Susanne Bier, Film Director HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. The whole world is aware of

the fact that the movie industry is disproportionately white and male,

thanks to the Oscars this year. But, maybe things are changing. I guess

today is one of your's direct does, Susanne Bier, who already has an

Oscar and a reputation which brings in offers from the major US studios

-- directors. How hard has been to challenge those Hollywood

stereotypes? Susanne Bier, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you. You have been making movies for quite a long time now,

would you say your approach has transformed over the years? I think

experience does change your approach a bit. My whole approach has been

basically the same all along, I am deeply interested in human

relations. I think that has come out in my films and it still does. If I

were to ask you to define the core, would you put the intimacy of

personal relationships? Yes, the space between human beings. Rather

than a commitment to a certain style, a lavish production values or

any particular genre? It's the humanity that gets you? It is

thought of the exciting things that happen between human beings. How

that reflects in the physical presence. Like, what happens when

you sit down? What is actually on your mind? I find that deeply

interesting. That brings me to consider your career. You first came

to real prominence in Denmark and Europe as part of the School of

Danish filmmaking which was so is bad, saw a real life. There was no

lighting, no exotic locations, it was about the here and now and being

real. Is that still something which means a lot to you? I think that to

be set off austerity rules, you strip any kind of deal making from

any icing on the cake. You get rid of the artifice? You do. You only

have the storyline and the characters. That brings me back to

what you said at the beginning, it's about the human is that you really

care about, that is what your films are all about? I actually did come

to prominence with a comedy which came before this. I came from

somewhere else, something much broader. Why did you get into

dogma. --? You are the founders of .my, you now has a manifesto which

said you mess about, the camera has to be hand-held, there can be

nothing but contemporary settings, you can't have props or create sets?

It sounds boring when you talk about it like that. But you are totally

into it at the time? I was, it is essential storytelling. Some of the

more interesting movies of the last 20 years have come out of .my. I

wouldn't want to continue with it, because I do enjoy the view

storytelling elements of the whole movie, but it did create probably

five amazing movie. You talk about breakthrough moments, you've had a

few. Winning a foreign language Oscar, any director's career has to

be a big moment? You cracked it, you won an Oscar. It's about a Danish

medic who works in Africa. It is perhaps a bit like sedan? He has

huge problems back in his home life in Denmark. We look at him being

faced in a dilemma -- Sudan. He is facing a warlord who has a terrible

injury, he knows this man is responsible for terrible atrocities.

I don't want you to cut it off. I can try. You can't have any weapons

in the camp. I defy that! No. Weapons and cars have got to be far

away from the camp. SPEAKING SUDANESE. This big man, he's the one

who cuts the pregnant women. He's the master. It's a harrowing movie,

and it's painted on a big canvas, in Africa as well as Denmark. Did it

feel like a real change for you, a real change of style and setting?

Africa is very special, it was very special filming in Africa. It is a

slightly bigger film, but I think I built it up. After the Wedding was

also partly shot in India. I did do a few films which were shot in

several places. I use the fact that they were shot in different places

to juxtapose the two societies. I am still preoccupied with that. Before

we finish looking back and the transitions are you made after

dogma, I want to ask one more specific thing about dogma. Lovelorn

trio was one of the founders of the dogma style. In 2011, after you won

be foreign language Oscar, he made what most people regarded as a very

offensive attack upon you and your tuition is, and even some bizarre

remarks about your Jewish heritage. You did not respond, but you knew

him and admired him. How did you feel about what he did? -- Lars von

Trier. The seniors, certain attacks you don't want to respond to because

they are so utterly repository of, and somehow, I must admit that

somehow I found those remarks are a positive and stupid and in no way

felt compelled to react. Hurtful? This was a man you had grown up with

professionally. Yes, hurtful, but I must admit that I did have... I

thought it was ridiculous. If you react to any aggression, you also

become somehow vulnerable. I didn't particularly want to feel

vulnerable. Have you spoken to him ever since? I have. Did you ask him

why? I didn't. I didn't want to. I don't, any sort of racist comment I

have no excuse for, no time for. No excuse for any kind of racism.

Obviously things which concern my person. I just don't think that

anything needs to be confronted. I have not had a conversation with

Lars von Trier about it. OK. That's between you and him. Let us now talk

about structures and away the film industry works. There has been so

much focus in the last year or two on the inability of the Hollywood

industry to reflect properly the way society is in terms of the on-screen

and offscreen involvement of women and ethnic sonorities in filmmaking.

You are a very successful woman filmmaker. Should we take your

success as a sign that things are changing for the positive? I have

been very fortunate and privilege, I have been doing the movies I really

wanted to do. Lots of women are not as fortunate. It is not because they

lack talent, it's because the industry does not invite... It

doesn't invite talented women to do what they should be doing. Why we do

because it's so inherently... The thinking is so inherently

conservative. I think it is two different things. Firstly, the kind

of movies do not reflect the diversity of our society, which they

should. Otherwise, movies as an artform will die out. It might work

as a commercial thing, but as an artform, it doesn't paint to be

diverse of society. As an artform? Yes. If you look at movies which

should be blockbusters, in 2015, 7% were made by women. I think if you

look at those kind of, even the iconic blockbuster films, they won't

be left -- less interesting having been made by women, all made by

nonwhite, non- heterosexual man. The very stereotypical and profoundly

ignorant view is that men are more inclined to and possibly better at

making movies with car chases and monsters. I don't think that's

right. I think any woman director who really wants to make a movie

like that is going to be just as good and possibly add something else

to it. I think it's a very conservative point of view. Do you

want to make that kind of movie. I would love to, the Right one. You

have a great reputation in Hollywood, why aren't you going to

the studios and saying, you want me to make a film, it might be a

compelling emotional drama. I want to do something different! -- right.

Here is the thing, I will do one, but I won't do it until I like the

script. I don't think it content needs to go down because it is a

blockbuster. To me, it needs to have substance and be elegant. Write it

yourself! May be a. If we want to take -- if women want to make

blockbusters, they need to start making some. All the blockbusters

are like, they are going to get more and more boring. You look at movies

like The Hunger Games, big commercial movies. It has very

strong female content. I think there is a kind of very innovative element

in those. But there are not many. How proactive should women be?

Jennifer Lawrence has made a huge point of the enormous pay

differential in Hollywood. The options might include top stars such

as her saying she will not make the movie until she is paid the same as

her male counterparts. You would be doing the same in terms of director

fees? Good idea. I'm being serious! I know you. -- I know you are. Yes,

I will. I know it is different. I think unfortunately a lot of women

have had a slightly more hesitant... Exactly. The traditional

view is that women are less aggressive, less assertive, less

determined to look after themselves than men are. I just find it a

little bit, if this conflict becomes about my salary, I think it is a

detour. I don't think this conflict is about my salary. I think it's

about something really profound in our society. It's about a very

conservative way of thinking about gender. I don't really want it to be

a discussion about my personal salary. Let me flickered around into

a different direction, still thinking about proactive

decision-making you and others could make and also one might call it

affirmative action, for example, there is a problem not just on

screen and the director credit but also in some of the key professions

in your industry like cinematographer and editing. Do you

see it as incumbent upon you as quite an influential director to

make a point of trying to work with females in a photographers, or

indeed female editors - being proactive about that? I have been

quite a few times in film schools, excepting students, and I have been

very key particularly with when there are very few female director

of photography. I think that is the way to do it. I think it is sort of

saying, I want to work with a female director of photography, I need to

work with the right director of photography, like the production or

the studio needs to find the right director for a project. You can't

say that thing is necessarily, that specific thing necessarily needs a

woman, or for that sake, aiming at a minority, but as a general thing you

have to totally work for it. Do you understand the difference? Yes, I do

understand the difference. Interesting there are in

initiatives, like we do it together, a bunch of influential actors and

women in the movie industry who have got together to try to push

productions which are driven by women. I wonder whether again you

might be interested in joining that kind of initiative? Yes, I would be

interested. I would also be interested in joining an initiative

where storytelling, where stories which are, at which sort of

address, which are more interesting for women, I mean, all of that, all

things which have to do with the elements of society which reflects

that women are half of the population, even a bit more, which

is not reflected in the world of movies. Nor in TV yet but TV is

better. Yes. Do you think there is a way to define subject matter and the

treatment of stories, where you can say that would appeal more to women

than men? Can you be that gender oriented in the way you feel about

stories and storytelling? I am sure that if you go to the studios, they

will have it, you will go to a meeting and they will say, this

doesn't interest men, Inc will interest women. I would call that

stereotyping. I know. There is stereotyping -- it will interest

women. I don't think that particular stories are gender driven but I do

think that there are ways of treating stories which could be

slightly gender different. This conversation we are having is

obviously premise to an extent on the idea that still the movie

business, and Hollywood, are a dominant force, but you've alluded

to the fact that actually these days some of the most creative projects

when it comes to film and video are coming out of television, not out of

the movie business. You have just been working on a real big budget,

rather lavish production, at which the BBC is involved with, and

adaptation of the Night Manager from John McKay. This is a moment where

the English intelligence officer is probing a key character, Jonathan

Pine, who will be recruited to work deep undercover, trying to nail an

arms dealer -- LeCarre. So, why did you do it? Why does Jonathan Pine,

respected hotelier, risk is career by snitching on his guests? I don't

know. Yes, you do. Something stirred, I suppose. What stirred?

Listen, if a man is selling a private arsenal to an Egyptian crook

and he is English and you are English, and those weapons can cause

a lot of pain to a lot of people, then you just do it. S anyone would

do it. Plenty wouldn't. Another compelling story. People will have

to find it what happens. There is six hours of this. It cost an awful

lot of money to make. Do you find, you know, having the extra time

allows you to do things that the two hours of a movie doesn't allow you

to do? It definitely does give you a space for richness of the

characters. You can kind of do small detours, which is not necessarily

just tied up to the plot in the strict sense that usually like a

feature film is, but also it is just such rich material. Is your future

in TV not the movies? Not necessarily. It is different. It is

like the difference between a short story and a novel. A short story has

its own beauty but a novel has a wealth of details which is just

undeniable. I want to end by taking you back to the beginning. We

started talking about Denmark and your background. It strikes me that

you have made a point of saying that you love the way in which Denmark is

becoming in your view over the years more multicultural and open to

outside influence. And yet right now in Denmark, as in much of Europe,

the debate is actually in a sense precisely the opposite, about how to

keep people out. The worry is all about immigration and the effect it

is having on Denmark. Do you feel that that might be something you are

going to want to address, that debate, in movies in the future? I

think, possibly. No, I will address it, but I think I might address it

from a different place. I am a second-generation immigrant. Your

parents actually fled the Nazis. Yes, they did and they came to

Denmark. We were taken care of by the Danish people. I am eternally

grateful for that. And I think I would rather address the issue by

somehow reminding everyone that there is... That it does help and

that there is a kind of kindness which is fruitful. The question is

whether your country is ready to listen to that message right now.

The second biggest party in the Danish parliament and we spoke to a

senior representative on this programme the other day, the

People's Party is it is there to say very clearly anti- in the

People's Party is it is there to say very clearly anti- in --

anti-immigrant and strongly nationalist. I am sure you heard

about the... Yes, which we discussed. The thing is, that law

isn't actually implemented, meaning that the police have said that

they... For people who don't know, assets over 10,000 krona can be

taken from incoming refugees, migrants, when they arrive in

Denmark, namely assets are taken to help pay for the care these people

will receive in Denmark. It has been hugely controversial. Yes, and it

is... It is not something which... I think it is a very frightening and

uncomfortable law. But I want to say that the police have... The police

can't actually... They don't know anything about jewellery so they

have said they don't know how to assess it. I don't want to get into

the detail of the law but whether you as a filmmaker Phil inclined to

get involved in here and now political debates -- filmmaker feel

inclined. I don't want to get involved in actual political debate

because whatever I will do will come out a year after and whatever I do,

if it is tied up to is very concrete political situation will feel dated

and old. And also what really interests me is I am not political,

I am interested in human dilemmas. I will go to the core of it. I am

interested in the moral issues. I am interested in asking you how you are

going to react in a specific situation. But doing actual politics

on film for me doesn't really work. Because it just seems dated want the

comes out. We have to sadly ended there, but Susanne Bier thank you

for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.