On the Road in Colombia HARDtalk

Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk on the road from Columbia.

A country that has lived through 50 years of war and is desperately

looking for a path to a lasting peace. The struggle for Columbia's

future will be not settled in Bogota, but the rural areas, the

stronghold of the Farc. The president believes that the Farc has

been tamed. Many Colombians wonder, what if he is wrong. From the

Caribbean coast to the Amazon basin by way of the Andes Mountains. Much

of Columbia is hard to reach by road. But five decades of Rhyl a war

have spread suffering right across this land. -- guerrila. At the

height of their powers, the Farc have been making the roads a

nightmare. Hostagetaking, road blocks, they were grim facts of

life. But in recent years, the Farc have been pushed back into the

jungle. On this road, today, these are the only road blocks, run by the

Colombian army. This is a village of peasant farmers, if four Hour Drive

from the capital. -- hour drive. Spirits are high. There is hope that

they will not have to live with the fear, suspicion and violence

experienced by previous generations. Don is the patriarch of

this family. What do you feel about the peace

deal between the government and the Farc? Do you think it is a good

thing? Or does it make you nervous? Our presidents prompted a visit from

soldiers based nearby. These days, the Farc threat is much reduced, but

they still have uneasiness around strangers. The most ardent believer

in Columbia's peace process is the president. Last September, he flew

to Havana. Under the gaze of Raul Castro, he should be hand of the

leader of the Farc. -- shook the hand. It was an extraordinary

reaching out to a group who have waged war on the state for 50 years.

Columbia's armed Revolutionary front was formed in the mid- 60s. --

revolutionary. It was a bid to remove the elite and the almost

feudal distribution of land and 12. -- wealth. The struggle became a

dirty war that has claimed more than 200,000 lives. The government used

death squads and disappearances. Be used drug-trafficking to find 20,000

fighters. -- They. Now, their numbers have been reduced to just

6000, pushed back, and it into the jungle. -- deep into the jungle. But

their leader, Timoshenko, is defined. -- defiant.

The Western Hemisphere's last war is simmering, no longer boiling. Last

summer, the Farc declared a ceasefire, not their first, but

their most credible so far. The Colombian military has not yet

followed suit. The Farc ceasefire is holding, but it is fragile. The last

firefight that these guys had with them was just one month ago. So, if

the president does declare a formal ceasefire, he knows he is taking an

enormous stand. Columbia has a population of 46 million. It has a

growing economy, and fast untapped potential. -- vast. But 50 years of

war have cast a dark shadow. In the centre of Bogota, there are

reminders of people lost in atrocities. The government

classifies 7 million people as victims of conflict. I spoke to one

former captive held in the jungle for years. The only feeling that I

feel is that I lost exceeded of my life. -- six years. It is a very

difficult situation, right? Where their times where you were in Jane?

Get the. -- were there. For one month. -- in chains. We tried to

escape. Then they chained you. Yeah, it was a terrible experience because

we felt like animals. Did you, at any point in your captivity, think

he yourself, I will not get out of this, I will not get out of here. --

think to yourself. Many times. I tried to be strong, but it isn't

easy. The country is at a series moment. They are in a negotiation

with the movement, the Farc, who held it for six years. -- serious.

-- you. What they think about the government doing a deal with the

people who held you and tell six years of your life? -- took. -- What

do you think. When it comes to the peace process,

Colombians sort of want to have their cake and eat it too. Newspaper

opinion polls show that the clear majority of Colombians support the

peace talks. But at the same time, most Colombians say they do not want

to see Farc allowed into politics, especially not former military man

moving into a house next door. SPEAKING SPANISH.

The government already has a rehabilitation and reintegration

programme for former Farc guerillas. Thousands of fighters who

have deserted or announced their religions after capture go through a

six year-long programme of counselling, the education, and

training. -- reeducation. Reintegration remains a sensitive

subject. Queue former guerillas agreed to talk to me. -- two.

Do you believe that the leadership is serious about putting down its

weapons? SPANISH MUSIC. In the capital, many

still see the Farc as an enemy to be destroyed, not reintegrated. I was

invited to meet the man credited by many Colombians with healing the

Farc a series of blows. -- dealing. The former president. He has become

the most savage critic of his excess and would-be peacemaker, one -- Juan

Manuel Santos. He does not listen. It is important what you say to me.

No, no, I understood. I understood. I don't...

I don't understand. This is an important interview with the BBC,

where we want you to tell the world what you think about these peace

negotiations with the Farc. This is a platform for you to talk to the

world, not just President Santos. The relationship between the former

and current President is toxic. When I told Mr Ouribe I was also

seeing President Santos, he walked out of the interview, saying we

should speak to one of his party colleagues instead. What we feel is

that giving impunity to terror, giving political presentation to

terrorism, is giving political presentation to

terrorism, is not a good example for the future of Columbia. Do you

really believe that President Santos, former Defence Minister, a

former leader of the military operations against the Farc, is

cosying up to terrorism? He is because you cannot say that people

who kidnapped 7000 people in Colombia, people who took our towns

and blew them up with bombs, who put illegal blocks on the roads and

kidnapped people, that they can just take off the bloodstained clothes

and get into office. But you know the transitional justice

arrangements that appear to be agreed with the Farc involve trials,

they involve those who confess to crimes being allowed to have

alternatives to prison, maybe five years of house arrest or restricted

movement, and those who do not confess or tell the full truth will

go to prison, and those who are convicted against crimes -- of

crimes against humanity... That is impunity. You cannot say for Farc it

is the big deal to confess crimes. Everyone knew they did it. And then

to go free... That is not a good example for the future of Columbia.

What about all those young people who are in drug trafficking and

gangs? They will think that you can go into this crime business and in

the engine can negotiate with the state and have any about anything

you did. -- and then you can. Along the has been through a 50 year. More

than 200,000 people have died. You say that you want permanent war. I

don't want permanent war. I want law. It is about coherence. It is

about the future of Columbia. We're not saying that we want war

forever. We just want to let them know that this is not an extortion.

But the bottom line is you are very worried that you are losing this

argument. 70% or more of the Colombian public support the

negotiation and Santos's strategy. But 80% of people do not want Farc

to have political representation and 80% want them to go to jail. : 's

president is under enormous pressure but he seems at ease with himself.

-- the country's president. He believes he can change the course of

his country's history. It is much easier to make war. Much easier to

lead in times of war. To make peace, you have to have a different

type of leadership. You have to be able to convince people to change

their minds and their attitudes and ways of approaching the enemy, and

that is much more difficult. Tell me about that historic handshake with

the leader of the Farc, Tymoshenko, in Havana in September. It is a

matter of timing. I thought it would be the correct time to start meeting

face-to-face with the commander of the Farc, to start to try to push

negotiations at a higher level, which we are doing, and that it was

the correct moment to meet with him. Of course, he has been my enemy for

all my life and I have been his enemy for his life full of most

Colombians believe he has the blood of hundreds of thousands of

civilians on his hands. And you'd -- you shook his hand. Yes. You don't

make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies. He is

the enemy but if we want to end this war, we have to sit down with the

enemy, make an agreement and shake hands to seal that agreement. Your

former political boss, in some ways your mentor, he says, and I'm using

your words, that you have cosied up to terrorism. He says it is not

peace that is near but the render to the Farc. -- surrender. Who is

giving up their arms and who is keeping the arm is? -- arms? If you

read what is being negotiated, what we're simply accepting is they can

leave their weapons, disarm, and continue their political struggle

through legal means. That is what the peace process is all about. They

are being subjected to transitional justice. The most responsible will

go through transitional justice in order to respect the rights of the

victims, which is the centre of the solution of this conflict. But in

the former president's words, they are getting away with murder. If you

listen to what he is saying, you will come to the conclusion that he

is being a bit emotional. 220,000 people died in this war. It lasted

50 years. People are emotional. That is exactly why we are trying to

reach a peace agreement. So we don't have to have 220,000 more victims.

War is a factory of victims and I want to stop that factory. I wonder

on a personal level how you feel about the victims, those whose

parents were perhaps murdered, those who saw their on children waved out

of massacres in villages. -- wiped out. How do you explain to them that

you feel it is important to give the Farc dignity? The victims are my

strongest allies. The principal source of support I have has been

the victims. I talk to them every day. And talking to them is what

gives me more energy to continue, to persevere, with the peace process.

The big question for Colombians is how this plays out early next year.

You have said that you want a deal by the end of March 2016. We have

agreed with the Farc that by the 23rd of March we should sign a final

agreement. You have committed to what they call or referendum where

the final decision will be with the people of this nation. When will

that happen? That will happen after we signed the final agreement. If we

sign the final agreement around March, let us say, the plebiscite

will be done a couple of months afterwards. We need to have time to

explain to the people what the agreement is all about and the

people can say that they don't like it and then there will be no deal.

What? After all of this? Yes. The years and negotiations? Yes. You say

this is vital for the future of your nation and you tell me that if the

public vote against it you will walk away? Yes, because that was the

commitment I made since the very beginning. With respect, you would

have to resign at that point. I would be in serious difficulty but

I'm absolutely, instead that the overwhelming majority of Colombians

will support me and this peace process. You can funicular railway

up the mountainside on the east of Bogota to the century of

Montserrat. For Colombians, it is a place of pilgrimage. People here

have lived with conflict all of their lives. Now, they must decide

whether they can trust the Farc to be partners, not enemies. I have two

positions. On, I feel that no, I need to give the opportunity to them

because they are humans, they made mistakes in the past and they have

their reasons to commit their crimes and things. On the one level you are

prepared to forgive him. But what is the second feeling? Many people

suffered terrorist attacks, terrible things from these people, so they're

not prepared to... They're not prepared to forgive? No, they're

not. Do you think Columbia will remain very divided? Yes. For

example, my parents might think that they deserve another opportunity but

my grandmother and my teacher they deserve another opportunity but

my grandmother and my say no. : the may be emerging from decades of

darkness. -- Columbia may be emerging. But 50 years of war have

left a legacy of pain and hate. The wounds here that will take, many

years to heal.