Jack Straw - Foreign Secretary, 2001-2006 HARDtalk


Jack Straw - Foreign Secretary, 2001-2006

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Welcome to HARDtalk. All sanctions relating to Iran's nuclear programme

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have enlisted in a deal labelled historic. -- in listed. A change in

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their history had begun to be my guest is Jack Straw who served under

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Tony Blair. -- begun. He supports closer ties with Iran. What is he is

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response to critics who believes that this will bolster the

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hardliners in the country, exacerbate regional rivalries, and

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instil a sense of terror in the Middle East.

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Jack Straw, welcome. The Iranian Foreign Minister said the lifting of

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sanctions on Iran would be good for Iran and the region and the world.

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Is he right? Yeah. The people doubt that, but they need to think about

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the alternative. If sanctions have not been lifted and Iran made a

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pariah state. What would have happened? In my view, if the

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sanctions had not been agreed by President Obama and the US, the

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hardliners in Iran would have eclipsed President Rouhani and the

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nuclear weapons programme, which is generally accepted, that would have

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restarted. The world would have definitely become a more dangerous

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place. This guarantees Iran, even if it wants to, cannot restart it is

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nuclear weapons programme for 15 years. You are satisfied that all

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the checks the US says are there will be carried out vigorously...

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You are satisfied they are OK? They are. You can never be completely

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satisfied, but nuclear weapons programmes are much more difficult

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to hide than chemical and biological weapons programmes. The IAEA is the

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agency responsible for checking this and it is all over Iran and has a

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lot of a ground knowledge. The key country is the United States. --

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background. They often called the US the great Satan and part of the axis

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of evil. You have got people in the US who are very concerned, Obama

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will be on his way out soon, I will give you one example, Marco Rubio,

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one of the Republican presidential candidates, he has thwarted Obama

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for rewarding Iran despite it's atrocious record. There is huge

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mistrust. -- its. There is. If you go to Tehran and see the slogans of

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death to America still on the walls... The British embassy... The

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liberal Satan, they called Britain. We are in the same company. In the

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side streets around the compound is the Bobby Sands street named after

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the IRA bomber... It is more the mistrust in the US I was talking

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about, a key nations a pillow there is of course huge distrust. --

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nation. -- much of that has been whipped up by the Israelis. This may

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sound patronising... Amongst the body politic in the US, there is a

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level of under information verging on ignorance about international

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affairs which is often terrifying. When he says Iran has an atrocious

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man rights record he has a point. -- human rights. They execute more

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people than any other country apart from China. 160 juvenile offenders

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on death row... A very poor record. But is that a reason for not

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agreeing to this deal in respect to nuclear weapons? I suspect, I don't

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know, I suspect the reformers who have agreed this deal would also

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like to see a change in their human rights record. Bear in mind that the

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judicial read and elements that of the forces that arrest people are

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not in control of the government. -- judiciary. I would also say that

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China has a horrible human rights record and so does Saudi Arabia.

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Absolutely atrocious. A terrible record in terms of the treatment of

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women, far worse than Iran. And, don't forget, in Senator Rubio's

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home state, Texas, they have one of the worst records of capital

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punishment as well. He is just one of many voices. The point is you

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cannot just criticise the message because there is substance to the

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message. Another example with Iran. The Foreign Minister said no country

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has one, this is a draw. But the idea that Iran is being rewarded

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even though it isn't being asked to changes behaviour... -- won. The

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National Security Council says they tend to back Shiah populations and

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insights them to violence and provide them with the wherewithal to

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do so. Thus, the Iranians have become deeply embroiled in the wars

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of the region. That is true. But it is true in the opposite way with

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Saudi Arabia. It is embroiled in the other way. It is a given that Iran,

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the leader of the minority Shia community within the Muslim world,

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should have a natural association with other Shia communities in

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Lebanon and Syria and Iraq and along the golf as well as in the western

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part of Afghanistan. -- the Gulf. The question is how do you engage

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with Iran in those... So even Bashar al-Assad, the offshoot of Shiahism,

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responsible for the death of many in Syria... That is understandable? As

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a matter of social and geographic loyalties and historic connections,

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yeah, that is not in the least to excuse President Assad and his

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brutal regime... And his allies, Iranians, the Revolutionary Guard

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fighting on the ground alongside him. And his allies. The Syrian

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conflict is incredibly complicated, as you know. The Assad regime is

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also being supported by the Shia, but also the Christians who feel

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under threat from the Sunnis and some Sunni business people as well.

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The question is not, are you going to break these long-standing

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connections, it is what a few going to do about them's you are far more

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likely, from my ex variants in dealing with Iran and other

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countries, to get Iran to help, if Iran is around the table it is much

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easier. -- them? If you want some political solution to the series of

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war, which we do, of course, you have to have them around the table

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along with countries that Russia. -- Syrian War. The first Geneva accords

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were doomed to failure because the British and US governments decided

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to exclude Iran. The reverse is also true. If Iran is around the table,

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they have made it clear, and so has Russia, yeah, Bashar al-Assad will

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have to be part of the solution in terms of the agreement, but as soon

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as there has in a piece, the Assad's family's duties will lie elsewhere.

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-- been a piece. Saudi Arabia, of course, the major Sunni force in the

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region, a huge rivalry with the Iranian. We see all sorts of Roxy

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was laying out between the two of them. -- proxy wars. Backing the

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Houthis... All sorts of rivalries in the region. The Saudi Arabians are

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incredibly unhappy about this. They are. One of the reasons President

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Obama pushed for this is to make them unhappy. It may sound odd, but

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there is anxiety in Washington and European capitals about the

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direction of travel of the Saudi regime. I believe that part of the

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sub agenda of these talks and this rapprochement has been to secure a

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different balance of power in the Gulf. If the West is able to get

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normal business with Iran and foreign policy as well... That will

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make relations with Saudi Arabia more balanced. Is that a strategy

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you back? Having Iran as a counterweight? Do you believe that

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the West and the UK is too close to Saudi Arabia? Is neat to be. -- it

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needs to be rebalanced. Just as the process of breaking out of the trap

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of sanctions in Iran is actually in the long-run helping the reforms...

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I will ask you about that then. Just to finish the Southee in. You

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believe that is the correct strategy? -- Saudi thing. Is that

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because you believe that western nations are to close to Saudi

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Arabia? -- Western. You can criticise me for this, but in the

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absence of Iran and a proper relationship, there is only one

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serious capital in the least, Riyadh. That has now changed. --

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Middle East. We have to have terms where they acknowledge that they

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have a neighbour across the Persian Gulf who has a different set of

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viewpoints and they have to work with them. And there is also concern

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about the internal situation in Saudi Arabia. They need a council

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thinking about that. When David Cameron says the relationship with

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Saudi Arabia is important for our security in the UK, what do you make

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of that? Is the wrong or right? He is right that it is important. --

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he. Don't want to see them going up. But you want to die muted? --

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dilute it. I don't believe that if we have a better relationship with

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Iran it sucks the power and influence out of the relationship

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with Saudi Arabia. The sensible approach in international diplomacy

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is to have good relations with all. If you want better stability within

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the region, you need to have Saudi Arabia and Iran finally accepting

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that their destiny in that region, however difficult, lies together.

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That will not happen. Wendy Saudi Arabian Foreign Ministry chose

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Iran's record has been one of fear and destabilisation and interference

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in the affairs of other countries... -- says. That is just

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one quote from the Saudi Foreign Minister. And also a Saudi Arabian

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journalist to have equated and is a former adviser to the Foreign

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Minister, saying that if Saudi Arabia gets a nuclear bomb... -- --

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been quoted. He gets excited in contrast to his predecessor. I don't

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think he would have said things in this way. Look, you have a terrible

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hopelessness with no end to it with civil war in the Yemen. The only way

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that can be resolved is by negotiations with Saudi Arabia and

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Iran. They are fighting a proxy war. They have negotiations, may be

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brokered in turn by the United States, Russia and the EU. They have

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to start trying to live together. Obama's strengthening of the Iranian

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government, in my view, in homes is that prospect. The you tend own

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Saudi Arabia's actions in Yemen? -- condone.

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I am worried, as it turns out, British military personnel involved

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in giving assistance in terms of targeting. Nobody I speak to who

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knows it much better than I do, thinks that this conflict in Yemen,

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is anything with more tears. And the people of Yemen are renowned for

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just carrying on fighting. So should Britain then stop... If there is a

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far better explanation offered, we should withdraw that support and

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work towards a political solution. There are concerns that there have

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been attacked to have been attacks with kill people within that area. I

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defend the British government's policy the supporting the US and the

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French in the strikes in cereal and northern Iraq and sometimes

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civilians will be killed but that sometimes is a very sad consequence

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and very necessary action. I don't see the same case as Forest Yemen is

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concerned. It is a little reported war in terms of how the West has

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reported. But it has huge potential for destabilisation. The thing I do

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not understand is how that Saudi's think they can contain this within

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the borders of Yemen. The borders between Yemen and Saudi Arabia are

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very porous indeed. Just a final thing on this Saudi and Iranian

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relationship, you have other vested interests like Sudan and other

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countries field. Don't forget in Bahrain there is a Shia majority.

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don't buy into what I see is a naive view in terms of trade

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relationship. I'm not in any doubt that if you can improve trade and

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raise the common interest, then you reduce the security threats to

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country. And I'm sure that why the council in the UAE will recognise

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that. They are completely relaxed about Iran and a very happy about

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what has happened. Going back to Iran now, you said several times

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that lifting of the sanctions relating to Iran's sanctions has

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left something like the dollar exchange restrictions due to Iraq's

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listed missile brought new sanctions on 11

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individuals. And those still exist up in terms of the nuclear

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sanctions, you have consistently said that will bolster the moderates

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at the expense of the hardliners. Why are you so sure of that Russian

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yellow because I've developed an understanding of the politics within

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Iran -- so sure of that? You were the first key Western politician to

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visit. I visited just after 9/11. He had been elected in 97 and he was a

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reformist. He was tried to open things up. You then had 9/11. In

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Baghdad, Saddam Hussein organised celebrations against the Americans

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to celebrate the fact that our kinder had taken down the twin

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towers. In sharp contrast, the president organised the jewels in

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sympathy with the victims of 9/11. He reached out to the west and that

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is one of the key reasons I went there so quickly. And the

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consequence was that Iran was fantastically helpful for the West

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until President Bush pulled the rug from under the feet of the Iranians

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with his access of evil speech. Why do think they will be strengthened?

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If they help the moderates, they will help us. And the reverse is

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also true as I saw so starkly in the years after the access of evil

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speech when Iran was lumped in with Iraq -- axis. Know there were

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concerns the other Gulf states the list $100 billion that has often

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been quoted now as the sanctions relief one way or another will come

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to Iran in time, it's going to be used to Iran two males are more in

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the region. -- meddling. All of the big countries... Just with Iran

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honour they could use the money with that. It is the people within the

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Revolutionary guards and the businesses they control and who have

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been most opposed to the president beginning in this and signing this

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deal. They were putting the supreme leader under three great pressure to

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refuse authorities to make those deals. We are where we are now. And

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you are asking me how can I be certain, you can never be certain in

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international relations but I'm far more certain than I ever was that

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this deal will help moderates. On this 100 billion... I know it will

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happen gradually. And the Iranian economy needs restructuring. You

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cannot be certain because you have asserted it and we know that the

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other conservatives and the hardliners with Parliamentary

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elections in February coming have been prevented from standing because

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they are too reformist. Berry still a long way to go with that. I want

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to ask you as a senior Labour figure about your party because when it

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comes to action like the intensified air strikes against Syria and when

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the British royal air force came in, the new Labour leader was

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opposed to that, you might key members of the Shadow Cabinet

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supporting air strike. Is that kind of position tenable to have a key

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figure like her so out of step with the leader? Hillary was supporting a

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substantial proportion of the parliamentary party. It is something

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we have to live with at the moment that the party is somewhat divided.

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That as a consequence of the electoral system that produced a

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leader, Jeremy Corbyn who was perfectly elected. Is it tenable?

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When you were Foreign Secretary you supported the invasion of Iraq and

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Tony Blair was a huge proponent of that. The state-of-the-art in, and

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you are out of step as Hillary is with Jeremy Corbyn, would you have

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remained in the government if you disagreed with him? Not in

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government. I differed with him. If you were in Hillary's shoes you

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would... You are in a very different position. This is not the first time

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that senior opposition leaders have disagreed that that happened in the

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1950s, it was optically pretty and it was not particularly pretty at

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the moment. But it is a fact of life. In opposition we are making

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decisions in government. It does not matter. It does matter but it does

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not have the same affect. If you are saying you cannot be an effective

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opposition, and the Labour leader asking further unilateral

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disarmament and the future of Trident and the nuclear warheads

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whether they should go on the submarines are not, and when you

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have a leader like that who was a large part of the Labour Party

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disagree with him, his days are numbered, surely? I disagree. It was

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not a system that he created. The rest of the party needs to accept

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that he was elected perfectly fairly by a system that he had no control.

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You cannot blame the candidates are using the system. I don't happen to

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agree with Jeremy on a lot of things, but as it happens, we were

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on the same page with the future of Iran. He was democratic elected and

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one wailed another the Parliamentary party and Jeremy Corbyn's leadership

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will have to reach some accommodation. It is a painful

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process and it is something that happened for the first time 50

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years. Gifford coming on HARDtalk. Thank you. -- thank you for coming

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on.

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