. And you pack 1.8

million people into that small space, there will always be a

vicinity of something which could be defined as civilian. That does not

mean, and I do not defend any action which is using the civilians, of

course. You have made your opinion very well`known. I want to put this

point to you that... Do you somehow blur the line between humanitarian

and political fields? You have been quoted as saying of the Gaza

situation: "My appeal is to not send bandages or syringes or medical

teams. The most important medical thing you can do is force Israel to

stop the bombing and lift the siege of Gaza." As a doctor, shouldn't you

be more concerned with treating your patients in the short term, in the

medium term, trying to get them better and leave the politics to

others? Medicine and politics are Siamese twins. Medicine and public

health are all about lifting the living conditions of people. Living

conditions are about water and food. Human security. It is about having

an education, a house and a life. That is about health. Everything in

Gaza that is threatening public health is concerned with the

occupation and the bombing and as a doctor, I have to not only treat but

I have to look at the prevention of what I'm treating. Prevention is

always better than cure, as we know, and the overall and overruling and

only causative factor of all the injuries we have seen in the

hospital is the Israeli bombing and the siege. I cannot... Be a doctor

without addressing the political preconditions for all the injuries

and suffering. You have made that point clear. You have said, "No

siege, no tunnels," and "no occupation, no rockets." That is

what you have said. That's a good slogan! Shimon Peres stepped down as

Israeli president last month. He said last week that the Israelis

withdrew from Gaza and handed over to the Palestinians a free and open

Gaza. They could have developed it for tourism, fishing, agriculture,

or tourism, he said. "We thought, why are you shooting at us?" So,

first of all, Gaza was free. There are no Jews living there. But what

happens when the settlers left? Who says there was no occupation? The

Israeli government has complete control of the airspace, the... But

no siege. There was no siege originally. The siege came in 2006.

When the Palestinian people in a duly organised democratic election,

the first in any Arab state by the way, which was actually asked to be

organised by the quartet of Russia, the UN, EU and the US... They

organised the election, Hamas won the election. They tried to make a

unified government. It was shot down. Then came the siege and it was

increased and increased and increased as a collective

punishment. But the point that Shimon Peres is making is that when

the Jewish settlers withdrew from Gaza and Gaza was left open and

there was not a siege imposed straightaway, instantly, it was

clear that the Palestinians in Gaza, at least some of them, the

militants, were not going to leave Israelis alone. I have to disagree

with him, the late president... Former president. He is still with

us. Former president, yes. Sorry. It was still full Israeli control with

the airspace, with the water, with the borders and with the electronic

space. The Palestinians in Gaza have never been... The occupation

remains. It was the siege, I was pointing out. So, why did the siege

come? It was a collective punishment because they elected somebody they

did not want. There are now efforts from the international community and

the UN does say that the siege has impoverished the people of Gaza and

they are working to see if it can be lifted as some kind of political

settlement. But what about the rockets? You say, "No occupation, no

rockets." But not all Palestinians want to fire rockets. President

Mahmoud Abbas said on Palestinian television in July, without

explicitly naming Hamas, "What are you trying to achieve by sending

rockets? We prefer to fight with wisdom and politics." The

Palestinians do not want rockets. I was in Beirut in 1982 as a medical

doctor during the Israeli invasion and siege and bombing of Beirut.

Then it was the PLO and Yasser Arafat who were the terrorists. They

were going to be killed. Like they are now going to kill the leadership

of Hamas and destroy all their structures. Like they wanted with

PLO in the 1980s. Anybody who opposes the grand plan of the

Israeli political government today, political Zionism, will be stamped

as a terrorist and sort of outlawed. The Palestinians have been under

strict, hard, brutal Israeli rule and oppression for the last 70

years. They have the right to defend themselves. With rockets? But the

point I'm making... With a slingshot. The Palestinians you're

talking about, you're talking about the militants. So when you say you

support the Palestinian cause, you are supporting the militant cause

and not the Palestinian cause. I tell you what else President Abbas

said. He called on all Palestinian factions to hold fire. He said, in

the interests of the Palestinian people and their security, and to

prevent giving Israel to have any pretext to continue its aggression

on Gaza. Every time there is a ceasefire, like after 2012, the 2012

attack, the preconditions for the ceasefire were broken by the

Israelis. They did that in 2008 in November. It was a long lasting

ceasefire with nobody killed on either side. The following ceasefire

in 2012 was broken and the siege was not lifted. The Palestinians have

good reason to be very suspicious about these preconditions. They do

not include the simple ten points that they have now as preconditions

for a ceasefire. A 10`year ceasefire is to lift the siege, to open the

ports, open the borders and give people a normal life in Gaza. How

can I define which weapons the Palestinians should use to defend

themselves? This is a defence. That is up to them. I don't support any

militant faction or any aggressive action. That is not the point. The

point is that everything is turned upside down all the time. On the

ground, it is Israel who is attacking the Palestinians. Israel

says they are defending themselves. I know. That's the narrative of

Israel. There is another narrative. That is the narrative of the

occupied people, the Palestinian people. I, for one, have seen and

lived that narrative. I see why they are defending their women, their

children and their habitats and their communities. I am making the

point that if you say, no occupation, no rockets, there is a

vast number of mainstream Fatah faction that President Mahmoud Abbas

leads which actually says, don't fire the rockets in our name, number

one, we prefer peaceful means. And secondly, don't do that because it

gives Israel a pretext to continue their aggression on Gaza. Let me ask

you this, though, Dr Mads Gilbert, because you have worked with the

Palestinian health sector since 1981. For the last 17 years, you've

been visiting Gaza regularly, helping them build up their health

and infrastructure, helping with the training, the treating of people, as

you said, you worked with the Palestinians in refugee Camps,

hospitals, during the conflict when Israel was in Lebanon. Why is the

Palestinian cause so important to you when there is conflict and

suffering all over the world? Why is it the Palestinian one? I have been

working in Burma and Cambodia and Angola with different medical

projects in the same context of solidarity medicine. But once you

get to know the Palestinian cause and the Palestinian history, it

tends to affect you in a very personal and moral way. I think the

world is belied to when it comes to who is right and who is wrong. I

think that once you sit down and you really get into the history of these

dispossessed people and all the betrayal and suffering and attacks

and losses they have had, and the overall ruling bodies of the world,

the United States, EU, Israel, they're treating them in such an

inhumane way. The occupation is recognised. The occupied territories

are recognised as being occupied. It is recognised, but nobody is doing

anything with it. Nothing happens. It is getting worse and worse by the

day. Now I sense in Al`Shifa with my colleagues, a change of opinion. A

change of mental attitude. They say that they would rather die now than

to get another ceasefire that would cheat them and they would be pushed

further down in the mud. They don't want to live as slaves in their own

country. The perception that this is only Israel against Hamas is totally

wrong. This is Palestinian people more united than ever before. And

mind you, the coalition government now was the pretext for the attack

on Gaza. I think and many analysts think that latest war was nothing to

do with the rockets. It had to do with the fact that... Hamas and

Fatah had a new unity government, seven

years after 2006. Israel do not want a unified Palestine. That is

something that some Palestinians have said. Listening to you, Dr

Gilbert, it is clear that you are political activist, but does that

interfere with your work as a humanitarian as a medic? Take, for

instance, Medecins Sans Frontiers, they operate in so many difficult

situations all over the world, and what they said to HardTalk is that

they do routinely speak out about violations whenever we see them, but

we do not propose solutions or take an overt political position because

that could potentially cut them off from accessing vulnerable people in

certain areas. That kind of approach is very different from yours. They

have a point, don't they? Absolutely. Like the Red Cross and

IRCR, they want to be on both sides. That's fine. I'm not. I mean, I want

to make it totally clear, if I were ever exposed to an Israeli general

being injured or an Israeli soldier, of course that individual patient

would get exactly the same treatment as anybody else. That is ethically

clear. My decision is before that. I choose to go to Gaza and not to

Israel. I have respect for the Medecins Sans Frontieres and ICRC. I

have chosen another way of working. I think that the people fighting

against occupation and oppression, they need solidarity and more than

lip service. But you have paid a price, haven't you, for being

outspoken in the past? And it's something that I have to bring up.

What a lot of people know about you is that after the attacks in

September 11, 2001, you made some comments that you have since really

said that you no longer support. Just to remind you what you said at

the time about the September 11 attacks. You said, I am upset by the

terrorist attack, but I am at least as upset over the suffering that the

US has caused. It is in this context that 5,000 dead has been seen. If

the US government has a legitimate right to bomb and kill civilians in

Iraq, the oppressed have a moral right to attack the US. And you were

criticised for sounding as though you were condoning the September 11

attacks. You have paid a price for being outspoken. I have denounced

the interview four, five, six, seven times, and the content of it. I

denounce and I absolutely condemn any attack on civilian targets from

anybody. So that is totally clear. With the power distribution in the

world today, poor people, not only in Palestine but other parts of the

global south, they are suffering from a new colonial wave of

oppression, which is coming precisely from the United States.

They support the Israeli colonial project. I think we need to speak up

against that. Because at the end of the day, if we allow power to define

right, if we allow might to be the tool of solving conflicts, which are

just in its cause, then we are all degenerating the kind of organised

world that we try to create. Respect for international law, totally

omitted by Israel, respect for the UN Charter, totally omitted by

Israel, we need all of us to stand up against this degeneration of the

international order, I think. Dr Mads Gilbert, thank you for coming

on HardTalk. Good morning. The cold air is with

us at the moment. There is a giant over head however. `` sunshine. )

sunny weather around for most. Showers in fewer number than in the

past few days. High pressure to the west draws in chilly wind and it