Browse content similar to Len McCluskey, General Secretary, Unite the Union. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Sarah Montague. Britain's unions are in | :00:11. | :00:18. | |
the best and worst of times. They finally have the Labour leader of | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
their dreams. But at a time when their power is under threat as never | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
before. The government is introducing anti-strike laws that my | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
guest today thinks are so strict they will take the country back to | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
the 1930s. He is Len McCluskey, the leader of Britain's biggest union, | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
Unite. Is Labour's new leader their best and last hope? | :00:46. | :01:10. | |
Len McCluskey, welcome to hard top. Thank you. Have you finally got the | :01:11. | :01:20. | |
leader of your dreams? He is certainly a litre committed to the | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
type of vision and values that I have always believed in, and I think | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
millions of ordinary British people have believed in. We have got an | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
individual now lives full of conviction and has a different | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
message to tell to the one that we have had for so many years. The | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
anti-austerity position he is putting forward gives hope and | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
hopefully a better future for people to look at. Although the rules | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
changed on the way that Labour elected their leader, this is | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
somebody that you and other union leaders wanted? It was certainly the | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
individual in the Labour race that we first -- felt best accurately | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
reflected the views of our members. When he entered the race there was | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
an excitement, the likes of which I have never seen before in the Labour | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
Party. I think that was perhaps because people were getting a little | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
bit fed up with the dullness of what seemed to be on offer from | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
colleagues. Can you imagine him in Downing Street? Yes, I can. I know | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
that is a question the media continually put and Labour grandees | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
who say he has got no chance. We will wait and see. These same | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
individuals said he had no chance of winning a leadership election. The | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
reason they say that is because in large part because of polling. 42% | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
think the Labour Party should change their leader, according to a recent | :02:54. | :03:05. | |
poll. That means 58% do not. No, it was 31% who do not! The truth of the | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
matter is Jeremy has been in office just over seven weeks. For a period | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
running up to the result and seven weeks since he has been pilloried | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
and attacked from every quarter, from inside the Labour Party, from | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
the right-wing media, the establishment. So of course people | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
are being affected by that approach. My view is that a lot more people | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
are looking and thinking, maybe this straight talking, honest politics | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
has got something we like. Let me tell you this. Three recent | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
by-elections, local by-elections in Camberwell, Chorley and Banbury, | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
Labour won all three. Some won from the Conservatives and one in the | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
North were the Ukip vote collapsed as people came back to Labour. Let's | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
wait and see. He only got onto the ballot because some people who did | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
not ultimately vote for him put their names to get him involved in | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
the debate. He is there in part because of support from the unions. | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
He is there because he got 35 Labour MPs. The unions do not have a vote. | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
Many did not want him to be the leader. That is right. They wanted | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
him on the ballot paper because they felt a debate was needed. I commend | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
them for that. Some of them have regretted it. I commend them for | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
wanting a proper debate in the Labour Party. None of us could | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
foresee what the outcome would be. It was a tsunami of people wanting | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
to engage in something different. There are a number of issues where | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
people think he has got a problem. When he is polled on things, any | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
area apart from the NHS, he polls in negative territory when you consider | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
who is satisfied and who is not satisfied. Managing the economy, -27 | :05:06. | :05:14. | |
was his rating. Defence, -34. That should not come as a surprise. For | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
nearly three decades we have been getting told, day in, day out by the | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
media, there is no alternative. How many times have we heard that? | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
Suddenly both Jeremy and John McDonnell have come along and said, | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
actually, there is an alternative. It is the media's fault, they don't | :05:35. | :05:42. | |
reflect how the country feel? I am generalising here. Parts of the | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
media need to look very seriously at themselves. I believe that the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
moment they are being made to look rather absurd, especially the | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
right-wing media, with the constant attacks. He was criticised on | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
Remembrance Sunday because he was late for a VIP meeting. He was busy | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
shaking the hands of veterans. I know what the British public would | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
sooner he was doing. The reality is, do the media reflect the news or | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
created? The negativity surrounding him for months is bound to have an | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
impact on people. I say, let the British public decide. They are not | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
stupid. Give them time. Neither are Labour MPs. David Blunkett, a former | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
Home Secretary, voice is something that has been said many times. He | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
makes the point about the young people who have joined the party, | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
that you can forgive them. They have no meaningful recollection of the | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
politics of the 1980s. The same cannot be said for the zealots who | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
have re-emerged to capture the Labour Party. And take it back to a | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
bygone era. How sad. I remember when David was a young person full of | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
ideals. Perhaps he has lost those ideals. To attack young people | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
because they still have them is a reflection of what has happened to | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
people like David. Is the party going back to a time when, in his | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
view, it was not helpful? But the reality is, going back where? We are | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
talking about hundreds of thousands of people who had joined the Labour | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
Party, young people who are engaged in Labour Party politics in a way | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
they have never been before. The media constantly telling us that | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
young people are not interested in politics. What this has shown, young | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
people rejected the stereotype negative, all look the same, all | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
sound the same, of the Westminster bubble. What they see in Jeremy is | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
somebody with something different. That should be embraced. Should be | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
embraced by Peter Mandelson? He points out only 12% of his voters | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
were under 24. The bulk were retreaded old Labourites. It is a | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
good victory but let's put it in perspective. That is utter nonsense. | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
I seen his interview with HARDtalk and it was full of inaccuracies. It | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
was full of bitterness, quite well hidden bitterness, because the | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
ideals he represented have now been rejected by the Labour Party. | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
Remember Liz Kendall could have been seen as the standard-bearer for what | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
Lord Mandelson stored for, she got 4.5%. Jeremy got a mandate that no | :08:30. | :08:37. | |
other leader Peter has had before. -- Labour leader has had before. How | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
long has he got? There is no time limit. Bring me back two or three | :08:46. | :08:55. | |
years. We have elections in May next year for a local, London mayoral, | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
Scottish, Welsh. Yes, but the reality of next May, of course we | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
will all be looking to see how things develop. Scotland, it took | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
New Labour over a decade or more to lose Scotland, so to think Jeremy | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
will regain Scotland in a matter of months is unrealistic. What we need | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
to look at... Two to three years? Asked me that question then. I | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
believe he will still be in post them. God willing, his health is | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
fine. He has a mandate to lead us into the next election. His task is | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
to put together a cohesive programme that will appeal right across a | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
broad range. It is a very difficult task. The Tories into juicing | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
policies at the moment that will reduce the Labour MPs by another 25, | :09:48. | :09:56. | |
30. To win in 2020, Jeremy's challenges to win back the working | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
class of Scotland, to make certain that the Ukip threat are pushed | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
aside. And to win back the south and the Midlands. Is it even doable? It | :10:07. | :10:16. | |
is a huge task. Whoever was going to be the leader would face that task. | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
And to keep everybody in? Plenty fear they will be injected. I think | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
this is scare tactics by people who are simply not facing up to what has | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
happened. We are on a learning curve at the moment. I have been a member | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
of the Labour Party for 45 years. The moderates have to get with the | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
new programme? They have to recognise what has happened within a | :10:45. | :10:52. | |
run party. He has been in power seven weeks. Give him a little bit | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
longer! Let's move on to these big changes to when people can strike. | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
As a result of government proposals, at least # members of a union must | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
now vote to strike. That is a fair deal, isn't it? -- at least half of | :11:09. | :11:17. | |
the members in the union. I have written to the Prime Minister. He | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
has handed it over to the employment Secretary. I am meeting in this | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
Wednesday. What we have said to the Prime Minister, he has made it clear | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
in interviews on numerous occasions that his main concern in this bill, | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
even though the bill embraces a whole host of other very deeply | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
worrying thing is, his main concern is the low turnout at the industrial | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
action ballots. I agree with him on that. We have offered him a solution | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
to overcome that problem. We have said if you get rid of the archaic | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
method of postal ballots and you give us milder and online digital | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
and most importantly, secure independent workplace ballots, then | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
the 50% is not a problem for Unite. If you agree with him on the | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
thresholds, we have had any number of strikes that wouldn't have met | :12:13. | :12:20. | |
that? They do not meet it because of postal ballots. We do not know that, | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
do we? When there was a London bus strike in January, it was voted for | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
by 16% of people. You are right. That is a great example. When the | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
strike was called, 95% of our members came out on strike. That was | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
a mistake? Of course it wasn't. It is the law. You cannot say forget | :12:45. | :12:53. | |
about the law. It is the law that has caused it. You tell me, and if | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
you ever get a chance to speak to Sergei Davitt or the Prime Minister, | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
ask the question, what is the problem with having secure | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
independent workplace ballots? -- work -based ballots. Unions are | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
seeking recognition of the employer will not give recognition. The | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
Central arbitration committee organise a ballot of the workplace | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
and they utilise workplace ballots or a combination of workplace | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
ballots and online balloting. That has been going on for years. That | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
has been going on since 2001. There has never been a single complaint | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
about bullying or intimidation. We all know that the Business Minister, | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
when he was talking about the kind of voting you are talking about, he | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
said there were no practical solutions. Existing systems run | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
acceptably flawed. Why are they on acceptable? He was quoting the open | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
rights group. The reality is that his own government body, the Central | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
arbitration committee, currently utilise workplace ballots and online | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
ballots. You do not know what that voting system, a different voting | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
system, would have done to the vote in the recent London Underground | :14:20. | :14:27. | |
strike? I know it would have produced a much higher turnout. An | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
86% turnout as opposed to a 26% turnout. You cannot know what those | :14:32. | :14:40. | |
votes were? It does not matter. If 80% of our members vote not to go on | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
strike, that is fine. We have at any number of strikes recently which | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
were not fair. Was it fair to bring London to a halt? I am trying to | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
point out the weakness of the current system. Because it is postal | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
votes, historically always produces low turnouts. The Prime Minister has | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
said he is concerned about that. So am I. I have offered him a solution | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
to resolve that. And if he does not take it? If this bill does not go | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
through you have warned of consequences, what? I believe if the | :15:21. | :15:29. | |
Prime Minister does not take up my proposal, this bill is simply an | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
attack. He is being disingenuous. It is attempting to turn trade unions | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
into nothing more than advisory bodies who cannot support their | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
members. Could that be successful? You have talked about it being | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
rendered toothless. United is not going to see itself rendered | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
toothless. That is correct. We will not do that. You will be pushed | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
outside the law and you will break the law by doing what? We will | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
support our members. That means that if our members are engaged in strike | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
ballots, and it does not meet the 50% threshold... You will say | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
everybody out? That is the position our members will take. We will | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
support them. This is really important. That will lead to chaos | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
within our nation. I am appealing, even on your show now, to the Prime | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
Minister, do not do that to us. I have given you a solution to stop | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
that chaos from coming about, which everybody will see is fair and open. | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
Please, please, please pick up the olive branch I am offering. We are | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
talking about the influence you bear. One of the ways unions have | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
talked about how they may use their influence is in the EU referendum. | :16:57. | :17:03. | |
Can you imagine campaigning for the UK to leave the EU? I hope not. Is | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
it possible? Everybody has to look at it. Get me make this clear. Unite | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
is pro-Europe. We believe in the values of the business connections, | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
all of the major manufacturing companies that we deal with. Why | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
would you consider... Because there is always a balance. The trade union | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
movement has been a stall ward of the pro-union position for many | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
years but on the basis there was a balance. -- stole wort. The Prime | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
Minister is indicating, we will know shortly, what he is trying to | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
renegotiate. If he is successful on his own terms... In taking away more | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
worker rights? My union will reconsider its position. One of the | :18:00. | :18:08. | |
options must be that you are campaigning for the UK to leave? The | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
Prime Minister and more importantly, the CBI, need to take | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
this on board. The CBI are in favour of staying in Europe. They need to | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
tell the Prime Minister that there is no need for him to take away more | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
worker 's's writes. What is the logic of removing the UK from the | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
EU, where arguably would have less protection? That is an excellent | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
question. That view will be weighed in the ballot. You would be prepared | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
to cut your nose despite your face? I never said that. There are people | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
saying, even if workers rights are reduced in Europe, how would coming | :18:52. | :18:59. | |
out of Europe help us? We will weigh the balance. It sounds like bluff. | :19:00. | :19:09. | |
It is not bluff. My appeal to the CBI is stop sitting on the fence, | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
tell the Prime Minister not to be attacking workers's writes in | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
Europe. Let's move to Trident. Unite and Labour in Scotland have voted to | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
scrap Britain's deterrent, Trident. That is not true, but carry on. How | :19:24. | :19:33. | |
is that not true? It puts you at odds with your union and the Labour | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
Party south of the border. What the Scottish Labour Party decided to | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
do, the policy they passed, was one that said the importance of our | :19:45. | :19:46. | |
members jobs within the industry was primary. That is Unite's policy. We | :19:47. | :19:55. | |
are pro-jobs. But ultimately they said they would be in favour of | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
getting rid of the deterrent. That would be different. It is | :20:01. | :20:08. | |
sequential. We say that nobody in their right mind, unless they are a | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
pro Trident, believes in nuclear weapons. We would all love to get | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
rid of all of them. Do you believe in a deterrent, which is a different | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
thing? In nuclear deterrent? No. A nuclear deterrent is something that | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
no sane person in the world would want. The argument is that it is a | :20:30. | :20:39. | |
deterrent. The argument is, it's about independent deterrence. Here | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
is the reality of the United position. We said that we are 100% | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
committed to defending our members's jobs and their | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
communities. The issue about diversification is something that | :20:57. | :20:58. | |
has been on the agenda for many years. Unfortunately, consecutive | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
governments have not treated diversification seriously. We are | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
talking about 13,000 jobs, according to the local MSPs. We will be | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
talking about more than that UK wise. Until you can replace those | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
jobs, do not get rid of Trident, is that what you were saying? We say | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
that any government interested in looking at diversification has to | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
prove to us first that they have serious guarantee high-paid, decent | :21:30. | :21:37. | |
paid jobs, to replace. To replace more than 13,000 jobs. That is | :21:38. | :21:46. | |
impossible, surely? It certainly seems that way. You wind up in a | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
position where you are supporting Trident? We are supporting our | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
members. We are pro-jobs and pro-community. We will for that | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
position. Whoever is in power, whoever is leader of the Labour | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
Party, whoever is Prime Minister. You will not even engage on the | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
issue of nuclear weapons? Unite's position is that we believe we are | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
signatories to the treaty of nonproliferation. We would like to | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
reduce nuclear weapons throughout the world. We believe that a | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
continuation of nuclear weapons damages President Obama. For as long | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
as we have got it, you will know that the head of the Armed Forces | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
says that it would worry him the thought that Jeremy Corbyn voiced, | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
that he would not use it in any circumstances, if that was | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
translated into power. Sir Christopher blunt, highly respected | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
Tory MP, put the general in his place. Military should keep out of | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
political decisions. Sir Christopher blunt was quite right in supporting | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn is asking if he has breached | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
constitutional principle. That is down to the powers that be. He has | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
definitely breached those principles and overstepped the line. I do not | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
know what the protocol is on that. The moment we allow the military to | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
enter into the political debate about what should happen to our | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
defences, we are in serious trouble. Can I come back to the question of | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
those thousands of jobs dependent on Trident. What would replace them? At | :23:32. | :23:39. | |
the moment, nothing. Therein lies the conundrum. We have been seeking | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
to have debates on diversification for a long time. The problem is we | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
do not run the country. Successive governments are not really | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
interested in engaging on that debate. The current debate -- the | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
current government certainly do not want to engage in the debate. The | :23:56. | :24:03. | |
likelihood is those contracts will be signed. In the meantime we will | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
defend the jobs of our members and their communities. Len McCluskey, | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
thank you for coming on hardtop. Thank you. -- HARDtalk. | :24:12. | :24:17. |