Abdullah Abdullah - Afghan Presidential Candidate HARDtalk

in Ilminster in Somerset. That is it. You are up to date. Now

on BBC News, HARDtalk. Welcome to HardTalk. I'm Stephen

Sackur. Afghanistan's presidential election

was supposed to mark the country's progress, instead it threatens to

inflict new wounds. In case you have forgotten, the long drawn out

process appeared to deliver a second round victory to Ashraf Ghani, but

his rival Abdullah Abdullah alleged massive fraud and the vote count is

under review. The Americans are urging the two rivals to share

power. My guest is Abdullah Abdullah. Is he currently acting in

Afghanistan's interest or his own? Dr Abdullah Abdullah in Kabul,

welcome to HardTalk. Thank you, Stephen. Afghanistan, I think you

would agree, is in a dangerous form of political limbo right now. When

do you believe that limbo will end? Hopefully there are two processes. A

political one as well as a technical one, which is the audit which is

under way. That will be completed sooner rather than later. But I

don't think there is anybody who can tell you precisely how long it will

continue. But our goal is... We have agreed to a goal of putting an end

to it, hopefully, in two to three weeks' time. You say two to three

weeks' time. The initial talk was that by the end of this current

week, there could be a resolution. There could be an official audited

vote tally. Are you saying this is now going to stretch for several

weeks? It's a technical process which we can't call off. The purpose

of the audit is to have a thorough audit of all the papers throughout

the country. We have to have clean votes, clean legitimate results. If

it takes time, it is worthwhile, but we are not wasting any time. Myself

and my team have been collaborating and cooperating to help to speed it

up. There is not much we can do. As you say, the desired outcome is a

clean result, an undisputed election result. Can you tell me

categorically that whether it takes two weeks or three, when this

audited, official result comes out, you will accept it? I will accept

the outcome of a legitimate, transparent audit, categorically.

Once one enters into the process of election, he makes a commitment that

he will accept a legitimate outcome. Unless somebody is making trouble

for their own country. Let me stop you for a second. You have given me

quite a complicated answer to a very simple question. You have watched

the audit unfold. You have said you've cooperated with it. You know

how it is being done. Yes or no? Given the way that the audit has

gone, will you accept the result when it is announced? The audit is

halfway through the process. Every single day, we identify a problem

and we raise it with the UN, because this audit is internationally

supervised. They take care of it. It is in daily ways that we are

monitoring it, our agents are there, corrections are being made. But at

the same time, there is a commission involved that was involved in the

process of the elections earlier that was part of massive fraud. That

commission is still there. From time to time, we see problems there. What

I'm saying is that a legitimate and transparent audit was promised. If

it is delivered... So far there have been problems, but we have been very

patient in terms of trying to co`operate and find ways of

correction of the process. That is how it has gone so far. It is

halfway down the road at the moment. Half the way? Goodness me, that is

taking a long time, then, if you are only halfway through. The fact is, I

suppose, if any outside observer looked at this objectively, the

likelihood is, you are going to be the loser. The initial preliminary

result had Ashraf Ghani winning by one million votes pretty much out of

8.1 million votes cast. It is highly unlikely, is it not, that that sort

of victory for Ashraf Ghani is going to be overturned in a vote audit?

Once all the ballot papers have been audited, it means there are no

second round results, and the results which were announced were

not only disputed by me but by everybody else. They accepted that

it was a massively fraudulent announcement. That is why 23,000

ballot boxes are being audited. So forget about the initial results.

Think of the first round elections when there was another outcome out

of that. So don't make a judgement. Nobody is here to make a judgement

about it. The massive fraud has taken place. When I say industrial

scale fraud, it is not an exaggeration. On a daily basis, the

international observers are witnessing this. So in order to

recover the process, we accept that the internationally supervised

audit, which is under way and we have to wait for the results of it.

It just seems a little ironic that you are telling me and, indeed, the

whole world not to rush to judgement, when it was you who

rushed to judgement back on July eighth and said that you had won the

election and that only a massive vote rigged coup against the Afghan

people had deprived you of victory. So the person doing most of the

prejudging is you. The issue was the voter turnout, which was announced

as seven million at the beginning, and later on eight million, that was

much more than the first round results. By every account, everybody

involved in the elections, those who have watched it closely, they know

this was a massively exaggerated number by millions. So it was not

rocket science to look at it and to find out. We had agents throughout

the country. We have people who have supported us throughout the country.

There were reports of ballot boxes being stuffed one day before the

elections. There is documented proof of that. Many of your supporters and

allies have, again, indulged in forms of prejudging. I am thinking

of one of your key supporters, Attah Mohammed Noor. He is a former

militia leader, a former governor. He said on August 14, in his view,

there was no doubt you had won. He said if the vote count was also

fraudulent, he said, we will not bow down and accept this result. We will

have a big civil uprising and occupy government building and

institutions. We will not recognise the new government. Will you disown

his inflammatory words now? Apart from the details that Governor Attah

has gone through, what is the suggestion? It's a suggestion that

if it was fraudulent and it was proved to be fraudulent and

everybody accepts that, of course not. If I may interpret his words

for him, and he's not here to dispute it, it seems to me that what

he is saying is that unless you are declared the winner, which in his

view is the only right outcome, unless that happens, he says there

will be a big civil uprising. I just wonder if you are now prepared to

disown his words. Because it seems to me, those words are deeply

inflammatory. I would say that he has said, and I have heard the

interview first hand, that if the audit was one`sided, he said if it

was a show, if it was fraudulent, then we would not accept it. So I

don't think there is much to interpret it further. There is no

doubt that this time around it is critical that Afghanistan will not

have another chance, that the audit is carried out with the most care

and attention that is expected. The outcome of a thorough audit will be

accepted by all of us, not only myself. You have hedged and hedged

throughout this interview so far about whether the audit, in your

view, is going to deserve the credit of being fair, you are suggested to

me that if, in the end, you decide it is not fair, you with your allies

will call for a big civil uprising, the occupying of government

buildings and institutions. You think that would be the right

strategy, do you? I will not go through those details, as I have

told you. Our hope is that now the whole world, the international

community has mobilised a lot of resources. There are hundreds of

observers in place. There are also challenges. We hope that we will be

able to overcome those challenges. Then we have the outcome of the

audit that is legitimate and transparent and acceptable to all.

How can I put this diplomatically? You have been rapped over the

knuckles, haven't you, by President Barack Obama? I believe he made a

direct phone call to you, which according to the US Ambassador to

Afghanistan included the caution that you mustn't move pre`emptively

in an unconstitutional fashion. What is it like to be rebuked by the

United States President? Did you take it seriously? The issue was

Afghanistan was on the verge of a crisis, a serious crisis, because

the electoral process was not working. And the people were asking

for demonstrations, and there were peaceful demonstrations as well.

There were strikes. People stayed in tents for many days. The situation

became serious by the hour. Then I received a call from the Secretary

of State John Kerry. Then later a phone call from President Obama. Of

course they promised that they recognised that there was massive

fraud and there was a need for a correction of the process and also

for a thorough audit, and they promised that audit would take place

in order to clean the results of the elections. And that was the message

that I received. At the same time, they said Afghanistan was in need of

unity. They encourage the idea of the formation of a national unity

government. Those details came out later on during our meetings with

Secretary Kerry, which we also considered in our interests, and it

was a timely intervention, and we welcomed it. Let's talk more about

that. You and Ashraf Ghani, the rivals,

you both agreed to sign what was described as a power`sharing

agreement. There seem to be a commitment that whoever won would

agree to work with the loser, and appoint that man to a new post of

chief executive, and there would be a dual power arrangement. Can you

commit to that? We are committed to a political agreement, to be

framework of a political agreement, which was agreed upon by both of us

a few weeks ago. It was reinforced once again by the joint communique,

which we signed a few days ago, and our teams are working together. So,

to be absolutely clear for everyone around the world, if you are,

ultimately, declared the winner, Ashraf Ghani will be appointed chief

executive, and you will share power with him? Absolutely. That is

between the two teams, and the agreement is not finalised in all

its details, but that principle was agreed upon between us, and that is

what we are going to do. It seems to me that you and your team sometimes

suspect that the US is not acting as an honest broker. That the US wants

Ashraf Ghani to be the next President of Afghanistan. Is that

right? I have not made that claim. Had I had that idea... Do you feel

that is the case? Do you feel that the Washington establishment... Yes,

of course. You feel that the Washington establishment wants

Ashraf Ghani to be the next President? No, I don't think so.

Because I think they are an honest broker, I welcome their

intervention, and they have been trying to make the audit process

work, they have been encouraging the political process to work, and from

now onwards it is for us, as the Afghans, to see in the political

framework. It will work only with both sides, if both sides equally

want it to happen. That is based on the realisation of the need for

national unity post elections, post` announcement of the audit outcome,

in order for Afghanistan to be able to deal with the challenges we will

be faced with in the coming few years, and utilise the opportunities

which are there. In fact, it is based on the idea of a win`win

situation for all of us, as Afghans. You talk about the challenges, and

Afghanistan needing a leader who can deal with the massive challenges

facing the country. I think the Americans are particularly concerned

as well. They are concerned about the ongoing security challenge, and

the massive challenge of cleaning up Afghanistan's government. Of rooting

out the endemic corruption. Ashraf Ghani on both counts says, my hands

are clean, I have never been associated with warlordism, and I

have a record, not least as finance minister of Afghanistan, of standing

up to corruption. Can you credibly say the same thing, that you have a

record on both warlordism and corruption that would make you a

suitable president for Afghanistan? Proudly, incredibly so, I was part

of the resistance against the Soviet Union 30 years ago as a medical

doctor. I joined the resistance against the Soviet Union. The

occupation ended in Afghanistan, and I was part of the government and

part of the resistance against Taliban and terrorism in Al Qaeda in

Afghanistan. My hands, in working with the government, are as clean as

they could be. There is nothing that I will... There is nothing that will

make me be ashamed of my past, which is an association with national

resistance in Afghanistan. The shadow over you is that you have a

long association with a whole bunch of warlords from the Northern

Alliance and many associates who have backed your election campaign,

who have a long record of warlordism. Also, you have

associates who again have been associated with corruption inside

the government over the last decade or more. Are you sure your record

really stands up to scrutiny? The point is that this issue of

warlordism has been used as an excuse in many ways, and it is an

excuse in many ways, and it is misled notion in many ways. If you

call someone a warlord, I think it is a very misleading notion. Reading

the history of Afghanistan, I proudly say this. Because of that, I

had most votes in the first round of the elections, and people from

Afghanistan from all walks of life have supported me. From here, with

all due respect, I think some more education is needed in order to look

at the history of the country and then judge personalities based on

it. I am always ready for more education, but it seems to me there

is an interesting challenge facing the new leader of Afghanistan,

whoever he is, and that is how to end the endless war with the

Taliban. How to bring the conflict to a conclusion. If one looks at the

record you have with the Taliban, they regard you as an enemy. They

don't necessarily regard Ashraf Ghani in the same way, and if one is

to look for a leader who perhaps can end the conflict, draw the Taliban

into politics and into a negotiated settlement, it will probably be him,

not you. Who is the Taliban fighting against at this moment? President

Hamid Karzai and his government. And myself and Ashraf Ghani, we were

part of the government, and the Taliban started fighting against us.

In the end, the Taliban will have to make peace with the government of

Afghanistan who have been voted for by the people of Afghanistan, if

they want to achieve peace. What is your mindset right now about the

Taliban? Do you believe that they actually want to play a part in a

political process, to lay down the arms and play a political role, or

do you believe that their intentions are still military and they have to

be faced down by force by the Afghan government? My perception is, my

belief is, that unfortunately they believe that they can tackle the

government and bring the state down and replace it with their own remit,

their own interpretation of Islam, which Afghanistan's people have

experienced a few years ago. They are not, the majority of them have

not come to the conclusion that they have to lay down their arms and take

the path of peace. That does not suggest that a future Afghan

government shouldn't keep the door open for negotiations with the

Taliban, with the hope that... Ashraf Ghani has indicated he wants

to reach out. Do you want to reach out? If you are the next President

of Afghanistan, do you want to reach out to the Taliban and draw them

into a process? Absolutely. There needs to be a political process, but

whether it is, whoever is the leader of the country in the future will be

faced with the same problems that the current government faces.

Unfortunately, the fact that they believe, the Taliban believe, that

they can tackle the government, they can bring the state down and replace

it with their own Islamic State, that belief has made them continue

fighting in the path of violence rather than seizing the opportunity

for negotiations and peace and reconciliation. It is an

extraordinarily sensitive time in Afghanistan today. Can you guarantee

your people you will act in the country's best interests over the

coming weeks, not just your own? Absolutely. There is nothing more

than the interests of the people of Afghanistan or the interests of the

country, and this has been the driving force behind my effort. If

we are trying to clean out the results, the outcome of the

elections, that is also in the best interests of our people. Abdullah

Abdullah, we have to end there. Thank you for being on HARDtalk.

It looks like Wednesday will be a reasonably sunny day, and mostly

dry. There will be light winds and clear skies to take us into the

morning, which means it is chilly. We are looking at temperatures

around