Rachel Dolezal - Civil Rights Activist HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. What gives us our sense of

who we are? Well, our upbringing, our communities both have a huge

impact, but the most basic pillars of identity we tend to regard as

immutable - our gender, our race. At least, most of us do. But not my

guest today. As part of the BBC's special identity season, she's

Rachel Dolezal, the ostensibly black American human rights activist,

whose life unravelled last year when it turned out she was the daughter

of white parents. Is our racial identity something we can define for

ourselves? Rachel Dolezal, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you. Let's begin with the here and now. You have been through the

most tumultuous, difficult year. You have, in certain sections of the

American media, being vilified, you've lost friends - just explain

to me what life is like for you today? Well, certainly, it is

different than it was a year ago, the same time. It's different in

that I'm not able to do the same work that I was doing, which was

very active in racial and social justice work with NAACP, with the

police ombudsman commission. And to remind people who don't know, you

were president of the Spokane Washington State chapter of the

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, it

was an important position. Right. Absolutely at the centre of local

civil rights issues? Right. And in an unpaid position, along with the

other unpaid position I was in over at the time was the chair of the

police ombudsman commission for the city, for police accountability and

transparency. Which is, again, another national civil rights issue

going on in America. And my other two jobs, the ones that were paid,

were being a professor of black studies at the Eastern Washington

University Africana programme, and also I was writing for The Inlander.

And you lost all those positions, one way or another you lost them

this all? Right. And how do you make money today? To be quite honest, I'm

running right up to the end of my unemployment, and have just secured

a book deal so I will be writing through the summer for that but it

has been very tight circumstances financially for the last year. For

an outsider like me, it seems, in a sense, straightforward. You lost all

those positions and you ran into a storm of controversy because you had

passed yourself off as something you were not - that is, a black American

woman activist, when, obviously, you were a woman activist but it seems

you weren't black in the way people thought you were. Well, I guess some

people treated June --ed the media expose about my identity, a big

frenzy, as like an outing - like, I was outed as a white woman.

Personally, how I experienced it was more that it wasn't a coming out, it

was being put back in the closet, only a closet that has glass walls.

I mean, really, it was being told - the world being told that I was

something that I'm not, that I don't identify as. So, uhm, I felt like it

was really not the entire world's business who my biological parents

were or how I was born or what my whole childhood story was. But I

guess the point was, and you outline them in the posts you have, an

academic study of race issues, you had those posts and were appointed

to them on the basis that you were a black American. But then, you know,

pictures came out of... Well, not necessarily. I mean, you know, for

example, there's no qualification for the NAACP that you have to be

black in order to be president of a NAACP chapter and there's not an

application - it is an elected office. I guess, no, obviously it's

true, there's no requirement that you have to be, but your back story

and the way you presented yourself on social media and everything else

suggested that you were sort of biologically black, you know. You

presented pictures of a man who you described as your father, who was a

black individual. You presented pictures of your son, you said he

was your son, and he was clearly a black young man. But he wasn't your

biological son as it turned out. I mean, these, to many people, seemed

like deceptions. Right, I understand that that's how it seemed to people.

But I - I don't believe that those actually were presented in a way -

you know, I regret that my story was handled in a way that created a

larger misunderstanding about who I really am as a person. And, yes, I

still do have a father figure who is not biologically my father, but I

call him "Dad", and my son, you know, still is my son, and I have

documentation of having full custody of him and legally how that came

about... Legally, I know you have full custody of him, but... Right.

.. He in fact was the adopted brother of yours, he was adopted by

your white parents. As an infant. That's right. He's my son. That

makes sense to you? He's my son. Yeah I mean, biological or not, he's

my son. People, including me, of course, researching this, people

have seen the pictures of you as a girl, you know, a blonde, Montana

girl. Your parents say, you know, "We're completely of European stock,

Czech and German stock". Explain to me, how as a girl and a young woman,

you became so sure that your self-perception, your identity, was

that of a black person? Well, it's... It's really something that's

always been with me. From as early as I can remember, I saw myself as

black. And I think that some people still are perpetuating black as

under kind of a colonnial definition of something that is only racialised

physical features, but with regard to the larger, broader definition of

"Black" being a state of mind or "White" being a state of mind, or

philosophy, culture, all of these things kind of interacting, this is

how I saw myself as a young girl, this is kind of always something

that has resonated with me and nurtured me and so ... But if - if

black is a state of mind in your view, I'm wondering why it was so

important for you, as you grew up into womanhood, that you appeared to

work very hard in terms of physical appearance to promote certain, you

know, aspects of your appearance that made it seem you were more

African American. I mean, I'm thinking of the braided hair, I'm

thinking of the colouring, I think, perhaps, it was spray tan, I don't

know what it was, but you physically changed from when you were much

younger and I'm wondering, if it's all about a state of mind, why you

needed to do that? Well, what anybody else needs to do is up to

them, but why I do my hair how I do my hair is because I've done black

hair for 20 years. I love textured hair. I love to braid. And so, you

know, over the last couple of decades, that's, uhm, how I feel

most beautiful. Did it worry you that you knew some people were being

misled by things you were saying and doing? You know, they clearly

believed you were African American in extraction and you were not, and

you didn't correct them. I mean, did you ever feel you ought to? Did you

ever feel awkward about what was going on, as your life developed and

more and more people assumed you were something you were not? Well,

again, assuming that I'm something that I'm not - I mean, I do identify

as black, so it didn't bother me that people saw me as black. I

really do think that, when it comes down to it at the end of the day, we

all should be free to be exactly who we are, and when it comes to

identity, that's a very personal experience. I'm just wondering, it's

such an interesting phrase, "I identified as black, I felt black".

I mean, if I'm just thinking of myself, obviously, I live in the UK,

not in the United States, it's somewhat different, but if I were to

say to myself, "I identify as white", I wouldn't really know what

I meant by that. It's such a broad and general thing to say, I don't

know what it would mean. What does it mean to you to say, "I identified

as black"? Right. Well, for me, blackness is not, again, reduced to

racialised physical features. It has to do with knowing your belonging -

my belonging within the pan-African diaspora and representing

psychological decolonnialisation of the mind as well as acknowledging

and embodying common African history and an SESry. So, in that sense you

are saying all of us - because humanity is believed to have

originated, what, in east Africa, you're saying, "I feel that

resonance, that connection to Africa", even though... Well,

eventually, we all go back to a black mother, if we believe science

to be true that we all came out of the African continent. Right, so you

do feel to be African diaspora. I mean, I've never thought that way, I

guess I self-identify as white, but you feel that Africanness, do you?

Absolutely. I mean, in the last several hundred years there has been

a great deal of oppression surrounding the behaviour of

classification with regard to race and even the definition of a race as

a world view and so I think that that particular mindset of some

groups being superior, inferior and classification for administrative

purposes and for social purposes has become very painful, you know,

there's a very - several hundred years of a very painful history with

regards to that. So - but at the end of the day, science has proven over

and over again that there is no biological premise or basis for

race. So, you know, what do we have then? We have kind of an imperative

to do difference differently. You know, if we're going to keep

grouping people, then, you know, what are we grouping them for? Are

we grouping individuals into categories where there's, like,

cultural bonding or language similarity or, you know, what are we

doing? Are we doing to actually leverage power and priflg all over

again? -- privilege all over again, like the colonnial era, like u --

eugenics. You've clearly thought about this a lot and very hard, but

does it bother you that so many black activists and even friends of

your in the civil rights community, academics, simply don't buy your

explanation for your behaviours and your feelings? I will just quote

one, Gary Young, he is a leading black writer and commentator in the

UK but has lived a lot of his life in the United States. He has thought

a lot about your situation and says, "Rachel is a white woman who

identifies closely with the black community, but that does not make

her black". And I guess a lot of people would feel the same? Well, I

think people are weighing in on this on both sides. So some people are

saying, you know, kind of in support and solidarity, we understand that

this is actually innate, this is who she is. And then there are other

people saying, that this is actually not who she is and kind of demanding

that I somehow re-classify myself or change my identity. I guess what

he's saying, in a way, is this. That, you know, given from a very

young age our affinity with the black community, your care for

issues of civil rights, your perception that many black Americans

were disadvantaged and your desire to work with those communities to

raise them up, all of that people can understand very clearly. But a

lot of other people identifying themselves as white people feel the

same way and commit themselves to working with the black community,

living in the black community, maybe some marrying black men, as, indeed,

you did - but they don't feel that they have to present themselves as

black. That's the step you took that others who feel the same way as you

don't take. And I think everybody has the right to be exactly who they

are and so I'm not - I don't think that one individual's story needs to

be copied and pasted on to everybody else. So I'm not saying that there

aren't white mothers that, you know, have successfully raised black kids,

or that there are no white activists that have done important work, in

fact the NAACP was founded by a majority of white -identifying

individuals in the United States. So, uhm - but this is who I am. This

is how I feel most beautiful, wearing my hair, this is who I

identify to be on a very deep, core level. And I think, in as much as it

wouldn't be my place to say what somebody else should do, I find it

odd that people that don't know me... But does it upset you that a

lot of people who have been most critical of you have been black

Americans? Actually, I don't know that that's true. Well... There have

been some critical black Americans, but there have also been some... Who

I hear from with the most hate is, you know, white supremacy groups. So

there are a lot of ... Uhm, white individuals who are very angry and

feel that I have somehow been a traitor from -- from the black

community, one thing that I do really hear that bothers me is that

somehow I am, you know, the face of white privilege and ... Well, what

they say - they say a couple of things that seem to me important.

One is - and we'll get to the privilege point in a second, but one

thing they say which revives the trope of the black face, white

people blacking up in some sense to entertain or to mock the black

experience - some black people say that there's something deeply

uncomfortable about what you do because, by using colouring and

presenting with the hair, which to most people looks like a style that

is usuallily adopted by black people, they see a connection to

that horrible past. I understand that there is an

incredibly painful history with But I do not dress in black face.

That was some of the first statement is ever made in the press, that this

was a mockery or whatever. But, black face is something that is used

to make fun of, to belittle, to drive that pain and historical

oppression deeper. That is not, it doesn't in any way connect with

the... It must hurt you when you read this. Absolutely. There is

plenty of pain to go around. There is a lot of pain from where those

statements are coming from. I want to acknowledge that paying because I

might have my own personal pain, but the larger history of cultural

appropriation and mockery and black face, I spent hundreds of hours

doing other black women's care. Brady and styling... -- hair --

braiding. There is a fundamental difference because you are white and

you can make the choice to be black. The editor of union Station magazine

wrote about your case and she said, to believe that one can transfer 1's

identity in this way is eight privilege, maybe even the highest

manifestation of white privilege. The ability to accept

marginalisation, to take on the identity of blackness, without truly

living the burdens of it and always knowing that you could escape it on

a whim, that is not a true transition to blackness. Well, once

again, I regret that people don't understand what I've lived. I have

taken the good with the bad. Meaning that I have taken half the salary of

a someone who had the exact same job description, the man before me

described me as a college girl and I took half the salary for the same

job. Cops have marked black on my traffic tickets. There are ways in

which I have experienced racism being seen. Identity is not just

what box a cheque or how I self identify, it is also based on power

and privilege dynamics, which people are acting out. There are ways in

which I have been treated by others who see me as black, and I haven't,

in those cases, I didn't interrupt the processes and say excuse me, I

want to rent an apartment so why will be whiter. I ... You don't say,

hold on, I am white. Exactly. I have raised my children to be committed

to fight for total freedom and justice and equality for black

people around the world. I think that within the All Black, for me to

then somehow be seen as the face of white privilege is very painful. It

is not representative of my life and when it comes to... I think your

question was twofold. There is my experience but there is also the

experience of people who are assuming... It was about the

privilege of choice. There is a long history of passing, which is

different in identifying hours. There is a long history of lack

people passing for white in America in order to... Get on. Yes, survive.

I think there is a range of light-skinned privilege. You could

say that as far as having the choice. I. You because we are almost

at a time. Some personal questions. Do you have any regrets about what

you've done? I am thinking particularly about the fact that you

are estranged from your biological white parents. Some of your adoptive

siblings who are black, they say they don't understand what you have

done. Do you have regrets on a personal basis? As far as, do I

regret... The pain that I imagine it has caused to your parents? I am not

going to talk about my parents. That's just not a subject that I

talk about. It is personal and I'm not going to talk about that. I will

say that I do regret any pain that it has caused anybody else, all

people feel like it has caused. I feel like a lot of that pain is

based on misunderstanding with regards to some of the family

dynamics -- or. Family dynamics have sometimes created those divisions,

those are deeply personal and something that maybe in time...

There is a lot of pain there. They will become more understood, but it

is nobody 's business what has splintered the family apart. But a

lot of pain? Yes, there is a lot of pain. Today, are you truly

comfortable in your own skin? I am comfortable being who I am, I am not

sure that the world is comfortable with that yet. Time will tell if we

can reconcile how I identify and how people see who I am. Rachel Dolezal,

thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.