Timo Soini - Foreign Minister of Finland HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, iron Stephen Sackur. The politics of anger and

insecurity have created a new dynamic in Europe. Nationalist

anti-immigrant parties have made inroads in many countries, such as

Hungary, Denmark and Finland. The right-wing populist party is a

significant player in the centre-right Coalition government.

My guest today is Timo Soini, Leader of the Opposition and the Foreign

Minister. What happens to be populace when they face the

compromises that come with sharing power? -- what happens to the

populists? Timo Soini, welcome. We last spoke

to each other about three years ago. You would then be opponent of the

Finnish government. You are channelling a lot of anger and

resentment in your country. It is very difficult to do that when you

are in the government, isn't it? Of course it is. It's a different role.

But the political line should be the same. It is now in development, it

is a better chance to make it am. You've had to sacrifice a lot of

your principles for pragmatism? No, but we are living in the realistic

world. When you are on your own, of course you can more or less decide

what to say and when to say it and how to say it. When you are in the

government, in a coalition, you must be able to make compromises. But

that doesn't mean that you are giving up your principal. We will

talk about that. One fought from you that comes from elsewhere in

Scandinavia. Not so long ago, the far right party in Denmark who did

extraordinarily well in the last election, they came second, they

took a decision to stay out of a Coalition government because they

felt that that would compromise them at too much. You clearly felt

something different, is that because you are desperate for some power?

No, I have a background in the Finnish rural party. There is a long

tradition of helping small businessmen, peasants, workers. Our

party hasn't been founded lately, it has roots rolling back over 50

years. That is why we have been serious players in local politics

for a long time. The point is, you have not had national Power before.

Now you do, and it seems you are leaving behind a lot of your core

support. When you talk about the rise, they call it betrayal. They

feel you have portrayed them. That is not true. If I went out, they

would say, why won't you do this? You're not going to deliver

anything. Talking about the compromise and principles. Starting

with migration, perhaps the number one issue facing European countries

today. A huge political issue in your country and across Europe. For

many years, you were very straightforward in your

anti-immigration stance. You now represent a government which, as

part of the Schengen EU collective, committed to taking quotas of

immigrants. You've accepted that? First, we must define certain

things. Of course, Finns Party, like every human organisation and human

being, feels for the people who are in need, who are in danger. Women,

children, people who are persecuted and under threat. Of course that is

the case. That is not the problem. What we have criticised is the

immigration on other grounds, economic immigration and so forth.

If you work, if you deliver, that is the kind of principle which is very

important. With respect, there are many voices inside your own party,

the Finns Party, who don't see it the way you do. They see a quite

clear, using a quote from one of your MEPs, they see a clear Muslim

threat in the nature of immigration today in the nature of immigration

today this is what I get on a daily basis. From inside your own party?

Yes. But we must look at the full picture. It is not solely about

immigration, it is about many things. There is of course a

fraction in the party. I think it is better to have those kind of people

in a democratic process than outside. The MEP I am talking

about, you know him very well. He has been a big player in your party

for a long time. He was convicted of ethnic agitation for things he wrote

in a blog post about the Prophet Muhammad. You said anybody convicted

of racist crimes would not have a future as a representative of your

party. I am intrigued to know why he is still representing your party?

That is the same old story. We have sorted out that he is still in the

party, and we think that everybody must have a second chance. So when

you said those convicted of the sorts of crimes have no future in

the party, you were just saying that for public consumption? Of course I

did not say it for public consumption, everybody must have a

second chance. So, you've made a complete U-turn? No. But I think

that if somebody is making a mistake, he should have a second

chance. You have also got party MPs who have said things like this last

year in the midst of high numbers of migrants coming to Europe. You had

around 30,000 coming to Finland. One of your MP said, I am dreaming of a

strong, brave Finland who will defeat this nightmare called

multiculturalism. We must fight to the end for our homeland and one

true Finnish nation. Is that the sentiments you feel yourself as

Foreign Minister of Finland? I would say the other way. I would say that

when you come to Finland, you adopt the local culture and habits. But

nobody is denied his beliefs or hers, through faith. That is the

case. We began by talking about the balance between principle and

compromise. Not so long ago, towards the end of last year, another one of

your senior officials, the vice-chairman of your party, said we

must leave this Coalition government because we have betrayed all the

promises we made to the people of Finland about limiting immigration.

In 2014, just over 3000 people claimed asylum. In 2015, it was over

30,000. You have portrayed the Finns Party commitment to keep immigration

down. He got it wrong. The big majority of the party thinks that we

deliver. We are in a very bad situation in Finland. It would be a

betrayal to leave if you have promised and committed for four

years. We are talking about promises, you broke a promise to do

everything in your power to keep immigration at the 2014 level. No, I

have not broken any promises. Ninon. Use it as one of the most

senior officials, you are part of a government which is clearly

tolerating a far greater number of immigrants than the supporters of

your party want to see. Let's have a realistic view of this. For example,

Germany who saw 1.1 million. This is huge, catastrophic. No country could

have been unaffected by this issue. That is the fact. Of course, we want

to get back control. Now, Finland is controlling the situation. Of

course, now we have delivered. Is not really controlling the

situation, a lot of the situation is being controlled by the EU Council

and the commission. Many decisions affect Finland, for example the one

for one deal with Turkey. On that deal, the implication of that deal

is that future refugees, including Syrians, will be sent back in. Bak.

In exchange, the EU will take 141 exchanges from Turkey. Are you

committing to that? We always keep our promises. That is Finland's word

of honour. How many are you prepared to take? We have committed to taking

600 already. That is not anywhere what the EU will require from you.

The EU will make a decision, a few months ago they said 160000 and they

have not delivered. There are only a few countries who have made their

share, cement, Luxembourg and Sweden are among those. In the quota from

last year, Finland was told you would take 2078. How many have you

actually taken? A little bit of a 100. Again, I am wondering whether

whatever rhetorical commitments you make to join in collective burden

sharing in the EU, should we take you seriously? Of course. We haven't

broken any of our promises. Coming back to the basic numbers question,

the numbers are going to have to rise given the one for one deal. If

it ever happens, countries like Finland will have to take

substantial numbers, at least several thousand. Are you prepared

to do that? First, when we didn't have any kind of agreement, we had

to take 32,000 from our western border. That was uncontrolled. They

don't know who is coming and who is not. Now, if we make a deal, we have

thousands to come. But they are collected from the hotspots or from

the account is. We know who they are. We know what they are entitled

to and that they are entitled to asylum. That is important. Asking

you one more time, can you put a figure on how many refugees Finland

is prepared to take? A national quota is 1050 at the moment. It will

rise? Will see. Talking about Russia, in the first two months of

this year, almost 1000 people crossed from Russia into Finland.

Since then, you have spoken to Russia and they seem to have stemmed

the flow. But many people say that the only way in the long run to

ensure the security of Europe in terms of immigration is to build

fences. One of those might have to be between Finland and Russia. Are

you prepared to do that? No. We have a long tradition to co-operate with

Russia. We don't have any fear, we know that we have been delivering.

There was also a very challenging situation when Russia was under

Communist rule. We need an agreement and good co-operation with our

border officials. Do you trust Putin's Russia? This is the

political reality, we cannot change the geopolitics. We have to be

there, we have the hand we have been given and we are playing with that

hand. You say it's not a matter of trust, but there are certain

challenges and options that Finland must deal with that? You see what

has happened in the Ukraine, torture and other places that you could say

were at some time, part of the Ukrainian empire. You've been there.

For 100 years. We have learned from that. Have you learned that you need

to be in Nato? Not necessarily. It is up to people to decide. This

government is making a Nato review on this issue. But what we think

about is that Russian people, they know that we'd defend ourselves, or

whatever it takes. That is, you cannot change the world and the

geographical fact is. When you say we will defend ourselves whatever it

takes, the Russians hear that kind of language and the fact that your

government is considering Nato membership. They see that as hostile

and respond to it by saying things like this. Russia's Ambassador to

Sweden, warning of consequences if Finland goes ahead with a Nato

application for membership. Another adviser to President Putin, said

Finland should think of the consequences if it considers joining

Nato. They must ask themselves if they are prepared to start world War

three? We are an independent country and we

will make our own decisions, always and every time. You are the Foreign

Minister. You tell me what you believe to be the right option.

Should Finland joint NATO? That door should be open, but we are now

terribly nonaligned in the sense that we are not members of the

military alliance, but we are cooperating with NATO, in Irbil, in

Lebanon, we are in many places. I know that, you have joined some

operations and you have also seen Russians building a military pace

just 50 metres from your border, you have seen the aerial violations in

Scandinavia. You know what games but it is playing so I will ask you one

more time. You are the Foreign Minister. You must have an opinion

on this. In the long run... I am the Foreign Minister of this government

and I follow the government programme, which I just told you

what it was. Well, that is interesting. You are becoming quite

a loyalist to your government even though you used to have strong

opinions on all sorts of things. Let's leave NATO on one side. If I

make an agreement, I keep my word. Well, one thing you used to give

your word on to the members of your party and to the country was that

you were an opponent of the eurozone. You felt that it was

damaging for Finland, and you also felt that it was, in a sense,

northern Europe bankrolling southern Europe. And you said, and it was a

famous quote at the time that there were parts of the eurozone that had

gangrene and should be amputated. Yes, that's right, and what has

happened... At it can't be a bit dated, you were talking about

Greece, Spain, Portugal... The crisis is far from over. Yes, but I

come back to this point, I keep repeating it. You are now the

Foreign Minister in this government. You go to the eurozone meetings, you

go to... I don't go to the eurozone itself. You are not the Finance

Minister but the point is you are part of a government which is now

committed to staying in the eurozone. The fact is that we must

fight with the best interests of the Finnish people everytime. What good

would it be the people to leave it on the floor? It is a question of

principle, though. There are many people in your party who are very

strong supporters of the idea of pushing for a referendum of

continued Finnish membership of the euro. Of course they want to get

out. What do you say to those members of your own party who are

pushing for a referendum on the euro? The majority of the party

elected me unanimously a few months ago, and they know that I am

defining and delivering a party programme. So that is the mainstream

of the party and that is how it should be carried out, and that is

how it functions. Not to be clear, as I understand it in the next few

weeks a Parliamentary debate will be held on whether to have a national

referendum on what they call Fexit, your exit from the eurozone. What is

your permission on that? That is the case, there is not that kind of deal

but it is guaranteed, if the majority of Parliament doesn't want

it, it doesn't exist. No, I understand that but you have an

important voice. Not just for your party but for the nation. And I want

to know what your opinion is today. Would Finland be better off outside

the eurozone? And would you, if they were to be a referendum would you

campaign to get out of the eurozone? This thing has a background. And the

background was that we were never allowed a referendum in the

eurozone, as Sweden did, as Denmark did. And that has a lot of people

feeling not well. Because we were never asked. And that is where it

comes from. And of course I said openly that I wouldn't have joined

the euro. But what is now needed, if you want to get rid of it and get

Fexit, you must have the majority of the people and the majority of the

Parliament to agree. And that is not the situation at the moment. Because

you are now inside government, and in the course of this interview you

have illustrated how to a certain extent you have had to modify some

of your language and some of your policy positions, what has happened

to all of the anger and resentment that you use the channel, and which

is still in Finland but which you are not channelling any because you

are now a big player inside the government. What has happened to

that anger, where has it gone? The anger is always there but our party

didn't grow out of anger. Our party did grow out of political patients

and political assessments. That is what we grew out of. And as I said,

we had a background from the Peasants Party, we were very

critical to communism and that was the mainstream and this background

of the party. We had all kinds of people, we were the second biggest

in the government at the last election, second the guest. But the

point is, looking at the most recent opinion polls, and I'm sure you look

at them more closely than I do, having got ready much 18% in the

last elections, you are now down to 10% or even lower. You have lost a

lot of support. And I put it to you that some of that support has moved

perhaps to the more extreme right. We see some phenomena in Finland

today which are very worrying, for examples are Soldiers of Odin

organisation. They have nothing to do with us. No, but the point is

that some people feel you have betrayed the cause of true Finn

nationalism by going over to them. We haven't betrayed anybody, not a

single one. There were some people in your party who you're fired, one

guy who said in your party who you're fired, one

guy who who used to be the deputy leader of your party, he says you

guillotined him. It was for his own decision. I don't think that's how

he felt about being guillotined. You must ask him. The serious point is,

this isn't just about Finland. Right across Europe there are dangerous,

alarming signs of radicalism and extremism on the far right. What do

you think is the best way to deal with that, including the Soldiers of

Odin inside Finland. First we must make a definition. The Finns Party

is not an extreme party. You cannot imagine that Finns Party would hold

a Deputy Prime Minister seat. And when we talk about these issues it

seems to be forgotten many times. The second biggest economic agenda,

education agenda, all kinds of these kinds of agendas, and when we

usually just talk about of these minorities, but I am heavily against

all kinds of violence, all kinds of malfeasance in human rights. Except

you did say earlier that everybody deserves a second chance, even those

who are stealing. I said in his case he earned a second chance but I

never, ever accept anything racist. And you cannot find a single quarter

for me saying for 40 years roughly in my political career that I have a

single racist thing ever. And I am the leader of the party. Yes, you

are. And a final point, which I think again has resonance not just

for Finland but for Europe, one of the leading political scientist in

the country says this. So far, for what has happened in Finland since

the 2015 election, it looks like it is possible to tame a populist

party. If they are in a minority position in a coalition government,

they have to make concessions. The sorts of concessions that make their

own supporters unhappy. That's the truth, isn't it? This is funny,

because I wrote my own thesis at the University of Helsinki 1988,

delivering the same kinds of stuff, what he says right now. You agree

with him? You have been tamed? Not tamed, but the situation has

changed. And then, when it has changed we must live in the world

we're living in. You don't like the word tamed. Of course, well, it is

unjust. Timo Soini, we have to end there, but thank you very much for

being on HARDtalk. OK, thank you.