Timo Soini - Foreign Minister of Finland HARDtalk


Timo Soini - Foreign Minister of Finland

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Welcome to HARDtalk, iron Stephen Sackur. The politics of anger and

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insecurity have created a new dynamic in Europe. Nationalist

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anti-immigrant parties have made inroads in many countries, such as

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Hungary, Denmark and Finland. The right-wing populist party is a

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significant player in the centre-right Coalition government.

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My guest today is Timo Soini, Leader of the Opposition and the Foreign

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Minister. What happens to be populace when they face the

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compromises that come with sharing power? -- what happens to the

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populists? Timo Soini, welcome. We last spoke

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to each other about three years ago. You would then be opponent of the

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Finnish government. You are channelling a lot of anger and

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resentment in your country. It is very difficult to do that when you

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are in the government, isn't it? Of course it is. It's a different role.

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But the political line should be the same. It is now in development, it

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is a better chance to make it am. You've had to sacrifice a lot of

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your principles for pragmatism? No, but we are living in the realistic

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world. When you are on your own, of course you can more or less decide

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what to say and when to say it and how to say it. When you are in the

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government, in a coalition, you must be able to make compromises. But

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that doesn't mean that you are giving up your principal. We will

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talk about that. One fought from you that comes from elsewhere in

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Scandinavia. Not so long ago, the far right party in Denmark who did

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extraordinarily well in the last election, they came second, they

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took a decision to stay out of a Coalition government because they

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felt that that would compromise them at too much. You clearly felt

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something different, is that because you are desperate for some power?

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No, I have a background in the Finnish rural party. There is a long

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tradition of helping small businessmen, peasants, workers. Our

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party hasn't been founded lately, it has roots rolling back over 50

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years. That is why we have been serious players in local politics

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for a long time. The point is, you have not had national Power before.

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Now you do, and it seems you are leaving behind a lot of your core

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support. When you talk about the rise, they call it betrayal. They

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feel you have portrayed them. That is not true. If I went out, they

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would say, why won't you do this? You're not going to deliver

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anything. Talking about the compromise and principles. Starting

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with migration, perhaps the number one issue facing European countries

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today. A huge political issue in your country and across Europe. For

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many years, you were very straightforward in your

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anti-immigration stance. You now represent a government which, as

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part of the Schengen EU collective, committed to taking quotas of

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immigrants. You've accepted that? First, we must define certain

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things. Of course, Finns Party, like every human organisation and human

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being, feels for the people who are in need, who are in danger. Women,

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children, people who are persecuted and under threat. Of course that is

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the case. That is not the problem. What we have criticised is the

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immigration on other grounds, economic immigration and so forth.

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If you work, if you deliver, that is the kind of principle which is very

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important. With respect, there are many voices inside your own party,

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the Finns Party, who don't see it the way you do. They see a quite

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clear, using a quote from one of your MEPs, they see a clear Muslim

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threat in the nature of immigration today in the nature of immigration

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today this is what I get on a daily basis. From inside your own party?

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Yes. But we must look at the full picture. It is not solely about

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immigration, it is about many things. There is of course a

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fraction in the party. I think it is better to have those kind of people

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in a democratic process than outside. The MEP I am talking

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about, you know him very well. He has been a big player in your party

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for a long time. He was convicted of ethnic agitation for things he wrote

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in a blog post about the Prophet Muhammad. You said anybody convicted

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of racist crimes would not have a future as a representative of your

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party. I am intrigued to know why he is still representing your party?

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That is the same old story. We have sorted out that he is still in the

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party, and we think that everybody must have a second chance. So when

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you said those convicted of the sorts of crimes have no future in

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the party, you were just saying that for public consumption? Of course I

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did not say it for public consumption, everybody must have a

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second chance. So, you've made a complete U-turn? No. But I think

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that if somebody is making a mistake, he should have a second

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chance. You have also got party MPs who have said things like this last

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year in the midst of high numbers of migrants coming to Europe. You had

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around 30,000 coming to Finland. One of your MP said, I am dreaming of a

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strong, brave Finland who will defeat this nightmare called

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multiculturalism. We must fight to the end for our homeland and one

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true Finnish nation. Is that the sentiments you feel yourself as

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Foreign Minister of Finland? I would say the other way. I would say that

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when you come to Finland, you adopt the local culture and habits. But

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nobody is denied his beliefs or hers, through faith. That is the

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case. We began by talking about the balance between principle and

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compromise. Not so long ago, towards the end of last year, another one of

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your senior officials, the vice-chairman of your party, said we

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must leave this Coalition government because we have betrayed all the

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promises we made to the people of Finland about limiting immigration.

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In 2014, just over 3000 people claimed asylum. In 2015, it was over

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30,000. You have portrayed the Finns Party commitment to keep immigration

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down. He got it wrong. The big majority of the party thinks that we

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deliver. We are in a very bad situation in Finland. It would be a

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betrayal to leave if you have promised and committed for four

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years. We are talking about promises, you broke a promise to do

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everything in your power to keep immigration at the 2014 level. No, I

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have not broken any promises. Ninon. Use it as one of the most

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senior officials, you are part of a government which is clearly

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tolerating a far greater number of immigrants than the supporters of

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your party want to see. Let's have a realistic view of this. For example,

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Germany who saw 1.1 million. This is huge, catastrophic. No country could

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have been unaffected by this issue. That is the fact. Of course, we want

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to get back control. Now, Finland is controlling the situation. Of

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course, now we have delivered. Is not really controlling the

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situation, a lot of the situation is being controlled by the EU Council

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and the commission. Many decisions affect Finland, for example the one

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for one deal with Turkey. On that deal, the implication of that deal

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is that future refugees, including Syrians, will be sent back in. Bak.

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In exchange, the EU will take 141 exchanges from Turkey. Are you

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committing to that? We always keep our promises. That is Finland's word

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of honour. How many are you prepared to take? We have committed to taking

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600 already. That is not anywhere what the EU will require from you.

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The EU will make a decision, a few months ago they said 160000 and they

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have not delivered. There are only a few countries who have made their

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share, cement, Luxembourg and Sweden are among those. In the quota from

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last year, Finland was told you would take 2078. How many have you

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actually taken? A little bit of a 100. Again, I am wondering whether

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whatever rhetorical commitments you make to join in collective burden

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sharing in the EU, should we take you seriously? Of course. We haven't

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broken any of our promises. Coming back to the basic numbers question,

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the numbers are going to have to rise given the one for one deal. If

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it ever happens, countries like Finland will have to take

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substantial numbers, at least several thousand. Are you prepared

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to do that? First, when we didn't have any kind of agreement, we had

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to take 32,000 from our western border. That was uncontrolled. They

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don't know who is coming and who is not. Now, if we make a deal, we have

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thousands to come. But they are collected from the hotspots or from

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the account is. We know who they are. We know what they are entitled

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to and that they are entitled to asylum. That is important. Asking

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you one more time, can you put a figure on how many refugees Finland

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is prepared to take? A national quota is 1050 at the moment. It will

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rise? Will see. Talking about Russia, in the first two months of

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this year, almost 1000 people crossed from Russia into Finland.

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Since then, you have spoken to Russia and they seem to have stemmed

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the flow. But many people say that the only way in the long run to

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ensure the security of Europe in terms of immigration is to build

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fences. One of those might have to be between Finland and Russia. Are

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you prepared to do that? No. We have a long tradition to co-operate with

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Russia. We don't have any fear, we know that we have been delivering.

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There was also a very challenging situation when Russia was under

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Communist rule. We need an agreement and good co-operation with our

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border officials. Do you trust Putin's Russia? This is the

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political reality, we cannot change the geopolitics. We have to be

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there, we have the hand we have been given and we are playing with that

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hand. You say it's not a matter of trust, but there are certain

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challenges and options that Finland must deal with that? You see what

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has happened in the Ukraine, torture and other places that you could say

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were at some time, part of the Ukrainian empire. You've been there.

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For 100 years. We have learned from that. Have you learned that you need

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to be in Nato? Not necessarily. It is up to people to decide. This

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government is making a Nato review on this issue. But what we think

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about is that Russian people, they know that we'd defend ourselves, or

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whatever it takes. That is, you cannot change the world and the

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geographical fact is. When you say we will defend ourselves whatever it

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takes, the Russians hear that kind of language and the fact that your

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government is considering Nato membership. They see that as hostile

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and respond to it by saying things like this. Russia's Ambassador to

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Sweden, warning of consequences if Finland goes ahead with a Nato

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application for membership. Another adviser to President Putin, said

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Finland should think of the consequences if it considers joining

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Nato. They must ask themselves if they are prepared to start world War

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three? We are an independent country and we

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will make our own decisions, always and every time. You are the Foreign

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Minister. You tell me what you believe to be the right option.

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Should Finland joint NATO? That door should be open, but we are now

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terribly nonaligned in the sense that we are not members of the

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military alliance, but we are cooperating with NATO, in Irbil, in

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Lebanon, we are in many places. I know that, you have joined some

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operations and you have also seen Russians building a military pace

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just 50 metres from your border, you have seen the aerial violations in

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Scandinavia. You know what games but it is playing so I will ask you one

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more time. You are the Foreign Minister. You must have an opinion

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on this. In the long run... I am the Foreign Minister of this government

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and I follow the government programme, which I just told you

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what it was. Well, that is interesting. You are becoming quite

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a loyalist to your government even though you used to have strong

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opinions on all sorts of things. Let's leave NATO on one side. If I

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make an agreement, I keep my word. Well, one thing you used to give

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your word on to the members of your party and to the country was that

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you were an opponent of the eurozone. You felt that it was

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damaging for Finland, and you also felt that it was, in a sense,

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northern Europe bankrolling southern Europe. And you said, and it was a

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famous quote at the time that there were parts of the eurozone that had

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gangrene and should be amputated. Yes, that's right, and what has

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happened... At it can't be a bit dated, you were talking about

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Greece, Spain, Portugal... The crisis is far from over. Yes, but I

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come back to this point, I keep repeating it. You are now the

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Foreign Minister in this government. You go to the eurozone meetings, you

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go to... I don't go to the eurozone itself. You are not the Finance

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Minister but the point is you are part of a government which is now

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committed to staying in the eurozone. The fact is that we must

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fight with the best interests of the Finnish people everytime. What good

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would it be the people to leave it on the floor? It is a question of

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principle, though. There are many people in your party who are very

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strong supporters of the idea of pushing for a referendum of

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continued Finnish membership of the euro. Of course they want to get

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out. What do you say to those members of your own party who are

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pushing for a referendum on the euro? The majority of the party

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elected me unanimously a few months ago, and they know that I am

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defining and delivering a party programme. So that is the mainstream

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of the party and that is how it should be carried out, and that is

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how it functions. Not to be clear, as I understand it in the next few

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weeks a Parliamentary debate will be held on whether to have a national

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referendum on what they call Fexit, your exit from the eurozone. What is

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your permission on that? That is the case, there is not that kind of deal

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but it is guaranteed, if the majority of Parliament doesn't want

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it, it doesn't exist. No, I understand that but you have an

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important voice. Not just for your party but for the nation. And I want

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to know what your opinion is today. Would Finland be better off outside

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the eurozone? And would you, if they were to be a referendum would you

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campaign to get out of the eurozone? This thing has a background. And the

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background was that we were never allowed a referendum in the

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eurozone, as Sweden did, as Denmark did. And that has a lot of people

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feeling not well. Because we were never asked. And that is where it

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comes from. And of course I said openly that I wouldn't have joined

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the euro. But what is now needed, if you want to get rid of it and get

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Fexit, you must have the majority of the people and the majority of the

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Parliament to agree. And that is not the situation at the moment. Because

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you are now inside government, and in the course of this interview you

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have illustrated how to a certain extent you have had to modify some

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of your language and some of your policy positions, what has happened

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to all of the anger and resentment that you use the channel, and which

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is still in Finland but which you are not channelling any because you

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are now a big player inside the government. What has happened to

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that anger, where has it gone? The anger is always there but our party

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didn't grow out of anger. Our party did grow out of political patients

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and political assessments. That is what we grew out of. And as I said,

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we had a background from the Peasants Party, we were very

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critical to communism and that was the mainstream and this background

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of the party. We had all kinds of people, we were the second biggest

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in the government at the last election, second the guest. But the

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point is, looking at the most recent opinion polls, and I'm sure you look

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at them more closely than I do, having got ready much 18% in the

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last elections, you are now down to 10% or even lower. You have lost a

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lot of support. And I put it to you that some of that support has moved

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perhaps to the more extreme right. We see some phenomena in Finland

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today which are very worrying, for examples are Soldiers of Odin

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organisation. They have nothing to do with us. No, but the point is

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that some people feel you have betrayed the cause of true Finn

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nationalism by going over to them. We haven't betrayed anybody, not a

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single one. There were some people in your party who you're fired, one

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guy who said in your party who you're fired, one

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guy who who used to be the deputy leader of your party, he says you

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guillotined him. It was for his own decision. I don't think that's how

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he felt about being guillotined. You must ask him. The serious point is,

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this isn't just about Finland. Right across Europe there are dangerous,

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alarming signs of radicalism and extremism on the far right. What do

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you think is the best way to deal with that, including the Soldiers of

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Odin inside Finland. First we must make a definition. The Finns Party

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is not an extreme party. You cannot imagine that Finns Party would hold

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a Deputy Prime Minister seat. And when we talk about these issues it

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seems to be forgotten many times. The second biggest economic agenda,

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education agenda, all kinds of these kinds of agendas, and when we

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usually just talk about of these minorities, but I am heavily against

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all kinds of violence, all kinds of malfeasance in human rights. Except

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you did say earlier that everybody deserves a second chance, even those

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who are stealing. I said in his case he earned a second chance but I

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never, ever accept anything racist. And you cannot find a single quarter

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for me saying for 40 years roughly in my political career that I have a

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single racist thing ever. And I am the leader of the party. Yes, you

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are. And a final point, which I think again has resonance not just

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for Finland but for Europe, one of the leading political scientist in

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the country says this. So far, for what has happened in Finland since

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the 2015 election, it looks like it is possible to tame a populist

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party. If they are in a minority position in a coalition government,

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they have to make concessions. The sorts of concessions that make their

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own supporters unhappy. That's the truth, isn't it? This is funny,

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because I wrote my own thesis at the University of Helsinki 1988,

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delivering the same kinds of stuff, what he says right now. You agree

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with him? You have been tamed? Not tamed, but the situation has

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changed. And then, when it has changed we must live in the world

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we're living in. You don't like the word tamed. Of course, well, it is

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unjust. Timo Soini, we have to end there, but thank you very much for

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being on HARDtalk. OK, thank you.

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