Frank Habineza, Leader, Democratic Green Party, Rwanda HARDtalk

Welcome to BBC's HARDTalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.

Today, I speak to Rwandan politician, Frank Habineza, who

founded the opposition Democratic Green Party of Rwanda in 2009.

He wants President Paul Kagame, who has been in power for more than

20 years, to stand down at the next presidential elections in 2017.

Rwanda is still in the process of recovering from the genocide

of the mid-1990s, and the government has been praised for

its success in alleviating poverty and bringing about reconciliation.

But, Habineza thinks it is time for a change and has been critical

What can he offer a nation that has been so scarred by tragedy?

Frank Habineza, thank you for joining us. Thank you. How much

support does your party, and in Rwanda? The support base is about 1

million. The population is about 12 million? We are building up

structures. We have structures in 15 districts in Rwanda. We are moving

forward. You are clearly an opposition party and you are allowed

to function in Rwanda. With a body that registers political parties,

they said they have no problem with Frank Habineza and his party, it is

his right to return home, because you are in exile, so long as it

fulfils the requirement. We are a multi-party state. Just take us back

to the reasons why you had to leave the country and why you have decided

it is now safe for you to go back and operate. First of all, we

launched the party in August 2009. The rough land and Patriotic Front?

-- Rwandan. We a part of the youth movement. You are part of the

community... I know you don't like the ethnic labels, but you were in

exile in Uganda at the time. Yesterday 1984. Anyway... -- yes,.

The first chairman of was me. -- of it. We wanted to be opposition, not

just to the opposition, but as an alternative. We saw that many

objectives if RPF had was to bring democracy. But when they had power

from 94 -2000, we wanted political power. They were forgetting some of

the issues like democracy. We did not have any political opposition

and so won. You formed the democratic Green Party. -- so on.

And before, the candidate was found dead, decapitated, you went to the

morgue and identified his body. He off. Venue fled to Sweden for your

safety. -- then you. -- yes. Yeah, he was physically beaten by people.

We asked for ammunition and could not get them. We tried from 2009...

It was difficult stop the we had death threats. -- difficult. We were

all very scared. So you left. So I have to ask you, you are back in

Rwanda three years later. You have your party. You speak openly and are

doing busy did you. Yeah. You are not scared for your life any more.

-- doing this interview. We get threats sometimes. But we are trying

to do everything by the law and the respect law so we avoid things that

can lead to conflict and armed conflict. We are trying to do

politics... You feel safe now? Not 100%. In October I had some issues.

In November, I had some issues, myself. But not death threats. But

threats. You feel you can... The national organisation secretary is

missing since last year, he went missing in the town... We took this

issue to the police, even to the minister of security, now we have

taken... One year now we have not seen him. You are still claiming

there is harassment against you? Yeah. But... We have had threats...

What did they they jeer? We asked the minister of justice... -- they

say. There is political realism in Rwanda. There are two -3 parties

elected. -- pluralism. We know that the Parliament have 64% women. There

is a national dialogue that allows the governed to engage with the

governors. That has been praised by a UN official, Carlos Lopez. The

government would argue their ears space for democratic activity. --

there is. Did is the main message we have been saying to the government.

We need them to open up a wider spectrum for everyone to

participate. -- This is. The parties that have been in the argument...

There were negotiations aimed to end the war between the former

government... The Social Democratic Party and the Labour Party... They

are the same parties that are in Parliament. -- Liberal. There are

still going on. We have not been new parties being active... But he will

be allowed to stand in the next parliamentary elections. -- we. If

we stand and when we will start counting and we will see change

coming. There is a lot of discussion about the continent of Africa and

Rwanda specifically on the issue of whether a resident or leader in

Africa should have more than two terms in office. -- president. In

Rwanda, the upper and lower house have now ratified in new

constitution that would allow a resident to run for a third term and

two further five-year term. -- president. Is the people vote for

this in the referendum, we don't have a date for it, then why not? --

terms. What if people wanted was much we have not been supporting

that change to the Constitution. We have gone to the Parliament in May

to see the Constitution should not be changed. Time limits are to stop

threats to our security. We need a transfer of power which we have not

seen in 100 years. Do you mean a party to another party or a

president to another president? Regardless of whether he runs or

not... Paul Kagame... I am talking about your piece open -- your

"peaceful transfer of power". Are you guessing the outcome of the

elections? People are saying... It already looks like that. 2017 is

going to be that. We... He hasn't said... Who has said the

Constitution will be changed for Paul Kagame to run again? Some

ministers study this campaign... They started saying they wanted him

to continue... In your view, will Paul Kagame run for a third term? He

has not let those. He even sent you that refers not to do so. -- not

said so. -- EGM said he prefers not to. When? Even last year he was

saying the last thing I said. When? He said it would have failed. That

is not the same thing as saying I will not run for a third term,

saying if I failed to find a successor... That is not tantamount

to saying... He is not entrusted... I can tell you what he has said. I

just want facts straight because you are making the claim. Paul Kagame

will run for a third term, you safe to be but he has actually said, in

an interview to a Ugandan journalist in June this year, there is no doubt

that at 1.I will be clear myself where I stand and what I and decides

to do. -- what I decide. -- at one point. He said he will decide

depending on the future of the country. Just clarifying, Paul

Kagame has not said he will definitely run... I said before, he

is not interested. He said that. But the move has been approved by The

Supreme Court. They said that the draft of the Constitution has been

approved by Parliament, paving the way for a referendum if the people

want it. Then it will be changed. 3.8 million people have petitioned

president Paul Kagame to indeed stand against the bite we are going

to run a campaign. -- again. For the last 100 years we have not in any

peace for the from one president to another. -- peaceful. You will

campaign? Yes. We will make it clear. We will do it legally. And,

if the referendum votes to allow Paul Kagame to run, you will accept

the outcome or would you challenge that? The public... If it is a free

and fair election, of course we will accept, it is democracy. But if it

is not we will not. That will depend on the outcome. We have had

elections, obviously. The last one in 2010 by a Commonwealth expert, he

said it was conducted in any good atmosphere and there was freedom of

movement and assembly and move restriction was acknowledged... The

Commonwealth expert also says there was no opposition party in that

election. Argued were full there will not be a peaceful transfer of

power? -- are you fearful. When the country gets into trouble... We saw

a Burkina Faso were the president had it backfire. That is different,

with Pierre Nkurunziza in Burundi, he has been criticised by the United

Nations for using inflammatory comments, whipping up ethnic

hatred... That is something that Paul Kagame has not done in Rwanda

where he actually claims we are all Rwandans. I want to make that point.

He has been in power for more than 20 years. People are forced to use

that means to remove the president sometimes. Let's stick with Rwanda.

Whatever happens, you will support the outcome of the referendum or you

are fearful that after the referendum it will trigger

violence. What are you saying? Well... If the elections are free

and fair, we will accept it. Of course, either party, we will have

candidacy... If we are satisfied... Of course, we will make some

demands. If we are satisfied we have a level playing field for the

elections in 2017... Will that be you? Most probably.

On to terms of a not bad, -- onto third terms, they are not bad in

themselves. Is the leader stays longer than ten years, they have

done everything. But there aren't rule had been in power for more than

ten years. I am doing everything they have done. Where the president

has been there and they are doing the same things, and there is more

corruption and so on. A country that has not seen a lot of corruption,

but we believe that when they become familiar with the president ...

Because of the horrible circumstances in Rwanda, butchering

each other because of the tribal background. Therefore, you should

make a special case for Rwanda for continuity. Outpoint as a party has

been that that we have been able to the ruling party as a party should

choose someone to stand, and that would create a level playing field,

because if we see at -- a president Mike Paul Kagame, it cannot be a

level playing field. Let us look at policy issues, because William

Wallace from the Financial Times says that President Paul -- Paul

Kagame's policies have been scarred. What would you do it to

make it even better Russian yellow the key to the concession is

actually democracy. We believe that if the people are more involved. To

have free speech, if political parties contribute, we believe that

they will speak up and we will be able to build up an economy

together. It's the economy is moving without a democracy then there will

be issue. The two must go hand in hand. You are bringing up a debate

again and there are things, for example, when things were said about

associating democracy with elections as a silver bullet. There were

looking at what Africans are most concerned about in 2012, and the

first was jobs, second infrastructure, third was economic

policies and forth was inequality. Based on that, you could say that

development, these matters are much more important than what you have

just raised, in the democratic space. We have a lot of development

here. What we went to democracy, everything turned around. What you

think about this poll say that these things are important? It is

important to have a good economy. But they need to go hand in hand.

You can't put more focus on economy, Dan democracy. We think

that they should go hand in hand. Even if you put the efforts, we have

income inequality. I think you have seen that report. They said that it

was the most unequal country in East Africa. Are you saying that the

applause that Rwanda has received, but there are so many other reports

that praise Rwanda is being one of the top success stories in terms of

development and progress on the African continent. Do you dispute

that? It is a fact. We are saying that all countries are not going at

the same pace. You see more happening in the capital, but there

are some small towns coming up, but in the Wirral areas is not yet

coming out. So the government is tackling inequality in the rule

areas? Basically, there are few people who have more than others.

What about figures from the World Bank that his praise Rwanda and its

remarkable development successes which has reduced poverty and

inequality, life expectancy has gone up from 55 in 2005 to 64 in 2013,

health spending has tripled between 1996 and 2013. You know, left right

and centre you get so many individuals and organisations, and

you talk about rule areas, that the global hunger index based on data

from the government and UN agencies, and the World Bank said

that in October this year, in absolute terms, Rwanda is one of

three African countries that recorded the biggest improvements in

meeting hunger levels, even though hunger levels up big concern still.

And so it is tackling inequality. We are not arguing that there has been

progress. We are saying that there has also been challenges. In 2015,

we had in one province, this was published, people had to move from

their area to another area because they had not enough food. What

policies would you have two improve lives for the people of Rwanda? We

would make sure that we produce more jobs from the rule areas, and

promote small businesses. We would reduce attacks on small businesses

to stop them from getting out of the country. Soap we would see that we

can promote the development of small businesses, green jobs as well.

Promoting a green economy and making sure that everyone involved, of

course, we will not without the bigger problems of administration.

There's a difference between what the government is doing and what the

government is saying. I try to find out what is different is. You watch

reduce defence spending, for instance. Is that a good idea when

you live in a tough neighbourhood? We want to put more on... I think

for defence for the country, we can't focus on having more guns, but

full security. We need good diplomatic relations. We can put

more effort into the soft security. You spoke about businessmen and

women leaving, but they jumped in the ease of doing business. You

can't be chasing a way that many businesses. We are attracting

foreign businesses, but there are businesses that have not been happy

with a taxation point. Bottom line is this. The president has delivered

both stability and economic benefits and security for the people, and

therefore, they are going to back whoever is running for the RPF, and

not you for the Democratic Green Party of Rwanda. They are going to

back RPF and not you. People are saying that they have seen that he

has been able to deliver. If there is no transfer of power, then there

will be no chance of young leaders getting into power. We are going to

see the same problems for another 20 or 30 years. The new targets ... But

you accept that about peace and stability question yellow we are

open to that and we are happy with that. But of course, if we create a

level playing field and another party gives a different parcel, --

persons. Then we will have it in the moment. Frank Habineza thank you for

coming in. They give -- thank you very much.

Tuesday was a day of contrasting fortunes across the British Isles.