Archbishop Josiah Idowu-Fearon - Secretary General of the Anglican Communion HARDtalk

For years, the Anglican Communion has been preoccupied with issues

of sexuality and the growing rift between the liberal and conservative

But all the while the Anglican faithful, along with other

Christians, have been living with persecution in countries as far

Today my guest is the Secretary General of the

Anglican Communion, archbishop Josiah Idowu-Fearon from Nigeria.

Does the Anglican establishment have its priorities right?

Archbishop Josiah Idowu-Fearon, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. If I

may, I want to start with a rather extraordinary quote of yours. Quite

recently you said, we Christians need a bit more persecution from

outside and you went on to explain that, even the extremist threat that

Christians face in countries such as your own, the church denominations

then all pull together. Were you being serious when you set that?

Yes, I was -- said. More persecution? Yes but let me

explain. That statement was informed by my experience in Nigeria. Each

time we had extremists burning churches, causing havoc in the name

of religion, Christians came together. We prayed together. We

have tried to find solutions together. But after that period,

when we seemed to have some peace, when you hear Christians fighting

one another, bothering themselves with things that are irrelevant,

that have nothing to do with the Gospel. That is what has informed

that statement. But the very notion that persecution can somehow be for

the good is troubling, because obviously every time there is a

round of persecution in a country like Nigeria, we're talking about

many people, men, women and children being killed, churches being

attacked, village is being destroyed and certainly is a churchman and a

member of the hierarchy, you don't want to see that simply to have the

church altogether. Stephen, persecution is not just that alone.

There are other forms of persecution like being denied what your rights

are, for example, rights to own property, rights to have airtime on

television, for your voice to be heard on the radio. These are other

forms of persecution which I, as the Nigerian, did go through. Thank God

things are getting better. But wouldn't it be better for Nigeria if

the citizens of your country no longer primarily thought of

themselves as Christian Nigerians or Muslim Nigerians Webb that in fact

religion became something very private and something that didn't

have a bearing on the rest of their lives? Well, that's the ideal we are

all praying and hoping to achieve. But you must understand that in

Nigeria, and most of the African countries, tribalism and the

struggle for control of resources often puts on the facade of

religion. So which is it religion per se. However, because the African

is very religious, he or she takes cover. So it is a cover up. Right

and you are saying that really it is about power, land, very material

struggles. Absolutely, that's what it is and you don't have that in

this country. No but you see, there are many church people, and many

Muslim scholars as well, who are talking these days about a

fundamental struggle between Christianity and Islam. In many

different parts of the world, including your own. I am sure you

know the Archbishop of Kenya, he says that in Africa and the Middle

East, Christian communities are being destroyed and intimidated by

Islamic radicalism. Yes. It's the kind of language of a clash of

religions, a clash of civilizations. Yes. That's a fact but I think it

would be a sweeping statement to say, in Africa. It is not just in

Africa. We see it now in the Middle East. But I still come to my point,

what we need in Nigeria and other parts of Africa is for Africans to

sit down and say, now, which comes first? MIA Nigerian before being a

Christian or am I a Christian before being a Nigerian? There is a world

of difference. If I see myself as the Nigerian, whether I am Christian

or Muslim, that helps to bring about unity. But what religious leaders

do, and politicians capitalise on, is to divide us along religious

lines. It is very interesting you include religious leaders in not. I

wonder how you feel, perhaps the most important religious leader of

all, obviously not from the Anglican strand of Christianity, but Pope

Francis said recently, he talked about a third world war being waged

piecemeal, he said. We are now experiencing it, a form of genocide

is taking place. And he basically said that it was Christians in many

different parts of the world, vulnerable communities, who are

facing this form of genocide. Was that language, in your view, helpful

or was it a problem? In my situation in Nigeria, it is not helpful.

Because the religious crisis, the Boko Haram crisis we are facing does

not discriminate. They come under the guise of Islam but we all know,

and they also know this, that this is not the Islam we are used to. For

example, in that northeastern part of Nigeria, it is predominantly

Muslim. Sunni Islam. Who are they trying to convert there? So it isn't

religion per se. That is the point. So the Pope got it wrong, in a

sense. If he was talking about communities such as your own in

Nigeria, which of course includes Christians, Sunni Muslims and Shia

Muslims as well, to characterize this as some form of genocidal

action against Christians was just plain wrong? Well, probably the Pope

was speaking from the information he had, but the information, what I

live within my country, I wouldn't use the word religious genocide,

because Boko Haram, more Muslims have been killed under it than

Christians. It is an interesting point. Now you are known to some in

Nigeria as Archbishop Dialogue. The Muslim Bishop, they call me.

Actually some have even accused you of being a closet Muslim. Yes. I

don't know how you feel about that. When some of the Christian

communities in Nigeria say, he is so keen on reaching out and building

bridges to Muslims in our country, that we actually think he is a

Muslim, what do you do? Do you laugh or worry? It doesn't worry me. In

fact, I laugh because I say, praise God for it, because that is my

calling. Stephen, I did not choose this ministry, God chose me and I

believe God has done that for a specific purpose. I come from the

northern parts of Nigeria, where religion is being used, has been

used to divide us. Along Christian-Muslim lines. In the

Southwest, you have a significant, huge number of Muslims and

Christians. They don't fight. Why are we fighting in the north weighs

so I believe my calling is to help the Muslim to see me as a fellow

Nigerian who comes from the northern part of the country. I understand

the calling and your commitment to this bridge building, and you have

established study groups and EU yourself have spent a lot of time

studying Islam as well as Christianity, I know that. But you

have to accept that your bridge building efforts have failed, have

they not? Sectarian conflict and communal tension today in Nigeria is

probably higher than it has ever been before, partly because of Boko

Haram. Stephen, when you say it is because the Muslims want to convert

Christians, no, that is the point. Boko Haram is not, primarily because

Muslims in Nigeria want all Christians to become Muslims, it is

not true. That may not be true, but Christians see the girls from Chibok

being kidnapped... They are not all Christians. There from a mostly

Christian area and they're mostly Christian girls and is the video

evidence suggested, they were forcibly converted to Islam.

Christian Nigerians see that and whether or not they know that their

friends and neighbours happened to be Muslim and that most Muslims are

not of that militant persuasion, do not believe in the caliphate or

anything else, they also naturally feel frightened, they feel tense and

they braved is being established in Nigerian society which all of your

bridge building efforts are not overcoming. It is. We are making

efforts. Naughton the truth is as long as Islam and Christianity,

which are both mythological and have this aspect of wanting people to

live their own way, as long as we have both together, there will

always be room for conflict and our job, my job, is to help the Muslim

and Christian to understand each other. Let me ask you this. You

believe in bridge building, in dialogue and reaching out. Are you

interested in establishing a dialogue with the leadership of Boko

Haram? If we can actually identify who the true leadership... I mean

what the true leadership is composed of. Why not? Because one, a good

number of them are Nigerians, whether we like it or not. I do not

discount it as a fact that some of them are probably from Niger or the

Cameroon area or Chad. If we can identify them, dialogue is the

beginning of the solution. So you would talk to convicted killers, two

men who have blood on their hands? Is they are willing. -- if.

Stephen, we must all understand one thing. These are all God 's

children. Whether they are criminals or not, they are all and God, from

my religion, issues that that God loves us equally. They have chosen

to behave the way they are behaving and the responsibility is on those

of us who believe there is a better way to find... To help them to find

a better way. That is why I am a Christian, that is why I am involved

in bridge building. Let's change our focus a little bit. You have talked

about your commitment to bridge building inside Nigeria but you need

to build bridges within the Anglican community because it is in the

process of falling apart. You have taken the job of Secretary General,

one of the most senior officials behind the authority of The

Archbishop of Canterbury himself. How are you going to build bridges

within the different wings of the communion which, frankly, is in the

process of collapse? I think it would be an overstatement

to say that the Anglican Communion is on the verge of collapse. My

reason is this. There is not a single church on the face of this

earth today that is not wrestling with this question of human

sexuality. And I'm saying this from evidence. Last month, we had this

committee of secretaries general of the various major denominations from

Roman Catholic, Presbyterians, Baptists, name it. Ovation army,

seventh-day Adventists. They meet once a year. And as the new

Secretary General of the Anglican Communion I was inducted. And I sat

and I listened to them. Everybody sharing the events of the past

year. Not one single church is not wrestling with this crisis. They may

be wrestling but I can think of no other major denomination where the

chief of the Church has actually said we may have to separate because

of the differences within our Communion. And that is precisely

what Justin Welby has said. Have you read his letter or are you following

what you read in the Guardian? Have you read the letter? I have seen one

senior Anglican officials saying it may not be a complete divorce but

we're going to have to sleep in separate bedrooms. What kind of

Church is that? Excuse me. That the new church person is not an

instrument. -- that senior Church person. I can assure you that if you

read that letter, there is nowhere in the latter were the Archbishop of

Canterbury has said that. However, even if the primates when they

meeting January decide this is the way the Communion will go, they

cannot implement it. That is the caveat. You are now getting

interprocess. I'm just getting into what I see in front of my nose. One

thing I see is that you are fallen out big time with your own

colleagues in the Nigerian Anglican community. You think so? Because of

the job you have taken. They call you a allowed. One says you should

never have taken this job of Secretary General of the Anglican

Communion because of the impaired relationship we have in Nigeria with

the Anglican Church in the West. You should not have taken the job. It

was wrong because you did not tell your Nigerian colleagues who had the

intention of doing that. I did not have to tell them. I'm a bishop...

Did you tell the Bishop of ... He says it is absolutely wrong. He is a

bishop, he is a colleague of yours. He is a colleague of mine but does

he actually understand the ethos of Anglicanism? Does he understand what

the job of a bishop is? Is a bishop in this church in this Communion, I

have a right to serve anywhere within the Communion. But what he

appears to understand for himself is that his form of Anglicanism

involves regarding homosexuality as a sin, as evil, and seeing the

Church as for and a day being opposed to any notion of gay

bishops, of accepting homosexuality in the priesthood. He believes that

you have now joined the hierarchy that is selling out on fundamental

principles. Are you reading into the statement he made? Has what you have

said they written down? If so, with due respect to him and others, I

would refer them to the position of the Anglican Communion. There is a

mistake. A huge number of leaders within this Communion are making

this mistake, particularly from Africa. This Church has a position

on human sexuality, which is clearly stated in resolution 110 of the 1998

Lambeth conference. It is very clear and that is our position. My job is

to defend this position. What this bishop has said is completely out of

that resolution. With respect, it is not clear. In 2014, you told the new

Telegraph newspaper that he favoured supporting the criminalisation of

homosexuality in Nigeria. And now you see that you don't actually

support it and you have no position on it. Well, my position as

Secretary General is the position of the Communion and I am obliged to

defend that position. My audience is not going to want to know the

process of being Secretary General. They are just going to want to know

what is in your heart. Do you believe, like the Nigerian

government does, and as the Nigerian law says, that homosexuality is a

criminal act? Yes or no? As an Anglican following resolution 110,

no. Resolution 110 says that we cannot vilify or criminalise

homosexuality. So, you are completely out of step with the

leadership of the Church in your own country, Nigeria, and you are out of

this with your own government. Well, I have a position. I can be

out of step with my government because my loyalty is to Jesus

Christ. And the Anglican Communion is part of the Church of Jesus

Christ. After praying, consulting, we came up with this position and

this position has not changed. If the Communion decides today to

change that position, I have the right to either keep to it or

withdraw. The global Anglican forum which gathers together many of the

more conservative elements in the African Church and conservative

elements from other man -- other parts of the world in the Communion,

it is quite clearly organising two is not break away from the

Archbishop of Canterbury and the mainstreaming Church to suddenly put

as much pressure as possible on the Archbishop of Canterbury to ensure

that he does not embrace, for example, gay marriage inside

churches as the Episcopalians in America have embraced it. Do you see

that ultimately, as he has said, that separation at least temporarily

may have to happen? You remember earlier that I didn't say to you

that there is no Church that is not wrestling with this. There are

various ways of being a Communion. And I would appeal to the bishops

like the one you mentioned to look at what is happening in other

churches. That is number one. Secondly, church... The Church is a

human organisation but it is not under the control of human beings.

Jesus says it will build my Church. And the gates of hell shall not

prevail against it. This will not be the first... This is not the first

time that the Church is having to wrestle with an issue, a divisive

and sensitive issue, like the question of human sexuality. You are

absolutely right about that but perhaps there has never been a time

where the disconnect between what the Church internally is obsessed by

and what Christians in their daily lives are facing in countries like

Nigeria, Sudan and area. The disconnect has arguably never been

greater. Why is the Anglican Communion is so obsessed with

navelgazing on these issues of sexuality when there are so many

greater challenges facing ordinary Christians in so many parts of the

world? And that is why I would advise my brothers and sisters who

come together and tried to make this issue dividing issue to listen to

the Archbishop of Canterbury. To proclaim the Gospel. To fight the

other ills in our society. Islamic extremism, corruption, which is

crippling many parts of the world, especially in Africa and my own

country. The question of bad governance. But you have not

answered my question. Why is it that facing all of those real

challenges, the Church is still so inward looking and preoccupied with

sex? Why? Which Judge? Your Church. My Church? How many of the provinces

are obsessed? Is it a power struggle? Let us be honest. Is it a

power struggle between those in Africa? And Nigeria would be a great

example because you have such a large number of questions, including

Anglicans. Is it a power struggle between the emerging economies and

the developing world and the old establishment in the UK and US? Is

that what it is about? That is part of it and I say that as an insider.

That is part of it. However, I think it is more than that. The coaches

are changing. Western culture is changing. Even nonwestern cultures

are changing. And one of perceive there is a change coming, everybody

is afraid of change. And change is inevitable. What I would say to

people like the global South is this. We must find the ways and

means of presenting Jesus Christ to the various cultures. We have to

wend there. I do thank you for being on the programme, Archbishop.

The Christmas trees may be up but the winter duvet's certainly

We've got very mild weather with us being dragged all the way