Vladimir Chizhov, Russian Ambassador to the EU HARDtalk

I'm Stephen Sackur, welcome to HARDtalk. The United States is

eating up its military presence in Europe call Russian aggression.

Proof if any were needed that Vladimir Putin's muscular protection

of Russian power, from Ukraine to Syria, has sown seeds of alarm

across Europe and America. My guest today is Russia's ambassador to the

EU, at Vladimir Chizhov. Mr Putin says Russia is regaining respect as

a global superpower, but can the Kremlin sustain a long-term

confrontation with the West? Ambassador Vladimir Chizhov, welcome

to HARDtalk. Thank you. You began your diplomatic career back in the

error of the soviet union. Right now it must feel just like old times,

the Cold War is back? -- era. Actually not, the Cold War is not

back. That of course depends on the definition you put onto that

terminology. In my view, the Cold War was actually a confrontation

between two ideologists, primarily. There is no such confrontation

today. The fact that the West is beefing up its own imagination about

Russia's intention is a totally different thing. Russia does not

intend to pursue confrontation with the West. You make the point that

maybe ideology is absent in the way it was present during the Cold War.

You guys are not committed communist any more. The fact is, in terms of

the military stand-off, the hostility, the suspicion, the talk

of possible confrontation, we are back into that sort of era. And with

the US putting a new brigade of troops onto the eastern flank of

Nato, with your officials responding by saying that you will give, quote

unquote, an asymmetric response, it sounds dangerous and it sounds like

confrontation. Well, I think these efforts that you refer to buy the

West, the United States and some of their European allies, including the

UK, they are misplaced. I think you are looking in the wrong direction,

trying to find an enemy. If there is an enemy today, if -- is our common

enemy of international terrorism. It reared its ugly head a few days ago

here in Brussels. With all respect, that may be a common enemy, but

according to the United States you represent some sort of enemy, too. I

quote, this brigade detachment that is being sent to supplement US

forces in Europe, it is a direct response to, quote unquote, Russian

aggression. We are of course talking about the Ukraine. Fortunately

enough, the United States is not putting a brigade into the Ukraine

as yet. That would have been very confrontational. But I think there

is no evidence that Russia has made any aggressive moves in Ukraine or

against Ukraine. I don't know what you call the invasion of Crimea and

the subsequent annexation of Crimea, if not in aggression against the

government in Kiev? There was no annexation of Crimea, Russian troops

had been in Crimea for the last 250 years including on the basis of a

bilateral Russian Ukrainian treaty signed in 1997. So the Russian legal

base and contingents across Ukraine were there on a perfectly legal

basis. I think you are distorting the course of events, claiming there

was some sort of an invasion. I don't want to rehearse all the

arguments about Russia's role, not just in annex in Crimea against the

wishes of the Ukrainian government, but also in fanning the flames of an

armed rebellion in Eastern Ukraine, and all of the allegations about

Russia's involvement in that. Let us focus on the implications of the

perception in Europe that Vladimir Putin is engaging in a new round of

aggression. You know, as ambassador in the EU, that there is now, from

Scandinavia, through the Baltic states, Scandinavia and Poland and a

host of other countries, inside the EU and inside Nato, a real fear of

Vladimir Putin and his intentions. If there is any sign of the, which I

believe you are exaggerating, but even if there is, I think that is

really disappointing. I would point to be responsibility of the media,

including your own channel. I don't think that producing pseudo-

documentaries like the our world that BBC showed a few weeks ago is

in any way helpful to lay in those fears -- alleviating. A lot of

people about the propaganda machine works in Moscow and and wonder about

President Putin's determination to spoonfeed the Russian people a view

of what is happening, both in Ukraine and in Syria and the wider

world, which too many people simply distorts reality. In the view of

many other people, that is what the Western propaganda machine is doing,

distorting reality. Like claiming that Russia is the aggressor. Of

course, it leads to and is additionally fuelled by statements

coming from officials, both civilian and military, like one general who

said that Nato needs to return to U-2 reconnaissance flights over

Russian territory. I think that is a very dangerous development. In a

sense, that is what I want to get out. There is no point at sitting

here trading allegations about each other's media. What is really

important is what will happen on the ground. You sit in Brussels

representing Vladimir Putin and the Russian government. You must be

aware that because of the perceptions of Vladimir Putin and

Russia right now, the United States is more intent than ever in putting

this missile defence system across the eastern side of Nato. They have

ramped up troop numbers, there is now this new reassurance initiative

which means that there will be a new rapid deployment force on Nato's

eastern flank. I began talking about the Cold War, you denied it. But now

we seem to be agreeing that these actions suggest there is a long-term

confrontation at play? Yes, I will not claim that there is no, I would

say animosity, or no confrontational mood. Yes, there is. But again, I

think it is misplaced. I think that is not the direction we all should

be looking towards. So, I would suggest that we take a deep breath

and have a closer look at our mutual interest. And then we will see what

to do next. Political dialogue, in that sense, it is helpful. And you

have been referring to the United States a number of times, actually,

the dialogue that is currently maintained at the level of President

Putin and Obama, and between John Kerry and a quickie of state, who

talk on the phone on a weekly basis... You are a diplomat, you

talk about dialogue and mutual interests. I understand that, but in

the end, it has to get specific. Let's talk about the substance

behind the dialogue, let's talk about Ukraine. Russia has a choice

right now. You can play a role in the escalating the Russian crisis by

telling the separatists in Eastern Ukraine that they must accept a full

pullback of forces, they must accept regional elections that are

supervised under the Ukrainian government and they have to accept

that Ukrainian forces go back and police the border with Russia. If

your government is prepared to deal in that sort of substance, then of

course there can be a new dialogue. To put it squarely, the Minsk

agreement on Ukraine is squarely in Kiev's Court. None of the

obligations that Kiev and President Poroshenko agreed to have been the

field. Neither is there a law on special status of the dog plus

region, nor is there a law on amnesty or local elections. So, yes,

the situation is tense. Well... Let me finish. According to reports from

the OAC special monitoring machine, the number of special weapons which

are missing from the depots on the Ukrainian side of the Ukrainian army

is ten or 15 times greater than those of the dump last forces. The

OSCE pointed out that Russia still does not co-operate to give the OSCE

understanding what is happening in terms of resupply and cross-border

shipments. He also said that the drones used by the OSCE to try to

monitor events in Ukraine have been consistently blocked and jammed. He

left me in no doubt that he believes that is the responsibility of

Russia. That might be his point of view. You are just quoting him very

respectfully, so presumably you care about his point of view. What the

OSCE had asked for in terms of maintaining the Russian Ukrainian

border, that has been implemented. -- Donbass. No, no... Not to their

satisfaction, Mr Ambassador. It was in full accordance with all the

measures agreed with by the OAC. We need to see the baseline. The

baseline is that there are two parties to the Minsk agreement. One

is the Ukrainian government, the other is the authorities of the

Donbass republics. You say you are not a party to the conflict, but

both the US and the EU have identified you as a key player in

the conflict, with key responsibilities. That is precisely

why they have imposed sanctions on you would have now been renewed and

at least the summer of 2016. So, you are paying a price of your decisions

in the Ukraine, and it is a price that your economy can barely afford

to pay. Again, you are exaggerating. The Russian economy can survive

those unilateral restrictive measures which you referred to as

sanctions. What do you call them? I already said so. Unilateral

restrictive measures. Sanctions, according to international law, can

only be imposed by the UN Security Council. There is no other authority

to do that. They are costing your economy, your economy is in pretty

dire straits anyway because of the falling oil and gas prices,

according to the IMF they cost 1.5% of GDP every year. Your country is

already in recession, this magnifies it. Your own president told a

magazine in Germany that the financial restrictions in Russia

were having a very serious effect. Yes, I agree. But it is not

because... The negative effect on the economy, as you rightly say

yourself, it is primarily because of the fall in the world oil prices.

Primarily. These so-called sanctions are a contributing factor, there is

no doubt about that. But not to the extent that would bring the Russian

economy into the state of shutters as some politicians have been

referring. You say that from a comfortable

posting but the Russian people may see it differently. Real wages and

although more than 6%. In that sort of climate, seeing the sanctions

indefinitely continue because your government refuses to play ball with

the wishes of the international community, that is a political risk

Mr Putin has to accept? So far the popularity of President Putin and

his government have been soaring rocket high. We will have

Parliamentary elections in September. That is close enough and

then you will see what the Russian electorate really thinks. Let's talk

about Syria as well. When we talk about the way Mr Putin is

determined, in his view, to ensure Russian interests projected with

muscular strength of the world stage, we have to talk about Syria

as well as Ukraine. You're bombing campaign lasted for six months,

Independent human rights group reckon 2000 civilians were killed.

Is it really over or not? The bulk of it is over. The bulk of the

Russian air force contingent has been pulled out. Some forces have

remained and they actually assisted the Syrian army in liberating

Elmira, the well-known heritage site. -- Palmyra. Unfortunately it

has not been welcomed by some Western countries, including the UK.

I think what has been said about it by the UK Foreign Secretary is not

worth being repeated. Let me focus on something slightly different sad

by your ally, President Assad. He said... Just a few weeks ago... His

intention was to take back the whole country without hesitation. He said

it would take a long time and involve a heavy price. Is his

intention Russia's desire also? The Syrian government position... And I

do not want to sound like an advocate for President Assad. My

country... You refer to him as a Russian ally, we have been doing

what we were doing in Syria at his request, indeed, but we are not in a

military alliance. In any case,... Lets keep this simple. Yes. Do you

believe that President Assad, with his military, can take back every

inch of territorial and is that what Russia wants? Certainly that is not

what Russia wants. Russia's goals and be made open and transparent -

the Sio political solution in Syria and that is something that President

Assad has publicly committed himself to. The talks that are going on in

Geneva, the cause of the progressive nation of certain opposition forces

and certain members of... One member of the International Syria and

support group -- procrastination. They have created a framework for

seeking political solution which would meet the danger of all Syrian

people, including the Kurds kill unfortunately are not there at the

negotiating table. Do you want to see a new constitution and a

transitional political arrangement which ruled ultimately see in the

medium to long-term, the end of President Assad? Yes. A new

constitution, definitely. A political process, yes. What the

outcome of the political process will be is not for you or me to

decide, it is up to the Syrian people. They will have elections and

those elections will bring the results which will reflect the will

of the Syrian people. The UK about Russia's international standing is

when it comes Russia's recognition and adherence to international norms

when it comes to the laws of war is an humanitarianism. He care how

Russia is perceived in the world? Of course. -- do you care. Actually

that is part of my job and I will add to that, I care much more than

some Western governments, including your care about their image of

recognising Kosovo. The secretary whose words you said were not worth

repeating, said Russia deliberately targeted schools, hospitals and

emergency rescue workers. His words were backed by the testimony of

theory and is on the ground and a number of Independent human rights

groups. -- Syrians. When such allegations are made, whoever makes

them, they should be substantiated by evidence. That has not been the

case regarding our actions in Syria so these are just words. Well, they

are not just words because I have got here, in the papers in front of

me, testimony from doctors, towns, describing how Russian bombers

attacked hospitals, electricity, water supplies, not once but coming

back and attacking rescuers. Well, that... If there is such evidence,

of course, it should be processed in due course accordingly. There have

been other cases... Does it worry you personally when you hear things

like that? Of course, it worries me. These allegations are need to be

checked and double checked. If they are true, Russia should be

punished, should have a? Well... Tell me, should the US be published

full punished for blowing up a Doctors without Borders hospital?

But should Russia be punished if these allegations are true? If these

allegations, hypothetically, are true, they should be investigated.

It is not up to me or you to draw conclusions. There is a proper

Independent investigation. You obviously do not want to answer that

question, let me ask you one more. In 2000, President Putin said I

cannot imagine my country isolated Rocky Europe. We are part of

European culture. What on earth happened to Putin's mindset now? --

isolated from Europe. Am sure that is his mindset today. I haven't

picked his brain of course what Russia has traditionally been part

and parcel of what we all call European civilisation. Actually, one

of the pillars of European civilisation. ... You do not feel in

any way isolated from Europe and European values today? Certainly

not. I will say... You know, from the point of view of the geo-

strategy, Russia cannot be isolated from any direction but, in terms of

values, in terms of civilisational ties, of course, Russia remains part

of the European civilisation. Perhaps it is not the way some

people in the West would like to see Russia but that is their problem.

Ambassador, Vladimir Chizhov, a thank you very much indeed for being

on HARDtalk. Thank you.