Tokyo Sexwale, Fifa Presidential Candidate HARDtalk

Some fans, who'd camped for days to see the stars, were disappointed

as huge tents and seating blocked the view of those without tickets.

Welcome to HARDtalk two with the Napa Valley. -- HARDtalk. Our guest

is Tokyo Sexwale. He said 13 years in jail with Nelson Mandela in

Robben Island. Through interest in mining, business, he became one of

the richest black South Africans. He is among five candidates vying to

succeed Sepp Blatter, Fifa president. Can he reinvent himself

and win this top football post, or could pass controversies damage his

chances? -- past. Tokyo Sexwale, in Johannesburg,

welcome to HARDtalk. How can you hope to become Fifa president in

February when you don't even have the backing of the South African

football Players' Union? -- Football. Thank you for letting me

on your show. I have the backing of the association which is the main

one in South Africa. What you are referring to was corrected in a

statement they made in South Africa. It is unfortunate. Things have

turned around. I half the total backing of the South Africans will

all association. -- Football Association. -- I have the. That is

the point. They say that the problem is you have the backing of the

association. They don't like that. They say it is about footballers,

before the associations and the suits who run them for their

personal gain. Tokyo Sexwale, he is no different from those that support

him. They said that in November. Well... Let's put the whole question

in context. I am not a local candidate for the South African

Football Association. What you are referring to a local football

politics, petty politics. This is about a much more serious question

of where I play my role. For the last nine years I have been one of

the leaders of football in Fifa. That is where it is. The union here

are those individuals, those you are referring to... They are the

players. It was a statement issued... I understand... By the

union. It isn't just a local issue. The point they are making is that

football should not be for the managers, the players. My point is

the following, the union... That statement was issued by a few

disgruntled members who have since put in line... Been put on line by

senior members in South Africa. -- in. I am not a local candidate. I

have been a member of the far for nine years. That is where the

election is taking place. -- Fifa. We know all the controversies, the

investigations, allegations, about current and former Fifa executives

and their associates. People want to see somebody come in with a large

broom to sweep all this stuff behind Fifa. Argued the man to do that

when, arguably, you are very close to Sepp Blatter, the outgoing

president, for example, when it started, you said it was a shock.

These are friends, colleagues, people we have enjoyed World Cup

games with, and then as. -- dinners. Zeinab Badawi, you are less than

candid with the truth. These are friends, colleagues, I repeat, we

have been with them in World Cups and all sorts of places, but, if any

of them were doing nefarious things, then the law must take its own

costs. Check your records again. I will not run away from you, Zeinab

Badawi. I know you. If something has gone wrong and you are playing games

with us, the law will take its own course. That is what I am saying. We

are prepared to be that room. We are prepared, if I am the leader, to

make sure there is transparency and democracy. -- broom. Financial

accountability. Those are the things that have caused the problem... The

lack of them. I will not run away from people I know. Yes, I was close

to Sepp Blatter and all those... They are friends. I repeat again,

they are friends. However, if any of them has in less than candid with

the truth, the law will and must take its own course. -- Arseny

Yatsenyuk I did say... I will add that you have said these

investigations are good for the game. It is a legitimate question to

put to you, however, that, arguably, some see you as too close to the

former regime. Let me ask you this, Tokyo Sexwale is at the you said, if

I run Fifa I will roll up a sleeves. -- Sexwale. Will you get in

every now and again or moved his -- move to Zurich. You don't have to be

there all the time. Look at the reform. The president of Fifa must

have a very strong administration. From time to time you have to be

there at the headquarters to make sure things happen, however, if it

means I should move, I will. I have always stayed away from South

Africa, I was in jail for 15 years, I lived there, it isn't rocket

science for me. But I will spend quality time in Zurich and spent

time at home full-time -- from time to time. How transparent would you

be? Would you disclose your salary, for example, at Fifa? Not just

that. Also a wreath in Fifa must be disclosed. -- all salaries. We need

to do so. These things... It is a matter of international best

practice, not just my salary, everyone's. If we raise funds from

sponsors we need to tell them how we use them. It is important for

everybody. Speaking of sponsors, Tokyo Sexwale, you were critical of

the sponsors when they were pushing for the resignation of Sepp Blatter

and so on. You said this was not acceptable. Yet on the other hand,

you say that one of your policies you would bring in if you were Fifa

president is to allow corporate sponsorship on national teams

because shirts. At the moment, it is only a loud at club level. Isn't

that corporate sponsorship? -- allowed. Won't that be a more

prominent role? You are making me unhappy you are not quoting me

fully. (LAUGHING). I said, the sponsors are

wrong in calling for the resignation of a person because that gives them

unattended power of saying who the next president should be. Not just

what you said. -- unintended. They must sponsor activism and called for

the end of corruption and all these things. I am sure I am the only

candidate who calls for sponsor activism. What I am cautioning, is

that in calling for these things, the sponsors must not go as far as

saying so-and-so must go. That is too much power. I did not

misrepresent... I did not ... I simply... The sponsors have the

right to speak for the money. I am a businessman. When I sponsor I call

for records. But they should not go as far as saying so-and-so must go.

By the key points... Invariably it leads to unattended consequences. --

But the key point. -- unintended. But the annoyance is with

advertisements on national teams because shirts. Briefly, why do you

think that would be a good idea? -- teams'. That is a wonderful

question. Look at the national team. The Fifa policy of the clean T-shirt

does not exist. Teams are having logos of adidas... They are the...

All I am saying is that the time has come to discuss the possibility of

having other sponsors. Poor countries, they are excited to do

this, they will... Rich nations have their own problems. I said, look,

this is right. It is going to bring funds and more money into the less

than rich countries. Each should not be legislated. They are very

excited. You have served on the South Africa World Cup organising

committee. They hosted the World Cup in 2010, of course. There are still

unanswered questions about the million-dollar payment made to Fifa

at the time. Given those unanswered questions, and that you are part of

the committee, is it right that you put yourself forward as a candidate

to succeed Sepp Blatter? Well, there is nothing wrong with what happened

here in Africa. Here is the position. Let me clarify. Whose

money was it? It was donated by the government. Where did it go? It was

sent to the CONCACAF business. It was supposed to be for development.

The investigation must continue into whether it happened. Let's sort this

thing out. Where did the money go? It is not my money, it was money

coming from the government. It was given to people. But it went for

intended purpose is. That is why I back the investigation. -- purposes.

The FBI, whoever... I will go there next week to make sure that we have

answers to these things. The allegation that it was a bribe...

The allegation it was a bribe that the president at the time said was

absolutely not the case, that it was given to develop will bowl in the

Caribbean nations, part of the African diaster. -- football. That

is part of the investigation. -- diaspora. You categorically say this

was not part of a bribe from South Africa. I cannot say that. We did

not bribe anybody. We had Nelson Mandela... These are icons, Noble

laureates. Whoever gave this money... The question is, did it go

to where the projects were supposed to be? That is what the

investigation is supposed to be. We call on everybody to collaborate and

work with the FBI and everybody so we can know exactly what happened.

Bart, the law must take its own course. -- But. You say you are part

of these investigations. I want to go to your business career. There

are also ongoing investigations by the US and Swiss authorities... The

US authorities, sorry, in this regard, with a man not companies,

but, some people, some organisations you have had associations with. Can

you categorically say that you honestly feel that any of your

business interests, all your business interests, are completely

transparent. You have no case to answer. I will say, operating on the

London Stock Exchange, I don't get involved in these things. My

companies are categorically not involved in this. Person to me

carefully. Is any other Alcacer the... -- listen. -- if any of our

associates were found to conduct anything but seriously they must go

down. I have been to prison, I know. People must be brought forward and

that is it. My companies are clean. My companies are listed. They are

Rindt Johannesburg. They operate like anywhere else. -- they are in.

You accept that your businesses have attracted unfavourable press

coverage, especially in South Africa, The Mail and The Guardian

one of the few independent papers in South Africa, July 2014, they

reported that a company founded by you in 2008 before you returned to

government in 2009, might be drawn into investigation by US authorities

into a US hedge fund that was involved with your company in a

mining project in the Democratic Republic of Congo. You accept there

has been unfavourable press coverage?

It is not my press coverage. What I am saying, listen carefully, if any

of the companies I am involved in, if anyone has conducted themselves

in a variously, let them fall. -- nefariously. We have 10-15,000

people in oil, all of these things. If there are problems, when it comes

to attention, what do you do? I said to the executives, whatever you

want. What ever has happened, if anybody is found to have done

anything, they should go down. I am the first to say that. Unfavourable

or favourable, that is it. What is important is to stand up and assist

the process of investigation for things to be right. Let's talk about

FIFA. We have talked a lot about FIFA. The legal aspect aside, you

know there are many campaigning groups, Global Witness,

international and national groups, who say that when you look at the

natural resources in Africa, and you said obviously you are involved in

oil, mining, you name it, in the DRC, in Guinea, for instance, you

have known the President for a very long time, even before he became

president, that there is a feeling, as an analyst has said in South

Africa, that there is a kind of mercantile type of capitalism that

has impoverished the continent. And it doesn't look good when you see

deals being made, you know, mining deals and so on. People feel that

state resources perhaps are not being used for the benefit of the

population but to in rich couple of individuals. Are you concerned about

being involved in these deals? No, that's not the issue. Africa is

impoverished by the colonial world. We have been raped since 1881. It is

recorded by an number of organisations you have referred to.

The fact of the matter is, I am a business person, and I get involved

in Britain, in my continent, Russia, Canada. If anything has been done

that is wrong, let us investigate. If anything we are involved in

making sure the community is assisted, we help people in Africa.

We are transparent. That is why I am here. Tokyo Sexwale, I have moved on

from transparency. You are the son of a hospital clerk. You have a

modest background. You were a beneficiary of the economic

empowerment kind of drive in South Africa. As you know that is seen as

in reaching a couple of black South Africans. Some people have called it

crony capitalism. There is a difference between elite South

Africans as yourself and the masses who put them into power. You are an

incredibly wealthy man. My point is, you don't feel afflicted by a

guilty conscience in any way that you have amassed this wealth, when

so many black South Africans languish low down when it comes to

economic indicators? No, there is no guilt, because I am a leader, and I

assist. I don't just accumulate money. The law of South Africa

doesn't allow that. Let me give you an example, we did a deal that

benefited, listen, 2.1 million people on my hands. There is no

business you do by yourself. As a leader, you accumulate funds. Your

stock on the stock exchange go up. It is not like I am stealing money.

We have done very well. It is acceptable that you have accumulated

this fund, given all sorts of headlines, one that you have bought

a tropical island in the Indian Ocean for $70 million. Is it true?

Yes, and I learnt is a piece of farm in the middle of the sea in

Mozambique and it is $7 million -- Mozambique. I am a leader of

business. In South Africa, you have got to resist. You cannot be a

businessman without helping local people. I have thousands of people,

like I said, 2.1 million beneficiaries in one transaction.

Put on your politician had. You left as minister for Human Settlement in

2013. What do you make of the merry-go-round of the Finance

Minister? Will you through in your hat for that? We have seen Gordan,

well, Nene was taken out, which caused issues that worried many

people, and then he put in someone else hastily, he removed him and now

Gordan is back. Is it a fiasco? Let me take off my political hat and

talk to you. We are shellshocked that within four days we have three

finance ministers. It is simply not on. I can see that the President has

backtracked to correct himself. I was in the Cabinet in the past. The

Finance Minister position is highly sensitive. I should know that,

having operated in the markets. It is not good for our image. I hope

this will all be behind us when the minister, in whom I have a lot of

confidence, which I said, when he takes the reins. I can see that the

currency of South Africa has rebounded, it is coming back,

because it is trying to correct the mistake of last week, which was made

in changing Finance Minister is so suddenly. What about the political

fallout, it seems to indicate Jacob Zuma does not have a firm hand at

the tiller? Well, I used to be in government, I was in politics, I am

no longer. If I am to give my tuppence, it is important that

politicians understand before they take decisions the consequences of

those decisions. Especially in the market. Take a decision, you can

fall off your stall, debt and inflation can rise. I would hope

that this episode of the last four days becomes a lesson people should

learn Cash stool. You don't tinker with the markets that easily. --

stool. Given the storm has subsided, can Tokyo Sexwale, freedom fighter

turned politician, turned businessman, you have even made TV

appearances in South Africa, can you reinvent yourself and become Fifa

President? Well, my sister, Zeinavb, I have been here for nine

years -- Zeinab. I have been elected to head the Palestine Football

Committee Fifa to bring peace and harmony into the organisation, to

normalise football between the countries. So, when I get there, I

will rely on, as president of Fifa to be, I rely on transparency. That

is all that is missing from this brand that has been so badly

damaged, in terms of democracy and openness. I will rely on the fact

that those inside FIFA have to understand it is about players,

officials and sponsors. Let's take advantage of it. This is the

opportunity to rectify what has happened. The brand is damaged and

needs repair. Tokyo Sexwale from Johannesburg, thank you very much

for coming on HARDtalk.