Saeb Erekat, secretary general, Palestine Liberation Organisation HARDtalk

Why are so many mostly young Palestinians intent on killing

Israeli Jews with whatever weapons they can lay their hands on?

The Israeli government blames the surge in violence on

hate-fuelled incitement sanctioned by the Palestinian authorities.

The Palestinians say it is a response to the intolerable

My guest today is the veteran Palestinian negotiator and secretary

Is a new wave of extremism sweeping the West Bank and Gaza?

Saeb Erekat in Ramallah, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you, Stephen. According to the Israelis, more than 40 Palestinians

have been killed while in the process of committing attacks, acts

of violence, on Israeli Jewish people. They, the Israelis, call

them terrorists. What do you call these attackers? I call them dead

Palestinians who lost hope, but Netanyahu told as young Palestinians

that a Palestinian state would not be on his watch, not in his time,

that he would deprive them of their future, that he would deprive them

of any security for their jobs, for their lives, that they would remain

under his occupation. And so despair has remained under once you take the

hope outside of the minds of people, what did you expect? I think that

Netanyahu should look in the mirror. We will talk about those

policies but I do want to focus for a moment on the Palestinians who are

committing these acts and the reaction of Palestinian society to

those people. There are many officials inside the Palestinian

Authority who have used the word heroes and martyrs about those

young, mostly young people, who have been wielding the knives and other

weapons as well. Do you use those words? Heroes and martyrs? Well,

these are our sons and grandsons and I really could care less what you

want to call them or not, Stephen. But it matters. Surely, it matters

what you call them. No, what matters is why such people do such things.

Who took the hope from their minds? Who is telling them in Israel that

they have no hope and no future whatsoever? You know, Stephen, I

don't condone violence and the killing of civilians, be they

Israelis or Palestinians. We have tried for 20 years to achieve

peace. We have tried for 20 years to restore Hope in the minds of

Palestinians and Israelis. And then came this Israeli government,

Stephen, that destroyed the possibility of a two-state solution

and destroy hope in the minds of Palestinians. In fact, we have an

Israeli Prime Minister who is so proud of telling Palestinians that

your state is not on my watch, not in my time. The question is,

Stephen, what if your sons were under the Israeli occupation? What

if they were deprived of the right web jobs, dignity, a future like you

and your sons? What would they do? What would they do? That is the

question. This occupation is the source of evil. This occupation is

the source of desperation. I condemn the continuation of this occupation

and I contend those who support this occupation because at the end of the

day, we're Palestinians killed, we have Israelis killed, and the only

answer to these killing fields out there is not more violence but to

provide for a solution of a Palestinian state to live

side-by-side with the state of Israel in peace and security. That

is the only answer. Understood. Your condemnation of the occupation is on

the record. And you are just said to me that the only long-term solution

has to be Israel and the Palestinian state living side-by-side. If you

are serious about that, you have to surely address the Western right now

of incitement. -- question. Because the Israeli public believe that the

Palestinian Authority and certainly Hamas in Gaza as well are allowing

and creating an atmosphere where incitement thrives. You will know

better than I that just a few days ago, the Israeli UN Ambassador stood

up at the UN and brandished an instructional card that he said was

circulating in Palestinian schools, which had a diagram and a title how

to start -- stab a Jewish person. How can that happen? I'm not saying

that we are free of incitement. I'm not saying that we are doing

everything in accordance with what we want to do. But Stephen, you had

last week the Prime Minister of Israel absolving Adolf Hitler and

blaming the genocide and the Holocaust and the most evil chapter

of human history which took place at the hands of the Nazis on the

Palestinians, which meant that this kind of incitement, he is telling

Israelis, their Prime Minister, he is telling Israelis that you should

hate Palestinians more than Nazis. Is the Israeli settlers two months

ago who burned the family of the 18 months toddler, you talk about this

wave of violence... 74 Palestinians were killed and 2200 Palestinians,

they were wounded. Homes are being demolished. People are being

ethnically cleansed from their homes. People are losing their

security and their lives. This is our situation. This is how we live,

Stephen. It is my job to... I'm not saying that we don't... It is my job

to challenge senior Israeli politicians, as I have been doing,

on many of the issues that you have just raised but by W is not to talk

about what the Israelis are doing, because maybe many of my audience

can guess what you think about that, my job with you is to

challenge you on what the Palestinians are doing. And so I

returned to the question of wide TV and radio stations in Palestinian

territories are appearing to encourage these stabbing attacks and

hailing as heroes those who carry out these attacks? If the

Palestinian Authority is to mean anything, you surely have to control

the incitement. OK... I told you, Stephen, we're not perfect. There

may be some incitement. You are telling me that Palestinian TV and

Israel TV and Palestine radio... These are our sons and our grandsons

and we want them to live and have a future. I don't want my son to die,

I want him to live. I don't want my son to be a suicide bomber,

Stephen. But what using to challenge me with is that you want me to live

and you want my son to live and my grandson to live under occupation,

seeing his hope is taken away, seeing his future taken away, seeing

more settlements landed on what is supposed to be the Palestinian

state, seeing that there is no dignity and future for us, and you

want people to behave and say to the Israelis, oh, Masters! You are doing

a good job with the settlements and dictations and the killing fields

and using medical supplies and food supplies against the people of

Gaza. This is what happens here. But here is what I'm trying to get

at... Stephen, if it Israel is doing well being done by any country on

earth, believe me that no one would sleep in London or Washington or

Berlin or Rome. No one would allow it to happen. This silence of yours

in the West, this must stop. This tolerance to the Israeli occupation,

to the Israeli policies, to the Israeli war crimes being committed

against the Palestinian people, this should stop. But I tell you what. We

want to live. We want our grandchildren to live. I hear that,

but... No farther, no mother wants to bury their children. They love

them as much as you love your children. But I'm trying to look at

the... This is the situation. I'm trying to look at the... I was 12

years old when the Israeli occupation happened. In Jericho. I'm

60 years old today. Let me get a word in. I have grandchildren. This

must stop. Let me get a word in, if I may stop it does not really matter

whether you think that I'm demanding you condemn things or not. What I

say does not really matter but what matters a lot is how the

international community is currently regarding the Palestinians. Angela

Merkel just the other day said: The Palestinians must condemn everything

that constitutes support of terrorism. This is a key player in

the international community, somebody that you want on your side.

It is nothing to do with me. People like Angela Merkel want to hear

clear condemnation and resultant action from your Palestinian

Authority to ensure that you are seen to be combating incitement.

Well, I'm sure that Angela Merkel, who I have met many times and who I

had the greatest respect for, she knows as well as you do, Stephen, as

much as Mr Cameron, Mr Obama, Mr Harman, they all know that we

recognise the right of Israel to exist in peace and prosperity along

the lines of the 19th seven agreement. And she knows that the

side that is obstructing the two-state solution and that is

dictating more settlements and more dictations and more killing fields

and what humiliation to the Alice Unions are the Israelis. I think

that she should condemn the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin

Netanyahu. We are defending ourselves while Israel is defending

its occupation, while Israel is defending its settlement. Israel is

not defending itself, Stephen. This is the message from me to all those

who have some conscience, some values. We are defending our way of

life. We are defending our children. We don't want them to

die. And as I said, I don't condone the killing of civilians, whether

they are Israelis or Palestinians, but we need to get to the source of

this situation. Let me ask you a few questions or else it won't be an

interview. You say that the worst is still to come but it seems that

right now, in the territories, yet again, Hamas is driving the agenda

now. Talk to any analyst of Palestinian politics and they will

say that the current surge in violence is yet again playing into

the political agenda of Hamas. You know, Stephen, what is happening out

there is very deep. I challenge any Palestinian, any political party, to

say that we are organising what is happening outside. Things are

slipping outside our hands. I'm not saying you are, I'm saying Hamas.

Believe me... If you look at what is coming out of the mosques, if you

listen to the Hamas political leadership, they violence to

increase. Lazy political gain in turning this into what they call the

intifada of knives. -- they see. Turning it into a full-scale

intifada. Well, once again, Stephen, what is going out there is

a very deep thing. It is a new development. I have never seen such

developments before. All I'm telling you is that Palestinians are giving

up on me and people like me and people who promised them 20 years

ago. I told my people that we would stop violence and we would not use

any act of violence, that we recognised the state of Israel and

we would get independence through negotiations, and they believed us.

They gave us all the time in the world. For 23 years! What they're

telling me now is that we have 200,000 settlers in 1993. Today, we

have 600,000 settlers. That is the result of your peace process. That

is your negotiation. Which is precisely... That is what is going

on out there. Hang on. I have to stop you... The only way. The only

way... If I may finish, the only way to begin a DS can of the conflict is

to restore Hope in the minds of Palestinians. What you are saying to

me is both very interesting and very frank and full of passion and I hear

that passion but what you essentially saying to me is that you

and Mahmoud Abbas and others lost, that Oslo is dead, that the

two-state solution in the minds of most Palestinians has died. Is that

it? Stephen, it breaks my heart to say

yes. You know what? 23 years ago, President Mahmoud Abbas, myself and

many others told Palestinians please do not despair, you are not alone.

We have to renounce violence, we have to stop using violence. We have

to use negotiations as the tool. And what have I delivered to these

people, 22 years later? As I told you, people see with our eyes.

600,000 settlers. And there is supposed to be a Palestinian state.

Benjamin Netanyahu has managed to succeed in destroying people like

me, and making people like me, the moderates, the people who recognise

the state of Israel, the people who want to live and let live, the

people who want to save the lives of Israelis and Palestinians, yes, he

won over us. He defeated us. He won with his camp of those who don't see

us, and refuse to see us, and they only see their occupation, their

settlements, dedication. And they believe that if they ignore facts,

it could be as if it doesn't exist. What exist today is that Mr

Netanyahu, I hope you are listening to me. Look in my eyes. Walk me

through the day after you managed to destroy the two state solution. You

managed to destroy hope. Does this bring you security or peace? Does

this bring you and the Palestinians peace and security? What have you

done? Where have you taken us, and to those... Only Netanyahu can

answer those questions directly and I hope to have the opportunity to

put those questions to him. What I need to ask you, is given what you

have just said to me, what are you going to do? You're not going to

walk away. You spent 23 years on this and you've never walked away.

So I assume you're never going to walk away now. Mahmoud Abbas is 80

years old. You are appreciably younger. There is a question of

where the Palestinian leadership goes from here. I have just looked

at a poll done by one of the most respected Palestinian polling

organisations. Nearly two thirds of Palestinians want Mahmoud Abbas to

resign. They do feel he has had his day. So watch the Palestinians do

now? Are you interested in taking over the leadership if not you,

who? Because Palestine surely need some new leadership. I think we have

a new leadership called the Israeli occupation. Mr Netanyahu restarted

and re-established his occupying forces, his occupying power. They

are all over. Stephen, I am 60. And as I said, Mahmoud Abbas is 80.

Those Palestinians who are 60 plus, we are 4% of the population. 94% of

the population are telling us what have you brought us? You're right,

you're right. I think it's time for us to take the decision. It's time

to invite Mr Netanyahu to take over because he is destroying the

Palestinian Authority, he is destroying the two state solution,

he is destroying hope. And then you begin the question of telling me,

why are these kids doing this? Why is this incitement? He destroyed

everything. He destroyed hope. Once you destroy the future of people,

once you destroy the future of young... Stephen, I have 26%

unemployment in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. I cannot compete

with Abubakar Albuquerque. The thug and horrible and evil, and he is

promising these disparate Arabs 70 virgins. I cannot afford the

promised a 1-bedroom apartment. I cannot find a job, because... That

is precisely Netanyahu's point. He says there is real evidence that

young Palestinians today are behaving in as radical and as

extreme fashion as so-called Islamic State -- Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. That

is why he plays upon this notion of extraordinarily dangerous terror

coming from your territories, and you are in essence saying, you know

what? That is Palestine's only option. No, I am not saying that,

Stephen. I told you the only option is peace. Nobody benefits more from

succeeding in peace more than Palestinians, and no one stands to

lose more in the absence of peace more than Palestinians. It is 74

Palestinians, young people, young, 13 to 20, have been killed. More

than 2000 wounded, mostly maimed for ever. No one stands to lose more in

the absence of peace more than us. And that is the truth, Stephen. What

I am saying to Mr Netanyahu. Why now? You destroyed hope, you destroy

the two state solution, you made more new settlements than any other

Prime Minister of Israel. So, can you walk me through the day after?

You have made that point. We don't have much more time and you have

made that point. Do you see more peace and security and prosperity?

Is not in our DNA, he says that we want to kill and be killed and we

love violence. We don't want this. We want to live and let live. We

want to have good universities, good schools, good jobs, good prospects.

We want our children to be the musicians, the physicians, the

football players. He is destroying hope. And this occupation is the

source of evil. This occupation is the source. We have heard this point

from you many times. I need to ask you a couple more questions before

we finish, if I may. Preoccupation,... You can say the

same things many times but our audience would like to hear a

different question. This question is about the internationalisation of

the conflict. You personally have been a very, very keen advocate of

using the UN route. You have said you know what? The dialogue with the

Israelis isn't working. When our to leverage whatever influence we can

use at the United Nations and international community to this

thing forward. You have made one big effort at the UN Security Council to

try and get the council to put a stamp on the two state solution. The

Saudi Arab clan stamp on the two state solution. The

Saudi Arab plan I think was the basis of it. The Security Council

rejected it. You said you wanted to go back to the Security Council and

try that route all over again. When are you going to acknowledge that

that isn't going to work for you? The Security Council, the UN, they

are not ever going to give you what you want. Stephen, imagine if you

were to be my son. If you are to be my son. Who is 23 years old. And I

am telling you, I cannot get you independence through negotiations. I

cannot get a Security Council resolution guaranteeing the right to

statehood or the freedom. I cannot get you to go through... To get an

investigation committee from international human rights Council

to investigate what takes place on the ground. They cannot get you any

hope whatsoever that one day it you will be free. Stephen, what would

you do? What would you think? Because that is the real tragedy. I

will tell you what I would think. Let me answer your question. You

asked me a question. I told Palestinians, Stephen, Stephen,

please allow me to finish, please hear me. See me, hear me. I was

telling Palestinians, please don't despair, please don't use violence.

We are going to go to the Security Council and get a resolution for the

state. They closed the door on my face. We are going to go to the

international human rights Council in Geneva and get an investigation

committee. They close the doors in our face. We are going to get you a

State through negotiations and Netanyahu close the door in my face.

Well, you asked me what I would think. If you asked me that, what

would I say? I would say this to you. What I am going to be once

again is they that Netanyahu may succeed in destroying the two state

solution but four Palestinians and Israelis there is only one option.

If not this year, next year, in ten years' time. It is to live and let

live, it is a 2 state solution. It is Palestine to live side by side

with the State of Israel, along the 1967 lines. That is the only option.

I couldn't do it through the Security Council, I can do it

through negotiations, not because I failed, because I was foiled by the

likes of Bibi Netanyahu. I have interviewed you many times over many

years. I have never heard you this bleak, this negative, this

despairing. Is it all over for you? You know, if I answer you, if I

answer you in anyway I may cause more deaths. I just want to keep a

ray of hope. I just want to keep a ray of hope. Because the end of the

day violence will breed more violence. Violence is not the

answer. I know that the answer is for someone in the international

community to bring to the Security Council resolution reiterating the

two state solution within a specific time timeframe, within a specific

place, on the 1967 lines. Now, if people asked me, how come you

failed? I could not deliver, that is the truth. Now, do I leave, I am

thinking about it. I am seriously thinking about it, Stephen. I am

seriously thinking about it because there is much that I can take from

my own family, from my own neighbours. I look them in the eyes,

I was unable to deliver. And that is the truth. Saeb Erekat, thank you

for being on HARDtalk. We had real mixture of weather

in Scotland yesterday.