23/03/2016 HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it is time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

The politics of anger and insecurity have created

a new dynamic in Europe.

Nationalist anti-immigrant parties have made inroads in many countries,

such as Hungary, Denmark and Finland.

The right-wing populist party is a significant player in the

centre-right Coalition government.

My guest today is Timo Soini, Leader of the Finnish Opposition

and the Foreign Minister.

What happens to the populists when they face the compromises that

come with sharing power?

Timo Soini, welcome to HARDtalk.

We last spoke to each other about three years ago.

You were then the opponent of the Finnish government.

You were channelling a lot of anger and resentment in your country.

It is very difficult to do that when you are in the government, isn't it?

Of course it is.

It's a different role.

But the political line should be the same.

It is now in development, it is a better chance to make it more.

You've had to sacrifice a lot of your principles for pragmatism?

No, but we are living in the realistic world.

When you are on your own, of course you can more or less

decide what to say and when to say it and how to say it.

When you are in the government, in a coalition, you must be able to

make compromises.

But that doesn't mean that you are giving up your principles.

We will talk about that.

One thought from you that comes from elsewhere in Scandinavia.

Not so long ago, the far right party in Denmark who did extraordinarily

well in the last election, they came second, they took a decision to stay

out of a Coalition government because they felt that that would

compromise them too much.

You clearly felt something different, is that because you

are desperate for some power?

No, I have a background in the Finnish rural party.

There is a long tradition of helping small businessmen,

peasants, workers.

Our party hasn't been founded lately, it has roots

going back over 50 years.

That is why we have been serious players in local politics

for a long time.

The point is, you have not had national power before.

Now you do, and it seems you are leaving

behind a lot of your core support.

When you talk about the rise, they call it betrayal.

They feel you have betrayed them.

That is not true.

If I went out, they would say, why won't you do this?

You're not going to deliver anything.

Talking about the compromise and principles.

Starting with migration, perhaps the number one issue facing

European countries today.

A huge political issue in your country and across Europe.

For many years, you were very straightforward

in your anti-immigration stance.

You now represent a government which, as part of the

Schengen EU collective, committed to taking quotas of immigrants.

You've accepted that?

First, we must define certain things.

Of course, Finns Party, like every human organisation and

human being, feels for the people who are in need, who are in danger.

Women, children, people who are persecuted and under threat.

Of course that is the case.

That is not the problem.

What we have criticised is the immigration on other grounds,

economic immigration and so forth.

If you work, if you deliver, that is the kind of principle

which is very important.

With respect, there are many voices inside

your own party, the Finns Party, who don't see it the way you do.

They see a quote here, using a quote from one of your MEPs,

they see a clear Muslim threat in the nature of immigration today.

This is what I get on a daily basis.

From inside your own party?

Yes.

But we must look at the full picture.

It is not solely about immigration, it is about many things.

There is of course a fraction in the party.

I think it is better to have those kind of people in

a democratic process than outside.

The MEP I am talking about, you know him very well.

He has been a big player in your party for a long time.

He was convicted of ethnic agitation for things he wrote in a blog post

about the Prophet Muhammad.

You said anybody convicted of racist crimes would not have a future

as a representative of your party.

I am intrigued to know why he is still representing your party?

That is the same old story.

We have sorted out that he is still in the party, and we think that

everybody must have a second chance.

So when you said those convicted of the sorts of crimes have no

future in the party, you were just saying that for public consumption?

Of course I did not say it for public consumption, everybody

must have a second chance.

So, you've made a complete U-turn?

No.

But I think that if somebody is making a mistake,

he should have a second chance.

You have also got party MPs who have said things like this, last year

in the midst of high numbers of migrants coming to Europe.

You had around 30,000 coming to Finland.

One of your MP's said, I am dreaming of a strong,

brave Finland who will defeat this nightmare called multiculturalism.

We must fight to the end for our homeland

and one true Finnish nation.

Is that the sentiment you feel yourself

as Foreign Minister of Finland?

I would say the other way.

I would say that when you come to Finland, you adopt

the local culture and habits.

But nobody is denied his beliefs or hers, through faith.

That is the case.

We began by talking about the balance

between principle and compromise.

Not so long ago, towards the end of last year, another one of your

senior officials, the vice-chairman of your party, said we must leave

this Coalition government because we have betrayed all the promises we

made to the people of Finland about limiting immigration.

In 2014, just over 3000 people claimed asylum.

In 2015, it was over 30,000.

You have betrayed the Finns Party commitment to keep immigration down.

He got it wrong.

The big majority of the party thinks that we deliver.

We are in a very bad situation in Finland.

It would be a betrayal to leave if you have promised

and committed for four years.

We are talking about promises, you broke a promise to do everything

in your power to keep immigration at the 2014 level.

No, I have not broken any promises.

None.

As one of the most senior officials, you are part of a government

which is clearly tolerating a far greater number

of immigrants than the supporters of your party want to see.

Let's have a realistic view of this.

For example, Germany who saw 1.1 million.

This is huge, catastrophic.

No country could have been unaffected by this issue.

That is the fact.

Of course, we want to get back control.

Now, Finland is controlling the situation.

Of course, now we have delivered.

It's not really controlling the situation, a lot of

the situation is being controlled by the EU Council and the commission.

Many decisions affect Finland, for example the one

for one deal with Turkey.

On that deal, the implication of that deal is that

future refugees, including Syrians, will be sent back in.

Yes.

In exchange, the EU will take one for one exchanges from Turkey.

Are you committing to that?

We always keep our promises.

That is Finland's word of honour.

How many are you prepared to take?

We have committed to taking 600 already.

That is not anywhere what the EU will require from you.

The EU will make a decision, a few months ago they said 160,000

and they have not delivered.

There are only a few countries who have made

their share, Finland, Luxembourg and Sweden are among those.

In the quota from last year, Finland was told you would take 2078.

How many have you actually taken?

A little bit over a 100.

Again, I am wondering whether whatever rhetorical

commitments you make to join in collective burden sharing in the

EU, should we take you seriously?

Of course.

We haven't broken any of our promises.

Coming back to the basic numbers question,

the numbers are going to have to rise given the one for one deal.

If it ever happens, countries like Finland will have to

take substantial numbers, at least several thousand.

Are you prepared to do that?

First, when we didn't have any kind of agreement, we had to take

32,000 from our western border.

That was uncontrolled.

They don't know who is coming and who is not.

Now, if we make a deal, we have thousands to come.

But they are collected from the hotspots or from the accounts.

We know who they are.

We know what they are entitled to and that they

are entitled to asylum.

That is important.

Asking you one more time, can you put a figure on how many refugees

Finland is prepared to take?

Our national quota is 1050 at the moment.

It will rise?

We'll see.

Talking about Russia, in the first two months

of this year, almost 1000 people crossed from Russia into Finland.

Since then, you have spoken to Russia and they

seem to have stemmed the flow.

But many people say that the only way in the long run to ensure

the security of Europe in terms of immigration is to build fences.

One of those might have to be between Finland and Russia.

Are you prepared to do that?

No.

We have a long tradition to co-operate with Russia.

We don't have any fear, we know that we have been delivering.

There was also a very challenging situation when

Russia was under Communist rule.

We need an agreement and good co-operation with

our border officials.

Do you trust Putin's Russia?

This is the political reality, we cannot change the geopolitics.

We have to be there, we have the hand we have been given

and we are playing with that hand.

You say it's not a matter of trust, but there are certain challenges

and options that Finland must deal with that?

You see what has happened in the Ukraine, Georgia and other places

that you could say were at some time, part of the Ukrainian empire.

You've been there.

For 100 years.

We have learned from that.

Have you learned that you need to be in Nato?

Not necessarily.

It is up to people to decide.

This government is making a Nato review on this issue.

But what we think about is that Russian people,

they know that we'd defend ourselves, or whatever it takes.

That is, you cannot change the world and the geographical facts.

When you say we will defend ourselves whatever it takes, the

Russians hear that kind of language and the fact that your government is

considering Nato membership.

They see that as hostile and respond to it by saying things

like this - Russia's Ambassador to Sweden, warning of consequences

if Finland goes ahead with a Nato application for membership.

Another adviser to President Putin said Finland should think

of the consequences if it considers joining Nato.

They must ask themselves if they are prepared to start World War Three?

We are an independent country and we will make our own decisions,

always and every time.

You are the foreign minister.

You tell me what you believe to be the right option.

Should Finland join Nato?

That door should be open.

But we are now militarily non-aligned,

in the sense that we are not members of the military alliance.

But we are cooperating with Nato, in Irbil, in Lebanon,

we are in many places.

I know that, you have joined some operations, and you have also seen

Russians building a military base just 50 metres from your border.

You have seen the aerial violations in Scandinavia.

You know what games that it is playing.

So I will ask you one more time.

You are the foreign minister.

You must have an opinion on this.

In the long run...

I am the foreign minister of this government, and I follow

the government programme, which I just told you what it was.

Well, that is interesting.

You are becoming quite a loyalist to your government,

even though you used to have strong opinions on all sorts of things.

Let's leave Nato on one side.

If I make an agreement, I keep my word.

Well, one thing you used to give your word

on, to the members of your party and to the country, was that you

were an opponent of the eurozone.

You felt that it was damaging for Finland, and you also felt that

it was, in a sense, northern Europe bankrolling southern Europe.

And you said, and it was a famous quote at the time, that there were

parts of the eurozone that had gangrene and should be amputated.

Yes, that's right, and what has happened...

But it can't be amputated.

You were talking about Greece, Spain, Portugal...

The crisis is far from over.

Yes, but I come back to this point, I keep repeating it.

You are now the foreign minister in this government.

You go to the eurozone meetings, you go to...

I don't go to the eurozone itself.

You are not the finance minister, but the point is you are part of

a government which is now committed to staying in the eurozone.

The fact is that we must fight with the best interests of the Finnish

people, every time.

What good would it be for people to leave it on the floor?

It is a question of principle, though.

There are many people in your party who are very strong

supporters of the idea of pushing for a referendum of continued

Finnish membership of the euro.

Of course, they want to get out.

What do you say to those members of your own party who are pushing

for a referendum on the euro?

The majority of the party elected me unanimously a few months ago,

and they know that I am defining and delivering a party programme.

So that is the mainstream of the party,

and that is how it should be carried out, and that is how it functions.

But to be clear, as I understand it, in the next few weeks

a parliamentary debate will be held on whether to have a national

referendum on what they call Fixit, your exit from the eurozone.

What is your position on that?

That is the case.

There is not that kind of deal, but it is guaranteed,

if the majority of parliament doesn't want it, it doesn't exist.

No, I understand that.

But you have an important voice, not just for your party,

but for the nation.

And I want to know what your opinion is today.

Would Finland be better off outside the eurozone,

and would you, if there were to be a referendum, would you campaign to

get out of the eurozone?

This thing has a background, and the background was that we were

never allowed a referendum in the eurozone, as Sweden did,

as Denmark did.

And that has a lot of people feeling not well,

because we were never asked, and that is where it comes from.

And of course, I said openly that I wouldn't have joined the euro.

But what is now needed, if you want to get rid of it and get

Fixit, you must have the majority of the people and the majority

of the parliament to agree.

And that is not the situation at the moment.

Because you are now inside government, and in the course of

this interview you have illustrated how to a certain extent you have had

to modify some of your language and some of your policy positions, what

has happened to all of the anger and resentment that you used to channel,

and which is still in Finland, but which you are not channelling

anymore, because you are now a big player inside the government?

What has happened to that anger, where has it gone?

The anger is always there.

But our party didn't grow out of anger.

Our party did grow out of political considerations

and political assessments.

That is what we grew out of.

And as I said, we had a background from the Small Peasants Party.

We were very critical to communism, and that was the mainstream

and the background of the party.

We had all kinds of people.

We were the second-biggest in the government at

the last election, second-biggest.

But the point is, looking at the most recent opinion polls,

and I'm sure you look at them more closely than I do, having got pretty

much 18% in the last elections, you are now down to 10% or even lower.

You have lost a lot of support.

And I put it to you that some of that support has moved perhaps

to the more extreme right.

We see some phenomena in Finland today which are very worrying,

for examples the Soldiers of Odin organisation.

They have nothing to do with us.

No, but the point is that some people feel you have betrayed

the cause of true Finn nationalism by going over to them.

We haven't betrayed anybody, not a single one.

There were some people in your party who you're fired,

one guy who said you used who used to be the deputy leader of your

party, he says you guillotined him.

It was for his own decision.

I don't think that's how he felt about being guillotined.

You must ask him.

The serious point is, this isn't just about Finland.

Right across Europe, there are dangerous,

alarming signs of radicalism and extremism on the far right.

What do you think is the best way to deal with that, including the

Soldiers of Odin, inside Finland?

First we must make a definition.

The Finns Party is not an extreme party.

You cannot imagine that Finns Party would hold a Deputy Prime Minister's

seat.

And when we talk about these issues, it seems to be forgotten many times.

The second-biggest economic agenda, education agenda, all kinds of these

kinds of agendas, and we usually just talk about these minorities.

But I am heavily against all kinds of violence, all kinds

of malfeasance in human rights.

Except you did say earlier that everybody deserves a second chance,

even those who are stealing.

I said in his case he earned a second chance, but I never,

ever accept anything racist.

And you cannot find a single quarter for me saying, for 40 years roughly

in my political career, that I have said a single racist thing, ever.

And I am the leader of the party.

Yes, you are.

And a final point, which I think again has resonance not just

for Finland, but for Europe.

Erkka Railo, one of the leading political scientists

in the country, says this.

So far, from what has happened in Finland since the 2015 election,

it looks like it is possible to tame a populist party.

If they are in a minority position in a coalition government,

they have to make concessions, the sorts of concessions that make

their own supporters unhappy.

That's the truth, isn't it?

This is funny, because I wrote my own thesis at

the University of Helsinki, 1988, delivering the same kinds of stuff,

what Erkka Railo says right now.

You agree with him?

You have been tamed?

Not tamed, but the situation has changed.

And then, when it has changed, we must live

in the world we're living in.

You don't like the word "tamed".

Of course, well, it is unjust.

Timo Soini, we have to end there, but thank you very much

for being on HARDtalk.

OK, thank you.

Hello.

For some areas this has been the driest spell of weather