George Katrougalos, Minister of Labour and Social Security, Greece HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

For more than five years the words Greece and crisis

have been inseparable.

The question isn't what crisis, but which crisis.

Greeks are simultaneously wrestling with the enormous burden posed

by mass migration from Turkey, and the effort to secure a long-term

fix for their stricken, debt-laden economy.

My guest today is Greece's minister for labour and social security,

George Katrougalos.

Is there light at the end of the two dark tunnels his country is in?

George Katrougalos, welcome to HARDtalk from your position

George Katrougalos, welcome to HARDtalk from your position

there in Athens.

I'm very happy to be with you.

Well, let's start with a question reacting to what we've seen

in the last few days.

Is your government satisfied with the EU deal, the outline deal,

that has been put together with Turkey to deal

with the migration crisis?

Well, we are still working to find a solution.

It is clear that it is not a solution that Greece to become

a kind of warehouse of abandoned souls, of thousands of immigrants

that are going to be in a black box without any way out to Europe.

On the other hand, it is clearly not a Greek problem,

it's a European problem.

Not just in the sense that Greece alone cannot handle the humanitarian

crisis, but also in the sense that we are speaking

about which kind of values Europe is going to respect.

It's about the future of Europe after all.

Yeah.

You say we are not going to allow ourselves to become a warehouse

for desperate and lost souls, but it seems to me that day by day

the risk of that being the case increases for you.

Every day we have new governments, today Macedonia, in the recent hours

we've also heard from Slovenia and Serbia,

they are all closing their borders to this migrant traffic,

which means more and more you are going to be the bottleneck.

You're absolutely right.

That's why I was speaking before about the choice of values.

Is it solidarity that's going to prevail, or the unilateral

let's say solutions that try to construct

fortresses, national fortresses?

It is certainly not be methods that Europe would like to send

to the next generation.

Whether you like it or not, that's what's happening,

that's the reality.

Well, I think it is not a good idea to succumb to such a reality.

We must change this reality.

If you look more carefully at the last statement of the summit

in Brussels, the initial phrasing that now the borders at the Balkans

has been closed has been omitted, because that would be a unilateral

decision without reference to previous decisions

of the European organs.

I think we're still trying to find a solution.

A solution is not closing ours elves behind walls, it's not

going to work, it's not worked in the States with this huge wall

that Donald Trump thinks is going to resolve all issues

of migration, it's not going to work in Europe.

The point is this is in the context of the deal, the so-called deal,

which isn't really a deal, with Turkey.

The idea being that no more do you allow the migration

across Europe towards the West, you start the process of putting

those people back into Turkey.

They call it the one for one deal where "irregular migrants" will be

returned to Turkey and for every Syrian irregular migrant that goes

back to Turkey, a Syrian will be taken through formal processes

by the European Union member states and given a home

inside the European Union.

That's the idea, but do you trust the Turks,

amongst others, to make that deal work?

It's a very complicated issue because it has many overlapping

dimensions, ethical, we have sort of discussed that,

legal, there's the Geneva Convention, it's not allowed

according to this convention to send back people without examining

individually their requests for asylum.

And there are also practical issues.

I agree with the general idea that we must build capacity

in Turkey in order to receive refugees.

Because at the end of the day, we must have in mind that these

people belong to a country, Syria, and it would be in their best

interests to be close to that country.

In this case, when the civil war ends, they will be

in a position to return.

So I don't object to the solution that Turkey must play

a more crucial role.

But after all, the devil is hidden in the details.

We must work along these lines in order exactly not

to violate our legal responsibilities under the Geneva

Convention.

And also the ethical, moral responsibilities we have.

You talk about devil in the detail, my goodness, there's lots of devils

in this detail!

We will talk about the law in a minute but you mentioned

practical issues.

Let's face it, there are tens of thousands of migrants

on your territory today, we know there are 13,000 that

are camped out in terrible, atrocious conditions

on the border with Macedonia.

How on earth is the Greek government going to round up those people,

if that's what you're supposed to do under this deal,

and make sure they all go back to Turkey.

Without the use of force and threats it seems to me impossible

for you to do that?

Well, it's not our obligation to send them back to Turkey,

I mean the existing 30,000 or 35,000 in Greece.

They are still valid, the previous decisions

of the European organs that provide for resettlement,

the localisation in the jargon of Brussels, for these people.

According to our population, if the whole of Europe

is going to receive 1 million refugees, we could receive

and integrate 30,000 of them, this is the analogy,

practically 2% is the population of Greece, vis-a-vis the whole

population of Europe.

It's clear we cannot handle all these massive flows

coming to us.

That's why I was referring to the necessary solidarity

of the other European states, which is not just a moral,

it's a legal obligation under under the European treaties.

I'm not sure from that answer, what are you telling me

is going to happen for example to the 30,000 people currently

in the Idomeni camp close to the Macedonian border.

What will happen to them?

First we are trying to assure they are going to remain

in conditions that are humanly accessible.

You are absolutely right, the conditions of life for these

people are atrocious.

Idomeni was never meant to be a place where these people...

They have gathered there as they have gathered in The Jungle

of Calais hoping they will cross the borders, exactly as in France

they are hoping to cross the sea and arrive in the UK.

We must insist that these people are going to be treated humanely,

and then find a way out to Europe, because they don't want

to stay in Greece.

Minister, you're not...

I understand your points.

You're painting for me a picture of what you believe should happen

in Europe but it doesn't seem to me to bear any connection to reality.

You talk about Europeans stepping up to the plate

and accepting their collective responsibility.

We know last year, the EU Commission put forward a proposal

to redistribute by quotas 160,000 refugees.

Hardly any of those quotas have been filled.

I spoke to the Bulgarian Deputy Prime Minister the other day,

her country promised to take thousands of refugees.

You know how many they actually took?

Two.

And the Hungarians are saying they won't take any at all.

So don't live in a fantasy world, live in a real world.

The real world is there aren't going to be quotas acceptable

to most Europeans.

I don't agree with you and I have two points.

First, that it remains a legal obligation for the other states

to respect a decision that has never been implemented.

These 160,000 immigrants are still, in theory, waiting to find places

in other European countries.

Second, it is not easy, it is not feasible to use with force

the number of refugees that are now in Greece.

I have just read a recent statement from the Home Office

and the Secretary of State in the UK that even in the UK it is not

possible to expel the illegal immigrants there.

So if you cannot handle the much more fewer numbers of emigrants

in the UK, how can you imagine we can do that alone

without European support?

The thing is, I don't imagine you can.

So many of the words that have been spoken since that Brussels summit

are wishful rather than practical and real.

That's my question to you, how Greece is going to manage

when so many people are saying, "Oh, this is the idea,

the deal is going to work," there are lots of people,

including the Secretary General of the Council of Europe,

including the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, Saying it would be

illegal for you and other European authorities to force a mass

expulsion of the migrants from your territory.

It would simply be illegal.

I fully agree, that's why we're not going to proceed in such a way.

I mentioned before that according to the Geneva Convention,

that is the push back without examining individual

demands is illegal.

I mentioned also that it is also immoral.

I think we must distinguish between realism and cynicism.

It's a cynical decision to say that's it, Greece must face

the problems, its problems, alone.

Imagine that is undermining simultaneously two things.

The European project as a whole, essentially the idea of common

solidarity and common projections for the future.

And secondly, even more importantly, the understanding

we have about ourselves.

It's not about Syrians, it's about us, what kind of people,

what kind of Europeans and human beings do we want to be?

The problem is partly you're assuming a solidarity from the rest

of the European Union with Greece, and I would put it to you,

over the last few years, and certainly last few months,

the notion of solidarity from the rest of Europe with Greece

is quite tenuous, not least because in recent times we've had

the Austrian government and a few other governments too suggesting

you guys are the problem because you're incapable

of protecting your own and Europe's borders, and therefore you should be

cut out of the Schengen freedom of movement area.

So many Europeans are pointing the finger of blame directly at you.

There are xenophobic reactions, I don't deny that.

But first we must make clear that maritime borders are not the same

as land borders.

We are facing a situation in which boats full of women

and children are coming.

The only solution to stop them before entering our land is to drown

them, to sink the boats, drown children and women,

that's already happening, many hundreds have already been drowned.

Is it the solution we must face?

How can we live by that?

Secondly, countries have adopted this solution are sliding down

a very slippery slope.

We have seen in the recent elections in Slovakia for instance,

despite the efforts of the Prime Minister to adopt some

of these xenophobic agendas of the extreme right wingers,

it is the neofascist parties that basically have profited.

It has gained closer to 10%.

For the first time it is in the Slovakian Parliament.

So, whatever we choose to be, it has clear repercussions not just

to what is going to happen in Greece but to what is going to happen

in European countries, in your places, and you must choose,

you must have to choose if you're going to have an option of,

let's say, solidarity, the future of all Europe,

or a version of neofascism and xenophobia.

Solidarity is in very short supply, not least with you in Greece,

but let me ask you about a different aspect of this crisis and then

I want to move on to your economy.

Finally, on the migration question, with the European Union appears

to be doing is offering a huge number of carrots to Turkey

in exchange for agreement to this one for one swap of refugees.

These include fast tracking of their European Union membership

application, also visa free travel for all Turks by the summer.

It is fair to say you in Greece have a somewhat difficult

relationship, traditionally, with the government in Turkey.

Do you have real confidence in the Turks' good faith

at this time?

Listen, our Prime Minister has been yesterday in Turkey,

exactly, trying to find the devil in the details.

And promote a viable solution to this draft project.

There are two things.

One, we should not make concessions to undemocratic solutions in Turkey,

because we know there are problems there with freedom of press

and other democratic liberties and freedoms.

But Turkey is a key factor for the settlement of this problem.

So, we must work with the Turkish government, but having also in mind

that to have European values that we must also

cherish and protect.

In a word, do you trust the government of Prime Minister

Erdogan?

It is the government of Turkey and it is with them

that we must work together.

There is nobody else there.

That wasn't a yes.

That was very much not a yes from you.

Well...

It is a yes.

We cannot export democracy to other countries,

even if we would like to see a more democratic and more

European-friendly environment to them.

What is valid for Iraq is valid for Turkey as well.

We must touch upon that as well.

You are in Athens today and so are a very important group

of visitors from the IMF, the eurozone and the

European Central Bank, all of whom have a responsibility

to monitor the third bailout.

It is all very confusing, but basically the Greek economy

is still in a terrible mess, you still desperately need tens

of billions of euros in support from outside lenders

and they are saying, you are not going to get the third

bailout completed unless you deliver new structural reforms,

much greater reforms than your government

is currently promising.

Are you prepared now to say on HARDtalk that you are prepared

for new structural reform?

First of all, it is true what you have just said

about the visitors.

I am going to meet them after just an hour or so.

In the framework of the negotiations we have with them,

I have two remarks.

First is that this bailout programme was not mainly aimed to protect

the Greek economy, but from contaminating the eurozone.

In early 2010 and even recently.

My second remark is that it is proven by the fact that only a very

small percentage of these billions are put into the Greek economy,

about 80-90% is going back to the lenders.

It was basically the European, the German and French banks that

have been saved.

Let's not get too stuck on that.

These representatives want you to go further with your pension reforms.

Your government has basically tried to avoid cutting pensions further

by making some major changes to social insurance and payroll

taxes that the message from the lenders is,

you have to do more on pensions.

Are you willing?

We are very much willing to transform our social insurance

system, exactly because it was not an efficient one, even in the past.

This is the message I'm going to convey to you,

that first of all we're going to respect our commitments,

the agreement of July was for us, a first compromise, but it

has our signature and we must respect our signature.

But on the other hand, we found that if we just proceed

to these engagements without trying to include them in a more broad

framework of reforms, we would just apply neoliberal

policies with which we do not agree.

So, what we are trying to do in terms of reform, we're

going to respect our engagement to reduce by 1% of the GDP,

the expenditure.

Not only because it is within what they want,

but because we have huge deficits, we have lost 25% of our national

wealth since 2010.

But instead of just following the guidelines,

it is crucial that instead of just following the guidelines of the EU,

we are trying to apply sweeping reform that also includes social

justice, a national pension that will be financed by taxes,

not contributions, for example, that will guarantee a better

redistribution of wealth within our system.

Right, now, minister, you have laid out what you are trying

but the trouble is you seem to have

achieved the worst of both worlds.

Because with your version of reform, the international lenders don't

believe it goes far enough while your own people,

Syriza supporters who put you in power are furious

with you because they believe you are now betraying their interests.

We've had farmers on the streets with demonstrations,

the self-employed claiming you are killing them with your hikes

and social insurance charges for the self-employed.

The people of Greece no longer believe in Syriza,

that is the problem.

Well, first of all, it is not true that with all our lenders,

we have strong disagreements.

Truth is, with the Europeans we are very close to finding

mutually accepted compromise.

It is the IMF which insists on further measures and it is now

the IMF that is isolated, not us.

There is a huge difference.

CROSSTALK.

You need the IMF more than they need you and let's not get stuck on them,

let's talk about the Greek people.

I never thought we would see your government be assailed by street

protests in the same way past governments were,

but now the people of Greece are saying to you that

you have the worst of every world.

You have bowed to the international pressure, you are in austerity

and your economy is frankly in worse shape than ever.

It is exactly the opposite, what we are doing.

It is true that we did not deliver as fast as we have promised

and it is also true that we had to do a very painful

compromise for us in July.

But I remind you that after that, we asked the people by new elections

to reiterate their confidence in us.

It is now really the worst moment of our effort, exactly

because we have to take measures and the results are not visible

to the Greek society.

You are doing your best to sound optimistic with me,

but you're also quite a frank politician.

Isn't it time to admit, with your national debt at over 180%

of GDP, which is clearly unsustainable, with unemployment

that is still around 25%.

Isn't it time to say, look, let's cut our losses,

default on our debts and get out of the eurozone?

We have the same data but different conclusions.

From this data, I have the conclusion that the austerity

policies, the five that were applied last year were disasters,

and we must change the makes of these policies.

It is exactly what we're trying to do in a very difficult situation,

because we have signed this MOU.

On the other hand, we think it is possible to see

a different Europe.

Still, this is the discussion we had last July, I believe the real choice

is not a national one, it is between different

parts of Europe.

Different projects of Europe.

One considers austerity the only possible solution.

There is another alternative for a social Europe,

more faithful to its social European model that we used to cherish.

That is the choice for you but for right now, we have to end.

We are out of time.

Thank you so much, Minister George Katrougalos

for joining me from Athens, thanks a lot.