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Yet again, Pakistan stands accused of playing a double game on | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
confronting it at home, using it as a foreign policy tool in | :00:14. | :00:20. | |
After a deadly Taliban attack in Kabul just days ago, the Afghan | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
president demanded that Islamabad stop talking of peace negotiations | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
and instead focus on eliminating Taliban havens inside Pakistan. | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
My guest today is former Pakistani foreign minister Hina Rabbani Khar. | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
Is Pakistan addicted to the double game? | :00:43. | :01:14. | |
Hina Rabbani Khar, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
Pleasure to be here. I think it is fair to say that Pakistan is | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
distrusted by its neighbours, Afghanistan and India. Distrusted | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
also in Washington. Do you think that distrust is merited? Obviously | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
not. I mean, you would use the word discredited, I would use the word | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
scapegoated. I think the country has been scapegoated for a war that has | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
not delivered the results that the international community expected, | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
and there has to be somebody blamed. Early on, but even early on, it is | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
interesting, because I recently met someone who served as CIA acting | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
director and asked him how were relations during his time? This is a | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
person associated since 2005, and he said Pakistan happened to be our | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
best possible ally and we had benefited more from our | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
collaboration and cooperation with your intelligence agency than any | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
other in the world. I don't want to go into details of the long | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
conversation we had as to what might have happened, but in my view, and | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
having served as Pakistan Foreign Minister drink this difficult times, | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
it is a war that did not deliver the results we wanted. Pakistan has its | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
own, located situation. I am always amazed and surprised how Pakistan is | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
expected to, and solve other problems before its own -- | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
complicated. If I may, the version of offends you recounted does not | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
match what I hear from Washington or India or Pakistan. If we stick with | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
Washington, when you took over as Foreign Minister in 2011, these were | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
the words that must be ringing in your ears. Hillary Clinton saying | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
you cannot keep snakes, into was referring to the Taliban, in your | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
backyard, and expect them to only by your neighbours. That is the view | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
Washington has of Pakistan. You keep snakes in your backyard. In 2011, | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
that is exactly the view Bill Clinton and perhaps the entire | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
Western establishment had -- Hillary Clinton. It is still be filling in | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
Washington today. I figure it is different, but unfortunately the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
problem is far too complex to solve in 30 minutes. All of the patients | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
the West is hard for the realities of the region where I come from, if | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
you give me maybe two minutes to just say the reality is that | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
Pakistan has been paying close to about 3 million Afghan refugees | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
since the last three decades. Britain was recently deciding to | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
take 20,000 refugees from Syria in a matter of five years, that is about | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
8000 a year or less. We have been playing host to these many refugees, | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
right? Refugees and not the problem, it is the Taliban leadership who | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
have used your soil as a safe haven for years. With respect, as Foreign | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
Minister, you denied an -- and offers skated. We had a senior | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
Pakistani official for the first time say it is true, they are now so | :04:35. | :04:42. | |
and they even received medical treatment. That gives us some of | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
which over them, but the truth is you don't use that the rich. I think | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
that would be completely a misrepresentation of how things are | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
on the ground. I need to finish my two minutes to make the point that | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
with 3 million in Pakistan, it is virtually impossible for a country | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
with the paraphernalia that Pakistan has, complete control over who is | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
entering and exiting. I will give you two examples. We wanted that | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
control. We put the biometric system on our borders. On a single border | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
post, 60,000 Pakistanis and Afghans cross that border post and checked | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
without passports and visas every day. Do you expect us to have the | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
wherewithal to find out how many of them are Taliban or not? I would not | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
be little the logistical problems you are talking about the huge | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
refugee problem Pakistan has faced. I want to get to some honesty about | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
the realities of when you were Foreign Minister and today. Symbol | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
question, yes or no. When you were Foreign Minister, did you know you | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
Taliban leadership was using safe haven in Pakistan and controlling | :05:55. | :06:03. | |
operations inside Afghanistan? I forget is impossible to be | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
simplistic. It is unfair to the realities to be that simply stick. | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
Why are senior officials now admitting it? -- simply stick. What | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
they are an outing is not that different from what we were an | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
outing. There are not only two factions of the Taliban but more | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
than two factions. There is a faction that has been killing people | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
and recruiting people in Pakistan the last many years. As far as | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
Pakistan is concerned, I can tell you this is absolutely my personal | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
view, and a few that the Pakistani establishment in government has come | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
too many years back, anyone who uses violence against anyone within | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
Pakistan or outside Pakistan is a terrorist. That is the explanation. | :06:53. | :07:01. | |
They asked before a second? -- may I introduce for a second? We have a | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
limited amount of time. President President Mack as a result of the | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
recent terror attacks which killed more than 60 people in a security | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
service wielding -- Asif Ali Zardari, Pakistan has two. This idea | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
of dropping this idea of arranging negotiations with the Taliban. The | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
Pakistani government need to eliminate the Taliban, who are | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
inside Pakistan. That is the only way to deliver 's peace and | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
security. Is Pakistan preferred to do that -- repaired to do that? Once | :07:37. | :07:45. | |
President Asif Ali Zardari decides what it wants to do once and for | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
all, does he want Pakistan to be a piece builder -- please builder, | :07:50. | :08:03. | |
just now Mack? Are you prepared to launch an offensive against the | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
Taliban? He would be well advised to be told it is Pakistan's job to | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
first eliminate terrorists who are a threat to Pakistani civilians... You | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
have a different idea. Those who work in India or Afghanistan are | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
something else compared to those who work in Pakistan? That would be... | :08:24. | :08:32. | |
That I want to clarify if you would give me a moment. I need to ask a | :08:33. | :08:41. | |
question in response to that, how do you first decide to ensure the | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
safety and security of your own civilians, or use of the UK pay | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
Minister's job was to listen to what is a threat to France. The exact | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
Prime Minister. It is important that we are able to understand that | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
Pakistan's first responsibility is to its own citizens. I as the saying | :09:01. | :09:12. | |
is a lot of authority. Pakistan is putting an operation. Anyone using | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
violence is as much a threat to Pakistan as anyone who uses it | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
against the sun. -- Pakistan. Exporting violence, the Pakistanis | :09:25. | :09:32. | |
have eroded their own security, it has been said. They are not separate | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
the connected. It was said they have undermined their international | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
credibility and undermined their economic well-being. He said that | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
just before or just after you came into the Foreign Ministry. Nothing | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
has changed. A lot has changed. I don't think that is looking at what | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
has happened in Pakistan and following what Pakistan has been | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
doing. A massive operation has been launched. Soldiers are dying. This | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
has been going on for years. Let's talk internal staff. In terms of the | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
terror threat, the events we outside of Pakistan, such as the horrible | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
school attack, and then recently the Lahore attack where civilians and | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
many Christians but many others too were targeted at Easter just this | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
last is. There are hundreds of people dying as a result of your | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
state's failure to get on top of the violent extremists inside your own | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
country. I am always impressed with how quick you article as a failure. | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
The task at hand is very large. -- you are to call us. I am always | :10:41. | :10:48. | |
excepting the fact that there are some unintended consequences of | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
people trained on our soil who were trained with funding from other | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
countries, it left a deep void. There was no exit strategy. For us | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
there was no exit strategy. That has brought the threat of terrorism to | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
Pakistani soil. It is a living thread. To deny the fact that since | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
2014, and before that in 2008, the incidence of terrorism have not | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
decreased. It is a luxury you might be able to afford, but I can't deny | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
that. The terrorist incidents in Pakistan have actually reduced by | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
50%. That means a lot. That means hundreds more Pakistanis are living | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
today and not dying because of terrorism as opposed to before. If | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
you want to say that is nothing, to me that is a bot. My civilians being | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
able to live. You cannot deny what this war has done to extremism and | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
to propel extremists out of Pakistan. The way drone strikes were | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
used in Pakistani territory with or without our government acquiescence | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
has a lot to do with its rivers and... I did want to talk briefly | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
about joint strikes. You decide with or without Pakistani acquiescence. | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
-- you just said. There are CIA Zika papers that show there was | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
cooperation between the American CIA and the Pakistani government on the | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
targeting, the use of these trends. You were Foreign Minister. Are you | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
now prepared to tell the truth and say yes, we worked with the | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
Americans on the joins. Yes, but I am prepared to tell the truth, not | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
what you want me to say. Between 2011 and 2013, there was no copper | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
operation between Pakistan and America, because the relationship | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
had already gone sour. For six months, the US refused to apologise. | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
These are the realities we were living in. The killing of a summer | :12:56. | :13:06. | |
Bin Laden. I admit as president Asif Ali Zardari has admitted in his | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
memoirs and later in interviews that the US and Pakistan were cooperating | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
on who to strike. That is interesting. You are saying by the | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
time I came into power and was Foreign Minister, our relationship | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
with the US was fundamentally different. It was. You taught at the | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
time about wanting to move away from a strong and dependent relationship | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
in the United States and wanted to focus on the neighbourhood and on | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
the region, India and Afghanistan, developing ties with them. I | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
remember you saying that. Where are we today? The Pakistani government | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
is still hoping to receive eight F-16 fighter jets from the United | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
States were stuck the Pakistani government in the last five or six | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
years has received something like $8 billion of US aid and development | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
assistance. Is the Pakistani government keen on a partnership | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
with the United States or not? I am confused. | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
It wants a realistic expectation of and with the United States. | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
Historically, Pakistan has had unrealistic expectations of the US | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
and I will say that on your show as well. Pakistan has wanted to solve | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
regional problems via Washington or London, not inculcating relations it | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
should in the region. As you have in the EU et cetera. We have tried to | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
change that. For that, if there is a record of that, we have tried to | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
normalise trading relations with India, which come until our time, | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
was considered something which would only happen if it came from India. | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
We have tried to change it. To warm up the relationship without solving | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
Kashmir. That has failed. India is accusing you, if I can save... | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
(CROSSTALK). Jumping to failure is interesting. I look at the facts. | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
Earlier this year there was a terror attack on an air base in India which | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
India land on Pakistan as a result... Not on the state but on | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
elements within Pakistan. Let me tell you where the success is. What | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
did Pakistan do? The old Pakistan would say it did not happen and | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
India is making this up against Pakistan. The new Pakistan says if | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
there is evidence proving people inside Pakistan used... Used | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
wherewithal to do this, share with us and we will be part of the | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
investigation. The whole investigation happened, Pakistani | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
people went through the entire records, so things have changed. You | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
said two interesting things after the horrible school attack at the | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
end of 2014. You are no longer Foreign Minister. You were still a | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
political player. An important voice in their people's party. You said | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
the intelligence architecture of this country is archaic and must be | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
changed. You also said the Madras, the religious schools which have | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
flourished for far too long, they must impart the real peaceful | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
teachings of Islam or if they cannot, will not, they must be | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
closed down. What has changed? I am not in government to answer that | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
question as I could if I was in government, but clearly post the | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
Army Public School attack, the architecture as it appears mightn't | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
have changed and it needs to change. It doesn't seem to have changed at | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
all to an outsider like me. And to me to be fair. We have not achieved | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
what I had put out as a way forward at all. The intelligence agencies | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
are probably now speaking to each other more than they have before, | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
which is not great. I won't say we deserve brownie points. On the | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
Madras, it has been a serious problem. Funded by Saudi Arabia, | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
those who want to encourage that brand of divisive Islam. And that | :17:13. | :17:21. | |
has not done us any favours -- Madrasses. I will not defend it. The | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
state has to be more in control of knowledge which is imparted to | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
children than it is today. Why has the state failed for so many years | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
to listen to people outside who have delivered that message? I think the | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
state's inability to be able to react to so many challenges is | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
limited. Then Uvini feel like you are saying, you know what, the state | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
is dysfunctional to the point of being a failed state. How many times | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
can you see these problems are to be before...? The fact is, I don't | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
think we need to explain that in a developing country the state | :18:02. | :18:03. | |
structures are very different to those in yours and even in your | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
country, sometimes dealing with challenges like this is an uphill | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
task. I won't try to justify it here, I won't try to paint with a | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
happy brush the reality of the state. Understand, the civilian | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
architecture has not been there for a long time. Here is what you said | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
about that in December 2015 and I wonder if it still applies and how | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
worried we should be. The military still plays a bloated role in | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
Pakistan's politics. You said the Prime Minister has much less freedom | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
than he ought to have. Again, from my vantage point, I need to look at | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
the trajectory my country is following. I need to see the | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
civilian role and responsibilities are being taken more than they were | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
ten years back. From that point of view I think the fact we have had | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
two democratic regimes, one after the other, institutions are being | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
built. That civilian role... Civilians are taking responsibility. | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
To what extent is that rule and roll real or to what extent is there, to | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
coin a phrase often used in Turkey, still a deep state behind the | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
elected politicians which is really making key decisions when it comes | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
to all we have discussed today, international relations and national | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
security? -- role. No more than they have done in the US. Believe me, I | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
thought they were a country where the military also had if not a | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
bloated role, even a bigger role. You think in the United of America, | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
the military runs the system more thoroughly than it does in Pakistan? | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
Yes. Equally. That is an extraordinary thing to say. The | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
overall establishment, including the military in the United States of | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
America, has a huge role to play. And I can tell you, whoever is | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
president of the US has little to do with US policy in terms of War and | :20:00. | :20:09. | |
peace. -- war. That is a really interesting insight into the way | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
it... I guess you are part of the Pakistani establishment and the way | :20:15. | :20:16. | |
you think. Let me talk more about the establishment. Recent times, the | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
Pakistani media has been full of stories coming out of the Panama | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
Papers. Revelations about offshore tax havens held by many powerful | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
people, including powerful people in Pakistan. The family of the Prime | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
Minister, associates of Benazir Bhutto, Benazir Bhutto herself in | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
2001 had some connection with an offshore account. There is cynicism | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
about the level of corruption inside the elite. Do you understand that? | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
Of course I understand. It is a realistic and a real and | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
well-deserved sense within the Pakistani people. Because, you know, | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
we haven't managed this country as well as we should have. And I think | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
all of these things will bring in much more transparency within how we | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
govern, and this is a process all countries have to follow. | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
Unfortunately, in cases of countries like Pakistan, these forces have not | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
been given the time I typically a country like yours or a European | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
country would have gotten to reach the point because state structures | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
have not developed the way they should have. It is interesting that | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
you said we, are you speaking on the Pakistani elite? Re-buy not know, | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
the audience, but your father was a leading politician, he had a seat in | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
parliament, and then when the rules changed and could not sit because he | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
did not have a university place, the seat was granted to you -- we might. | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
That seems to be symbolic of the dynastic, feudal nature of politics | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
which you would perhaps agree with me needs to change. Absolutely. It | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
is changing. With respect, your foreign mill a star at 34, you | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
represent the success of the old elite -- Foreign Minister. My family | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
name is much more well-known because of my uncle, who could not win an | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
election for the last 35 years, as a poster my father, who works for the | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
people and is therefore elected. He does work for it. It is | :22:29. | :22:30. | |
interesting, when people act as if, just because of my name, my family | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
name is more well-known because of an uncle who served as governor in | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
Punjab, who has not got elected into any five years. You won't like it | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
but I will quote you another member of the dynastic tradition who is | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
self-aware. Making someone like Miss Khar send a message to young people | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
that the only way into politics in Pakistan is through families. I come | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
back to this point, if Pakistan is to change on many different levels, | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
that has to be part of the change. That change cannot be enforced or | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
just sort of brought within years. It will take a few years, perhaps a | :23:09. | :23:15. | |
few decades. What is the state doing to inculcate that change or to bring | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
that change? It is reserving 30% of parliamentary seats for women who | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
don't come from elite families like mine but average backgrounds as | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
nominated by political parties. The state is insuring 10% of | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
administration posts are given to women. They don't have to come from | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
an elitist background like mine but from normal, average, you know, | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
middle-class type of backgrounds. This is the role the state is | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
playing to be able to make sure that every woman gets a chance. I except | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
the fact that I come from a very privileged... I would not call it | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
elitist but from a privileged background. I except the fact I came | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
into politics because of who my father was. I accept all about. I | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
say that does not deny the fact that things are changing in Pakistan -- | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
that. With that message we have to end, but Hina Rabbani Khar, thank | :24:06. | :24:07. | |
you so much for being on HARDtalk. | :24:08. | :24:13. |