Elias Bou Saab, Lebanon's Education Minister HARDtalk

The fallout from the conflict in Syria is threatening to

destabilise one of the Middle East's most delicate nations, Lebanon.

It hosts around 1.3 million Syrian refugees, more per capita than any

This places huge pressure on its people and government,

as well as adding more strain on its fragile sectarian mix.

My guest today is Elias Bou Saab, Lebanon's education minister.

What is the impact of the Syrian conflict on Lebanon

Elias Bou Saab, welcome to HARDtalk. Were you surprised by the unexpected

announcement by Russia that it was ending its military operations in

Syria and withdrawing? Well, I wasn't surprised, especially as we

know they won't going to continue to fight Daesh or ISIS alongside the

rest of the world, and that means they will have a presents to keep on

bombing ISIS. The pullout decision is probably a step towards telling

the world that now we should move into a political solution in Syria.

We should start supporting either side, the push for a political

solution. President Putin said they had largely met their objectives. Is

he right? What you that objective was, keep Assad in power? We don't

see it that way in Lebanon. We have an enemy called ISIS, Daesh, and it

is not a coincidence that this enemy is the enemy of Bashar al-Assad, of

the Russians and also is the enemy of the West, so that we are all

fighting the same enemy. If they push them away, pushed Daesh away

from certain regions, I think that what President Putin is talking

about. But they are still there. Islamic State, Daesh. Right. They

were making progress at a certain point, towards the Lebanese border

even. They took over most of the parts in Iraq, most of the northern

parts. I think the Russian interference did really stop that

and turn the equation around. But they are still there. Now that they

have withdrawn arguably they could start re- consolidating their

position, couldn't they? If the West keeps Daesh strong and if they

decide to not participate alongside everybody else to keep on attacking

those extremists, those terrorists that are not a threat to Syria but

the region and the world. And Bashar al-Assad, keep him in power? In the

opposition says he can't be part of any transition. Let me be honest

with you. This is a country of democracy. We all want democracy.

Let's ensure that there is a proper election in Syria and let the Syrian

people decide who they want in power. But let's make sure there's a

proper election in and leave it -- in Syria and leave it to the Syrian

people to decide. We've tried to impart democracy on a country and we

saw the results. We cannot do that by force. We need to set the stage

for proper election, there are elections, and let the people decide

what they want. Lebanon, it is five years since the Syrian war began and

Lebanon has paid a heavy price. You have 1.3 million registered refugees

with the United Nations, but arguably your government says that

you have more than that, plus the 500,000 Palestinian refugees. Now

with the Syrian refugees is the burden too great for Lebanon? It is.

Lebanon is a country of 4 million people. When you say 1.5 refugees

after the Syrian crisis and 500,000 from Palestine before, that's 2

million refugees in Lebanon. Out of a country of 4 million this is quite

a lot. This is not something Lebanon can handle on its own. Lebanon has

its own crisis financially and economically. We all know the

situation. Our education system, our health-care system, everything is

suffering. Add to it everything we were going through on top. These

refugees, the crisis... I once described it as a Harry Kane or

earthquake that is ongoing for the past five years. -- hurricane.

Usually the rest of the world helps after an earthquake or hurricane.

They go to say, let us deal with the aftermath. In Lebanon we are leaving

this earthquake on a daily basis. What do you say to the Europeans

when EU was arguing over what resettling 160,000 Syrian refugees

in Europe. I understand their fear but at the same time I will tell

them there's one thing we can do, I heard on HARDtalk before many

arguments from Turkey and others about how to deal with it. There's

only one way. I disagree with what they are saying, share the refugees

and distribute them around Europe, that's not the right thing. The only

right thing to do is to make sure we have a political solution in Syria

and stop the refugees leaving the country and make sure they can

safely return home. Everybody agrees that but how quickly can be done and

how are the refugees handled in the meantime? You say your country is

hosting this great number and finding that it is adding to much

pressure. Why isn't Lebanon party to the 1951 refugee Convention? Why

have you not signed up to that? Because that would assist greatly in

your receiving assistance that you need. You know, Lebanon is very

different in the Middle East. Lebanon, with different religions

and groups, a lot of complexity politically and other ways. For us

to take on refugees and change the balance, that would change the

entire country and this is something that many people are feeling. If you

want to put it that way, the Christians in Lebanon is to be 50%

of the country, even 60% at some points. Now they are down to 35%, if

not less. If you take on the refugees and deal with the situation

like any other treaty, the Palestinians before and now the

Syrians, the country will change. That's the big fear. The Foreign

Minister, who, like you is also a member of Lebanon's Christian

community, as the large number of Syrian refugees is rapidly changing

the demographics and it could present an existential crisis for

Lebanon, because they are by and large the Syrians coming in Sunni

Muslims and they are just one part of the sectarian make-up in Lebanon.

But doesn't that sound a bit mean? You are saying, we don't want these

Sunni Muslims coming in our midst but they will drown out the number

of Christians? That's what we hear some European saying. Not only us as

Christians are saying that. Even the Lebanese Muslim Sunnis and Shiites

as agreed at Lebanon cannot be changed demographically. But that's

what the Europeans are saying. Some Hungarians and Babaji and are

saying, we don't want Muslims in our midst and it doesn't sound very

generous, especially when Syria posted a lot of refugees from the

region, including you yourself. You were there in the early 80s when

there were problems in Lebanon. Correct. In 1982 during the Israeli

invasion I have to go to Syria. And you were received there. And the

Syrians received many refugees. Absolutely. But it was organised.

They gave us passes to stay and then we returned back home. We did not

stay in the country, none of us. Now the situation is different. It is

unlike in Europe. In Lebanon that power is shared among those three

religions. If we change that... That the Muslim Sunnis and Shiites and

the Christians? Yes. Basically now also the constitution is we have

equal power in the government, so we have 50% of the Parliament Muslims

and 50% Christians and 50% Muslims. That will change. If that changes,

the entire constitution should be changed. Now there is a big fear.

The Christians left Iraq. They left Syria, because of Daesh and ISIS,

all of the horrible things. The only Christian country that is left is

Lebanon. If we do the same to Lebanon, that means we are changing

the entire demography of the region. Could it erupt into... We saw the

terrible civil war in Lebanon in the 90s. Could this reignite tensions in

the country and upset this balance? For sure, it was Lebanon now can

only survive by accepting one another. Accepting the situation as

it is, saying that we have shared power and we need to continue living

side by side, Muslims and Christians, and remain as an Arab

country and work accordingly. But why can't you say we are all Arabs,

it doesn't matter what religion you are. Surely you are reinforcing

these kind of divisions by saying we are Arab Christians, we don't want

Arab Muslims. Why do you just say we are all Muslims? It is easily said

for anybody in the West. An easy thing for them to say, why don't we

say that? I explain a little bit. The Muslims and Christians... The

equal power that we share in Lebanon is unique in the region. Lebanon is

the only country with a Christian president, although we don't have

one for the past two years. You mentioned that. At the recent London

conference that Lebanon attended, you asked for about $11 billion over

the next five years, loans and straightforward aid in order for you

to cope with the refugees. But people are looking at the way the

Syrian refugees are being treated in Lebanon and you know there is some

discontent about the way they are being received. I disagree. The

Syrians are treated in Lebanon like the Lebanese. We open the doors for

all Syrians, we open our schools for all Syrians, we open our homes for

all Syrians, without even any help from the West or anybody else. The

Lebanese people receive the Syrian people without organisation, without

planning. This may take the country down sooner or later economically,

financially and any other way. For that reason the government has said

that we need to put a plan in place before we break down and if we break

down it will not be limited to Lebanon. That would affect the

region and eventually you will see the refugees losing hope, having no

opportunity, no future and they will end up travelling and coming to

Europe and other places. Let me explain what I meant by the

criticisms. Human watch report in January cold, I just want to be

treated like a person, talked about the fact that there are entry

requirements for Syrians coming into Lebanon who wants to stay. They have

to register and these fees for registration are extremely high for

-- extremely high. This has driven a lot of the Syrians underground, got

they don't have the means in order to register, or they need to sponsor

and they can't do that. Human Rights Watch says this is really pushing

refugees underground and this has led to their exploitation, either in

the workforce, because they are working illegally, or by land

routes. That is not accurate, let me tell you why. The government decided

to put these measures after we reached over 1.5 million refugees,

when we set Lebanon can no longer handle the situation. This was

implemented by newcomers. We said, how can we stop... This was in

January last year? Yes. Like any other country, any refugee, don't

they need to register somewhere? The government should not have an

account of who and where -- who is where? That's what we tried to do.

Prior to that it was purely chaotic and we don't know where the refugees

are, where they are living, what they're doing, what are the exact

numbers. For that reason the government did what we are saying.

Put that aside. After the London conference, that was hosted in

February to support the refugees crisis in the region, Lebanon has

come up with a paper and we said we will be looking at ways to

facilitate the livelihood of those refugees. Because they can't work.

They have to sign a pledge to say they can't work. Unless they get a

proper work permit. Sponsored by Lebanese? Which you will find

anywhere. If anyone wants to work in the UK, they don't... But these are

people fleeing. A lawyer from an NGO defending civil rights and liberties

as many Syrians want to but can't acquire any legal status. They don't

have valid identification. She says Paul refugees in particular card

signed in the rental contracts and she says many Syrians stay in camps,

how can they provide the documents? And she says many stay indoors for

days to avoid the police, many are paid -- pay hundreds of dollars for

forged -- forged passports and she says at least a are arrested each

month. Those paying British money do need passports in Lebanon because

Syrians to meet passports. Let me tell you why they need passports,

because we need them to go to Turkey and from there to go to Europe. That

has nothing to do with Lebanon. This is not the Lebanon situation we are

dealing with. Also, most of the workforce in Europe, by far they are

Syrians and they are working illegally and we know that and we

are letting it happen. Turning a blind eye? Because historically it

has been like that, even prior to the crisis. We depend a lot on the

workforce, on the manpower, from Syria. Why not let them work

legally? You are education minister. You have 500,000 Syrian refugee

children who are in Lebanon and you have put them in your school. -- by

making teachers work double shifts and all the rest of it, it was you

have to wonder 50,000 Lebanese children in schools.

We have 250,000 Lebanese students in schools. Already we accommodated

over 200,000 Syrian children this year. We opened all of the schools

and a double shift system, warning an afternoon. We are doing

everything we can to assist in this crisis -- morning. Why not let

Syrians qualified as teachers work as teachers? You have half a million

more children now. The unemployment rate in direct this year is 11% --

Europe. It went down from last year. In Lebanon, after the Syrian

crisis, we are over 20% unemployment rate for the Lebanese. We first took

on this government, let me explain, it was very difficult for us to come

and say we want to help and we want to take on these refugees and put

them in the classrooms because we were getting opposition and a lot of

political attacks. As Minister of education in Lebanon, I said if I

have to be attacked for putting these drilling in schools, that is

fine. I'm prepared to be attacked on that because every child belongs in

the classroom. As long as they are in Lebanon, their place is the

classroom to stop but we have to take into consideration that the

hold unity is suffering. I can't tell the teachers in Lebanon to stay

unemployed. But if you have more children, it makes sense to relax

the restrictions on Syrians working and maybe have Syrian teachers to

help relieve some of the pressure. But by law, we cannot have Syrian

teachers instead of Lebanese teachers. The Syrian teachers do not

teach the Lebanese curriculum. One concerned you have voiced is that

the refugee crisis has allowed militants in any reckon there are up

to 3% of the refugee flow including radicals. David Cameron visited

Lebanon, I did not teach in that context. I was asked a question, if

I believed there were extremists amongst the refugees, and I said in

Lebanon on, not all refugees are extremist. Maybe 2% of them could be

because in the Lebanese camps, we had some of them who went out of the

camps, kidnapped Lebanese soldiers, they belonged to Daesh and Isis and

whatever, and they came out of the camps where the refugees were it

attacked the Lebanese army on more than one occasion. So yes they could

be. In November last year in a core part of Beirut, you had an attack

that killed more than 40 and injured 200, which was claimed by Daesh or

the so-called Islamic State. But there is another thought, which is

that there are some Sunni Muslims in Lebanon on who are Lebanese who are

turning to extremism because they see the Hezbollah fighting force,

which is Shia, supporting Bashar al-Assad in Syria, so they think we

are going to join the extremists, be Sunni extremists, and a professor

said well over a year ago that Sunnis are reacting to Shias and are

defecting to Isil. Definitely there is a conflict between Muslim Sunnis

and she is in the region. We know that and there is no doubt. --

Shias. Why is Hezbollah in Syria? The extremes there are reaching the

Lebanese borders. They are attacking and bombing areas where Shi'ites are

living. They send car bombs and whatever over the last few years,

and that is basically why you find this involvement in Syria, because

it is from both sides. A lot of people don't like it, into a

Christian member of the free patriot movement, and you are in alliance

with Hezbollah as part of a ten party block in Parliament. Are you

content with that alliance, that Hezbollah is fighting alongside the

Shah al-Assad and he is responsible for killing ten times as many people

as Daesh are, according to many accounts? -- Bashar al-Assad. We are

in alliance with ten parties, not just Hezbollah. The comfortable with

that? It is a Lebanese political party, and they liberated the

Lebanese. They happen to be fighting alongside Bashar al-Assad. That is

my super question. When we made our alliance with most of the Lebanese

parties, and made the original with Hezbollah, it was silly related to

Lebanon. -- simply. We do not talk about interfering with anyone

outside the Lebanese border. You can't turn a blind eye to the fact

they are supporting Bashar al-Assad in Syria, and since he has killed so

many people, his forces have killed so many people, does that make you

feel comfortable? To be honest, if I want to talk about the Syrian

conflict more and that his forces killed to many people, we also have

to talk about what Daesh and Isil have killed in the Syrian people.

This war is a dirty game. Everyone is killing everyone. If everybody

stops interfering in Syria, and I'm talking about everyone, then yes,

Lebanon will say no need for anyone... The former Prime Minister,

Sunni, has called on forces to be pulled from Syria to prevent a

so-called Holocaust. But are you not worried that countries like Saudi

Arabia, who are obviously opposed to Bashar al-Assad and the sheer force,

Hezbollah, act like Iran, which receives assistance every year, they

say we're going to draw not give you the $3 billion assistance to the

Lebanese army. -- Shia force, Hezbollah, backed like Iran. That

will hit you where it hurts, it in the pocket. It is not because of

that only. We're not concerned exit will hit is in the pocket. We are

concerned because we are an Arab country and don't like to see our

relationship with the Arab states and countries going right. We would

like to have the best relationship with Saudi Arabia and the rest of

the Gulf states -- countries going route. We have different players,

different sectors. We can not make one decision just on our own. If we

don't do it collectively, the entire country is accurate. We need to

understand and make friends understand that is a situation and

at the same time make all of the decisions that are in favour of

stemming with the Arab states. We need to stand with Saudi Arabia

against anyone interfering in their own affairs from within or from

outside. Finally, protests in the street in Lebanon against the

rubbish disposal, sectarianism, what hope for peace, prosperity and unity

in Lebanon on briefly? Well, hope for peace, we have Syria's political

support from the West and international committee. If they are

serious about assisting Lebanon, they should help us financially and

politically to have a stable country, to build our government,

and to give future hope for all of the young people in Lebanon and

assist us with the crisis we are going through right now because of

the Syrian refugees. Ban, Lebanon's education minister, thank you for

coming on HARDtalk -- Elias Bou Saab.