Janet Napolitano, former US Secretary of Homeland Security HARDtalk


Janet Napolitano, former US Secretary of Homeland Security

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-- what it calls "combined operations".

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Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.

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World leaders are all grappling with similar problems these days -

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how to counter terrorism, enhance security and manage

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national borders, while at the same time remaining open to the benefits

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My guest is someone whose job that was, Janet Napolitano.

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She was homeland security chief for five years under

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She's also a former governor of Arizona, a US border state.

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How does she think we can make the world a safer place and respect

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Janet Napolitano, welcomed the HARDtalk. When you look around the

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world today you see almost daily acts of terror, insecure borders and

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the rest of it. You can't really, you are fighting a losing battle,

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are due? The world is a very troubled place. Everyone would agree

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with that and it is a very troubled place. Everyone would agree with

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that and the rise of jihad and the huge migration patterns that are

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under way. If you look at what your successor has said, he says he is

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very worried about the soft targets, the public places. For instance, in

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December last year we saw the San Bernardino killings, 14 people

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killed by a couple, a Pakistani wife and her husband say it for rook.

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That kind of attack is practically impossible to do anything about. --

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Syed Farook. You had a few, the Times Square bomber. Yes, the Boston

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Marathon, among others. When you think about something like San

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Bernardino, they call it leaderless jihad, in other words, people who

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had become converted to that theory of violence and they aren't part of

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an organised group and there's nothing to intercept and there's no

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travel to stop and they just go and commit an unspeakable act of

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violence. It is also the kind that is directed abroad. We saw that with

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the so-called Underwear Bomber in Christmas of 2009. That, from a

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security interception possibility gives you greater odds. You famously

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said at the time that the system worked but it was actually his

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fellow passengers who overpowered him and they realised that the bomb

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failed to detonate. -- when they realised. It was a lucky escape,

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however I was talking about how immediately upon that episode we

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were able to get control over all US bound international air travel and

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confirm every single passenger that was on the way to the United States.

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That was part of a system that... He got on a plane with underwear that

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had explosives in it and it failed to detonate properly. It is

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interesting, Janet Napolitano, that you are citing the attacks by

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jihadists because when you look at the figures it is quite striking

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that since the September the 11th attacks in the United States 400,000

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people in the US have died from gunfire, violence, and the 45, very

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tragic obviously, from jihadist of violence. So the numbers don't stack

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up. 12% of attacks in the US are jihadist inspired. So why the focus

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from you, when the figures don't justify that perhaps? I think that

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focus on jihad really drives from September the 11th, when we had over

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3000 Americans killed in the towers in New York, with flight 93 and so

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forth. For Americans to have that kind of an attack that comes from

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abroad and attacks iconic sites it was a real game changer for the

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United States. But the implication of what you are saying is that fear

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is driving security policy in the United States. I think in the United

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States, and it is sad to say and I don't agree with it as a matter of

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policy, but in general there is a greater acceptance of risk of dying

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in some way with gunfire. But not an acceptance of risk with dying by

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terrorism. So security policy focuses on the counter-terrorism

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aspect. So when Barack Obama said after the San Bernardino attacked in

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this -- in December, as we become better at dealing with complex

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attacks like September said -- September 11, that is the benchmark

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of security, we are successful if we avoid a massive jihadist attack.

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Whatever else happens. I don't think so. You want to avoid other kind of

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attacks as well. But in the United States most street crimes, violent

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crimes, are not handled at the federal level but at the local

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police departments or State Department of police. It is

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prosecuted under different laws. I think it is evaluated as a different

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type of risk. Can I just say that it is interesting because when you were

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a homeland security chief there was a report published that had been

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commissioned by George Bush and it was released when you were in the

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position. It said lone wolves and small terrorist cells in bracing

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right-wing extremist ideology are the most dangerous domestic

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terrorism threat to the United States. So it's not just regular

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gunfire that poses the biggest threat, is it? No. It is the right

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wing extremists. We have violent extremists of all types in the US.

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Unfortunately. What you have to do from a security perspective is,

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using the best kind of information you can glean, consistent with civil

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liberties, with information sharing, data collection and all that, do

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everything you can to prevent and then be in a position to immediately

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respond. The fact is, it is because of that, as you say, in the US the

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perception is the jihadist threat after 9/11 is what really should

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people up. Look at the Oklahoma bombing in 1995... I worked on that

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case too. Right. So because of the attention on the jihadist threat,

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arguably there aren't enough resources being spent on the

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threat, the internal threat, from right-wing extremists. They cite

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people who say they should be much more done to try to put resources

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into right-wing extremists. I do think when we are planning security

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in the United States we sit down and say, that the jihadist, that's a

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right-winger, we are going to put money here or there. No, the notion

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is, where can you invest resources to be the most effective for public

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safety? When you look at the links between American jihadist --

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jihadists, like the one killed in 2011 in Yemen by a US drone attack,

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it was an American citizen living in the US. Why does somebody like that

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escape surveillance and is not stopped before they go on to commit

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greater acts of violence? Well, he was an interesting case. He was a

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cleric at a mosque outside of Washington, DC. After the attack of

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9/11, he was on TV as a kind of moderate Muslim condemning the

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attack. Boaties preachings got more radical. He went to England, went to

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Yemen and he became the voice of AQAT and then he became their

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operational head. That was a turning point in a sense of the president

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was a willingness to authorise a drone attack on an American citizen.

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How do you identify and catch people like that? Also the Boston bombers,

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which happened on your watch, the two Brothers, another who left the

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US and the FBI closed the investigation before he came back.

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You clearly need better surveillance. I think you have to

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think about what kind of surveillance. Al-Awlaki was in

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Yemen. It is very difficult to find individuals in Yemen. It is

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difficult to see Dale, even though there was close watch on what he was

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putting out on internet. The vast majority were reading al-Awlaki's

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sermons. But airport records? You mentioned that was relevant with the

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Underpants Bomber. We did a lot of work after that because it revealed

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a gap in international air information system and we fixed

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that. But we spent a year working with the UN and others to fix that.

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With the Boston bombers, these were young men, the sons of those who had

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fled from Russia. One went back. That's the older one. Yes. But there

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was no information, other than what the Russians said, that while he was

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in Russia he had somehow engaged in or become radicalised to the point

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of violence and indeed the records show that the VI -- the FBI

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interviewed him, they spoke to family members. They followed up on

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the lead. The Russians provided no more information. So they closed the

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case. And he was an ethnic Chechens. Talking about the road of technology

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and surveillance, there is great concern that whatever you are trying

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to do is going to be subject to perhaps cyber attack. You have said

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the United States may face some kind of major cyber event. Hywel Reddy is

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the US if something like that was to happen that could shut down

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infrastructure? -- Hywel Reddy. This is one of the risks for many

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countries of the world, not just the United States, that we are so

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willing to buy technology that there can be a major attack carried out

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through that. It could be committed to different nation states, but also

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different individuals using again the internet as... Weaponising it in

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a way. Very difficult to prevent, difficult to respond to. The US is

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not prepared if something like that happened? It would be a calamity? It

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could be. It depends on what it is, where it is, the extent of the

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attack, the technology used in the attack. There are lots of things

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that you have to go through. But, yes, in certain circumstances it

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could be calamitous. What is the nature of the threat exactly? Could

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it be some terror cells that are extremely good technology, all

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states that perhaps don't see eye to eye? Nationstates? It could be

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either. Actually, in terms of the kind of cyber crimes we have seen

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from the United States side, attribution is one of the most

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difficult aspects because you can see the attack, you can see what's

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happening on the systems et cetera. We do have things in place to stop

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attacks on three are detected, but the attribution can be awfully

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difficult. Talking about technology, there's quite a controversy going on

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at the moment because the federal court has said that it wants Apple

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to unlock the phone of the San Bernardino shooters and Apple is

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resistant with that. Right. The two top senators on the intelligence

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committee says there should be legislation to force companies to

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provide such information. What do you think? There's this tension

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between privacy rights and security, it is becoming more

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apparent. The Apple case puts a fine point on it. In my view, from what

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I've read, I do not all of the details, but from what I've read

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icon clue bat in all Lord there's no Apple exception. If you've shown by

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the information is necessary, that law enforcement should prevail and

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in previous cases that has generally been the case. But it is this

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balance between as you say the rights of citizens, the right to

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privacy, although with this case I think the phone was a work phone,

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but at any rate the chief executive of Apple Tim Cook says the

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implication of the demands are chilling. He says the worry is that

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if the software was developed foreign governments and criminals

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could break into many other phones and so that degrades privacy for

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all. So the commercial company says it is protecting the rights of the

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citizens. I don't know the basis for his statement. You have to

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understand what exact knowledge you we are talking about. Is it new

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technology that has to be developed? If you did it for this case, under

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these unique circumstances, why does that open the door for all phones

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and foreign governments able to use it? I don't know whether Apple is

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stating its case accurately or perhaps overstating its case in

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order to make a point. So you would back legislation that would compel

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companies to assist the FBI or other law enforcement agencies to unlock

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phones of people, as in the case of this couple?

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My view is that the law as it currently exists should enable law

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enforcement to prevail. I would say that one of the undercurrent here is

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where you deploy resources. -- undercurrents. What do you do when

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you follow up on the one Austin bomber and you can't find anything?

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-- Boston. Do you put him under surveillance? Where do you focus

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efforts? Trying to access a phone or computer? They don't do that all the

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time. It is a resource issue. I have to see that the FBI has many reasons

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it has put forward to the court as to why this information is

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necessary. What about the debate with President Obama talking about

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Muslims, going to visit a mosque this year, you cannot abandon values

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or given to fear. -- give in. When we talk about Muslims and the

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jihadist threat you have to make sure you don't change an entire

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community in the US. Muslims are by and large very well integrated into

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society. That is important. Extremely important. It is not easy

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because these kind of situations happen. No answer makes everyone

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completely happy. What is the best decision I can make based on the

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facts given to me. And in the Apple versus FBI situation, the San

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Bernardino shooters, there is a debate to intercept phone calls or

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get information that already exists. I don't know of an Apple

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exception. So when the hopeful for the Republican Party says he wants a

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temporary ban on Muslims entering the US until all four trees can

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figure out what is going on... -- authorities. It resonates with many

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Americans, doesn't it? Donald Trump is a leading contender, I would say

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the lead contender right now. Do you think you will get the nomination?

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If you look at the delegates and the states, he is in a very good

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position to get his party's nomination. But I would say without

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caveat that the statement about banning all Muslims on the basis of

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religious faith is very much contrary to American values. Another

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issue he has played within particular in the race for the

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presidency is that of migrants. In 2014, according to peer research,

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11.3 million unauthorised migrants entered the United States, half from

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Mexico. You are the governor of Arizona, or were, which borders

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Mexico... He is talking about building a fence. You have said you

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are not supportive of that. What do you do? Let me just say that not

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only was I the governor of Arizona, a border state, I corrupt in

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Mexico, I spent my whole life there. -- grew up. I have spent a lot of

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time on that border and know it well. My view is, show me a ten foot

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wall and I will show you a ten foot ladder. A wall is not adequate and

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is very expensive and doesn't solve anything. You need an immigration

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policy that makes it easier for immigrants to come lawfully. How

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immigration law is desperately in need of reform. -- Our. I worked a

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lot on that when I was Secretary of Homeland Security. That is a key

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part of migration policy. The underlying law doesn't work very

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well. When you were in Homeland Security you had a programme called

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the Secure Communities Programme. Under that 2 million were deported

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last year. America is expelling illegal immigrants and nine times

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the rate of two years ago. He is outpacing any previous president,

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Barack Obama. That is partly you're doing. Is that something you can

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really be proud about? -- your. That programme was an asset to say,

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look, we cannot deport everybody in the US illegally. -- effort. We

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don't have the resources for that. Let's focus on other crimes in

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addition to immigration crimes. Where do you find those people?

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Jails and presence in the US. -- prisons. That programme was a data

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base of... The criticism was that you didn't focus on criminals and

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deport them. This person says it is not focused on dangerous criminals,

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it is as significant amounts of tax dollars to sweep up those who pose

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no threat to the community. That was 2010. There have been numerous

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criticisms. There have been criticisms and evolution is in the

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programme. -- evolutions. Anything new is subject to evolution. I would

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disagree with that criticism. That is not how it was carried out.

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204,000 parents of American children deported between 2010 and 2012, that

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attracted criticism. One example, the president of the University of

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California, one person there said it has torn apart families more than

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any other administration, the Obama administration. That is partly your

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record. You have to put it into context. What immigration

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enforcement is. Their right instances where we would not have

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deported but the law made us. -- There are. We are seeking to reform

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that law. When you became president of the University of California

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there were concerns because of your past as Homeland Security chief.

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This student says he doesn't know what your goal is because you come

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from a background of Homeland Security. We have about 190,000 what

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we would call undergraduate students and another 40,000 students. We are

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the largest public university in the US. And we have about 3500 also who

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are undocumented and we provide financial assistance, we have a

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learning programme, special centres for them, and we work with them,

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because they are in this very difficult circumstance. When I was

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Secretary of Homeland Security, I recognised that. We did the first

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executive action to defer deportation on young people who had

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been brought here and grown up in the US but had come here illegally.

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Briefly, you are supporting Hillary Clinton for the nomination for The

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Democratic Party. You have a record of public service, why didn't you

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run yourself? Because I love being the president... Of the University

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of California. Thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk. A pleasure.

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Thank you. Thank you. Rather belatedly we are seeing

:23:54.:24:18.

more typical winter weather. We don't have to worry

:24:19.:24:21.

about flooding and rain,

:24:22.:24:24.

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