Sevgi Akarcesme, editor in chief Today's Zaman HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. Journalism in Turkey is a precarious business.

Earlier this month, the country's biggest selling newspaper was

forcibly taken over by the government, a host of journalists

have been locked up for insulting the nation and its institutions, or

aiding terrorists. All this in a nation beset with diplomatic

security and humanitarian challenges. My guest today is Sevgi

Akarcesme, editor of the English language Today's Zaman newspaper.

Until, that is, the state looted her out. So, how close is Turkey to

authoritarian rule? -- booted. Sevgi Akarcesme, in Brussels,

welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Explained to me first of all why you

are talking to me from Brussels, when your life, your career, your

job, are all in Turkey? Even though officially I am still be

editor-in-chief of Today's Zaman, I have been dismissed by the new

administration, which was hand-picked by the government and

installed the newspaper. I was concerned about my personal freedoms

and safety in Turkey and thought it would be a wise decision to leave

the country and make our voice heard around the world from Brussels. Let

me stop you there. When I just said you were essentially booted out of

your job by the state, was I exaggerating? You could still be in

your job, could you? Not really, because as soon as the new

administration took over by means of a brutal police raid on March four,

they immediately dismissed the editor-in-chief of Zaman, along with

the former editor-in-chief of Today's Zaman, but for some reason I

haven't received any notification of dismissal. It must be a matter of

time. I personally would not prefer to work with such an administration,

because as soon as they started, took over, they started to implement

censorship. They immediately removed critical columnists, and they began

to assess the news stories in the following days. I had asked them to

remove my name from the byline. Since the takeover, my name does not

appear in the byline any more. I don't appear this to sound too

judgemental, but wasn't it perhaps a bit cowardly of you to leave your

job and walk away from a very difficult situation, when you could

have stayed and fought for your principles and for the independence

of your newspaper? That is a good question, and they don't judge you

for such a question, you are supposed to ask me difficult

questions. Given the pattern in Turkey in terms of what is happening

to journalists in the last couple of years, I don't see any reason why I

should wait to be detained, imprisoned, or banned from

travelling abroad when there is no newspaper left. Technically, even

though the newsroom remains the same, the newspaper has been

controlled by other people, prepared by other people, and they receive

approval from higher authorities for any story they run. Technically,

there is no newspaper for me to run any more. I am imagining you are in

touch with colleagues who are still at the paper, not everyone has

walked out. I have seen Tweets from journalists suggesting they have

lost access to internal servers, e-mail accounts have been closed.

That is true, I was there during all of that happening, I didn't leave

until the end of the weekend, and I had to deal with the new

administration. But I realise that these are not the type of people I

can have a civilised communication with. Were their armed security

personnel inside the newsroom? Not inside the newsroom, but in the

corridor is right outside the newsroom, inside the building, at

the gates. They did not even allow us to enter with our own cars,

because the building was cordoned by the riot police. There were many

policeman, and my colleagues had to work under heavy police presence.

Going back to your previous question, unfortunately higher

executives are under no risk, and I see no reason why I should wait to

be imprisoned just like others. I can fight when I am free, and I am

of sound mind, so it doesn't mean that I quit my struggle. This is the

best form of struggling, trying to make our voice heard in the world. I

wonder whether there is a certain amount of rhetoric and hype going

on. You have said that the decision squarely sits at the top of the

Turkish government. You have called Recep Tayyip Erdogan a despotic

leader. Others in your newsroom, another Zaman journalist, said this

wreck of a sense -- this represents the end of democracy. Auntie going a

bit far? The security forces moved in the Qusair was a court order

suggesting that there was legal permission for the state to take

over the running of the Zaman newspaper group -- aren't you going

a bit far? I personally read the court order, and the court order,

which was clearly politically motivated, because those specific

courts are... There are other examples, the arrest of other

journalists are directly controlled by the government, by the new

regime. This court accuses our newspaper of terrorist propaganda

and links to terrorist organisations that do not exist. I do not consider

the court order legitimate. I do not consider the decision to take over

our newspaper legitimate. I do not consider these trustees as the

rightful owners of the newspaper. They simply took our newspaper away

from us, and this is the culmination of violation of freedoms in Turkey.

You can choose to label the court is illegitimate in this case, I

understand from your perspective why you are doing that. But the bottom

line is, you say there is no evidence whatsoever. They say, and I

am just reading now from the court decision, that there is " a strong

suspicion that publications of Zaman are linked to terrorism, and that

this operation is part of a number of ongoing investigations on the F

ET oh terrorist organisation". They say that is establishing a parallel

structure apart from the state apparatus for the use of violence.

First of all, there is no such proof of that terrorist organisation

existing. They could not come up with any single story about

terrorist propaganda or that praises any terrorist activity. There are no

links to terrorism in our newspaper, and there is no single evidence. If

they argue that they are taking over the newspaper because of links to

terrorism, they have to come up with at least one evidence, right? I

guess what this gets too is whether there is any grounds for calling

this movement terrorist organisation. Would you deny that

your newspaper is in the pocket of the movement, which the people who

don't know the situation is a deep-rooted religious, social,

activist movement, run from exiled, and your newspaper has been in the

pocket of that organisation for sometime? I would not say it is in

the pocket, but I would not deny that many people within the

newspaper, not everyone, including some of my editors at Today's Zaman,

but the majority of the people would consider themselves sympathetic to

Fethullah Gulen and his teachings. If the movement has any terrorist

links, there would be evidence in one of the 170 countries in which it

was active, and they would not allow the existence of such an

organisation in their countries, would they? The outside world is

looking at this, and many people are deeply concerned about what appears

to be a repressive state moving into a media organisation. There is no

way that if we dig into this story we could portray your media

organisation is truly independent. You weren't independent, I use the

phrase in the pocket of, but you were closely associated with

Fethullah Gulen's movement, which has become a big enemy of the take a

party government at the moment. That is a complex question, you would

like to understand the context, but I think what makes the newspaper

independent, what is critical when it comes to independence of a

newspaper, is whether it is independent from government and

state. Any civic society organisations or any movement could

want to promote its interest or try to have a say in the media sector or

anywhere in the world, it always happens. But there is no evidence

that I can place in front of you, but I could assure you that

throughout my history at Today's Zaman and Zaman, I have not ever

received a single instruction from the movement off from Fethullah

Gulen. I was free to write whatever I felt like writing, but of course I

think along the same lines for the most part with the movement, because

this is a peaceful am completely peaceful, movement, which promotes

education, peaceful coexistence, and you know, universal rights. It

promotes a more civilised world. You keep telling me the movement is

entirely peaceful. You have said yes, many of you and your associates

in the newspaper were attached to it, but you see nothing wrong with

that. The government says that all over Turkey there is evidence that

the Gulen Movement is aiding and abetting terrorism and undermining

the state. What is the evidence? This is a country that has been

truly suffering from terrorist organisations. The PKK, ISIS, other

attacks. Can you name me or show me any incident, a single small

incident, where this has been involved? The government cannot show

me even a single incident. Here is what I'm struck by as you protest

your innocence and say this is a deep injustice. I'm struck by the

phrase to use in the US and elsewhere, what goes around comes

around. That is really what has happened to you. In this period of

2009 -12, the Zaman newspaper group was incredibly loyal to Recep Tayyip

Erdogan anti- AKP political -- and the AKP. You supported them when

they moved against independent journalists who were digging around

in unfavourable stories, both to the AKP and the Gulen Movement. You

supported the locking up of journalists then. Maybe you are

reaping what you sow. It is true that the idea of supporting

political freedom regardless of their situation. I was critical of

Zaman at the time. Are you critical of yourself? Let me clarify, I was

not part of the newspaper at the time. I know, but you were working

with an AKP affiliated President. Not an affiliated President,

Abdullah Gul was pretty impartial is top white he was part of the party.

You were part of the system at the time and you are happy to see

independent journalism oppressed if it suited the party. But now you

have decided, since you are a victim, that it is not good at. You

cannot find any evidence that I was happy with the imprisonment of

journalists, but I admit that personally at the newspaper we

should have expressed our voice clearly. We should have been more

supportive of freedoms in Turkey regardless of who the victim is. But

then again you have to look at the context in which not only the Zaman

group, but everyone, including the EU, Liberals in Turkey, Kurds,

people from different walks of life, supported the AKP up until

recently. Do much until the referendum after which Recep Tayyip

Erdogan became more corrupt. There is one particular case,

Ahmed, locked up between 2011 and 2012 fought bidding in on

information that did not help out Gulen movement. Zaman did not

champion his cause. He was released now. When he saw your offices were

raided recently, he said, I condemn the raid on Zaman but I also

remember that Zaman in the recent past serve Fascism. There is a real

mixed message going on here. I think you are missing this and looking at

the story selectively. It was a mistake not to defend the rights of

him and other MPs and journalists -- in prison. It wasn't only me. Before

the crackdown, before the government went after Zaman, the former editor

in chief of Zaman said it was a mistake along with other senior

columnists and executives who did a lot of soul-searching and said it

was a mistake. By the way let me clarify one point, you would be

wrong to assume that any violation of media freedom is or the rule of

law happened without the instructions or permission of Recep

Tayyip Erdogan because he himself said that books are more dangerous

than bombs, and Ahmed, before his imprisonment, was not a well-known

journalist. There were many other books that are defaming, thousands

of books, defending their Gulen movement. One of the authors of this

book so that if they are locked because they are critical of Gulen

movement, it should have been me who has been critical of the movement

for the last 14 years. We could not simply argue that they are

imprisoned because of a art and Thai Gulen movement. Let's look at the

bigger picture -- anti- Gulen movement. The bottom line for those

of us who look at your country from outside is that it looks almost

impossible today for any genuine independent reporting to take place

inside Turkey. This is not only about Zaman and the government. This

went well beyond this. It is not only... Even though Zaman is the

largest portion they were trying to swallow, they have been going after

other critical media outlets as well. We would be mistaken if we

assume this is a power struggle going on between a movement and the

regime in Turkey. How far do you think this authoritarian strain of

government can go? For example, days ago, after a decision to release two

journalists from a detention centre, because they still remain

charge of aiding and abetting terrorism but were released for a

time, Mr Erdogan said if the court makes decisions like that we will

have to review whether the constitutional court should

continue. How far will he go with his determination to impose his

authority on every level of the state? That criticism again, I would

never have imagined the government going this far when they were

democratising the country. It is quite like a U-turn. That is one

reason I would never have imagined him becoming this authoritarian.

After this point, especially after trying to distract attention from

the corruption investigations in order not to be held accountable, I

think he could go as far as he can. At the moment, there is not a single

power in the country, not any independent media institution, not a

strong civil society, not a strong opposition to start Erdogan. The

only situation trying to stop his violation of the rule of law was the

constitutional court and he said he does not recognise and respect the

constitutional court -- stopped Erdogan. It is the suspension of the

Constitution, effectively, and that is why it would not be wrong to

argue, to assume, that we are going through a difficult time because of

the Constitution suspension. You call it a coup d'etat and yet you

sit in Brussels trying to publicise your cause, because of freedom of

expression, and yet at the same time you are saying that two people in

Brussels, the EU is talking about speeding up the accession talks with

Turkey, visa free travel and other carrots to give the Turkish

government because they need their cooperation in the migration

crisis. Is Europe betraying its principles in how it is handling

Turkey today? Unfortunately, I have to say yes, with the exception of

individual politicians committed to their values. From a general

outlook, I think the EU does not live up to its values. For example,

when Angela Merkel visited Istanbul, she didn't visit the palace of

Erdogan, in protest of that place probably, because it is a

controversial palace, but instead Erdogan posted her in one of the

Ottoman palaces in a very symbolic move and used Angela Merkel's visit

to save his face among domestic supporters. Unfortunately, European

leaders are giving Erdogan opportunities in gold in place. You

sound very disappointed with Europe. A final question about your own

personal fate. You've described him as a dictator. You have said that

repression knows no bounds. You have talked about a coup d'etat in your

own country. The way you talk to me today suggest to me you don't think

you can possibly go home. That it would presumably be too dangerous to

go back to Turkey. Is that how you feel? First of all, let me clarify.

I haven't called him a dictator. He is a despot. That DWORD is dangerous

in Turkey. I am still subject to some censorship in that respect but

I have already been imprisoned because of my tweets and the comment

left under my tweet -- D word. But the case was... I was sued by the

Prime Minister are met other -- by the Prime Minister. It was someone

else's comment under my tweet. I know. You have had clashes already

with the law. You have already been convicted of crimes. Will you ever

go home, or as long as the AK government is in place, are you in

exile? All I can say is that the Erdogan regime has changed my life

in three hours. I love my country. It is the place where I was born and

raised. I am completely loyal to my home country but at the moment it is

not specific to me. Almost any critical journalist is under

jeopardy in Turkey. Our freedoms are under jeopardy. I don't see any

reason why I should go back under these circumstances. But then again

I truly have no other plans. I really don't know what I am going to

do next. I will continue doing journalism, maybe we might try to

revive Zaman as a news website with some other colleagues, but

everything is so vague at the moment because it is a trauma. At the

moment, there are people in the newsroom who are trying not to

resign, nor to lose their legal rights, but they are not happy to

work under a heavy police presence and under censorship. Well, we have

to end it there, but Sevgi Akarcesme, a thank you very much for

being on HARDtalk. Thank you for having me -- I thank you.

We've seen variations in weather from day to day with